You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to user@struts.apache.org by Access Denied <ac...@gmail.com> on 2005/07/21 17:15:27 UTC
[OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Alls,
I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs. Would
you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please? I
think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
~buddy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca>.
netsql wrote:
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> It has not been unusual to estimate three months
>> for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
>> business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".
>
>
> I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?
>
> That is no respect and a bit like slavery!
Exactly my point. When I have worked for corporations, deadlines were set
cooperatively. If I said it could be down in a month, and the user said
"we need it in two weeks", I told them what they _could_ get in two weeks.
If they said "we need it _all_ in two weeks" they had to either forget it
or throw more resources at it. The world is _not_ a Dilbert cartoon -
we're highly prized professionals, and we don't have to accept slavery.
--
derek
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>
>
> I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth :-)
>
> Leon
+1
--
.V
People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up their
mail box.
roomity.com <http://roomity.com/launch.jsp>
No sign up to read and search.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Clustering in general has two purposes... load distribution and failover
capabilities. Both of these factor into scalability, load distribution
moreso obviously.
In our environment, we have a 3-node Oracle cluster in production. We
have seen efficiency gains across the board in terms of query speeds
because three users can, theoretically at least, execute a query
simultaneously more efficiently when they in essence have a server to
themselves. Of course this is idealized and rarely happens in reality,
but I'm talking theory here :)
The other side of that of course is what happens when a write a occurs...
the data has to be synchronized, which takes resources and degrades some
of the load distribution benefits. So, it is largely a question of how
the database is used... if there are more reads than writes, a cluster
should nearly always be more efficient (assuming the load distribution
mechanism is actually doing it's job properly) than a single box. The
larger the delta between reads and writes in favor of reads, the larger
will be the benefit.
All of this figures in to how well the app, in terms of the database, will
scale. Let's say we're talking a relatively steady 70-30 distribution of
reads to writes, which isn't unusual in most apps I've seen. Again,
idealizing the situation, you can handle more traffic in a 3-node cluster
than a single server, assuming reasonably similar hardware of course
(i.e., compare an 8-way box to three single CPU boxes and the single
server likely will fair better) just because the load can be distributed.
That bodes well for scalability.
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
On Tue, July 26, 2005 10:13 am, Derek Broughton said:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>
>>> Von: Michael Jouravlev [mailto:jmikus@gmail.com]
>>>
>>> On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <st...@anotheria.net> wrote:
>>> > I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
>>> > To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
>>> > (middleware), so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql.
>>> > Could be nasty with hibernate though, at least you need to turn off
>>> > the lazy loading...
>
> Surely that's entirely dependent on the type of transactions you're doing.
> I would expect lazy loading to help with scalability in some cases.
>>>
>>> I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters
>>> ;) And I believe that former are more robust than latter too.
>>
>> Database clusters exists, true. But who tells you that they scale???
>>
>> Actually I has often seen projects, where the architect told, if we will
>> have scalability problems, we will cluster the db.
>> Then, the day X came, they clustered the db and then... surprise,
>> surprise
>> it became even slower...
>>
>> I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth
>> :-)
>
> It's hard to see where clustering is ever going to be more efficient than
> a
> single multi-cpu machine of the same capacity. The cluster only helps
> when
> you get into realms beyond the reach of a single machine, and generally
> where that machine is cpu-bound. Clusters have their place, but I'm still
> not sure it's in DBs.
> --
> derek
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>> Von: Michael Jouravlev [mailto:jmikus@gmail.com]
>>
>> On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <st...@anotheria.net> wrote:
>> > I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
>> > To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
>> > (middleware), so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql.
>> > Could be nasty with hibernate though, at least you need to turn off
>> > the lazy loading...
Surely that's entirely dependent on the type of transactions you're doing.
I would expect lazy loading to help with scalability in some cases.
>>
>> I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters
>> ;) And I believe that former are more robust than latter too.
>
> Database clusters exists, true. But who tells you that they scale???
>
> Actually I has often seen projects, where the architect told, if we will
> have scalability problems, we will cluster the db.
> Then, the day X came, they clustered the db and then... surprise, surprise
> it became even slower...
>
> I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth
> :-)
It's hard to see where clustering is ever going to be more efficient than a
single multi-cpu machine of the same capacity. The cluster only helps when
you get into realms beyond the reach of a single machine, and generally
where that machine is cpu-bound. Clusters have their place, but I'm still
not sure it's in DBs.
--
derek
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <st...@anotheria.net>.
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Michael Jouravlev [mailto:jmikus@gmail.com]
> Gesendet: Montag, 25. Juli 2005 21:19
> An: Struts Users Mailing List
> Betreff: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
>
> On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <st...@anotheria.net> wrote:
> > I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
> > To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
> > (middleware), so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql.
> > Could be nasty with hibernate though, at least you need to turn off
> > the lazy loading...
> >
> > leon
>
> I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters
> ;) And I believe that former are more robust than latter too.
>
> Michael.
Database clusters exists, true. But who tells you that they scale???
Actually I has often seen projects, where the architect told, if we will
have scalability problems, we will cluster the db.
Then, the day X came, they clustered the db and then... surprise, surprise
it became even slower...
I think the sentence "clustering will help you scaling" is an urban myth :-)
Leon
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 7/25/05, Leon Rosenberg <st...@anotheria.net> wrote:
> I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
> To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
> (middleware),
> so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql. Could be nasty with
> hibernate though,
> at least you need to turn off the lazy loading...
>
> leon
I thought that database clusters exist before J2EE clusters ;) And I
believe that former are more robust than latter too.
Michael.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
>I have used it on a project with 800GB of data + 40-50 concurrent users.
>
>
I wasn't directly involved in the project, but coworkers used it for
less data (100G maybe?) but substantially more concurrent users (100-200
or so).
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
I used iBatis 2 w/ 7000 concurent users and subsecond response time
(each users requested data from a page that had many tiles, 1up.com)
It's much faster than others becuase of a simple row based cache.
I am one of few SQL instructors certified to teach P&T, I would argue
it's by far the most scaleable. However... that does not abosolve you
from stress testing your DAO.
Larry Meadors wrote:
> Not that I have seen.
>
> I have used it on a project with 800GB of data + 40-50 concurrent users.
>
> Vic will probably chime in on this thread as well...
>
> Larry
>>
>>Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
--
.V
People are conversing... without posting their email or filling up their
mail box.
roomity.com <http://roomity.com/launch.jsp>
No sign up to read and search.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <st...@anotheria.net>.
I think the problem is rather that none of the dbs scales.
To scale you need something in front of db in the business layer
(middleware),
so it's no difference whether you use ibatis or sql. Could be nasty with
hibernate though,
at least you need to turn off the lazy loading...
leon
>
>
> On 7/25/05, Adam Hardy <ah...@cyberspaceroad.com> wrote:
> > Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com>.
Not that I have seen.
I have used it on a project with 800GB of data + 40-50 concurrent users.
Vic will probably chime in on this thread as well...
Larry
On 7/25/05, Adam Hardy <ah...@cyberspaceroad.com> wrote:
>
> Ted Husted on 22/07/05 18:12, wrote:
> >
> > The truth is that iBATIS is very easy to use, and there isn't much to
> > learn that you don't already know. Basically, iBATIS lets you put a
> > wrapper around SQL statements and use disconnected POJO objects for
> > input and output. The user guide covers all the essentials, and the
> > mailing list and wiki will help out with the rest.
>
> Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Adam Hardy <ah...@cyberspaceroad.com>.
Ted Husted on 22/07/05 18:12, wrote:
>
> The truth is that iBATIS is very easy to use, and there isn't much to
> learn that you don't already know. Basically, iBATIS lets you put a
> wrapper around SQL statements and use disconnected POJO objects for
> input and output. The user guide covers all the essentials, and the
> mailing list and wiki will help out with the rest.
Is there any truth to the urban myth that iBatis doesn't scale?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 7/22/05, Access Denied <ac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there any timely definitive literature available for iBATIS?
The definitive literature about iBATIS is published by the iBATIS team.
* http://ibatis.apache.org/downloads.html
Pro Spring also has an excellent chapter on iBATIS, and covers several
other top-notch tools.
The truth is that iBATIS is very easy to use, and there isn't much to
learn that you don't already know. Basically, iBATIS lets you put a
wrapper around SQL statements and use disconnected POJO objects for
input and output. The user guide covers all the essentials, and the
mailing list and wiki will help out with the rest.
-Ted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
ROFL!!! I think that is the funniest thing I've read all year!! I'm
definitely going to share that one!
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
Consulting / Mentoring / Freelance
EdgeTech, Inc.
http://www.edgetechservices.net/
678.910.8017
AIM: jmitchtx
MSN: jmitchell@apache.org
Skype: jmitchtx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Reumann" <st...@reumann.net>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <us...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
> Larry Meadors wrote the following on 7/22/2005 10:43 AM:
>> Books are not always a requirement...do you have a book on bicycling or
>> going to the bathroom? I guess some people do, but 99% of us do not
>> because we can do it "well enough" without them. If I want to be the next
>> Lance Armstrong or Rick Reumann however, I may need to pick one up. ;-)
>
> Larry, I do recommend you pick up my book on going to the bathroom. It has
> a lot useful information. I'm weak on technologies but my bathroom skills
> reign supreme. My first edition is here...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/94pg6
>
> (ummmm it is Friday right?:)
>
> --
> Rick
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Rick Reumann <st...@reumann.net>.
Larry Meadors wrote the following on 7/22/2005 10:43 AM:
> Books are not always a
> requirement...do you have a book on bicycling or going to the bathroom?
>
> I guess some people do, but 99% of us do not because we can do it "well
> enough" without them.
>
> If I want to be the next Lance Armstrong or Rick Reumann however, I may need
> to pick one up. ;-)
Larry, I do recommend you pick up my book on going to the bathroom. It
has a lot useful information. I'm weak on technologies but my bathroom
skills reign supreme. My first edition is here...
http://tinyurl.com/94pg6
(ummmm it is Friday right?:)
--
Rick
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 7/22/05, Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You just lack appreciation for the finer things in life Buddy.
>
> Classical Persian poetry is really quite good. ;-)
>
> On a serious note: Basing tech decisions on who has more books out is
> similar to making them on the company with the higher stock price. Sun:
> $3.85; MS: $26.44...gosh, what does that tell you? Books are not always a
> requirement...do you have a book on bicycling or going to the bathroom?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898156270/ref=pd_sxp_f/103-1864939-1630247?v=glance&s=books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com>.
You just lack appreciation for the finer things in life Buddy.
Classical Persian poetry is really quite good. ;-)
On a serious note: Basing tech decisions on who has more books out is
similar to making them on the company with the higher stock price. Sun:
$3.85; MS: $26.44...gosh, what does that tell you? Books are not always a
requirement...do you have a book on bicycling or going to the bathroom?
I guess some people do, but 99% of us do not because we can do it "well
enough" without them.
If I want to be the next Lance Armstrong or Rick Reumann however, I may need
to pick one up. ;-)
Larry
On 7/22/05, Access Denied <ac...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I bought James Elliott's "Hibernate" (O'Reilly Developer Notebook
> Series 2004), but a search for "iBATIS" on amazon returns books like
> "Pocket Guide to the Birds of Britain and North-West Europe" and "An
> Introduction To The Mystical Use of Classical Persian Poems." Is
> there any timely definitive literature available for iBATIS? In this
> realm, at least, it looks like Hibernate rules.
>
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Access Denied <ac...@gmail.com>.
I bought James Elliott's "Hibernate" (O'Reilly Developer Notebook
Series 2004), but a search for "iBATIS" on amazon returns books like
"Pocket Guide to the Birds of Britain and North-West Europe" and "An
Introduction To The Mystical Use of Classical Persian Poems." Is
there any timely definitive literature available for iBATIS? In this
realm, at least, it looks like Hibernate rules.
I have also recently noticed that any job opportunities specifying a
java persistence technology requires Hibernate; I have yet to run
across any requirements for iBATIS. Does Hibernate dominate in
business and government, too?
It has also been my general experience that clients demand impossible
deadlines, mainly, I think, because most do not have a clue when it
comes to SDLC and due diligence. I've worked at many companies and
agencies over the years and changing jobs has not changed the lack of
appreciation for the SDLC outside of IT. The comment that
"contractors are assumed to already know the technology" is true; the
facts of tech life is anathema to this assumption. For a personal
example, I was using java 1.2 and struts 1.0 on my last java job, but
now with java 5.0, struts 1.2 and spring, the landscape has changed
dramatically. We have no choice but to learn new stuff by the seat of
our pants.
~buddy
On 7/22/05, Ed Griebel <ed...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All too often that's how it works. If you say no, there are people
> that will say yes. Even if they end up taking as much time as you said
> it would, they've got the project, not you. Sometimes the short time
> is understandable, possibly due to uncontrollable situations, but most
> of the time it's due to poor (or too much!) planning. Many times the
> situation described below is a start to negotiations on budget, scope,
> resources, etc., but not always :-)
>
> -ed
>
> On 7/22/05, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
> > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > It has not been unusual to estimate three months
> > > for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
> > > business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".
> >
> >
> > I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?
> >
> > That is no respect and a bit like slavery!
> >
> >
> > .V
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca>.
Daniel Perry wrote:
>> Again, that's a situation where you are involving consultants.
>> Consultants
>> are expected to know the technology and not learn it on their customers'
>> time. When a company has its own IT staff, there are rarely
>> opportunities for somebody else to underbid them.
>
> Really? the majority of the work i do is for companies/organisations that
> have their own IT department.
>
> An example: the NHS
> They probably have more IT staff than most large software dev companies.
> If they were a bit more organised/centralised they could save themselves a
> packet, and stop using external companies (which rip them off then get the
> work done in india on the cheap - note we do neither of these!).
>
Sorry, that should have been "When a company _uses_ its own IT staff". I've
rarely worked anywhere where the IT dept competes against itself (it does
happen, and I think it's generally a bad thing). In fact, I too am working
for clients with their own IT staff. If the IT department has to compete
against outside contractors, it _should_ be an uphill battle. I'm bidding
on those contracts where I know I have expertise they don't have in-house.
I should be able to underbid them, and not waste time experimenting with
technologies. Often part of that contract will involve teaching the
in-house staff how to maintain the end-product - and next time I may not
have the edge in bidding that I had the first time.
--
derek
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
RE: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Daniel Perry <d....@netcase.co.uk>.
> Again, that's a situation where you are involving consultants.
> Consultants
> are expected to know the technology and not learn it on their customers'
> time. When a company has its own IT staff, there are rarely opportunities
> for somebody else to underbid them.
Really? the majority of the work i do is for companies/organisations that
have their own IT department.
An example: the NHS
They probably have more IT staff than most large software dev companies. If
they were a bit more organised/centralised they could save themselves a
packet, and stop using external companies (which rip them off then get the
work done in india on the cheap - note we do neither of these!).
Daniel.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca>.
Ed Griebel wrote:
> All too often that's how it works. If you say no, there are people
> that will say yes. Even if they end up taking as much time as you said
> it would, they've got the project, not you.
Again, that's a situation where you are involving consultants. Consultants
are expected to know the technology and not learn it on their customers'
time. When a company has its own IT staff, there are rarely opportunities
for somebody else to underbid them.
--
derek
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Ed Griebel <ed...@gmail.com>.
All too often that's how it works. If you say no, there are people
that will say yes. Even if they end up taking as much time as you said
it would, they've got the project, not you. Sometimes the short time
is understandable, possibly due to uncontrollable situations, but most
of the time it's due to poor (or too much!) planning. Many times the
situation described below is a start to negotiations on budget, scope,
resources, etc., but not always :-)
-ed
On 7/22/05, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> It has not been unusual to estimate three months
> > for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
> > business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".
>
>
> I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?
>
> That is no respect and a bit like slavery!
>
>
> .V
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
It has not been unusual to estimate three months
> for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
> business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it".
I need you to paint the house, but I only have budget to wash my hair?
That is no respect and a bit like slavery!
.V
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I'd have to agree... It has not been unusual to estimate three months
for something, and that's fairly realistic to do it right, and the
business says "nope, 1.5 months is when we need it". Well, what the
heck did you ask me for an estimate for in the first place then?!?
I'm a lead architect by the way, very much in a position to influence
deadlines, but at the end of the day IT is there to service the
business, not the other way around (unless you happen to work for an IT
company of course!), so, as Martin says, what's unreasonable?
Frank
Martin Gainty wrote:
> What qualifies as unreasonable? ..give the project lead 2 weeks and
> he/she cuts it to 2 days?
> BTW: Thats 99% of the companies Ive worked for..
> Where specifically do they NOT follow that behaviour?
> M-
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca>
> To: <us...@struts.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
>
>
>> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>>
>>> In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
>>> trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
>>> sweat the decisions! This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
>>> experience.
>>
>>
>> It depends what _your_ job is. If you're a consultant, you're
>> expected to
>> _know_ the technology, and the customer isn't paying for you to
>> experiment.
>> If you're an employee, I've never worked in a situation where you
>> don't get
>> the time to evaluate the right techniques.
>>
>>>
>>> Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
>>> important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
>>> one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always
>>> given.
>>
>>
>> Then go find a new job. There's lots of them for capable people - don't
>> work at places that put unreasonable demands on you.
>> --
>> derek
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
What qualifies as unreasonable? ..give the project lead 2 weeks and he/she
cuts it to 2 days?
BTW: Thats 99% of the companies Ive worked for..
Where specifically do they NOT follow that behaviour?
M-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Broughton" <ne...@pointerstop.ca>
To: <us...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 5:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
>> In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
>> trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
>> sweat the decisions! This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
>> experience.
>
> It depends what _your_ job is. If you're a consultant, you're expected to
> _know_ the technology, and the customer isn't paying for you to
> experiment.
> If you're an employee, I've never worked in a situation where you don't
> get
> the time to evaluate the right techniques.
>>
>> Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
>> important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
>> one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always given.
>
> Then go find a new job. There's lots of them for capable people - don't
> work at places that put unreasonable demands on you.
> --
> derek
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
> trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
> sweat the decisions! This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
> experience.
It depends what _your_ job is. If you're a consultant, you're expected to
_know_ the technology, and the customer isn't paying for you to experiment.
If you're an employee, I've never worked in a situation where you don't get
the time to evaluate the right techniques.
>
> Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
> important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
> one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always given.
Then go find a new job. There's lots of them for capable people - don't
work at places that put unreasonable demands on you.
--
derek
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Laurie Harper <la...@holoweb.net>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> The business wants that new product NOW. They want the efficiency gains,
> the added functionality, whatever, NOW. They would say it is extremely
> important. But, they tend to not really care too much about the
> technology. In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
> trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
> sweat the decisions! This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
> experience.
Budget, schedule, quality. You can constrain any two. Pick.
:-)
--
Laurie, Open Source advocate, Java geek and novice blogger:
http://www.holoweb.net/laurie
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Thu, July 21, 2005 1:25 pm, Ted Husted said:
> If the application isn't important enough to code some trials, then
> it's not important enough to sweat the decision either. Pick one and
> have at it.
At the risk of going off-topic, I have to say I really don't agree with
that statement. I think I understand what your saying, but my experience
would never allow me to say that.
The business wants that new product NOW. They want the efficiency gains,
the added functionality, whatever, NOW. They would say it is extremely
important. But, they tend to not really care too much about the
technology. In such cases, the application IS important enough to code
trials, but the business won't allow you to but they STILL want you to
sweat the decisions! This is a typical way of doing things, going by my
experience.
Even if its the largest initiative of the year for the company, the most
important project, there is still a deadline, usually and unreasonable
one, and taking the time to properly evaluate options isn't always given.
I certainly don't deny that doing as you say, coding a representative part
of the system both ways and then deciding, is the right way to go. But it
just isn't realistic, at least in my experience.
If you are in an environment where you can do that then you are a luckier
man than I and I say Ted is 100% right in such an environment. If you are
in, shall we say, a DIFFERENT environment, then having white papers and
comparisons and example apps that help you decide WITHOUT having to do as
Ted suggests is an extremely valuable thing. While its hard to separate
the propoganda from the objective statement, it is many times the only
choice.
Frank
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> People can make any system work, but they have to *want* to make it
> work.
>
That is deep! And very true.
.V
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
The problem is that there's not a one-size-fits-all answer to the question.
A lot depends on the size and scope of your application, the state of
your database, and the preferences of your developers.
Of the three, what your developers think might be the most important.
People can make any system work, but they have to *want* to make it
work.
The best answer, really, is to code a representative part of your
application either way, and then decide.
If the application isn't important enough to code some trials, then
it's not important enough to sweat the decision either. Pick one and
have at it.
HTH, Ted.
On 7/21/05, Access Denied <ac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alls,
>
> I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
> ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs. Would
> you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please? I
> think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
> Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
> no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com>.
"I like vi, it is way better than emacs."
Good grief, I hope we do not have another one of these three month flame-wars...
If you want ORM, use Hibernate.
If you want SQL mapping, use iBATIS.
Larry
On 7/21/05, Lee Harrington <le...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pick one. I use hibernate....but I'm sure iBatis is fine too. Either
> is preferable to writing your own.
>
> Lee
> On 7/21/05, Access Denied <ac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Alls,
> >
> > I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
> > ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs. Would
> > you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please? I
> > think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
> > Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
> > no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
> >
> > ~buddy
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Lee Harrington <le...@gmail.com>.
Pick one. I use hibernate....but I'm sure iBatis is fine too. Either
is preferable to writing your own.
Lee
On 7/21/05, Access Denied <ac...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alls,
>
> I can't seem to get a convincing answer to the question of using an
> ORM utilitiy, DB interface framework, or home-grown POJO DAOs. Would
> you guys with experience in these methodologies comment, please? I
> think I am spending too much time reading propaganda from iBatis and
> Hibernate, don't think JDO is ready for prime time yet, and it seems
> no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
>
> ~buddy
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Larry Meadors <la...@gmail.com>.
This is getting further and further off-topic, but we have started talking
about iBATIS 3.x as a more generic Data Mapper that would allow more than
JDBC mapping and SQL query management.
While that is still a way out, that would mean that anything where you have
this pattern:
(Business Layer) <--> (Data Layer) <--> (Data)
You would be able to use iBATIS in the data layer for JDBC, LDAP, Web
service, MP3s on a file system, or some wacked-out IBM interface (why do
they insist on doing that to us, anyway?). Heck, even Hibernate's HQL could
be used in this way, to eliminate the StringBuffer work that you have to do
with it now to build dynamic queries.
All of these should be usable with iBATIS3...and theoretically in Java or
.net, too.
Larry
On 7/22/05, Wendy Smoak <ja...@wendysmoak.com> wrote:
>
> No one except those of us who have no choice. :) I use a multi-valued
> database, IBM's UniData, which does not [easily] speak JDBC. (The DBMS
> can,
> but there is a third-party app sitting on top of it that severely limits
> my
> options.) My only way in is through IBM's proprietary Java API, UniObjects
> for Java.
>
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Wendy Smoak wrote:
>At one time I thought JDO was going to help, and "Bean Managed Persistence"
>has always sounded promising. Unfortunately, all of the examples are SQL
>based and I don't immediately see how to plug in this strange API that does
>not have Connection or DataSource.
>
>Has anyone else had to deal with a non-JDBC data source? Is there anything
>I can do to make this as painless as possible?
>
>
Percocet?
Whil working on a webapp<=>legacy embedded system project I was, in
effect, dealing with a non-JDBC/non-SQL database, and it was painful no
matter what I tried throwing at it. I ended up doing the same thing you
did, which was promptly thrown away when the embedded system was
replaced with a more reasonable one :/
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [OT] Hibernate vs. iBatis vs. POJO
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ja...@wendysmoak.com>.
Access Denied wrote:
> it seems no one is writing their own DAOs anymore.
No one except those of us who have no choice. :) I use a multi-valued
database, IBM's UniData, which does not [easily] speak JDBC. (The DBMS can,
but there is a third-party app sitting on top of it that severely limits my
options.) My only way in is through IBM's proprietary Java API, UniObjects
for Java.
Years ago I asked for help here, and was directed to the J2EE Data Access
Objects pattern. Which I implemented from the ground up, all the POJOs, all
the database-specific DAOs with interfaces in front of everything.
So when you guys argue about whether iBatis or Hibernate is better, believe
me, I'd be happy to be able to use EITHER one of them!
At one time I thought JDO was going to help, and "Bean Managed Persistence"
has always sounded promising. Unfortunately, all of the examples are SQL
based and I don't immediately see how to plug in this strange API that does
not have Connection or DataSource.
Has anyone else had to deal with a non-JDBC data source? Is there anything
I can do to make this as painless as possible?
--
Wendy Smoak
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org