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Posted to dev@tapestry.apache.org by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> on 2010/11/19 18:43:21 UTC
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
As long as Tapestry is considered a "one man shop" it will be relegated to
the sidelines.
All of the Tapestry committers should be posting blog entries at least once
a week.
We should also coordinate to get each other's postings onto JavaLobby, and
to vote up each others' postings. Seems sleazy, but that's how the game
works.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr> wrote:
> Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's worthwhile
> to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those numbers
> is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i too
> have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high of
> tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
>
> So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> average developer?
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
> <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> justified,
> > he told to the audience that he will update it !
> >
> > 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> >
> >> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
> >>
> >> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
> >>
> >>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
> >>
> >> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
> >> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> --
> >> Massimo
> >> http://meridio.blogspot.com
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> > Christophe Cordenier.
> >
> > Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> > Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> Open Source / JEE Consulting
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator of Apache Tapestry
The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn
how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Sebastian Hennebrueder <us...@laliluna.de>.
Hi all,
I spoke to Matt after his presentation as well and started to discuss the evaluation approach by mail. As somebody mentioned, he told people to contact him in case they don't agree. He did a lot of work on the research. I have only done 3 indepth evaluations and it takes an incredible amount of time to do such things. His effort should be respected and we should provide him with easy to prove arguments based on code samples etc.
The issue is not to value Tapestry down for efficiency. In a use case of a stateless application, there are good arguments that development efficiency is a lot higher with Spring MVC or Stripes or a light way Ruby framework. His evaluation is correct in that sense. In a use case of a business application this evaluation is no longer true and due to good error messages, class reloading etc Tapestry deserves a better evaluation.
What I proposed to Matt is to work out different use cases and point out which framework does support such an approach the best way?
Just to give you a couple of different use cases:
- Business application with many dialogs to work on data -> best addressed with component based frameworks to allow heavy reuse of elements (Tapestry, Wicket, JSF 2)
- same as above but requirement of high development speed could exclude JSF 2
- integration of business process managament, JEE etc JSF2 could be in again support by JBoss Seam
- Web like application / platform -> mostly stateless, performance considerations (Stripes, Spring MVC)
- Business app with heavy interaction on a single page -> fat client approaches (GWT, Flex, CK, echo, Vaadin etc)
- Same as before but limited client performance -> approaches which build together the content on the server (Tapestry, Wicket, Vaadin)
I will keep you posted.
--
Best Regards / Viele Grüße
Sebastian Hennebrueder
-----
http://www.laliluna.de
Java software developer and trainer for Hibernate and Java Persistence
Am 23.11.2010 um 01:20 schrieb Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo:
> On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:20:48 -0200, Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just adjusted the design of the account to look more like Tapestry' web
>> site.
>
> Cool! Thanks!
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:20:48 -0200, Igor Drobiazko
<ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just adjusted the design of the account to look more like Tapestry' web
> site.
Cool! Thanks!
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>.
Looks great :)
Katia
2010/11/23 Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>
> Just adjusted the design of the account to look more like Tapestry' web
> site.
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
> thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:54:29 -0200, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >>
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> >
> > This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time.
> >> In order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility
> about
> >> what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very
> >> good tool.
> >>
> >
> > Before anyone else grabbed the accout, I've just created it:
> > http://twitter.com/apachetapestry.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > --
> > Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> > Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
> > and instructor
> > Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> > http://www.arsmachina.com.br
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Igor Drobiazko
> http://tapestry5.de
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
Just adjusted the design of the account to look more like Tapestry' web
site.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:54:29 -0200, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>>
>
> Hi!
>
>
> This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time.
>> In order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility about
>> what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very
>> good tool.
>>
>
> Before anyone else grabbed the accout, I've just created it:
> http://twitter.com/apachetapestry.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
> and instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
Great, please send me the password.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 8:07 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo <
thiagohp@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:54:29 -0200, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>>
>
> Hi!
>
>
> This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time.
>> In order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility about
>> what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very
>> good tool.
>>
>
> Before anyone else grabbed the accout, I've just created it:
> http://twitter.com/apachetapestry.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
> Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
> and instructor
> Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
> http://www.arsmachina.com.br
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
>
>
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by "Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo" <th...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, 21 Nov 2010 14:54:29 -0200, Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi all,
Hi!
> This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time.
> In order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility
> about
> what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very
> good tool.
Before anyone else grabbed the accout, I've just created it:
http://twitter.com/apachetapestry.
Cheers!
--
Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo
Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer,
and instructor
Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda.
http://www.arsmachina.com.br
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@tapestry.apache.org
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Katia Aresti <ka...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
This is not the first time I say this, but it's certainly the last time. In
order to grow Tapestry's popularity and give people the visibility about
what's going on, and that's it's not a one-man-show, Twitter is a very good
tool.
Twitter's popularity has grown amazingly. It's everywhere, and it gains more
and more place.
See here several examples of frameworks on twitter :
http://twitter.com/#!/playframework
http://twitter.com/#!/rails
http://twitter.com/#!/grailsframework
http://twitter.com/#!/SpringRoo
People follows these fw. Twitter is a buzz tool, and if you use it
correctly, it's even useful to catch nice information and articles too. It's
just a matter to follow correctly. Most people I follow use twitter just for
professional issues, so it's not just a distraction.
Several tools out there allow to co-tweet on the same account (we do it on
Duchess @duchessfr), so you could simply create a tapestry5framework account
and use it to co-tweet together articles, events, talks, impressions,
available formations, what happens on the world related to tapestry and the
web (I mean for example things with impact on tapestry not being tapestry
himself).
Cheers,
Katia
2010/11/19 Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> Going over a year was not great, for sure.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Igor Drobiazko <igor.drobiazko@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > We also need to rethink our release strategy. We need at least 3 releases
> > per year.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > As long as Tapestry is considered a "one man shop" it will be relegated
> > to
> > > the sidelines.
> > >
> > > All of the Tapestry committers should be posting blog entries at least
> > once
> > > a week.
> > >
> > > We should also coordinate to get each other's postings onto JavaLobby,
> > and
> > > to vote up each others' postings. Seems sleazy, but that's how the
> game
> > > works.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's
> > > worthwhile
> > > > to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those
> > > numbers
> > > > is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i
> > too
> > > > have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high
> of
> > > > tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
> > > >
> > > > So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> > > > reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> > > > surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> > > > average developer?
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
> > > > <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Hi
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> > > > justified,
> > > > > he told to the audience that he will update it !
> > > > >
> > > > > 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
> > > > >>
> > > > >> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I
> would
> > > > >> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Cheers
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Massimo
> > > > >> http://meridio.blogspot.com
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Christophe Cordenier.
> > > > >
> > > > > Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> > > > > Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> > > > Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> > > > Open Source / JEE Consulting
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Howard M. Lewis Ship
> > >
> > > Creator of Apache Tapestry
> > >
> > > The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> > > learn
> > > how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
> > >
> > > (971) 678-5210
> > > http://howardlewisship.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Igor Drobiazko
> > http://tapestry5.de
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>
> The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> learn
> how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
>
> (971) 678-5210
> http://howardlewisship.com
>
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>.
Going over a year was not great, for sure.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>wrote:
> We also need to rethink our release strategy. We need at least 3 releases
> per year.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > As long as Tapestry is considered a "one man shop" it will be relegated
> to
> > the sidelines.
> >
> > All of the Tapestry committers should be posting blog entries at least
> once
> > a week.
> >
> > We should also coordinate to get each other's postings onto JavaLobby,
> and
> > to vote up each others' postings. Seems sleazy, but that's how the game
> > works.
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's
> > worthwhile
> > > to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those
> > numbers
> > > is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i
> too
> > > have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high of
> > > tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
> > >
> > > So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> > > reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> > > surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> > > average developer?
> > >
> > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
> > > <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > >
> > > > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> > > justified,
> > > > he told to the audience that he will update it !
> > > >
> > > > 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > >> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
> > > >>
> > > >> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
> > > >>
> > > >> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
> > > >> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
> > > >>
> > > >> Cheers
> > > >> --
> > > >> Massimo
> > > >> http://meridio.blogspot.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Christophe Cordenier.
> > > >
> > > > Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> > > > Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> > > Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> > > Open Source / JEE Consulting
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Howard M. Lewis Ship
> >
> > Creator of Apache Tapestry
> >
> > The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> > learn
> > how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
> >
> > (971) 678-5210
> > http://howardlewisship.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Igor Drobiazko
> http://tapestry5.de
>
--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator of Apache Tapestry
The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn
how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
(971) 678-5210
http://howardlewisship.com
Re: For the one at the Devoxx
Posted by Igor Drobiazko <ig...@gmail.com>.
We also need to rethink our release strategy. We need at least 3 releases
per year.
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Howard Lewis Ship <hl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As long as Tapestry is considered a "one man shop" it will be relegated to
> the sidelines.
>
> All of the Tapestry committers should be posting blog entries at least once
> a week.
>
> We should also coordinate to get each other's postings onto JavaLobby, and
> to vote up each others' postings. Seems sleazy, but that's how the game
> works.
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Andreas Andreou <an...@di.uoa.gr>
> wrote:
>
> > Seen that yesterday - before trying to "change" the values, it's
> worthwhile
> > to first interpret them... And what i find annoying from all those
> numbers
> > is the developers perception of Tapestry (only JSF scores as bad) - i too
> > have the feeling that the average java developer doesn't think high of
> > tapestry (and it's really irrelevant if he can justify that or not).
> >
> > So, i think it makes sense to brainstorm some ideas on how to
> > reverse that perception. The new website+documentation will
> > surely help, but what other actions can significantly affect the
> > average developer?
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 18:37, Christophe Cordenier
> > <ch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Actually, you can send him en email if you think values are not
> > justified,
> > > he told to the audience that he will update it !
> > >
> > > 2010/11/19 Massimo Lusetti <ml...@gmail.com>
> > >
> > >> Did you attend or here by Matt Raible?
> > >>
> > >> http://www.slideshare.net/mraible/comparing-jvm-web-frameworks
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0AtkkDCT2WDMXdC1HOEtnUHpCejJMbUhGeGJWUmh5dVE&hl=en&output=html
> > >>
> > >> I actually don't understand the value in the spreadsheet... I would
> > >> like to show him the presentation Igor has done lately...
> > >>
> > >> Cheers
> > >> --
> > >> Massimo
> > >> http://meridio.blogspot.com
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Regards,
> > > Christophe Cordenier.
> > >
> > > Committer on Apache Tapestry 5
> > > Co-creator of wooki @wookicentral.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andreas Andreou - andyhot@apache.org - http://blog.andyhot.gr
> > Tapestry PMC / Tacos developer
> > Open Source / JEE Consulting
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tapestry.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tapestry.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Howard M. Lewis Ship
>
> Creator of Apache Tapestry
>
> The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to
> learn
> how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast!
>
> (971) 678-5210
> http://howardlewisship.com
>
--
Best regards,
Igor Drobiazko
http://tapestry5.de