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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de> on 2011/11/16 15:32:38 UTC
[OT] Hoover is not an adjective, was: Re: [VOTE] Release Apache opennlp-1.5.2-incubating-rc5
On 15/11/11 03:22, Benson Margulies wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:20 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 15 November 2011 02:12, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That page is very misleading, and there was a long discussion of this
>>> topic elsewhere.
>>>
>>> Look at the example just above the requirement:
>>>
>>> "The Apache Xerces XML parsing library is easily configurable and
>>> compliant with current standards"
>>>
>>> Yes, in some sense, Xerces is an adjective there, but really what the
>>> senator is trying to say is to construct a particular noun phrase.
>>
>> AIUI, trademarks need to be used as if they are adjectives.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> The Hoover vacuum cleaner is versatile
>> NOT
>> The Hoover is a versatile vacuum cleaner
>
> I think I've just discovered that I'm too tired to type. I agree:
> that's an adjective. However, it's really very hard to make sense of
> the requirement without the example, either what you just sent or
> what's on the page.
>
See subject line.
Feel free to completely ignore this, but the linguist in me
couldn't let this go ;-). You can verify this by trying to
stick another adjective between Hoover and the rest. Just
like "car" in "car door" is not an adjective (compare "green
car door" vs. "car green door"), Hoover is not an adjective
in "Hoover vacuum cleaner" (and neither is vacuum).
This might explain why people in a project like OpenNLP are
confused by that sentence on the trademarks page.
--Thilo
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Re: [OT] Hoover is not an adjective, was: Re: [VOTE] Release Apache
opennlp-1.5.2-incubating-rc5
Posted by Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de>.
On 16/11/11 16:39, sebb wrote:
> On 16 November 2011 14:32, Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> On 15/11/11 03:22, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:20 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 15 November 2011 02:12, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> That page is very misleading, and there was a long discussion of this
>>>>> topic elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look at the example just above the requirement:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Apache Xerces XML parsing library is easily configurable and
>>>>> compliant with current standards"
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, in some sense, Xerces is an adjective there, but really what the
>>>>> senator is trying to say is to construct a particular noun phrase.
>>>>
>>>> AIUI, trademarks need to be used as if they are adjectives.
>>>>
>>>> For example:
>>>>
>>>> The Hoover vacuum cleaner is versatile
>>>> NOT
>>>> The Hoover is a versatile vacuum cleaner
>>>
>>> I think I've just discovered that I'm too tired to type. I agree:
>>> that's an adjective. However, it's really very hard to make sense of
>>> the requirement without the example, either what you just sent or
>>> what's on the page.
>>>
>>
>> See subject line.
>>
>> Feel free to completely ignore this, but the linguist in me
>> couldn't let this go ;-). You can verify this by trying to
>> stick another adjective between Hoover and the rest. Just
>> like "car" in "car door" is not an adjective (compare "green
>> car door" vs. "car green door"), Hoover is not an adjective
>> in "Hoover vacuum cleaner" (and neither is vacuum).
>
> Not sure possible word order is relevant/conclusive.
It's called a distributional test and it's at least
a pretty good indication.
>
>> This might explain why people in a project like OpenNLP are
>> confused by that sentence on the trademarks page.
>
> The point is that the mark must be *used as* an adjective.
A noun is a noun is a noun.
>
> I think this was previously called an adjectival noun, it now seems to
> be called "noun adjunct":
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_adjunct
>
> What do you suggest the trademarks page should say in order to make it clearer?
I don't know, I admit I don't really understand what it is
supposed to mean. The page seems to contradict itself just
a few lines below where it says:
the Apache Foo project releases a software product called Apache Foo
If I understand this right, "Apache Foo" must not be used to denote
a specific thing (in this case the product), and it must always be
made clear what object we're talking about. I.e., the Apache Foo
product, released by the Apache Foo project and voted on by the
Apache Foo PMC. Or something like that.
>
>> --Thilo
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [OT] Hoover is not an adjective, was: Re: [VOTE] Release Apache opennlp-1.5.2-incubating-rc5
Posted by Kalle Korhonen <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:39 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16 November 2011 14:32, Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
>> On 15/11/11 03:22, Benson Margulies wrote:
>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:20 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 15 November 2011 02:12, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> That page is very misleading, and there was a long discussion of this
>>>>> topic elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look at the example just above the requirement:
>>>>>
>>>>> "The Apache Xerces XML parsing library is easily configurable and
>>>>> compliant with current standards"
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, in some sense, Xerces is an adjective there, but really what the
>>>>> senator is trying to say is to construct a particular noun phrase.
>>>>
>>>> AIUI, trademarks need to be used as if they are adjectives.
> Not sure possible word order is relevant/conclusive.
>
>> This might explain why people in a project like OpenNLP are
>> confused by that sentence on the trademarks page.
>
> The point is that the mark must be *used as* an adjective.
> I think this was previously called an adjectival noun, it now seems to
> be called "noun adjunct":
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_adjunct
> What do you suggest the trademarks page should say in order to make it clearer?
I'm glad that Thilo brought this up because talking about an adjective
is clearly incorrect and confusing. Indeed, the Wikipedia source you
linked to clearly specifies it's a noun, not an adjective. As to what
the trademarks page should say, first of all the "used as an
adjective" needs to be removed and replaced with the correct term,
noun adjust or attributive noun; the latter may be intuitively more
clear.
Instead of:
"Project and product names should always be referred to in a
consistent casing and used as an adjective, and never as a noun or
verb, like any trademark should be used."
How about:
"Project and product names should always be referred to in a
consistent casing and can not be used alone to specify the project or
the product, but only as attributive nouns to the specific term (e.g.
project, product, library, etc.) to indicate trademarks associated
with it.
Kalle
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Re: [OT] Hoover is not an adjective, was: Re: [VOTE] Release Apache opennlp-1.5.2-incubating-rc5
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 November 2011 14:32, Thilo Goetz <tw...@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 15/11/11 03:22, Benson Margulies wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 9:20 PM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 15 November 2011 02:12, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> That page is very misleading, and there was a long discussion of this
>>>> topic elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> Look at the example just above the requirement:
>>>>
>>>> "The Apache Xerces XML parsing library is easily configurable and
>>>> compliant with current standards"
>>>>
>>>> Yes, in some sense, Xerces is an adjective there, but really what the
>>>> senator is trying to say is to construct a particular noun phrase.
>>>
>>> AIUI, trademarks need to be used as if they are adjectives.
>>>
>>> For example:
>>>
>>> The Hoover vacuum cleaner is versatile
>>> NOT
>>> The Hoover is a versatile vacuum cleaner
>>
>> I think I've just discovered that I'm too tired to type. I agree:
>> that's an adjective. However, it's really very hard to make sense of
>> the requirement without the example, either what you just sent or
>> what's on the page.
>>
>
> See subject line.
>
> Feel free to completely ignore this, but the linguist in me
> couldn't let this go ;-). You can verify this by trying to
> stick another adjective between Hoover and the rest. Just
> like "car" in "car door" is not an adjective (compare "green
> car door" vs. "car green door"), Hoover is not an adjective
> in "Hoover vacuum cleaner" (and neither is vacuum).
Not sure possible word order is relevant/conclusive.
> This might explain why people in a project like OpenNLP are
> confused by that sentence on the trademarks page.
The point is that the mark must be *used as* an adjective.
I think this was previously called an adjectival noun, it now seems to
be called "noun adjunct":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noun_adjunct
What do you suggest the trademarks page should say in order to make it clearer?
> --Thilo
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>
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