You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> on 2003/04/02 23:24:24 UTC
Sun and the JCP 2.5
Please read this:
http://openenterprisetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?193
Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read
the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
(http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says
"qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members".
While I realize that this isn't an Apache opensource project, it was my
understanding that Apache had invested a great deal of effort in getting
Sun to open up the JCP and enact these reforms. I would hate to thing
and be very disappointed if they were not being applied fairly.
Who is on the current "scholarship" board? Any apache folks? Are you
able to comment?
Thanks,
-Andy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> What should we call this proposed list?
>
> jcp-open?
Done.
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 07:06 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>>
>>> We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on
>>> it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of
>>> the ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You
>>> can choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the
>>> former and not the latter.
>
> Sigh.
>
> I have not signed any NDA. I have only signed the ASF membership
> application.
>
> We can take a list which gets virtually zero traffic and split it in
> two. We did that once before, and created a list which allows Sun to
> participate. It gets even less traffic.
>
> How you can prove a negative (i.e., that you had access to such
> information but never actually took advantage of it), is beyond me.
>
> What should we call this proposed list?
jcp-open?
jabberwocky?
soundofsilence?
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-434-2093(m)
geirm@adeptra.com 203-247-1713(m)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> What should we call this proposed list?
jcp-public
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on
>> it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the
>> ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can
>> choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former
>> and not the latter.
Sigh.
I have not signed any NDA. I have only signed the ASF membership
application.
We can take a list which gets virtually zero traffic and split it in
two. We did that once before, and created a list which allows Sun to
participate. It gets even less traffic.
How you can prove a negative (i.e., that you had access to such
information but never actually took advantage of it), is beyond me.
What should we call this proposed list?
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on
>> it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the
>> ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can
>> choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former
>> and not the latter.
Sigh.
I have not signed any NDA. I have only signed the ASF membership
application.
We can take a list which gets virtually zero traffic and split it in
two. We did that once before, and created a list which allows Sun to
participate. It gets even less traffic.
How you can prove a negative (i.e., that you had access to such
information but never actually took advantage of it), is beyond me.
What should we call this proposed list?
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by David Reid <dr...@jetnet.co.uk>.
Thanks for a moment of clarity in all this madness Roy :)
david
> > Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late. I
> > choose to take part in the ASF and its decision making processes. I
> > choose not to have information that would limit my financial viability
> > via making me party to a Non Disclosure Agreement.
> >
> > I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd
> > spec for a VM as part of some JSR you're working on and I then go and
> > start working on Mono and Sun takes my house for "disclosing"..
> > (possibly without me even reading it)
>
> That isn't possible. Even if you were to read "secret" information, you
> cannot be sued for making use of public information once it has become
> public, nor can you be sued for making use of your secret knowledge
> to create something that is not derived from the presentation of that
> information from Sun, presuming that you can demonstrate it wasn't
> derived from the secret (which would be easy for Mono).
>
> What you can be sued for is taking information that is distributed under
> NDA and making it public, even if you are not a party in the NDA. As
> long
> as you know that Sun considers it to be a trade secret and has not
> published it themselves, you cannot publish that information regardless
> of
> how it was obtained. Signing, or not signing, the NDA is irrelevant.
>
> Even if you never see the secret information, and have no ties to anyone
> who has access to it, you can be sued. The company simply needs a
> reason
> to believe that someone under NDA (including its own employees) might
> have given you the information. However, they can only sue you for
> damages caused to them by you making that information public prior
> to others making it public. They cannot sue you for what you know,
> and they cannot claim damages if you keep it secret.
>
> The purpose of the NDA is to establish a contract between those who
> give us the information to those who receive it, such that we all agree
> that it is secret and will treat it as such until the originator makes
> the information public.
>
> > I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be
> > entirely appropriate.
>
> general@jakarta is more than sufficient for that purpose. There is
> nothing
> about the JCP that is public other than what you see on jcp.org and
> what the spec leads offer for public review.
>
> In any case, the notion that you would somehow lose economic viability
> from being on the JCP list is just plain backwards. A consultant with
> inside information is far more valuable than one on the outside. I'll
> accept a claim that you simply don't what to partake in a closed
> process,
> which is indeed why we created the jcp list (so members who refuse to
> participate in the closed process can choose to do so). However, you
> should not go asking those who do participate about the facts that are
> readily available to those on the list. You need to read the public
> output instead.
>
> ....Roy
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
RE: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> you cannot publish that information regardless
> of
> how it was obtained.
I haven't seen the jcp NDA but most NDA's I do see modify this by saying.. "unless the information has been legally obtained from a third part with whom no such agreement exists"
As far as the point is concerned from what I can see the ASF has an NDA with Sun, and if we (people) don't like that its tough.
Andy doesn't trust himself not to reveal Sun's secrets but he does want to discuss the issues, so he wants a public list where material coverd by the NDA cannot be published.
Thats seems reasonable, also I might want to make some contribution to the discussion but as I'm not a member I can't subscribe to the jcp list covered by the NDA. So what should I do? Lobby members off-list perhaps? Not really "the apache way" is it..
On the other hand perhaps Andy shouldn't get his cake and eat it, there are drawbacks as well as benefits to membership, and its up to him to manage his interests, and non-members? I assume the NDA limits this discussion to members only, so theres no real option here.
d.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org>.
> Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late. I
> choose to take part in the ASF and its decision making processes. I
> choose not to have information that would limit my financial viability
> via making me party to a Non Disclosure Agreement.
>
> I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd
> spec for a VM as part of some JSR you're working on and I then go and
> start working on Mono and Sun takes my house for "disclosing"..
> (possibly without me even reading it)
That isn't possible. Even if you were to read "secret" information, you
cannot be sued for making use of public information once it has become
public, nor can you be sued for making use of your secret knowledge
to create something that is not derived from the presentation of that
information from Sun, presuming that you can demonstrate it wasn't
derived from the secret (which would be easy for Mono).
What you can be sued for is taking information that is distributed under
NDA and making it public, even if you are not a party in the NDA. As
long
as you know that Sun considers it to be a trade secret and has not
published it themselves, you cannot publish that information regardless
of
how it was obtained. Signing, or not signing, the NDA is irrelevant.
Even if you never see the secret information, and have no ties to anyone
who has access to it, you can be sued. The company simply needs a
reason
to believe that someone under NDA (including its own employees) might
have given you the information. However, they can only sue you for
damages caused to them by you making that information public prior
to others making it public. They cannot sue you for what you know,
and they cannot claim damages if you keep it secret.
The purpose of the NDA is to establish a contract between those who
give us the information to those who receive it, such that we all agree
that it is secret and will treat it as such until the originator makes
the information public.
> I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be
> entirely appropriate.
general@jakarta is more than sufficient for that purpose. There is
nothing
about the JCP that is public other than what you see on jcp.org and
what the spec leads offer for public review.
In any case, the notion that you would somehow lose economic viability
from being on the JCP list is just plain backwards. A consultant with
inside information is far more valuable than one on the outside. I'll
accept a claim that you simply don't what to partake in a closed
process,
which is indeed why we created the jcp list (so members who refuse to
participate in the closed process can choose to do so). However, you
should not go asking those who do participate about the facts that are
readily available to those on the list. You need to read the public
output instead.
....Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org>.
> Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late. I
> choose to take part in the ASF and its decision making processes. I
> choose not to have information that would limit my financial viability
> via making me party to a Non Disclosure Agreement.
>
> I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd
> spec for a VM as part of some JSR you're working on and I then go and
> start working on Mono and Sun takes my house for "disclosing"..
> (possibly without me even reading it)
That isn't possible. Even if you were to read "secret" information, you
cannot be sued for making use of public information once it has become
public, nor can you be sued for making use of your secret knowledge
to create something that is not derived from the presentation of that
information from Sun, presuming that you can demonstrate it wasn't
derived from the secret (which would be easy for Mono).
What you can be sued for is taking information that is distributed under
NDA and making it public, even if you are not a party in the NDA. As
long
as you know that Sun considers it to be a trade secret and has not
published it themselves, you cannot publish that information regardless
of
how it was obtained. Signing, or not signing, the NDA is irrelevant.
Even if you never see the secret information, and have no ties to anyone
who has access to it, you can be sued. The company simply needs a
reason
to believe that someone under NDA (including its own employees) might
have given you the information. However, they can only sue you for
damages caused to them by you making that information public prior
to others making it public. They cannot sue you for what you know,
and they cannot claim damages if you keep it secret.
The purpose of the NDA is to establish a contract between those who
give us the information to those who receive it, such that we all agree
that it is secret and will treat it as such until the originator makes
the information public.
> I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be
> entirely appropriate.
general@jakarta is more than sufficient for that purpose. There is
nothing
about the JCP that is public other than what you see on jcp.org and
what the spec leads offer for public review.
In any case, the notion that you would somehow lose economic viability
from being on the JCP list is just plain backwards. A consultant with
inside information is far more valuable than one on the outside. I'll
accept a claim that you simply don't what to partake in a closed
process,
which is indeed why we created the jcp list (so members who refuse to
participate in the closed process can choose to do so). However, you
should not go asking those who do participate about the facts that are
readily available to those on the list. You need to read the public
output instead.
....Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late.
Folks - can we please try not to 'read into' each others words too much.
> I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd spec
Andrew - it is naught impossible to effectively sue someone for the use
information which was made public, say on a list like general@jakarta. And
even if one did - you'd have to show it was directly derived.
On the same token; if you somehow accidentally receive something which has
the banner 'Commercial in confidence' or some other indiciation it may be
considered a trade secret by its owner or you could resonably know it was
under an NDA - than you need to be just as careful as if you'd signed an
NDA. The knife cuts in both directions.
To 'label' things - we've instituted the jcp@ list; so that thigns are
easy to separate.
> I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be
> entirely appropriate.
Would general@jakarata not be exactly that sort of forum ? I.e. exactly
the community where java related things which affect most, if not all,
java projects are normally discussed.
If you object to the ASF effectively having certain lists which are not as
'open' and 'public' as you'd like - that is an entirely other matter.
And one you are encouraged to dicuss with community@ and board@. But
personally I think that given that we are not a public institution - our
interaction with others, such as SUN, in the real world, will always mean
that in order to build trust and communicate effective, that certain
things will be restricted to members@ or someother well identified body.
Dw
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late.
Folks - can we please try not to 'read into' each others words too much.
> I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd spec
Andrew - it is naught impossible to effectively sue someone for the use
information which was made public, say on a list like general@jakarta. And
even if one did - you'd have to show it was directly derived.
On the same token; if you somehow accidentally receive something which has
the banner 'Commercial in confidence' or some other indiciation it may be
considered a trade secret by its owner or you could resonably know it was
under an NDA - than you need to be just as careful as if you'd signed an
NDA. The knife cuts in both directions.
To 'label' things - we've instituted the jcp@ list; so that thigns are
easy to separate.
> I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be
> entirely appropriate.
Would general@jakarata not be exactly that sort of forum ? I.e. exactly
the community where java related things which affect most, if not all,
java projects are normally discussed.
If you object to the ASF effectively having certain lists which are not as
'open' and 'public' as you'd like - that is an entirely other matter.
And one you are encouraged to dicuss with community@ and board@. But
personally I think that given that we are not a public institution - our
interaction with others, such as SUN, in the real world, will always mean
that in order to build trust and communicate effective, that certain
things will be restricted to members@ or someother well identified body.
Dw
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on
> it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the
> ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can
> choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former
> and not the latter.
Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late. I
choose to take part in the ASF and its decision making processes. I
choose not to have information that would limit my financial viability
via making me party to a Non Disclosure Agreement.
I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd spec
for a VM as part of some JSR you're working on and I then go and start
working on Mono and Sun takes my house for "disclosing".. (possibly
without me even reading it)
I wanted to raise a legitimate question (thanks to Roy for a USEFUL
answer) and from you I keep hearing "it puts the lotion in the bucket or
it gets the hose"...
I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be
entirely appropriate.
-Andy
>
>> -Andy
>
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on
> it. It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the
> ASF. You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can
> choose not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former
> and not the latter.
Sam, I've gotten rather disappointed with your tactics of late. I
choose to take part in the ASF and its decision making processes. I
choose not to have information that would limit my financial viability
via making me party to a Non Disclosure Agreement.
I'd like to avoid a situations such as say someone posts some NDA'd spec
for a VM as part of some JSR you're working on and I then go and start
working on Mono and Sun takes my house for "disclosing".. (possibly
without me even reading it)
I wanted to raise a legitimate question (thanks to Roy for a USEFUL
answer) and from you I keep hearing "it puts the lotion in the bucket or
it gets the hose"...
I think an open JCP list where no NDA material is permitted would be
entirely appropriate.
-Andy
>
>> -Andy
>
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Apache is on the "scholarship" board.
>>
>> If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the
>> jcp@apache.org mailing list.
>
> The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered by
> apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my
> economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a technology
> which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a list set up for
> those who are either not members or whom do not wish to be bound by such
> agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP?
We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on it.
It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the ASF.
You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can choose
not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former and not
the latter.
> -Andy
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Apache is on the "scholarship" board.
>>
>> If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the
>> jcp@apache.org mailing list.
>
> The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered by
> apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my
> economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a technology
> which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a list set up for
> those who are either not members or whom do not wish to be bound by such
> agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP?
We've been through this before. The list is has no Sun employees on it.
It has only Apache members. They make decisions on behalf of the ASF.
You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF. You can choose
not to participate. At the moment, you have chosen the former and not
the latter.
> -Andy
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> I've suggested this time and again, making a jcp-discussion list where
> no NDA-covered information would be submitted, but there never is any
> interest.
Okay.
>
> If you are interested now - Sam, could you do the honors?
+1
>
> geir
>
>
>> -Andy
>>
>>>
>>> - Sam Ruby
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> I've suggested this time and again, making a jcp-discussion list where
> no NDA-covered information would be submitted, but there never is any
> interest.
Okay.
>
> If you are interested now - Sam, could you do the honors?
+1
>
> geir
>
>
>> -Andy
>>
>>>
>>> - Sam Ruby
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 05:38 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Apache is on the "scholarship" board.
>>
>> If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the
>> jcp@apache.org mailing list.
>
>
> The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered
> by apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my
> economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a
> technology which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a
> list set up for those who are either not members or whom do not wish
> to be bound by such agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP?
>
I've suggested this time and again, making a jcp-discussion list where
no NDA-covered information would be submitted, but there never is any
interest.
If you are interested now - Sam, could you do the honors?
geir
> -Andy
>
>>
>> - Sam Ruby
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-434-2093(m)
geirm@adeptra.com 203-247-1713(m)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Wednesday, April 2, 2003, at 05:38 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>> Yes, Apache is on the "scholarship" board.
>>
>> If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the
>> jcp@apache.org mailing list.
>
>
> The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered
> by apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my
> economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a
> technology which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a
> list set up for those who are either not members or whom do not wish
> to be bound by such agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP?
>
I've suggested this time and again, making a jcp-discussion list where
no NDA-covered information would be submitted, but there never is any
interest.
If you are interested now - Sam, could you do the honors?
geir
> -Andy
>
>>
>> - Sam Ruby
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w)
Adeptra, Inc. 203-434-2093(m)
geirm@adeptra.com 203-247-1713(m)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> Yes, Apache is on the "scholarship" board.
>
> If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the
> jcp@apache.org mailing list.
The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered by
apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my
economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a technology
which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a list set up for
those who are either not members or whom do not wish to be bound by such
agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP?
-Andy
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> Yes, Apache is on the "scholarship" board.
>
> If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the
> jcp@apache.org mailing list.
The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered by
apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun. This could limit my
economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a technology
which competes with Sun. Would it be possible to have a list set up for
those who are either not members or whom do not wish to be bound by such
agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP?
-Andy
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> Who is on the current "scholarship" board? Any apache folks? Are you
> able to comment?
Yes, Apache is on the "scholarship" board.
If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the
jcp@apache.org mailing list.
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> Who is on the current "scholarship" board? Any apache folks? Are you
> able to comment?
Yes, Apache is on the "scholarship" board.
If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the
jcp@apache.org mailing list.
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>
>>http://openenterprisetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?193
>
>
>>Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read
>>the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
>
>
> The rules we helped shape make scholarship open for non profits and
> academia.
>
> Not for for-profits/commercial entities.
>
> The 'new' rules however _DO_ now allow for commercial entities to release
> their code as open source; which (as far as I understand) was out under
> the original approach.
>
> So all JBOSS needs to do is pass the TCK; just like any other commercial
> vendor. Or alternatively do some sort of split where jboss itselfs becomes
> a non profit entity fully decoupled from the commercial company.
>
> Ben Laurie is our man on TCK related Scholarship issues.
Indeed, but you and Roy have summed it up correctly.
Cheers,
Ben.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Dirk-Willem van Gulik wrote:
>
> On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>
>>http://openenterprisetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?193
>
>
>>Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read
>>the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
>
>
> The rules we helped shape make scholarship open for non profits and
> academia.
>
> Not for for-profits/commercial entities.
>
> The 'new' rules however _DO_ now allow for commercial entities to release
> their code as open source; which (as far as I understand) was out under
> the original approach.
>
> So all JBOSS needs to do is pass the TCK; just like any other commercial
> vendor. Or alternatively do some sort of split where jboss itselfs becomes
> a non profit entity fully decoupled from the commercial company.
>
> Ben Laurie is our man on TCK related Scholarship issues.
Indeed, but you and Roy have summed it up correctly.
Cheers,
Ben.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he
doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> http://openenterprisetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?193
> Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read
> the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
The rules we helped shape make scholarship open for non profits and
academia.
Not for for-profits/commercial entities.
The 'new' rules however _DO_ now allow for commercial entities to release
their code as open source; which (as far as I understand) was out under
the original approach.
So all JBOSS needs to do is pass the TCK; just like any other commercial
vendor. Or alternatively do some sort of split where jboss itselfs becomes
a non profit entity fully decoupled from the commercial company.
Ben Laurie is our man on TCK related Scholarship issues.
Dw
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Thanks. That clears it up.
-Andy
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I
>> read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
>> (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says
>> "qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members".
>
>
> I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement
> was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working
> on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above.
> <http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html>
>
>> While I realize that this isn't an Apache opensource project, it was
>> my understanding that Apache had invested a great deal of effort in
>> getting Sun to open up the JCP and enact these reforms. I would hate
>> to thing and be very disappointed if they were not being applied fairly.
>
>
> We did. Under the old rules, JBOSS would not be allowed to implement
> a compatible implementation as open source. Under the new rules, they
> only need to pass the TCK, and as a commercial organization it is up
> to them to pay for it.
>
> ....Roy
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 3/04/2003 1:24 Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I
>> read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
>> (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says
>> "qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members".
>
>
> I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement
> was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working
> on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above.
> <http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html>
Thanks for clarifying this.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 3/04/2003 1:24 Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I
>> read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
>> (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says
>> "qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members".
>
>
> I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement
> was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working
> on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above.
> <http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html>
Thanks for clarifying this.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org>.
> Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I
> read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
> (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says
> "qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members".
I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement
was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working
on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above.
<http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html>
> While I realize that this isn't an Apache opensource project, it was
> my understanding that Apache had invested a great deal of effort in
> getting Sun to open up the JCP and enact these reforms. I would hate
> to thing and be very disappointed if they were not being applied
> fairly.
We did. Under the old rules, JBOSS would not be allowed to implement
a compatible implementation as open source. Under the new rules, they
only need to pass the TCK, and as a commercial organization it is up
to them to pay for it.
....Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org>.
> Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I
> read the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
> (http://java.sun.com/features/2002/10/new_jcp.html) again and it says
> "qualified achedemic, non-profit and opensource members".
I am not sure about the announcement text, but I know that the agreement
was for nonprofit or academic organizations, or for individuals working
on behalf of a nonprofit. JBOSS is none of the above.
<http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html>
> While I realize that this isn't an Apache opensource project, it was
> my understanding that Apache had invested a great deal of effort in
> getting Sun to open up the JCP and enact these reforms. I would hate
> to thing and be very disappointed if they were not being applied
> fairly.
We did. Under the old rules, JBOSS would not be allowed to implement
a compatible implementation as open source. Under the new rules, they
only need to pass the TCK, and as a commercial organization it is up
to them to pay for it.
....Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Wed, 2 Apr 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> http://openenterprisetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?193
> Does anyone know why JBoss isn't being granted the scholarship? I read
> the Happiness is here today JCP 2.5 announcement
The rules we helped shape make scholarship open for non profits and
academia.
Not for for-profits/commercial entities.
The 'new' rules however _DO_ now allow for commercial entities to release
their code as open source; which (as far as I understand) was out under
the original approach.
So all JBOSS needs to do is pass the TCK; just like any other commercial
vendor. Or alternatively do some sort of split where jboss itselfs becomes
a non profit entity fully decoupled from the commercial company.
Ben Laurie is our man on TCK related Scholarship issues.
Dw
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org