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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org> on 2002/10/21 16:51:54 UTC
Re: never gonna make it to a butterfly
[warning: rant ahead]
[copied from cocoon-users - the usual, but well-educated complaint about
missing documentation and 'competing' solutions for the same problem
inside Cocoon and the confusion this causes]
to -dev: I recall meeting with Giacomo in October 2000
(http://apachecon.com/2000/EU/) where he educated me about
authentication/authorisation really being the concern of the servlet
container rather than Cocoon itself - and after the preparation of some
course material for a Cocoon workshop we did two weeks ago, Marc and I
came to the conclusion that this indeed is a feasible way to go - just
rely on Cocoon for building up login screens, and let the container
manage authentication and authorisation. How this orthogonality could be
related to/embedded into the sitemap, I cannot answer right now, and I
do believe the Authentication stuff is doing a nice job in this regard,
but we should clear the area for 'competing' approaches while not
confusing newbie users even more. Same with the LDAP stuff, same with
database access.
I know about the Blocks work-in-progress, but still I believe there
should be some serious thinking about what goes in and stays out of the
Cocoon core. There is simply too much that shouldn't be part of it.
Being able right now to actually contribute to the Cocoon documentation,
I'm baffled currently with the amount of
gee-let's-see-if-we-can-fit-this-also-inside-Cocoon, some of it
well-maintained by the original committer, some of it... well - see
below ;-)
Some people might know already that I have been working (slowly) on an
open infrastructure to host and showcase (the development of)
Cocoon-related open source projects: http://cocoondev.org/. Related to
that, there is the xml-cocoon2-apps module now...:
stevenn@ELISABETH ~/projects
$ cvs checkout xml-cocoon2-apps
cvs server: Updating xml-cocoon2-apps
U xml-cocoon2-apps/module.xml
U xml-cocoon2-apps/properties.xml
U xml-cocoon2-apps/status.xml
cvs server: Updating xml-cocoon2-apps/legal
U xml-cocoon2-apps/legal/LICENSE
cvs server: Updating xml-cocoon2-apps/src
cvs server: Updating xml-cocoon2-apps/src/bringmethis
cvs server: Updating xml-cocoon2-apps/src/bringmethis/cocoonapp
U xml-cocoon2-apps/src/bringmethis/cocoonapp/cocoonapphere.txt
cvs server: Updating xml-cocoon2-apps/src/bringmethis/conf
U xml-cocoon2-apps/src/bringmethis/conf/configurationhere.txt
cvs server: Updating xml-cocoon2-apps/src/bringmethis/java
U xml-cocoon2-apps/src/bringmethis/java/javacodehere.txt
Hm - not much in there?
Am I the only one who believes too much has been made part of the Cocoon
core right now - and that keeping all of this up to date is next to
impossible?
Also, for the -docs people: given the current 'component explosion' of
Cocoon, will we ever be able to host a set of coherent documentation,
keeping in mind versions and optional components/functionalities?
Just a thought. If I will be asking every committer one question on the
19th of November, it will be that one: what is Core to Cocoon.
I believe everything which doesn't add anything to the sitemap
model/grammar/syntax, should be moved out of the core, and can only be
moved back in after lenghty elaboration.
Or am I FUD'ing here?
</Steven>
[message from cocoon-users underneath]
Ray Martin wrote:
> I came into the Cocoon2 stronghold not just because I was caught in the
> hype. But, also, because I liked the principles on which Cocoon was
> founded. The fact that Cocoon is based on Avalon is a good thing.
>
> I am a fan of Avalon not only because it has the best written white paper on
> the subject of frameworks and component reuse, but also because those folks
> put the talk into practically - a robust working framework. Do I know all
> about Avalon? No, I do not - I have alot to learn and I am working on it.
> But, I enjoy learning from the masters.
>
> Cocoon seems to have some great philosophies and concepts. But, it has been
> a painful experience because of inadequate details of information. I
> consider all those contributing to the Cocoon effort to be GIANTS in
> conceiving and implementing the servlet engine and framework. I wish to
> learn from these master, also.
>
> But, the information provided always leaves too much to be desired. The
> information provided is like a cocoon that dies on the vine before it can
> become a butterfly. I cannot learn from the masters if they inform me on
> about 98-99 percent of a subject and leave out the remaining 1 or 2 percent.
>
> I need two things at the moment - authentication and LDAP connection.
>
> I spent many many painful hours searching for information on authentication
> relative to the Cocoon framework. After reading and searching for what
> seemed like forever (especially when bosses would like to see some
> progress), I found a great document at
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/stories/2002/02/28/usingTheSunriseComponent
> s.html. This information was marvelous - allowed me to have insight that
> until then was impossible. The author was a master - except IT DOESN'T
> work. Well, 99 percent works, but the author left out how to do logout,
> mentioned that he would explain it, but never did. That cocoon died before
> finishing and flourishing into a butterfly. All of my study is down the
> drain, the 99 percent that was great has no value because the missing 1
> percent is needed to produce authentication within the Cocoon framework. My
> disappointment cannot be expressed.
>
> LDAP - oh boy, how I searched. Found three different writings - 1)
> LDAPProcessor, 2)LDAPTransformer, and 3) LDAP Taglib - all of which have no
> dates. Information without dates is worse than worthless because it
> actually becomes mis-information. I have spent exorbitant amounts of time
> trying to get LDAP to work within the Cocoon framework. Am I ignorant?
> YES, but now that we have that concluded, that fact does not get my project
> to spread its wings and flourish. I am currently working on the information
> found at
> http://xml.apcahe.org/cocoon/userdocs/transofrmer/ldap-transformer.html.
> What a terse piece of information. When things are not working as planned,
> how does one learn how to proceed? The information gives no clue. Am I a
> master as you guys are? Absolutely not, but I am willing to learn from the
> masters. But, once again the information is so terse that us lesser mortals
> can gain no comprehension. That information is not gonna make it to a
> butterfly - it done croaked.
>
> Please note that i refer only to information - not documentation.
> Documentation is not expected from open source efforts. Information,
> adequate information, IS expected.
>
> I was reading http://www.xml.com/lpt/a/2002/02/13/cocoon2.html - the second
> to last sentence says that many projects are using Cocoon. I wanted to be
> among those butterflies, but i ain't gonna make it out of the cocoon stage.
> Everyone was sure that I had chosen the wrong set of 'tools' to use for the
> project. Have I proved them to be correct? I am the pinnacle of idiocity -
> many projects can do it, but I CANNOT - wow...
>
> I and several others have been working on Cocoon for several months. We use
> Torque to develop the database schema and accessor classes. We write Cocoon
> actions for the middle tier business logic. The business logic of course
> 'talks' with the Torque classes. The desire is to have the Cocoon framework
> handle the presentation - but, at our current rate - we are never gonna make
> it to a...
>
> Is their a master out there somewhere who can fill me in on those missing
> tidbits of information? I make a good student - not very bright, but I pay
> close attention when the masters speak...
>
> thanx,
> Ray
>
>
>
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--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
stevenn@outerthought.org stevenn@apache.org
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Re: OT: RE: never gonna make it to a butterfly
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> <snip/>
> > Ah, one more thing, don't ask 'when', ask how you can help.
>
> Stupid english uses the same word for 'you' (one person) and 'you'
> (many people).
>
> The above sentence was *not* referred to Steven, but to all those who
> wish they had blocks *YESTERDAY* but are not doing anything about it.
>
> Sorry about it, Steven.
There some other ways around the stupid plural thing.
Reconstruct your sentences to avoid it.
* Use the term "one" which removes personal connotations.
* Use "everyone" or "anyone".
* Use "all of us".
* Use "all of those people".
This also has the advantage of removing defensiveness
that can arise from a comment which includes "you".
Please do not degenerate the language even further
with such nonsense as "all y'all" and "yous". We have
a joke in Australia when people use the nasty plural
"yous". Say to them "Baa, baa" - the sound made by a
female sheep (a "ewe") is pronounced the same.
--David
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OT: RE: never gonna make it to a butterfly
Posted by Conal Tuohy <co...@paradise.net.nz>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:andy@superlinksoftware.com]
> The correct form of YOU (pl) is Y'all. This is a contraction
> of You and
> ALL. If you want to be less casual you can say "You all".
Here in New Zealand we have "yous" (or "yous guys"). I think this form was
introduced by Maori-speakers. Maori is the indigenous language here and in
this respect it is less stupid than English and probably Italian too. :-)
Con
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Re: never gonna make it to a butterfly
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <an...@superlinksoftware.com>.
> Stupid english uses the same word for 'you' (one person) and 'you'
> (many people).
Stefano let me introduce you to speaking proper 'merican. This is
understood universally throughout the US and most of abroad will get it
intuitively. I did not adopt this into my speach until my Latin teacher
insisted I translate YOU (pl) properly.
The correct form of YOU (pl) is Y'all. This is a contraction of You and
ALL. If you want to be less casual you can say "You all".
If I'm able to make it in november I can work with you on pronounciation
of Y'all.
Just a note... In Texas Y'all is singular and Y'alls is plural, but
thats only in the Republic of Texas and causes universal confusion
outside of Texas.
>
> The above sentence was *not* referred to Steven, but to all those who
> wish they had blocks *YESTERDAY* but are not doing anything about it.
>
> Sorry about it, Steven.
>
-Andy
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Re: never gonna make it to a butterfly
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Ah, one more thing, don't ask 'when', ask how you can help.
Stupid english uses the same word for 'you' (one person) and 'you' (many
people).
The above sentence was *not* referred to Steven, but to all those who
wish they had blocks *YESTERDAY* but are not doing anything about it.
Sorry about it, Steven.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
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Re: never gonna make it to a butterfly
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Am I the only one who believes too much has been made part of the Cocoon
> core right now - and that keeping all of this up to date is next to
> impossible?
>
No, you are not.
But the block refactoring is under way and it's pruning the core tree
pretty well already.
In the future, we'll be able to deploy blocks on top of a naked cocoon.
So, what defines a naked cocoon?
That is yet to be defined but it doesn't really matter once the dynamic
block operation will be in place, because, you'll be able to do some
apt-get-like operation to download and prepare the modules that your
stuff depend on, even at runtime.
Ah, one more thing, don't ask 'when', ask how you can help.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
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