April board report

[Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>]

April is our month to report to the board via the Incubator PMC.

Any volunteers to write the report? Please first check it in to the  
svn repository (under "board") so everyone can review it and then copy  
it into the Incubator wiki http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009  
by Wednesday 8-April to be forwarded to the board.

Thanks,

Craig


Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!

Re: April board report

[Charles Matthew Chen <ch...@gmail.com>]

+1 to trying to migrate Sanselan into Apache Commons Sanselan.

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> But I think we should talk with the Commons people and see what they
>>> think about it. I think we met all graduation criteria apart from the
>>> diversity/community aspect. So we're ready to graduate into a sub
>>> project like commons.
>>>
>>> WDYT?
>>
>> +1 to trying to migrate Sanselan into Apache Commons Sanselan.
>
> I would love to see Sanselan as Commons subproject!
>
> Cheers,
> Christian
>

Re: April board report

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>]

>> But I think we should talk with the Commons people and see what they
>> think about it. I think we met all graduation criteria apart from the
>> diversity/community aspect. So we're ready to graduate into a sub
>> project like commons.
>>
>> WDYT?
>
> +1 to trying to migrate Sanselan into Apache Commons Sanselan.

I would love to see Sanselan as Commons subproject!

Cheers,
Christian

Re: April board report

[Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch>]

On 06.04.2009 10:40:51 Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> Jeremias Maerki wrote:
> > I don't want to be too negative, but I've thought a little about
> > Sanselan. What happens if someone comes up with a 100% Java JPEG or
> > JBIG2 implementation? Or ImageIO codecs wrapping the implementations
> > here? Sanselan is a collection of related items. When one item is
> > finished there's not much incentive to stick around and do further
> > development. Once you got the feature you were looking for, you're gone.
> > 
> > All we have is a few wishes, but not enough time to make certain
> > things happen.
> > 
> > Philipp is basically hinting at part of the problem: "ok, jpeg is
> > missing but can be worked around easily." ImageIO offers so much that
> > you only need Sanselan in very special cases. JPEG support is not as
> > badly needed as it is available on every Java VM >=1.4. You (maybe) extract
> > the metadata with Sanselan but load the image with ImageIO.
> > 
> > ATM, I have trouble seeing how a community can be built like this. Of
> > course, a small group can allocate some time to work on a few things and
> > get the project through graduation, but isn't it then only destined for
> > the Attic afterwards? Please don't get me wrong: Sanselan is a great
> > library and offers some very nice functionality. At the moment, I just
> > don't see it graduating any time soon. The best I currently see for
> > Sanselan is to become an Apache Commons subproject that is allowed to go
> > dormant for some time and to be reawakened from time to time to add some
> > functionality. However, I fear that Sanselan would get lost in the noise
> > of the joint mailing lists. But Sanselan as a TLP? I have trouble
> > imagining that. For the third time in a row, we basically report almost
> > the exact same text.
> > 
> > I'm curious about your ideas. I'd like Sanselan to succeed.
> > 
> Ok, so here we go:
> I think basically we have three options (I'm just listing all of them,
> I'm not a fan of all of them!):
> 
> 1) continue in the same manner and hope that at some point of time the
> community will grow and we can graduate - but I fear this won't happen.
> Sanselan is a cool and great library which is perfect for the things it
> does. It's easy to use it and it works. Which is of course great for a
> software but bad for community building :)

Right, which means this is not leading anywhere.

> 2) close down the project and call it "failed incubation" - now this
> would be a really bad and in the end it wouldn't help anyone. Code like
> this are a great benefit to the foundation.

Yes, it would be a shame for all the work that has gone into making the
incubation happen. But if Sanselan went on outside the ASF, we could
still use it.

> 3) try to graduate :) Now, obviously we can't make it into an own TLP,
> so we need to become a sub project of an existing TLP. I thought about
> Tikka (well, Lucene in this case) and Apache Commons. I mentioned
> Commons to Craig and he thought that this would be a good option (I hope
> I got this right Craig) and you're also coming to this conclusion.
> Apache Commons is imho a perfect fit for software like this; it's a
> focused domain, with working/perfect code and it might just need some
> maintenance from time to time; I guess most of these criterias are true
> for several projects in commons.

I think the Commons option is the best compromise. Burying it in
Tika/Lucene isn't a good idea IMO (visibility).

There's a similar case with an ASF-wide XMP library: JempBox "hidden" away
in PDFBox and another "hidden" in XML Graphics Commons. The best way is
to consolidate in an Apache Commons subproject.

> Maybe there is a fourth option?

I don't see one.

> But I think we should talk with the Commons people and see what they
> think about it. I think we met all graduation criteria apart from the
> diversity/community aspect. So we're ready to graduate into a sub
> project like commons.
> 
> WDYT?

+1 to trying to migrate Sanselan into Apache Commons Sanselan.

> Carsten
> -- 
> Carsten Ziegeler
> cziegeler@apache.org




Jeremias Maerki

Re: April board report

[Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch>]

On 06.04.2009 10:39:27 Philipp Koch wrote:
> hi jeremias,
> >"ImageIO offers so much that you only need Sanselan in very special cases"
> yes and no ;-). for the jpeg use case, ImageIO is not able to read
> specific jpeg headers (eg. embedded adobe jpeg in pdfs), cannot read
> tiff and other file formats that sanselan is able to (without any need
> to install platform dependent plugins (i think of jai)). i think that

Yes, TIFF is the big bummer with a plain Sun JVM. But the JAI ImageIO
Tools include a platform-independent TIFF codec that works fine for
FOP's needs. So again, an incentive to use Sanselan falls away. Of
course, it would be easy to write a plug-in for Sanselan into XML
Graphics Commons' image loader framework (I've actually already done it
as an experiment but I haven't published it).

> imageIO covers all (web)usecases (jpeg, gif, png..) very well but does
> not go beyond that. and that's exactely where sanselan can jump in!
> i think of use cases that sanselan could fulfill in the future like:
> - support "tiled image" functionality for very large images (e.g.
> tiff) (i know jai does it...)
> - extended metadata support (emedded xmp) for all possible image formats
> - ....

Of course, I see that and that's why I also think Sanselan is great.
It's just that Sanselan only offers very little at the moment for the
use cases I deal with from day to day. The same applies to a lot of
other people that just need to load images.

When I'm done with it, I can publish the CCITT Group 4/6 compressor I'm
working on when I'm travelling. That will add real benefit to Sanselan
and can be the spark necessary for the XML Graphics project to use
Sanselan.

> regards,
> philipp
> 
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch> wrote:
> > I don't want to be too negative, but I've thought a little about
> > Sanselan. What happens if someone comes up with a 100% Java JPEG or
> > JBIG2 implementation? Or ImageIO codecs wrapping the implementations
> > here? Sanselan is a collection of related items. When one item is
> > finished there's not much incentive to stick around and do further
> > development. Once you got the feature you were looking for, you're gone.
> >
> > All we have is a few wishes, but not enough time to make certain
> > things happen.
> >
> > Philipp is basically hinting at part of the problem: "ok, jpeg is
> > missing but can be worked around easily." ImageIO offers so much that
> > you only need Sanselan in very special cases. JPEG support is not as
> > badly needed as it is available on every Java VM >=1.4. You (maybe) extract
> > the metadata with Sanselan but load the image with ImageIO.
> >
> > ATM, I have trouble seeing how a community can be built like this. Of
> > course, a small group can allocate some time to work on a few things and
> > get the project through graduation, but isn't it then only destined for
> > the Attic afterwards? Please don't get me wrong: Sanselan is a great
> > library and offers some very nice functionality. At the moment, I just
> > don't see it graduating any time soon. The best I currently see for
> > Sanselan is to become an Apache Commons subproject that is allowed to go
> > dormant for some time and to be reawakened from time to time to add some
> > functionality. However, I fear that Sanselan would get lost in the noise
> > of the joint mailing lists. But Sanselan as a TLP? I have trouble
> > imagining that. For the third time in a row, we basically report almost
> > the exact same text.
> >
> > I'm curious about your ideas. I'd like Sanselan to succeed.
> >
> > On 06.04.2009 09:46:35 Philipp Koch wrote:
> >> thanks carsten!
> >> yes, there isn't much activity there... but the stuff/functionality
> >> sanselan is providing is very good and complete (ok, jpeg is missing
> >> but can be worked around easily). that's in my opinion the reason why
> >> there isn't much activity there...
> >>
> >> regards,
> >> philipp
> >>
> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> > I've added an initial version:
> >> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009
> >> >
> >> > I think we should address the possible graduation paths for Sanselan in
> >> > the near future. I briefly talked with Craig at ApacheCon Europe about
> >> > this and also talked with Philipp. So we have some vague ideas, I still
> >> > need the time to write them down :) But I hope I can come up with an
> >> > email during the week.
> >> >
> >> > Carsten
> >> >
> >> > Craig L Russell wrote:
> >> >> April is our month to report to the board via the Incubator PMC.
> >> >>
> >> >> Any volunteers to write the report? Please first check it in to the svn
> >> >> repository (under "board") so everyone can review it and then copy it
> >> >> into the Incubator wiki http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009 by
> >> >> Wednesday 8-April to be forwarded to the board.
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks,
> >> >>
> >> >> Craig
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Craig L Russell
> >> >> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
> >> >> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> >> >> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Carsten Ziegeler
> >> > cziegeler@apache.org
> >> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Jeremias Maerki
> >
> >




Jeremias Maerki

Re: April board report

[Jukka Zitting <ju...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:40 AM, Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org> wrote:
> 3) try to graduate :) Now, obviously we can't make it into an own TLP,
> so we need to become a sub project of an existing TLP. I thought about
> Tikka (well, Lucene in this case) and Apache Commons.

Tika is a higher level library that generally prefers to avoid
focusing too much on the byte-level specifics of any given file
format. Thus I tend to agree that Commons is probably a better match
for Sanselan.

There's already a precedent of Tika using a Commons component as a
parser library  (the new commons-compress library for gz, bz2, tar,
cpio, ar, zip and jar files).

BR,

Jukka Zitting

Re: April board report

[Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org>]

Jeremias Maerki wrote:
> I don't want to be too negative, but I've thought a little about
> Sanselan. What happens if someone comes up with a 100% Java JPEG or
> JBIG2 implementation? Or ImageIO codecs wrapping the implementations
> here? Sanselan is a collection of related items. When one item is
> finished there's not much incentive to stick around and do further
> development. Once you got the feature you were looking for, you're gone.
> 
> All we have is a few wishes, but not enough time to make certain
> things happen.
> 
> Philipp is basically hinting at part of the problem: "ok, jpeg is
> missing but can be worked around easily." ImageIO offers so much that
> you only need Sanselan in very special cases. JPEG support is not as
> badly needed as it is available on every Java VM >=1.4. You (maybe) extract
> the metadata with Sanselan but load the image with ImageIO.
> 
> ATM, I have trouble seeing how a community can be built like this. Of
> course, a small group can allocate some time to work on a few things and
> get the project through graduation, but isn't it then only destined for
> the Attic afterwards? Please don't get me wrong: Sanselan is a great
> library and offers some very nice functionality. At the moment, I just
> don't see it graduating any time soon. The best I currently see for
> Sanselan is to become an Apache Commons subproject that is allowed to go
> dormant for some time and to be reawakened from time to time to add some
> functionality. However, I fear that Sanselan would get lost in the noise
> of the joint mailing lists. But Sanselan as a TLP? I have trouble
> imagining that. For the third time in a row, we basically report almost
> the exact same text.
> 
> I'm curious about your ideas. I'd like Sanselan to succeed.
> 
Ok, so here we go:
I think basically we have three options (I'm just listing all of them,
I'm not a fan of all of them!):

1) continue in the same manner and hope that at some point of time the
community will grow and we can graduate - but I fear this won't happen.
Sanselan is a cool and great library which is perfect for the things it
does. It's easy to use it and it works. Which is of course great for a
software but bad for community building :)

2) close down the project and call it "failed incubation" - now this
would be a really bad and in the end it wouldn't help anyone. Code like
this are a great benefit to the foundation.

3) try to graduate :) Now, obviously we can't make it into an own TLP,
so we need to become a sub project of an existing TLP. I thought about
Tikka (well, Lucene in this case) and Apache Commons. I mentioned
Commons to Craig and he thought that this would be a good option (I hope
I got this right Craig) and you're also coming to this conclusion.
Apache Commons is imho a perfect fit for software like this; it's a
focused domain, with working/perfect code and it might just need some
maintenance from time to time; I guess most of these criterias are true
for several projects in commons.

Maybe there is a fourth option?

But I think we should talk with the Commons people and see what they
think about it. I think we met all graduation criteria apart from the
diversity/community aspect. So we're ready to graduate into a sub
project like commons.

WDYT?
Carsten
-- 
Carsten Ziegeler
cziegeler@apache.org

Re: April board report

[Philipp Koch <pk...@day.com>]

hi jeremias,
>"ImageIO offers so much that you only need Sanselan in very special cases"
yes and no ;-). for the jpeg use case, ImageIO is not able to read
specific jpeg headers (eg. embedded adobe jpeg in pdfs), cannot read
tiff and other file formats that sanselan is able to (without any need
to install platform dependent plugins (i think of jai)). i think that
imageIO covers all (web)usecases (jpeg, gif, png..) very well but does
not go beyond that. and that's exactely where sanselan can jump in!
i think of use cases that sanselan could fulfill in the future like:
- support "tiled image" functionality for very large images (e.g.
tiff) (i know jai does it...)
- extended metadata support (emedded xmp) for all possible image formats
- ....

regards,
philipp

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 10:23 AM, Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch> wrote:
> I don't want to be too negative, but I've thought a little about
> Sanselan. What happens if someone comes up with a 100% Java JPEG or
> JBIG2 implementation? Or ImageIO codecs wrapping the implementations
> here? Sanselan is a collection of related items. When one item is
> finished there's not much incentive to stick around and do further
> development. Once you got the feature you were looking for, you're gone.
>
> All we have is a few wishes, but not enough time to make certain
> things happen.
>
> Philipp is basically hinting at part of the problem: "ok, jpeg is
> missing but can be worked around easily." ImageIO offers so much that
> you only need Sanselan in very special cases. JPEG support is not as
> badly needed as it is available on every Java VM >=1.4. You (maybe) extract
> the metadata with Sanselan but load the image with ImageIO.
>
> ATM, I have trouble seeing how a community can be built like this. Of
> course, a small group can allocate some time to work on a few things and
> get the project through graduation, but isn't it then only destined for
> the Attic afterwards? Please don't get me wrong: Sanselan is a great
> library and offers some very nice functionality. At the moment, I just
> don't see it graduating any time soon. The best I currently see for
> Sanselan is to become an Apache Commons subproject that is allowed to go
> dormant for some time and to be reawakened from time to time to add some
> functionality. However, I fear that Sanselan would get lost in the noise
> of the joint mailing lists. But Sanselan as a TLP? I have trouble
> imagining that. For the third time in a row, we basically report almost
> the exact same text.
>
> I'm curious about your ideas. I'd like Sanselan to succeed.
>
> On 06.04.2009 09:46:35 Philipp Koch wrote:
>> thanks carsten!
>> yes, there isn't much activity there... but the stuff/functionality
>> sanselan is providing is very good and complete (ok, jpeg is missing
>> but can be worked around easily). that's in my opinion the reason why
>> there isn't much activity there...
>>
>> regards,
>> philipp
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org> wrote:
>> > I've added an initial version:
>> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009
>> >
>> > I think we should address the possible graduation paths for Sanselan in
>> > the near future. I briefly talked with Craig at ApacheCon Europe about
>> > this and also talked with Philipp. So we have some vague ideas, I still
>> > need the time to write them down :) But I hope I can come up with an
>> > email during the week.
>> >
>> > Carsten
>> >
>> > Craig L Russell wrote:
>> >> April is our month to report to the board via the Incubator PMC.
>> >>
>> >> Any volunteers to write the report? Please first check it in to the svn
>> >> repository (under "board") so everyone can review it and then copy it
>> >> into the Incubator wiki http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009 by
>> >> Wednesday 8-April to be forwarded to the board.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >>
>> >> Craig
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Craig L Russell
>> >> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>> >> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> >> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Carsten Ziegeler
>> > cziegeler@apache.org
>> >
>
>
>
>
> Jeremias Maerki
>
>

Re: April board report

[Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch>]

I don't want to be too negative, but I've thought a little about
Sanselan. What happens if someone comes up with a 100% Java JPEG or
JBIG2 implementation? Or ImageIO codecs wrapping the implementations
here? Sanselan is a collection of related items. When one item is
finished there's not much incentive to stick around and do further
development. Once you got the feature you were looking for, you're gone.

All we have is a few wishes, but not enough time to make certain
things happen.

Philipp is basically hinting at part of the problem: "ok, jpeg is
missing but can be worked around easily." ImageIO offers so much that
you only need Sanselan in very special cases. JPEG support is not as
badly needed as it is available on every Java VM >=1.4. You (maybe) extract
the metadata with Sanselan but load the image with ImageIO.

ATM, I have trouble seeing how a community can be built like this. Of
course, a small group can allocate some time to work on a few things and
get the project through graduation, but isn't it then only destined for
the Attic afterwards? Please don't get me wrong: Sanselan is a great
library and offers some very nice functionality. At the moment, I just
don't see it graduating any time soon. The best I currently see for
Sanselan is to become an Apache Commons subproject that is allowed to go
dormant for some time and to be reawakened from time to time to add some
functionality. However, I fear that Sanselan would get lost in the noise
of the joint mailing lists. But Sanselan as a TLP? I have trouble
imagining that. For the third time in a row, we basically report almost
the exact same text.

I'm curious about your ideas. I'd like Sanselan to succeed.

On 06.04.2009 09:46:35 Philipp Koch wrote:
> thanks carsten!
> yes, there isn't much activity there... but the stuff/functionality
> sanselan is providing is very good and complete (ok, jpeg is missing
> but can be worked around easily). that's in my opinion the reason why
> there isn't much activity there...
> 
> regards,
> philipp
> 
> On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org> wrote:
> > I've added an initial version:
> > http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009
> >
> > I think we should address the possible graduation paths for Sanselan in
> > the near future. I briefly talked with Craig at ApacheCon Europe about
> > this and also talked with Philipp. So we have some vague ideas, I still
> > need the time to write them down :) But I hope I can come up with an
> > email during the week.
> >
> > Carsten
> >
> > Craig L Russell wrote:
> >> April is our month to report to the board via the Incubator PMC.
> >>
> >> Any volunteers to write the report? Please first check it in to the svn
> >> repository (under "board") so everyone can review it and then copy it
> >> into the Incubator wiki http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009 by
> >> Wednesday 8-April to be forwarded to the board.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Craig
> >>
> >>
> >> Craig L Russell
> >> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
> >> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> >> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carsten Ziegeler
> > cziegeler@apache.org
> >




Jeremias Maerki

Re: April board report

[Philipp Koch <pk...@day.com>]

thanks carsten!
yes, there isn't much activity there... but the stuff/functionality
sanselan is providing is very good and complete (ok, jpeg is missing
but can be worked around easily). that's in my opinion the reason why
there isn't much activity there...

regards,
philipp

On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org> wrote:
> I've added an initial version:
> http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009
>
> I think we should address the possible graduation paths for Sanselan in
> the near future. I briefly talked with Craig at ApacheCon Europe about
> this and also talked with Philipp. So we have some vague ideas, I still
> need the time to write them down :) But I hope I can come up with an
> email during the week.
>
> Carsten
>
> Craig L Russell wrote:
>> April is our month to report to the board via the Incubator PMC.
>>
>> Any volunteers to write the report? Please first check it in to the svn
>> repository (under "board") so everyone can review it and then copy it
>> into the Incubator wiki http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009 by
>> Wednesday 8-April to be forwarded to the board.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
>> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
>>
>
>
> --
> Carsten Ziegeler
> cziegeler@apache.org
>

Re: April board report

[Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@apache.org>]

I've added an initial version:
http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009

I think we should address the possible graduation paths for Sanselan in
the near future. I briefly talked with Craig at ApacheCon Europe about
this and also talked with Philipp. So we have some vague ideas, I still
need the time to write them down :) But I hope I can come up with an
email during the week.

Carsten

Craig L Russell wrote:
> April is our month to report to the board via the Incubator PMC.
> 
> Any volunteers to write the report? Please first check it in to the svn
> repository (under "board") so everyone can review it and then copy it
> into the Incubator wiki http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/April2009 by
> Wednesday 8-April to be forwarded to the board.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
> Craig L Russell
> Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
> 408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
> 


-- 
Carsten Ziegeler
cziegeler@apache.org