You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to user@struts.apache.org by st...@gmail.com on 2009/06/07 15:24:20 UTC
Training
Hey Wes and all --
I have thinking about the Wes training thread and would like to get your
feedback. Do you guys think training can continue to cost what it has
historically? The reason I ask is that I too have considered dropping down
a gear and doing training for a living. However, I get the feeling that
techies now expect training to cost exactly what their software cost -
*nothing!* Open source training if you will. Are you getting this
impression? When I mentioned online training in my follow-up to your
thread, I had no idea folks were going to say "yeah, and it should also be
free!" I'm seeing the tide switch and curious to get your take. I have
considered training & support the avenue to picking up some coin relative to
FOSS, and now I wonder if this too is expected to be free.
P.S. You give em an inch and they want a mile
Scott
RE: Training
Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
Hi Scott
to recap a very well known Opensource Database provider who generate revenue off customisations of a FOSS DB
http://www.mysql.com
unfortunately this particular opensource database because of <unforeseen factors> founders Scott McNealy and Bill Joy's have seen their revenues fallen dramatically in the last 2 years
the end result was the parent which took on <a FOSS entity losing money> forced the parent entiry to look for rescuer (fortunately the most profitable database corporation on the planet saw their planet and threw a lifeline)
In a robust economy opensource works great..freebie core modules are being developed by engineers on their off-hours while customisations to code to paying clients keep the lights on and food on the table
BUT in a down economy everybody wants free
personally i would be able to justify if we're <re>training the graveyard shift at local GM plant that was just closed..
on the other hand we've seen new engineers that work for the world's leading
tech companies (supposedly american company that was started by Thomas Watson in NY some 75 years ago) saying they were just hired (on the other side of the planet) and demand(not request) a free solution from one of the unemployed masses here?
FOSS
the most comprehensive definition of FOSS is available at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open_source_software as
"Free and open source software, also F/OSS, FOSS, or FLOSS (free/libre/open source software) is software which is liberally licensed to grant the right of users to study, change, and improve its design through the availability of its source code.
This approach has gained both momentum and acceptance as the potential
benefits have been increasingly recognized by both individuals and
corporate players"
Individuals benefit because cost of entry to the market is 0..there is a steep learning curve but for those with
lots of time and a computer you can learn how a FOSS project works in a year or 2
Corporate Players only benefit when there are customisations provided to paying clients. An example is if you have 2mill code..1mill in free core ..the remainder is your customisation money-maker..but how do you enforce getting paid for customisations or new features and functions when most of the people demanding free are outside your borders..
thats why I think a rock-solid SSL secure site for pre-paid training modules would work best..there is no need to worry about revenue because
1)it was a small amount of money to begin with
2)you have already collected the money meaning no opportunity for man-in-the-middle rerouting of funds
http://www.blackboard.com/Commerce-Security/Transact-Resources/Whats-New/Release-3.aspx
whats your take?
Martin Gainty
______________________________________________
Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung
Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:24:20 -0500
> Subject: Training
> From: stanlick@gmail.com
> To: user@struts.apache.org
>
> Hey Wes and all --
>
> I have thinking about the Wes training thread and would like to get your
> feedback. Do you guys think training can continue to cost what it has
> historically? The reason I ask is that I too have considered dropping down
> a gear and doing training for a living. However, I get the feeling that
> techies now expect training to cost exactly what their software cost -
> *nothing!* Open source training if you will. Are you getting this
> impression? When I mentioned online training in my follow-up to your
> thread, I had no idea folks were going to say "yeah, and it should also be
> free!" I'm seeing the tide switch and curious to get your take. I have
> considered training & support the avenue to picking up some coin relative to
> FOSS, and now I wonder if this too is expected to be free.
>
> P.S. You give em an inch and they want a mile
>
> Scott
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009
RE: Training
Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:51:29 -0500
> Subject: Re: Training
> From: stanlick@gmail.com
> To: user@struts.apache.org
>
> I suspected this sort of training dialog was just beneath the surface. The
> sad matter of fact is both Wes and Martin are spot on from each of their
> perspectives. Wes works his tail off (I know because I have been reviewing
> his new book) and Martin is a master technologist in business.
MG>look at mysql ..best DB on the market but barely enough rev to keep lights on
MG>what happened was the brilliant engineers at mysql gave away too much
MG>without understanding you still need to make money..you need paying customers!
So who makes
> the better argument? Actually, I think they are both right on and this is
> what scares me.
>
> 1) Quality training by a seasoned professional is expensive and time
> consuming to design and develop - notice the word design. Being prompted
> through a PowerPoint presentation is only the tip of the iceberg and you
> only know this is you have designed and developed training materials. As
> Wes points out, you first need to know the topic inside out (time, time,
> time) and then be a great communicator. I have seen my fair share of
> seasoned pros on a topic who could not explain it to another human in twelve
> months! Next, you need good tools and the time to learn them. Mastering an
> effective graphics applications is no walk in the park yet illustrations are
> effective and necessary. When it comes to lab materials, their cumulative
> nature throughout a course, and the degree of difficulty that neither runs
> the class twelve hours a day nor leaves the students twiddling their thumbs
> is an *art* not a *science*.
MG>you only know what students learned by getting feedback (chatting or HW)
MG>in the public sector they use pop quizes but students are not fond of that
MG>perhaps bruce can elaborate what feedback mechanism he uses?
And the 201 level class that follows the 101
> level must not only take all of this into account, but also leverage the
> prerequisite course itself to minimize mental gear changing and maximize
> content and context flow.
MG>i present inheritance today i use it for designing GL to Subledger accounting
MG>or OrderHeader to Order LI design tommorrow i have validated they know the MG>concept of inheritance..onto to encapsulation..
MG>then i'll toss in a struts Action with namespace for a more concrete example
> 2) Now to Martin's argument. Joe public looks around (pronounced Google)
> and expects to find free or dirt cheap videos, presentations including
> sample code, and emails where they can get free help. I call this theme
> "you get what you pay for." I have followed a couple JQuery training
> avenues that fit this mold and after several hours jumping around, I can't
> hit my ass with both hands! The next JQuery freebie I click on suggests
> techniques that are in direct opposition to yesterdays free lecture! To
> paint an anology let's suppose a Struts 2 newbie follows a freebie course at
> Joe's Training Emporium where Joe has barely figured out how to code
> himself. But hey, his stuff contains jars enough to compile so he must be
> an expert! Between the kick-ass Flash graphics his brother-in-law put
> together and an ass-load of sample code, you now have a web shopping site
> with JSP files and Action classes that average 385 lines of code in each
> execute() method -- but it works! You ground your mental web around this
> bag-of-ass design/code and are later asked to make a couple simple changes
> to it. Let me speed the analogy up a little so I am not late for work this
> morning -- after several weeks of spinning and subsequently being fired
> because you have been revealed as the hack you are, you decide (hey
> unemployment causes you to do creative things) to actually drop a few bucks
> on education, either through published material or a formal class. You
> realize their are tiers and dependency injection. You see that rolling
> hand-coded JDBC code is no longer in style and that while writing Java code
> on a web page is possible, it comes back to bite your ass like a coiled up
> cobra!
MG>taking a training class in tapestry when i know the only apps written are in OR
MG>maybe no
MG>taking a training class in JSF when i know the only apps written are around santa
MG>clara..maybe not
MG>taking a Spring training class from one of the world's masters Juergen-sign me up!
MG>jsp JDBC with no connection-pools or resource config is NOT for the light o'heart!
MG>trying to shoe-horn that into webapp server will be a real-challenge
> Great and effective training is expensive and time consuming. My
> step-father is a single proprietor plumber with one of those cool vans full
> of tools and we often discuss his investment in his business. If he does not
> dig deep into his own pocket to keep himself and his tool van sharply honed
> for his customers, his competitor will put him out of business. Does he
> like spending money no training and tools? He says its cheaper to pay his
> dues to remain a professional than it would be to buy a freeezer and convert
> over to an ice-cream and lollipop vendor.
>
> You decide -- professional or a clown driving a musical van.
>
> Peace,
> Scott
>
> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > <font size="1">you cannot guarantee something you have no control</font>
> > scott could you make sure that gets into brochure?
> >
> > vielen danke/thanks,
> > Martin
> > ______________________________________________
> > Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung
> >
> > Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene
> > Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte
> > Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht
> > dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine
> > rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von
> > E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:38:22 -0400
> > > From: newton.dave@yahoo.com
> > > To: user@struts.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Training
> > >
> > > Martin Gainty wrote:
> > > > wes-I cant speak for Motorola 64k code (MAC) as i have yet to coded
> > > > for that platform but it sounds challenging does Struts work on
> > Motorola
> > >
> > > ....
> > >
> > > Old Macs used the 68K. Struts works on Java and in app containers, not
> > > on specific processors.
> > >
> > > And coding for the 68K is substantially less challenging than the x86.
> > >
> > > > Price:
> > > > the instructor needs to readily demonstrate if you take my course you
> > > > will double your output with facts and figures and testimony to
> > justify..
> > >
> > > That is not possible. You cannot guarantee something you cannot control.
> > > I can think of several people that I could sit down for a week-long
> > > course and they'd still be worthless as developers at the end of it.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage.
> > http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009
RE: Training
Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
MG>hopefully brief comment!
> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 09:19:56 -0400
> Subject: Re: Training
> From: wesw@wantii.com
> To: user@struts.apache.org
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:51 AM, <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > Great and effective training is expensive and time consuming. My
> > step-father is a single proprietor plumber with one of those cool vans full
> > of tools and we often discuss his investment in his business. If he does not
> > dig deep into his own pocket to keep himself and his tool van sharply honed
> > for his customers, his competitor will put him out of business. Does he
> > like spending money no training and tools? He says its cheaper to pay his
> > dues to remain a professional than it would be to buy a freeezer and convert
> > over to an ice-cream and lollipop vendor.
> >
> > You decide -- professional or a clown driving a musical van.
> >
>
> This analogy is one I often make... Compared to most industries, IT is
> in its infancy. Plumbers, electricians, masons, etc. have unions. Not
> that I'm pro-union, but the way these unions operate are different
> than say the autoworkers union. For one, you can't just buy the van
> and tools and expect to open up a plumbing business, these unions
> protect their industry to the extent that you have to complete an
> apprenticeship before being "in the club" that gets to bid on the jobs
> that will put food on your table. Now, I could be completely wrong on
> how it works, as this is my outside-view on it (I don't have any close
> friends or family in one of these industries). But, the unions also
> set pricing so that it is fair to the union members. You can probably
> open the phone book and find a low-cost plumber, but its hard since
> good plumbers (read - qualified to be in the union) want to retain
> their status and ability to bid the big jobs, so they won't stab their
> compatriots by undercutting them on price.
MG>a subcontractor to a subcontractor to a subcontractror
MG>100 iterations later no wonder why the agency only pays min wage!
MG>i've worked with folks who wiresharked your email thru their router
MG>and advertise their cutrate service to your client BEFORE you have a chance!
>
> Most of these practices seem unfair,
MG>problem when leave the US border and copyrighted material becomes meaningless
> when you're on the outside
> looking in, but in IT we spend quite a bit of time dealing with the
> lack of governing body.
MG>their is the JCP who create the JSRs but they dont enforce
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had to
> deal with some business owner's relative's mistakes. Heck, I even have
> an uncle who fixes computers for a few neighbors and thinks I should
> consult him on the book I'm writing.
MG>getting feedback from the field always a good idea!
>It's not that I think we should
> start an exclusive club, but I work hard to avoid the situation where
> I risk my reputation on a project/job that is doomed from the start.
MG>try working for someone where the prev contractor sabotages the doc/code
> Certifications became popular a while ago, but went out almost as
> quick as they came in since it became easy to study for the test and
> not learn the material. I would suggest that a college education is a
> good start, but their are multiple problems there - 1) colleges can't
> keep up with technology.
MG>my biggest gripe of the brick and mortar schools ..they barely cover J2EE
MG>most of the technology stacks involve heavy ide (DotNet)
MG>and when they do venture to J2EE they teach 1.x versions including Struts
> When a student declares a major, there is
> sort of an agreement that the list of classes he agrees to take, if
> passed, will earn him a degree. 4 years later, how many new features
> have been introduced to Java (all of our favorite language), and Java
> is fairly stable in this respect.
MG>agree.. annotations and generic classes were the last 2 features i've seen
2) Some of the best engineers I know
> weren't CS majors, or did not finish. I never finished school, I've
> been to 4 different schools and had 4 different majors but career and
> family obligations have caused me to postpone finishing over and over
> again. I've also worked with English and Music majors that were great
> programmers, beating the pants off of some of the CS Masters' I've
> worked with.
MG>yep.. dale and yourself comes to mind
> Anyhow, it's a tough problem that we won't likely solve on this list,
> but I eagerly watch the industry as it evolves.
MG>competition is a good thing..but outright disloyalty needs to be mitigated
MG>Good Analysis!
> -Wes
MG>MG
>
> --
> Wes Wannemacher
> Author - Struts 2 In Practice
> Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
> http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009
Re: Training
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:51 AM, <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> Great and effective training is expensive and time consuming. My
> step-father is a single proprietor plumber with one of those cool vans full
> of tools and we often discuss his investment in his business. If he does not
> dig deep into his own pocket to keep himself and his tool van sharply honed
> for his customers, his competitor will put him out of business. Does he
> like spending money no training and tools? He says its cheaper to pay his
> dues to remain a professional than it would be to buy a freeezer and convert
> over to an ice-cream and lollipop vendor.
>
> You decide -- professional or a clown driving a musical van.
>
This analogy is one I often make... Compared to most industries, IT is
in its infancy. Plumbers, electricians, masons, etc. have unions. Not
that I'm pro-union, but the way these unions operate are different
than say the autoworkers union. For one, you can't just buy the van
and tools and expect to open up a plumbing business, these unions
protect their industry to the extent that you have to complete an
apprenticeship before being "in the club" that gets to bid on the jobs
that will put food on your table. Now, I could be completely wrong on
how it works, as this is my outside-view on it (I don't have any close
friends or family in one of these industries). But, the unions also
set pricing so that it is fair to the union members. You can probably
open the phone book and find a low-cost plumber, but its hard since
good plumbers (read - qualified to be in the union) want to retain
their status and ability to bid the big jobs, so they won't stab their
compatriots by undercutting them on price.
Most of these practices seem unfair, when you're on the outside
looking in, but in IT we spend quite a bit of time dealing with the
lack of governing body. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has had to
deal with some business owner's relative's mistakes. Heck, I even have
an uncle who fixes computers for a few neighbors and thinks I should
consult him on the book I'm writing. It's not that I think we should
start an exclusive club, but I work hard to avoid the situation where
I risk my reputation on a project/job that is doomed from the start.
Certifications became popular a while ago, but went out almost as
quick as they came in since it became easy to study for the test and
not learn the material. I would suggest that a college education is a
good start, but their are multiple problems there - 1) colleges can't
keep up with technology. When a student declares a major, there is
sort of an agreement that the list of classes he agrees to take, if
passed, will earn him a degree. 4 years later, how many new features
have been introduced to Java (all of our favorite language), and Java
is fairly stable in this respect. 2) Some of the best engineers I know
weren't CS majors, or did not finish. I never finished school, I've
been to 4 different schools and had 4 different majors but career and
family obligations have caused me to postpone finishing over and over
again. I've also worked with English and Music majors that were great
programmers, beating the pants off of some of the CS Masters' I've
worked with.
Anyhow, it's a tough problem that we won't likely solve on this list,
but I eagerly watch the industry as it evolves.
-Wes
--
Wes Wannemacher
Author - Struts 2 In Practice
Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: Training
Posted by st...@gmail.com.
I suspected this sort of training dialog was just beneath the surface. The
sad matter of fact is both Wes and Martin are spot on from each of their
perspectives. Wes works his tail off (I know because I have been reviewing
his new book) and Martin is a master technologist in business. So who makes
the better argument? Actually, I think they are both right on and this is
what scares me.
1) Quality training by a seasoned professional is expensive and time
consuming to design and develop - notice the word design. Being prompted
through a PowerPoint presentation is only the tip of the iceberg and you
only know this is you have designed and developed training materials. As
Wes points out, you first need to know the topic inside out (time, time,
time) and then be a great communicator. I have seen my fair share of
seasoned pros on a topic who could not explain it to another human in twelve
months! Next, you need good tools and the time to learn them. Mastering an
effective graphics applications is no walk in the park yet illustrations are
effective and necessary. When it comes to lab materials, their cumulative
nature throughout a course, and the degree of difficulty that neither runs
the class twelve hours a day nor leaves the students twiddling their thumbs
is an *art* not a *science*. And the 201 level class that follows the 101
level must not only take all of this into account, but also leverage the
prerequisite course itself to minimize mental gear changing and maximize
content and context flow.
2) Now to Martin's argument. Joe public looks around (pronounced Google)
and expects to find free or dirt cheap videos, presentations including
sample code, and emails where they can get free help. I call this theme
"you get what you pay for." I have followed a couple JQuery training
avenues that fit this mold and after several hours jumping around, I can't
hit my ass with both hands! The next JQuery freebie I click on suggests
techniques that are in direct opposition to yesterdays free lecture! To
paint an anology let's suppose a Struts 2 newbie follows a freebie course at
Joe's Training Emporium where Joe has barely figured out how to code
himself. But hey, his stuff contains jars enough to compile so he must be
an expert! Between the kick-ass Flash graphics his brother-in-law put
together and an ass-load of sample code, you now have a web shopping site
with JSP files and Action classes that average 385 lines of code in each
execute() method -- but it works! You ground your mental web around this
bag-of-ass design/code and are later asked to make a couple simple changes
to it. Let me speed the analogy up a little so I am not late for work this
morning -- after several weeks of spinning and subsequently being fired
because you have been revealed as the hack you are, you decide (hey
unemployment causes you to do creative things) to actually drop a few bucks
on education, either through published material or a formal class. You
realize their are tiers and dependency injection. You see that rolling
hand-coded JDBC code is no longer in style and that while writing Java code
on a web page is possible, it comes back to bite your ass like a coiled up
cobra!
Great and effective training is expensive and time consuming. My
step-father is a single proprietor plumber with one of those cool vans full
of tools and we often discuss his investment in his business. If he does not
dig deep into his own pocket to keep himself and his tool van sharply honed
for his customers, his competitor will put him out of business. Does he
like spending money no training and tools? He says its cheaper to pay his
dues to remain a professional than it would be to buy a freeezer and convert
over to an ice-cream and lollipop vendor.
You decide -- professional or a clown driving a musical van.
Peace,
Scott
On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> <font size="1">you cannot guarantee something you have no control</font>
> scott could you make sure that gets into brochure?
>
> vielen danke/thanks,
> Martin
> ______________________________________________
> Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung
>
> Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene
> Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte
> Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht
> dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine
> rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von
> E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:38:22 -0400
> > From: newton.dave@yahoo.com
> > To: user@struts.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Training
> >
> > Martin Gainty wrote:
> > > wes-I cant speak for Motorola 64k code (MAC) as i have yet to coded
> > > for that platform but it sounds challenging does Struts work on
> Motorola
> >
> > ....
> >
> > Old Macs used the 68K. Struts works on Java and in app containers, not
> > on specific processors.
> >
> > And coding for the 68K is substantially less challenging than the x86.
> >
> > > Price:
> > > the instructor needs to readily demonstrate if you take my course you
> > > will double your output with facts and figures and testimony to
> justify..
> >
> > That is not possible. You cannot guarantee something you cannot control.
> > I can think of several people that I could sit down for a week-long
> > course and they'd still be worthless as developers at the end of it.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage.
> http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009
RE: Training
Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
<font size="1">you cannot guarantee something you have no control</font>
scott could you make sure that gets into brochure?
vielen danke/thanks,
Martin
______________________________________________
Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung
Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:38:22 -0400
> From: newton.dave@yahoo.com
> To: user@struts.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Training
>
> Martin Gainty wrote:
> > wes-I cant speak for Motorola 64k code (MAC) as i have yet to coded
> > for that platform but it sounds challenging does Struts work on Motorola
>
> ....
>
> Old Macs used the 68K. Struts works on Java and in app containers, not
> on specific processors.
>
> And coding for the 68K is substantially less challenging than the x86.
>
> > Price:
> > the instructor needs to readily demonstrate if you take my course you
> > will double your output with facts and figures and testimony to justify..
>
> That is not possible. You cannot guarantee something you cannot control.
> I can think of several people that I could sit down for a week-long
> course and they'd still be worthless as developers at the end of it.
>
> Dave
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage.
http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009
Re: Training
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@yahoo.com>.
Martin Gainty wrote:
> wes-I cant speak for Motorola 64k code (MAC) as i have yet to coded
> for that platform but it sounds challenging does Struts work on Motorola
....
Old Macs used the 68K. Struts works on Java and in app containers, not
on specific processors.
And coding for the 68K is substantially less challenging than the x86.
> Price:
> the instructor needs to readily demonstrate if you take my course you
> will double your output with facts and figures and testimony to justify..
That is not possible. You cannot guarantee something you cannot control.
I can think of several people that I could sit down for a week-long
course and they'd still be worthless as developers at the end of it.
Dave
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
RE: Training
Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
trainers eat,work and sleep their topic 24/7
in 02 the market here dropped to 0 i took on teaching a Electrical Design course where i was designing a circuits thank GOD for Mathworks Cad program to put forth a good design but I dont design circuits for Trident class subs as some of my class members worked at GD were doing on a daily basis
for me going to the books repeatedly allowed me to stay *one step ahead* of the course curriculae
granted Struts is extensive (but not as extensive as Spring) so most of us can still get 8 hours/sleep per nite
Rod and Juergen are handling SpringFactories,MVC pattern design and prototypeVsSingleton types, swapping Struts taglibs for JSF and vice-versa while getting by on 2 hours/sleep and speaking at least 3 different languages!
the better instructors gauge class flow and say I'll get back to you and hold to that promise that you should never leave a student hanging
granted we cant all be stephen hawking but you would need to adhere to these basic requirements
0)order the classes to build on each other ..start with funamentals and iterate forward using the fundamentals
1)teach a subject every week that the students can use in their present situation
2)keep the typeA students occupied with 'special projects'
try to get a J2EE project operational on Mono on BSDUnix will keep your most most driven engineers and techs
wes-I cant speak for Motorola 64k code (MAC) as i have yet to coded for that platform but it sounds challenging
does Struts work on Motorola
Price:
Bruce works in a subsidised public environment..the rest of us are closer to corporate life where ALL costs are scrutinised down to the penny
since budgets are extremely tight..the instructor needs to readily demonstrate if you take my course you will double your output with facts and figures and testimony to justify..5,000 is too much except for the likes of Gates and Ellison
Wes:
our new prez is anxious to retrain laid off workers to get them working again..Ohio has a potential market of
thousands of new recruits.. most schools have at least 1 individual who handles how to get money from bureaucracy
FAFSA/Pell/BEOG ..i would look at US Dept of Education as a viable funding source for your location.. some links:
http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2009/0108_stimulus_package_burtless.aspx
http://www.educationgrant.com/blog/
Scott et al: like to hear some more about this as this is a GREAT idea
Anyone else?
Martin Gainty
______________________________________________
Verzicht und Vertraulichkeitanmerkung/Note de déni et de confidentialité
Diese Nachricht ist vertraulich. Sollten Sie nicht der vorgesehene Empfaenger sein, so bitten wir hoeflich um eine Mitteilung. Jede unbefugte Weiterleitung oder Fertigung einer Kopie ist unzulaessig. Diese Nachricht dient lediglich dem Austausch von Informationen und entfaltet keine rechtliche Bindungswirkung. Aufgrund der leichten Manipulierbarkeit von E-Mails koennen wir keine Haftung fuer den Inhalt uebernehmen.
Ce message est confidentiel et peut être privilégié. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire prévu, nous te demandons avec bonté que pour satisfaire informez l'expéditeur. N'importe quelle diffusion non autorisée ou la copie de ceci est interdite. Ce message sert à l'information seulement et n'aura pas n'importe quel effet légalement obligatoire. Étant donné que les email peuvent facilement être sujets à la manipulation, nous ne pouvons accepter aucune responsabilité pour le contenu fourni.
> From: wesw@wantii.com
> To: user@struts.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Training
> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:12:34 -0400
>
> On Sunday 07 June 2009 09:24:20 am stanlick@gmail.com wrote:
> > Hey Wes and all --
> >
> > I have thinking about the Wes training thread and would like to get your
> > feedback. Do you guys think training can continue to cost what it has
> > historically? The reason I ask is that I too have considered dropping down
> > a gear and doing training for a living. However, I get the feeling that
> > techies now expect training to cost exactly what their software cost -
> > *nothing!* Open source training if you will. Are you getting this
> > impression? When I mentioned online training in my follow-up to your
> > thread, I had no idea folks were going to say "yeah, and it should also be
> > free!" I'm seeing the tide switch and curious to get your take. I have
> > considered training & support the avenue to picking up some coin relative
> > to FOSS, and now I wonder if this too is expected to be free.
> >
> > P.S. You give em an inch and they want a mile
> >
> > Scott
>
> This is where I have to put on my "business" hat and take off my engineer's
> hat for a minute. Personally, I can contribute to OSS simply because it makes
> economic sense for me. Being an independent (read, non-Fortune-100) developer,
> I can showcase my talents and make myself relevant in a scenario where karma
> and merit help you get ahead. Now, I don't directly get paid for contributing
> to Struts, but the karma and merit are the best form of advertising I've seen
> for the things I do. A few years ago I presented to a potential client a
> scenario where they could contract me, long-term, and I would help them to
> create a deliver a product that they had seen as pie-in-the-sky for a while. I
> couldn't quite make it work out. Last year, we re-visited the same scenario,
> but this time I came to the table with the same resume, but few line items
> added (the OSS projects I am now a contributor to). This closed the deal.
>
> I generally subscribe to the F/L OSS philosophy, but my kids have to eat too.
> Training, like a college education should be expensive, simply because there
> is more to it than classroom time. Materials should take a while to gather
> into a presentable format. Instructors should be experienced in the art of
> content delivery and the instructor should have some name recognition.
>
> These factors sort of brought me to the notion that I might be a good
> instructor. I have experience teaching, I taught at a community college for
> years. Add to that, I am one of the struts developers and you should have a
> compelling argument for choosing me as a trainer. Scott, you probably fall
> pretty close in line with my notion because you co-authored Struts 2 In Action
> and you have worked as a trainer in the past.
>
> What bugs me is that I searched online for struts training and found some
> things offered, but I had not heard of many of these companies. Not that I
> think these guys couldn't do a good job, but I think that people offering
> training should at least be a part of this community. I have one of those
> photographic memories :) so I would recognize names of people and companies if
> they were regular posters here or at dev@struts.a.o. I sort of feel like IT
> training is becoming like local dance and martial arts studios. Someone sees
> that there is a potential market and decides to exploit it by charging the
> market price for delivering sub-par quality material.
>
> I have been to training from both sides, one training where I ended up
> answering questions from the crowd (as a participant... yep, it was that bad).
> And I also attended a Sybase training once from one of the Sybase engineers.
> The Sybase training was worth every penny and then some. At the time, it was a
> training paid for by the company who employed me, but had I known the quality,
> I would have paid out of my own pocket since the material was relevant to what
> I was doing. (this was a 5-day training with the typical $5k price tag)
>
> Personally, I think companies would approve training if they knew that they
> would be getting their money's worth. But, I also think that right now would
> be about as hard as it could get because budgets are so tight. I am not
> necessarily convinced that a low-price online training will work for me
> because I would have to procure the necessary equipment and software to create
> something presentable. I could just whip something together, but I personally
> am one of those guys that if I do something, I do it all-the-way or not at
> all. I feel like there are a few risks with the glue-together low-price
> modules of online training. 1. I think someone mentioned that taking a $35
> training would lead to more than a few relationships that start out like this,
> "hey, I paid for your [$35] beginner struts training, now you owe me and I
> need you to help me write a MacOS clone in Struts" I always feel like every
> relationship should be professional, so if I prefer to set the bar a little
> higher. It's not that money = professional, but having been in this industry a
> while, I'm sure many of you know that the best people to work for and with are
> the people who have a clue about the nature of our work. Anyone that would
> have said "clue" would be someone that knows that IT training costs what it
> costs. 2. Struts is a niche market. There are too many options for smaller
> quick projects. I would feel that the low-cost online training might work
> better for ASP, PHP or Rails. Most of the Struts projects I have seen are not
> get-it-out-quick and the developers are not ramped up quickly on Struts.
> Struts takes a certain amount of time to learn. Developers that haven't worked
> on a larger team on a mature project don't seem to appreciate Model 2 and the
> value of being able to utilize POJOs at the various layers. I think a lot of
> you may have encountered that person or candidate on your team that might have
> put something like struts on their resume because they took a training and
> when tasked with a real task they fail miserably because they don't know
> quite what they claim. I wouldn't want myself associated with the training
> that fed that mentality. In a classroom, you can answer the questions and as a
> good instructor, pick up on someone's lack of fundamental understanding and
> work on that.
>
> To be honest Scott, I'm not convinced that being a trainer would work for me.
> Mostly because of my geographical location. I think I could do on-site
> trainings, but it's hard to market that sort of thing. It's a bit of a
> Catch-22, I don't know that companies would bring me in for the on-site
> training unless they could see testimonials of other trainings I had done.
> But, it's hard for me to get a classroom training going in Ohio.
>
> -Wes
>
> --
>
> Wes Wannemacher
> Author - Struts 2 In Practice
> Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
> http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009
Re: Training
Posted by Wes Wannemacher <we...@wantii.com>.
On Sunday 07 June 2009 09:24:20 am stanlick@gmail.com wrote:
> Hey Wes and all --
>
> I have thinking about the Wes training thread and would like to get your
> feedback. Do you guys think training can continue to cost what it has
> historically? The reason I ask is that I too have considered dropping down
> a gear and doing training for a living. However, I get the feeling that
> techies now expect training to cost exactly what their software cost -
> *nothing!* Open source training if you will. Are you getting this
> impression? When I mentioned online training in my follow-up to your
> thread, I had no idea folks were going to say "yeah, and it should also be
> free!" I'm seeing the tide switch and curious to get your take. I have
> considered training & support the avenue to picking up some coin relative
> to FOSS, and now I wonder if this too is expected to be free.
>
> P.S. You give em an inch and they want a mile
>
> Scott
This is where I have to put on my "business" hat and take off my engineer's
hat for a minute. Personally, I can contribute to OSS simply because it makes
economic sense for me. Being an independent (read, non-Fortune-100) developer,
I can showcase my talents and make myself relevant in a scenario where karma
and merit help you get ahead. Now, I don't directly get paid for contributing
to Struts, but the karma and merit are the best form of advertising I've seen
for the things I do. A few years ago I presented to a potential client a
scenario where they could contract me, long-term, and I would help them to
create a deliver a product that they had seen as pie-in-the-sky for a while. I
couldn't quite make it work out. Last year, we re-visited the same scenario,
but this time I came to the table with the same resume, but few line items
added (the OSS projects I am now a contributor to). This closed the deal.
I generally subscribe to the F/L OSS philosophy, but my kids have to eat too.
Training, like a college education should be expensive, simply because there
is more to it than classroom time. Materials should take a while to gather
into a presentable format. Instructors should be experienced in the art of
content delivery and the instructor should have some name recognition.
These factors sort of brought me to the notion that I might be a good
instructor. I have experience teaching, I taught at a community college for
years. Add to that, I am one of the struts developers and you should have a
compelling argument for choosing me as a trainer. Scott, you probably fall
pretty close in line with my notion because you co-authored Struts 2 In Action
and you have worked as a trainer in the past.
What bugs me is that I searched online for struts training and found some
things offered, but I had not heard of many of these companies. Not that I
think these guys couldn't do a good job, but I think that people offering
training should at least be a part of this community. I have one of those
photographic memories :) so I would recognize names of people and companies if
they were regular posters here or at dev@struts.a.o. I sort of feel like IT
training is becoming like local dance and martial arts studios. Someone sees
that there is a potential market and decides to exploit it by charging the
market price for delivering sub-par quality material.
I have been to training from both sides, one training where I ended up
answering questions from the crowd (as a participant... yep, it was that bad).
And I also attended a Sybase training once from one of the Sybase engineers.
The Sybase training was worth every penny and then some. At the time, it was a
training paid for by the company who employed me, but had I known the quality,
I would have paid out of my own pocket since the material was relevant to what
I was doing. (this was a 5-day training with the typical $5k price tag)
Personally, I think companies would approve training if they knew that they
would be getting their money's worth. But, I also think that right now would
be about as hard as it could get because budgets are so tight. I am not
necessarily convinced that a low-price online training will work for me
because I would have to procure the necessary equipment and software to create
something presentable. I could just whip something together, but I personally
am one of those guys that if I do something, I do it all-the-way or not at
all. I feel like there are a few risks with the glue-together low-price
modules of online training. 1. I think someone mentioned that taking a $35
training would lead to more than a few relationships that start out like this,
"hey, I paid for your [$35] beginner struts training, now you owe me and I
need you to help me write a MacOS clone in Struts" I always feel like every
relationship should be professional, so if I prefer to set the bar a little
higher. It's not that money = professional, but having been in this industry a
while, I'm sure many of you know that the best people to work for and with are
the people who have a clue about the nature of our work. Anyone that would
have said "clue" would be someone that knows that IT training costs what it
costs. 2. Struts is a niche market. There are too many options for smaller
quick projects. I would feel that the low-cost online training might work
better for ASP, PHP or Rails. Most of the Struts projects I have seen are not
get-it-out-quick and the developers are not ramped up quickly on Struts.
Struts takes a certain amount of time to learn. Developers that haven't worked
on a larger team on a mature project don't seem to appreciate Model 2 and the
value of being able to utilize POJOs at the various layers. I think a lot of
you may have encountered that person or candidate on your team that might have
put something like struts on their resume because they took a training and
when tasked with a real task they fail miserably because they don't know
quite what they claim. I wouldn't want myself associated with the training
that fed that mentality. In a classroom, you can answer the questions and as a
good instructor, pick up on someone's lack of fundamental understanding and
work on that.
To be honest Scott, I'm not convinced that being a trainer would work for me.
Mostly because of my geographical location. I think I could do on-site
trainings, but it's hard to market that sort of thing. It's a bit of a
Catch-22, I don't know that companies would bring me in for the on-site
training unless they could see testimonials of other trainings I had done.
But, it's hard for me to get a classroom training going in Ohio.
-Wes
--
Wes Wannemacher
Author - Struts 2 In Practice
Includes coverage of Struts 2.1, Spring, JPA, JQuery, Sitemesh and more
http://www.manning.com/wannemacher
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org