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Posted to community@apache.org by Andrew Savory <an...@luminas.co.uk> on 2003/08/26 11:09:14 UTC
EU Software Patents
Hi,
Some of you may already be aware that on 1st September the European
parliament will vote [1] on the issue of software patents.
This is something that will directly affect all ASF projects, despite the
care that we take in guaranteeing copyright of contributed code. Approved
patents are not made public for 18 months, so there's no way we can know
in advance what code will infringe patents. This is not the only reason
patents are bad. This letter [2] to MEPs explains more.
In protest against the directive, an online demo [3] is being
co-ordinated, proposing that web sites shut [4] on 27th August. Obviously,
the more sites that shut, the more impact it will have.
I'd like to propose that we "close" (ie swap the front page for a
protest page) as many of the Apache web sites as possible.
Obviously, if we could get a mass turnout of ASF people to the demo in
Brussels [5], that would be even better!
[1] http://swpat.ffii.org/news/03/plen0620/index.en.html
[2] http://www.compsoc.com/~coriordan/docs/dear_mep/dear_mep.html
[3] http://swpat.ffii.org/group/demo/index.en.html
[4] http://swpat.ffii.org/group/demo/demo.en.html
[5] http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/32457.html
Thanks for listening,
Andrew.
--
Andrew Savory Email: andrew@luminas.co.uk
Managing Director Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
Terrific. In Germany, political parties _are_ charitable organizations
("gemeinnützig") and donations to them are fully tax-deductable.
Regards
Henning
On Wed, 2003-08-27 at 20:28, Brian Behlendorf wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, David Reid wrote:
> > Bill, are you seriously saying that laws in the EU will not have any impact
> > on the way the ASF carries on it's affairs? It saddens me as I thought we'd
> > moved away from this sort of small minded view of the world :(
>
> No, it means that, at least as far as the IRS is concerned, this is
> potentially an issue, as 501c3 charitable organizations are not supposed
> to be politically active. The intent is to prevent people from being able
> to make political donations to support a candidate's election and write
> off those donations, as one example. However, there are plenty of
> advocacy organizations whose 501c3 status is not a question: the EFF, for
> example. So long as any advocacy we do is around issues and not elections
> or votes or specific politicians, we're good.
>
> Brian
>
>
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@collab.net>.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003, David Reid wrote:
> Bill, are you seriously saying that laws in the EU will not have any impact
> on the way the ASF carries on it's affairs? It saddens me as I thought we'd
> moved away from this sort of small minded view of the world :(
No, it means that, at least as far as the IRS is concerned, this is
potentially an issue, as 501c3 charitable organizations are not supposed
to be politically active. The intent is to prevent people from being able
to make political donations to support a candidate's election and write
off those donations, as one example. However, there are plenty of
advocacy organizations whose 501c3 status is not a question: the EFF, for
example. So long as any advocacy we do is around issues and not elections
or votes or specific politicians, we're good.
Brian
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by David Reid <da...@jetnet.co.uk>.
This particular line of reasoning doesn't sit very well with me.
Bill, are you seriously saying that laws in the EU will not have any impact
on the way the ASF carries on it's affairs? It saddens me as I thought we'd
moved away from this sort of small minded view of the world :(
david
> At 12:44 PM 8/26/2003, Danny Angus wrote:
>
> >If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to
opposing
> >software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
>
> I will say that I'm pleased the members were able to turn the ship so
quickly
> to support the initiative, it shows exactly how far from lethargy our
community
> is, even near the end of summer.
>
> I should point out though that ASF support of the protest is a bit odd.
> We are a US Delaware charitable corporation bound by (primarily) US law
> and patents (and US patent treaty obligations.)
>
> When the topic of US patent reform comes up (the insanity that has led to
> issues such as the .gif file format, SCO v.s. the world, etc) that we most
> carefully consider a position and reflect that in our activites. There
are very
> stringent lobbing restrictions on the charitable corporation, but that
does
> not mean we cannot have any positions (consider the various cancer
> foundations' support of anti-smoking efforts.)
>
> One thing I do not want from the foundation is a double standard applied
> to our positions on US v.s. Euro patents.
>
> Bill
>
>
>
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 12:44 PM 8/26/2003, Danny Angus wrote:
>If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
>software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
I will say that I'm pleased the members were able to turn the ship so quickly
to support the initiative, it shows exactly how far from lethargy our community
is, even near the end of summer.
I should point out though that ASF support of the protest is a bit odd.
We are a US Delaware charitable corporation bound by (primarily) US law
and patents (and US patent treaty obligations.)
When the topic of US patent reform comes up (the insanity that has led to
issues such as the .gif file format, SCO v.s. the world, etc) that we most
carefully consider a position and reflect that in our activites. There are very
stringent lobbing restrictions on the charitable corporation, but that does
not mean we cannot have any positions (consider the various cancer
foundations' support of anti-smoking efforts.)
One thing I do not want from the foundation is a double standard applied
to our positions on US v.s. Euro patents.
Bill
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Lars Eilebrecht <la...@hyperreal.org>.
According to Danny Angus:
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
+1!
ciao...
--
Lars Eilebrecht - Beat me, whip me, make me use Windows!
lars@hyperreal.org
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> > I predict that it will be really ugly. Fortunately, there are Open
> > Source friendly companies like IBM, so with their patronage, Open
> > Source can succeed. Should they turn face, ugly will be an
understatement.
> Agreed, but did you know: [that IBM is the world’s most prolific patenter]
Yes. Hence the observation that the patrongage of companies like IBM would
be essential. If patents are granted, the only way to combat them is with
other key patents. It becomes a war to see whose portfolio is larger and
has more keys that can be used to force someone else to let you use their’s.
--- Noel
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 26/08/2003, at 10:22, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I predict that it will be really ugly. Fortunately, there are Open
> Source
> friendly companies like IBM, so with their patronage, Open Source can
> succeed. Should they turn face, ugly will be an understatement.
Agreed, but did you know:
'As the world’s largest IT research organization,
IBM Research produces more breakthroughs than any
company in the industry — averaging 7 patents a day.'
[http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/about/career.shtml]
no assessment, though... :)
Cheers,
Erik
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Is having the real home page one click or 60-seconds away for one day
> really something that bugs the Apache userbase a lot?
No. I think what you did was fine in that regard, and have already
commented on it. We are apparently still dealing with mail-lag. :-)
> I know that patents will be a huge issue for years to come.
I predict that it will be really ugly. Fortunately, there are Open Source
friendly companies like IBM, so with their patronage, Open Source can
succeed. Should they turn face, ugly will be an understatement.
--- Noel
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I am in favor of opposing software patents (they aren not working out great
> in the USA), but we should not disadvantage our users. If we post anything,
> as we did regarding the JCP, it should not prevent our users from easily
> using the site.
Pardon me, but I would say that there is quite a difference between a
protest against a company ruling and a european-wide regulation. In the
latter case, ther might just be no way out.
> People count on the ASF, and while we may want them to
> focus on a problem with great potential for damage, we do not not want to
> inspire ill-will because someone could not access something they needed from
> our site in a timely manner.
Is having the real home page one click or 60-seconds away for one day
really something that bugs the Apache userbase a lot?
This said, I'm sure too that this protest will not help much, and I know
that patents will be a huge issue for years to come. Yet I'd like to
thing that I did all that I can to prevent (at least some) damage.
Ciao,
--
Gianugo Rabellino
Pro-netics s.r.l. - http://www.pro-netics.com
Orixo, the XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
(Now blogging at: http://blogs.cocoondev.org/gianugo/)
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
I am in favor of opposing software patents (they aren not working out great
in the USA), but we should not disadvantage our users. If we post anything,
as we did regarding the JCP, it should not prevent our users from easily
using the site. People count on the ASF, and while we may want them to
focus on a problem with great potential for damage, we do not not want to
inspire ill-will because someone could not access something they needed from
our site in a timely manner.
This issue has been around for years. Until something spectacularly bad
happens, there will not be a popular uprising, but I cynically do not
believe that the protest will have a great effect.
My prediction is that what will happen is that companies like Microsoft will
use patents and protocol copyright (copyrighting the wire level protocols)
to attack Open Source software, since they are gradually losing on most
other fronts. Microsoft has already turned a Court mandate that they open
their protocols into a licensing scheme to control a wide range of wire
level protocols.
The infrastructure must remain open and unencumbered, but it seems that the
only solution seems to be employing the same weapon. The IETF and other
standards bodies should take out copyright and patent protection on the open
standards, and use those as leverage in the same way that the big companies
use their patent portfolio. Perhaps Roy should have filed a patent on REST.
--- Noel
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by André Malo <nd...@apache.org>.
* Thom May wrote:
> * Danny Angus (danny@apache.org) wrote :
>>
>> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
>> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
> ditto and ditto.
+1.
nd
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Thom May <th...@apache.org>.
* Danny Angus (danny@apache.org) wrote :
>
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
ditto and ditto.
-Thom
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> If someone (since there seems to be a lot of people +1'ing it) can come
> up with a *suitable* page for us to post, if we get a go-ahead from the
> board, then I'll post it (at least on www).
>
> I'd like to see a page contain:
>
> - the ASF logo so that this is obvious this is our official position
> - a description of the situation and what we want to see happen
> - links to the 'main' protest site
> - a passthrough to the real index page (taking the entire site off-line
> seems a tad excessive, but a link at the bottom of the page to the
> 'real' index page is okay with me).
>
> I'm not as pessimistic that we can get approval in time. ;-)
>
> But, someone needs to take charge of creating the content. Any takers?
I'm willing to tackle this. The only real problem is content: I can make
up a description of what's going on in Europe, but problem is coming up
with a text that expresses the opinion of the ASF (what do we really
want to see happen? I know for myself, I don't want this law to be
approved, but is that an ASF position?). I'm not entitled to speak on
the ASF name, but I can try to make up something objective for the board
to approve. How can we go forward with it?
Ciao,
--
Gianugo Rabellino
Pro-netics s.r.l. - http://www.pro-netics.com
Orixo, the XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
(Now blogging at: http://blogs.cocoondev.org/gianugo/)
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Tuesday, August 26, 2003 19:18:38 +0200 Gianugo Rabellino
<gi...@apache.org> wrote:
> There is an "almost standard" page at
> http://swpat.ffii.org/group/demo/demo.en.html, so it would just be a
> matter of downloading and setting an .htaccess rule. But I understand
> that it might be pretty late to organize all this with such a short
> notice. Too bad, it's quite an important issue here.
If someone (since there seems to be a lot of people +1'ing it) can come up
with a *suitable* page for us to post, if we get a go-ahead from the board,
then I'll post it (at least on www).
I'd like to see a page contain:
- the ASF logo so that this is obvious this is our official position
- a description of the situation and what we want to see happen
- links to the 'main' protest site
- a passthrough to the real index page (taking the entire site off-line
seems a tad excessive, but a link at the bottom of the page to the 'real'
index page is okay with me).
I'm not as pessimistic that we can get approval in time. ;-)
But, someone needs to take charge of creating the content. Any takers? --
justin
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
>> I'd like to propose that we "close" (ie swap the front page for a
>> protest page) as many of the Apache web sites as possible.
>
> Not to belittle this protest, but we do a good job of bringing our own
> sites down ourselves (or UnitedLayer does).
>
> If we were to do this, IMHO, it'd be at the board's direction - no one
> else has the authority to do this. If you want to provide a page that
> we could replace it with, that may make it easier to receive approval.
There is an "almost standard" page at
http://swpat.ffii.org/group/demo/demo.en.html, so it would just be a
matter of downloading and setting an .htaccess rule. But I understand
that it might be pretty late to organize all this with such a short
notice. Too bad, it's quite an important issue here.
Ciao,
--
Gianugo Rabellino
Pro-netics s.r.l. - http://www.pro-netics.com
Orixo, the XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
(Now blogging at: http://blogs.cocoondev.org/gianugo/)
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to
> opposing software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the
> demo.
Same here.
Stefan
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@apache.org>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
Same for both here, if it wasn't clear enough already. :-)
--
Gianugo Rabellino
Pro-netics s.r.l. - http://www.pro-netics.com
Orixo, the XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
(Now blogging at: http://blogs.cocoondev.org/gianugo/)
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Henri Gomez <hg...@apache.org>.
Danny Angus a écrit :
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
>
+1, this EU works (as many others), is a shame
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by David Reid <da...@jetnet.co.uk>.
At the risk of sounding like an AOL user, - me too!
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to
opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
+1 for both.
david
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <hp...@intermeta.de>.
+1, +1 and the main question remains why we (and I don't mean just the
ASF but all of us that develop and/or work with OSS and free software)
were collectively blind and deaf to this issue. This didn't surface just
today. We simply had a blind spot for this. :-(
Regards
Henning
On Tue, 2003-08-26 at 19:44, Danny Angus wrote:
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
>
> d.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Justin Erenkrantz [mailto:jerenkrantz@apache.org]
> > Sent: 26 August 2003 18:07
> > To: community@apache.org
> > Cc: board@apache.org
> > Subject: Re: EU Software Patents
> >
> >
> > --On Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:09:14 +0100 Andrew Savory
> > <an...@luminas.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > I'd like to propose that we "close" (ie swap the front page for a
> > > protest page) as many of the Apache web sites as possible.
> >
> > Not to belittle this protest, but we do a good job of bringing our own
> > sites down ourselves (or UnitedLayer does).
> >
> > If we were to do this, IMHO, it'd be at the board's direction -
> > no one else
> > has the authority to do this. If you want to provide a page that
> > we could
> > replace it with, that may make it easier to receive approval. -- justin
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
> >
>
>
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INTERMETA - Gesellschaft fuer Mehrwertdienste mbH hps@intermeta.de
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by Giacomo Pati <gi...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Danny Angus wrote:
>
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
+1 for me
--
Giacomo Pati
Otego AG, Switzerland - http://www.otego.com
Orixo, the XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
+1
Sander
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
> In any case, I'd like to advise everyone to state your opposition by
> just writing to your Representative/Member of EU Parliament: see
> http://wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep5/owa/
> p_meps2.repartition?ilg=EN&iorig=home for their mail and postal
> addresses.
And when you do - _please_ use a fax or postal mail (unless you know the
MEP - and know that he actually personally reads email). Handwritten is
fine too. And _do_ use your own local language.
Dw
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 26/08/2003, at 07:44, Danny Angus wrote:
>
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to
> opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
>
> d.
+1 and +1!
just FYI: the ISOC members are currently discussing the same issues but
it's probably also too late for them to get something official out of
the door. Given the fact that ISOC is backed by an enormous amount of
big players (M$, IBM, HP, Cisco, ...) and also software patent holders
(mostly IETF folks), I find it really surprising to see a big part of
them against software patents...
and finally another bit of thought food: Bruce Perens speaks on
software patents...
http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/08/07/1453252&mode=thread&tid=19
In any case, I'd like to advise everyone to state your opposition by
just writing to your Representative/Member of EU Parliament: see
http://wwwdb.europarl.eu.int/ep5/owa/
p_meps2.repartition?ilg=EN&iorig=home for their mail and postal
addresses.
Cheers,
Erik
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Danny Angus wrote:
> If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
> software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
Ditto here: Apache standing up against SW patents might show the industry
they can't play nice with open source over here, while paying the
lobbyists to defend patents with the gouvernment (which is what happens
here in Brussels, EU 'capital').
</Steven>
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RE: EU Software Patents
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
If anyone's counting a show of hands here I'm a European and +1 to opposing
software patents in Europe and +1 to the ASF supporting the demo.
d.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Justin Erenkrantz [mailto:jerenkrantz@apache.org]
> Sent: 26 August 2003 18:07
> To: community@apache.org
> Cc: board@apache.org
> Subject: Re: EU Software Patents
>
>
> --On Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:09:14 +0100 Andrew Savory
> <an...@luminas.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I'd like to propose that we "close" (ie swap the front page for a
> > protest page) as many of the Apache web sites as possible.
>
> Not to belittle this protest, but we do a good job of bringing our own
> sites down ourselves (or UnitedLayer does).
>
> If we were to do this, IMHO, it'd be at the board's direction -
> no one else
> has the authority to do this. If you want to provide a page that
> we could
> replace it with, that may make it easier to receive approval. -- justin
>
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org>.
--On Tuesday, August 26, 2003 10:09:14 +0100 Andrew Savory
<an...@luminas.co.uk> wrote:
> I'd like to propose that we "close" (ie swap the front page for a
> protest page) as many of the Apache web sites as possible.
Not to belittle this protest, but we do a good job of bringing our own
sites down ourselves (or UnitedLayer does).
If we were to do this, IMHO, it'd be at the board's direction - no one else
has the authority to do this. If you want to provide a page that we could
replace it with, that may make it easier to receive approval. -- justin
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Andrew Savory wrote:
> Rumour has it that the McCarthy report [2] has been withdrawn from next
> week's European Parliament agenda.
>
> [2] http://swpat.ffii.org/papers/eubsa-swpat0202/amccarthy0206/index.en.html
Aye - I've heard the same; but Cordis still shows it on the roll. So it is
nto formal yet.
Dw
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Andrew Savory <an...@luminas.co.uk>.
Hi,
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Andrew Savory wrote:
> Some of you may already be aware that on 1st September the European
> parliament will vote [1] on the issue of software patents.
>
> [1] http://swpat.ffii.org/news/03/plen0620/index.en.html
Rumour has it that the McCarthy report [2] has been withdrawn from next
week's European Parliament agenda.
[2] http://swpat.ffii.org/papers/eubsa-swpat0202/amccarthy0206/index.en.html
I'd like to think it's at least in part thanks to our protests!
Thanks everyone,
Andrew.
--
Andrew Savory Email: andrew@luminas.co.uk
Managing Director Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135
Orixo alliance: http://www.orixo.com/ Web: www.luminas.co.uk
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Re: EU Software Patents
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
Andrew Savory wrote:
> Some of you may already be aware that on 1st September the European
> parliament will vote [1] on the issue of software patents.
> ...
> In protest against the directive, an online demo [3] is being
> co-ordinated, proposing that web sites shut [4] on 27th August.
> Obviously,
> the more sites that shut, the more impact it will have.
I support this.
I am pessimistic we can turn around a decision fast enough though.
- ben
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