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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org> on 2005/01/12 16:13:39 UTC
[VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Folks,
We discussed this a bit on the PMC list, and we now need some formal
decision in the open about this.
Over time, I found many people in France using Cocoon but not subscribed
to the ASF mailing lists. I asked myself the reason for this and
discussed with some of these people.
The main reason seems to be related to language problems. Many french
people aren't fluent in english, and although they can read english
(they have to anyway if they use Cocoon), they never write in english
and therefore don't consider themselves to be able to post on an
english-speaking list. Another problem is the list traffic. Receiving
loads of mails written in a language you don't master is frightening for
many people.
Therefore, a very large part of Cocoon users in France have no link with
the community and "just use" Cocoon. And because of that, they don't use
it very well, as their only source of information is - ahem - the docs.
So I've been thinking for some time about creating a french-speaking
mailing-list and website about Cocoon. I was fearing about community
fragmentation, but I don't think this is a real problem as these people
aren't currently part of the community. On the contrary, this may create
a prolongation of the Cocoon community, both because french-speaking
people subscribed the current lists will be on the new list, and also
because it may make people more confident about their ability to post
questions on the english lists.
Yesterday, I sent a quick poll about this on two french-speaking lists
where I know there are some Cocoon users and received a very positive
feedback, with about 10 people (disclaimer: they are *not* my customers)
saying they would participate actively.
Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our site,
and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not plan to
provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious work for
translating and syncing).
Bertrand already offered to moderate this list, and I of course also
volunteer for this.
Please cast your votes.
Here's my +1.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
...
> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
+0 (good idea, but I don't speak French, so I can't help much there ;-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Ralph Goers <Ra...@dslextreme.com>.
Sylvain Wallez said:
>
> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our site,
> and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not plan to
> provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious work for
> translating and syncing).
>
> Bertrand already offered to moderate this list, and I of course also
> volunteer for this.
>
> Please cast your votes.
>
> Here's my +1.
>
I have mixed feelings.
Ideally the web site should be internationalized. It's kind of interesting
that it isn't. I'd rather see that than a few pages in French, but if
that's the best we can do so be it.
As far as the list goes, I'm generally OK with it but it makes me wonder
what happens when someone wants a list in German, Italian, Spanish,
Klingon, or whatever. It would be a lot nicer if there was one list and
when you subscribed and specified you spoke French it translated it for
you (and back on replies as well). Sigh - well, I can dream.
Ralph
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Reinhard Poetz <re...@apache.org>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Folks,
>
> We discussed this a bit on the PMC list, and we now need some formal
> decision in the open about this.
>
> Over time, I found many people in France using Cocoon but not subscribed
> to the ASF mailing lists. I asked myself the reason for this and
> discussed with some of these people.
>
> The main reason seems to be related to language problems. Many french
> people aren't fluent in english, and although they can read english
> (they have to anyway if they use Cocoon), they never write in english
> and therefore don't consider themselves to be able to post on an
> english-speaking list. Another problem is the list traffic. Receiving
> loads of mails written in a language you don't master is frightening for
> many people.
>
> Therefore, a very large part of Cocoon users in France have no link with
> the community and "just use" Cocoon. And because of that, they don't use
> it very well, as their only source of information is - ahem - the docs.
>
> So I've been thinking for some time about creating a french-speaking
> mailing-list and website about Cocoon. I was fearing about community
> fragmentation, but I don't think this is a real problem as these people
> aren't currently part of the community. On the contrary, this may create
> a prolongation of the Cocoon community, both because french-speaking
> people subscribed the current lists will be on the new list, and also
> because it may make people more confident about their ability to post
> questions on the english lists.
>
> Yesterday, I sent a quick poll about this on two french-speaking lists
> where I know there are some Cocoon users and received a very positive
> feedback, with about 10 people (disclaimer: they are *not* my customers)
> saying they would participate actively.
>
> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our site,
> and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not plan to
> provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious work for
> translating and syncing).
>
> Bertrand already offered to moderate this list, and I of course also
> volunteer for this.
>
> Please cast your votes.
>
> Here's my +1.
+1
--
Reinhard
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 12 janv. 05, à 23:50, Sylvain Wallez a écrit :
> ...And I (and Bertrand?) don't want to spend precious time syncing
> translations...
I cannot volunteer for website translations to french ATM, sorry. If
you do some I'll certainly review them, but not more. I feel bad enough
about not being able to help more for our english docs;-)
But as I said, I'm available to co-moderate the new list.
-Bertrand
--
Bertrand Delacretaz
independent consultant, Lausanne, Switzerland
http://www.codeconsult.ch
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list-
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 13 janv. 05, à 15:28, Ralph Goers a écrit :
> ...I've used the Google translator for non-English docs before and
> while they are mostly readable I am sure they are nowhere as good as
> speaking in the native language...
That's the problem, automatic translations are IMHO far from being good
enough to allow people speaking only other languages to follow (and
participate in) discussions.
Just being readable is not good enough for a meaningful conversation,
or would be too painful for people to enjoy it and get value out of
such a system.
-Bertrand
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list-
Posted by Ralph Goers <Ra...@dslextreme.com>.
Rajaneesh wrote:
>How about having a single repository with english and use the google
>translater
>for translating from English to French?
>
>I used the following link http://www.google.com/language_tools to learn few
>words
>in French :-)
>
>Regards
>Rajaneesh
>
>
This is what I was proposing as well, although I'm not sure it is
technically possible. Having one list that translates to and from your
desired language is a much better approach than a list for each
language, if it is possible.. I'd prefer to see the google tool
investigated and discarded before adding the french list. I've used the
Google translator for non-English docs before and while they are mostly
readable I am sure they are nowhere as good as speaking in the native
language.
Ralph
RE: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list-
Posted by Rajaneesh <ra...@slk-soft.com>.
How about having a single repository with english and use the google
translater
for translating from English to French?
I used the following link http://www.google.com/language_tools to learn few
words
in French :-)
Regards
Rajaneesh
-----Original Message-----
From: Sylvain Wallez [mailto:sylvain@apache.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 4:21 AM
To: dev@cocoon.apache.org
Subject: Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
>> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
>> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our
>> site, and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not
>> plan to provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious
>> work for translating and syncing).
>>
>> Please cast your votes.
>
>
> +0.5 to the french list. "deja vu" is probably the only thing I can
> spell ;-)
>
> +0.5 to the pages on the website, if you promise:
> * Specify the version of the original english page you translated.
> Will allow people to see if pages are not in sync and what has
> changed.
Sure.
> * Keep them in sync.
> Good that introduction page does not change much ;-)
Absolutely :-) The translated pages should only be the intro pages (or
maybe a single page). People using Cocoon have to be able to read
english even if they can't write it.
And I (and Bertrand?) don't want to spend precious time syncing
translations.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
>> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
>> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our
>> site, and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not
>> plan to provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious
>> work for translating and syncing).
>>
>> Please cast your votes.
>
>
> +0.5 to the french list. "deja vu" is probably the only thing I can
> spell ;-)
>
> +0.5 to the pages on the website, if you promise:
> * Specify the version of the original english page you translated.
> Will allow people to see if pages are not in sync and what has
> changed.
Sure.
> * Keep them in sync.
> Good that introduction page does not change much ;-)
Absolutely :-) The translated pages should only be the intro pages (or
maybe a single page). People using Cocoon have to be able to read
english even if they can't write it.
And I (and Bertrand?) don't want to spend precious time syncing
translations.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@reverycodes.com>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our site,
> and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not plan to
> provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious work for
> translating and syncing).
>
> Please cast your votes.
+0.5 to the french list. "deja vu" is probably the only thing I can spell ;-)
+0.5 to the pages on the website, if you promise:
* Specify the version of the original english page you translated.
Will allow people to see if pages are not in sync and what has changed.
* Keep them in sync.
Good that introduction page does not change much ;-)
Vadim
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Markus Heussen <he...@asspaxx.de>.
I'm just a user and I know that I cannot vote. But from my point of view
english is the one and only IT worlds language, lets say the Lingua
Franca. You shouldn't seperate neither users nor developers experiences
in different mailing lists.
Markus
Torsten Curdt schrieb:
>>> Please cast your votes.
>
>
> Due to the possibility of a fraction
> of the user base I give only a +0
>
> I am wondering how they survive in the
> IT world. Anyway... if it helps...
>
> cheers
> --
> Torsten
>
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@apache.org>.
>> Please cast your votes.
Due to the possibility of a fraction
of the user base I give only a +0
I am wondering how they survive in the
IT world. Anyway... if it helps...
cheers
--
Torsten
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Bertrand already offered to moderate this list, and I of course also
> volunteer for this.
>
> Please cast your votes.
>
> Here's my +1.
+1
Tony
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 13 janv. 05, à 10:11, Antonio Gallardo a écrit :
> ...We could add to the list:
>
> es, it, sk, pl?
>
> God! ... this could be a real babel tower! ;-)
Sure. Let's start with the french (as we have a convincing leader in
Sylvain, and some helpers), and see what benefits it brings, we can
then decide for other languages provided people stand behind them.
-Bertrand
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
On Jue, 13 de Enero de 2005, 2:52, Leszek Gawron dijo:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
>> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
>> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our site,
>> and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not plan to
>> provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious work for
>> translating and syncing).
>>
>> Bertrand already offered to moderate this list, and I of course also
>> volunteer for this.
>>
>> Please cast your votes.
>>
>> Here's my +1.
> I wonder if creating another isolated user community is good in long run
> buf if you say they cannot contribute anyway because of the language
> barrier there's nothing better to be done.
>
> Another problem: what if someone rises the german speaking mailing list
> will we also agree?
We could add to the list:
es, it, sk, pl?
God! ... this could be a real babel tower! ;-)
-0.9
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo.
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Leszek Gawron wrote:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
>> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
>> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our
>> site, and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not
>> plan to provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious
>> work for translating and syncing).
>>
>> Bertrand already offered to moderate this list, and I of course also
>> volunteer for this.
>>
>> Please cast your votes.
>>
>> Here's my +1.
>
> I wonder if creating another isolated user community is good in long
> run buf if you say they cannot contribute anyway because of the
> language barrier there's nothing better to be done.
As I said, the purpose is to invite people that are currently totally
out of the community to participate to something that will be close to
the real community, thus educating them and showing them that opensource
is not only about downloading and using, but also about sharing.
My original idea was to create a community-friendly website outside the
ASF (cocoon-fr.org), but the initial discussion on the PMC list brought
the idea to host it here at the ASF to avoid both community and brand
fragmentation. Hence this vote.
> Another problem: what if someone rises the german speaking mailing
> list will we also agree?
Well, why not? That would be IMO better than http://www.cocoonforum.de/
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Leszek Gawron <lg...@mobilebox.pl>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our site,
> and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not plan to
> provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious work for
> translating and syncing).
>
> Bertrand already offered to moderate this list, and I of course also
> volunteer for this.
>
> Please cast your votes.
>
> Here's my +1.
I wonder if creating another isolated user community is good in long run
buf if you say they cannot contribute anyway because of the language
barrier there's nothing better to be done.
Another problem: what if someone rises the german speaking mailing list
will we also agree?
+0
--
Leszek Gawron lgawron@mobilebox.pl
Project Manager MobileBox sp. z o.o.
+48 (61) 855 06 67 http://www.mobilebox.pl
mobile: +48 (501) 720 812 fax: +48 (61) 853 29 65
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Folks,
>
> We discussed this a bit on the PMC list, and we now need some formal
> decision in the open about this.
>
> Over time, I found many people in France using Cocoon but not subscribed
> to the ASF mailing lists. I asked myself the reason for this and
> discussed with some of these people.
>
> The main reason seems to be related to language problems. Many french
> people aren't fluent in english, and although they can read english
> (they have to anyway if they use Cocoon), they never write in english
> and therefore don't consider themselves to be able to post on an
> english-speaking list. Another problem is the list traffic. Receiving
> loads of mails written in a language you don't master is frightening for
> many people.
>
> Therefore, a very large part of Cocoon users in France have no link with
> the community and "just use" Cocoon. And because of that, they don't use
> it very well, as their only source of information is - ahem - the docs.
>
> So I've been thinking for some time about creating a french-speaking
> mailing-list and website about Cocoon. I was fearing about community
> fragmentation, but I don't think this is a real problem as these people
> aren't currently part of the community. On the contrary, this may create
> a prolongation of the Cocoon community, both because french-speaking
> people subscribed the current lists will be on the new list, and also
> because it may make people more confident about their ability to post
> questions on the english lists.
>
> Yesterday, I sent a quick poll about this on two french-speaking lists
> where I know there are some Cocoon users and received a very positive
> feedback, with about 10 people (disclaimer: they are *not* my customers)
> saying they would participate actively.
>
> Therefore, I would like to create a new mailing list,
> users-fr@cocoon.apache.org and a few pages in french on the website.
> Those pages will be a translation of the introductory pages of our site,
> and pointers to the mailing list and its archives. I do not plan to
> provide a full translation of the website (lot of tedious work for
> translating and syncing).
>
> Bertrand already offered to moderate this list, and I of course also
> volunteer for this.
>
> Please cast your votes.
>
> Here's my +1.
+1 for users-fr@cocoon.apache.org
--
Stefano.
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Tim Larson <ti...@keow.org>.
On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 11:39:00AM +0100, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Matthew Langham wrote:
> ...
> >However I also see a problem in having additional "channels" in _any_ other
> >language because it would essentially mean that people would probably only
> >post to their native list (which again is understandable). But this would
> >eventually reduce the common discussion on the main list.
>
> I think that if a person knows English well enough, he would still post
> in English, because he knows that on that list he will find more help
> and developers. This is just about giving an extra chance to people that
> would not participate in English, still to participate.
>
> Moreover it's an experiment, nothing is set in stone, let's see how it
> works out and then decide. Community refactoring :-)
+1 I think it is a good experiment. Lets try it and just keep
an eye on how it develops. It could be a big win if the list
works (community growth, more people helped), and if not at
least our risk is low trying it with only one additional
language at first.
--Tim Larson
Re: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Matthew Langham wrote:
...
> However I also see a problem in having additional "channels" in _any_ other
> language because it would essentially mean that people would probably only
> post to their native list (which again is understandable). But this would
> eventually reduce the common discussion on the main list.
I think that if a person knows English well enough, he would still post
in English, because he knows that on that list he will find more help
and developers. This is just about giving an extra chance to people that
would not participate in English, still to participate.
Moreover it's an experiment, nothing is set in stone, let's see how it
works out and then decide. Community refactoring :-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
RE: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Mark Lundquist <ml...@wrinkledog.com>.
> From: Sylvain Wallez [mailto:sylvain@apache.org]
>[..snip..]
>
> Therefore, a very large part of Cocoon users in France have no link with
> the community and "just use" Cocoon. And because of that, they don't use
> it very well, as their only source of information is - ahem - the docs.
Ouch. Well, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I can't imagine trying to
"just use" Cocoon without the mailing lists.
+1
-mark
RE: [VOTE] Creation of a french-speaking users list
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
>
> Please cast your votes.
>
Hmm...this is really a point for discussion. I certainly understand the
reluctance of non-English speaking people to write in English to the list
(we get similar Emails from our German speaking customers for example).
However I also see a problem in having additional "channels" in _any_ other
language because it would essentially mean that people would probably only
post to their native list (which again is understandable). But this would
eventually reduce the common discussion on the main list.
I personally have nothing against non-English posts to this list - and often
people are kind enough to comment and add a rough translation which in the
end helps everyone. Also, people on the list may be able to help out even if
they only have a very basic knowledge for the language (and I know Gianugo
is amazed by my Italian skills :-))
So, my suggestion would be to encourage non-native-English speaking people
to post in English (and make it clear that we aren't a list of English
teachers) and if those people still feel uncomfortable then they can post in
their language. Lengthy discussions in a non-English language could then be
taken off list anyway.
However, I do think non-English translations of the Website are a good idea
if they can be held in sync.
Matthew