[Proposal] initial build system for Forrest (Was: Simple example to start from)

[David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>]

I was in the middle of preparing this email when
Ken's frustrated posting came though today ...

----
A while ago Ken Barozzi proposed a kick-start for the
Forrest build system. However, i think that discussion
may have been missed. Perhaps this was due to a
poor initial email subject line.

In the email below, i gather that Ken would like to move
the development of the Krysalis Centipede project starter
kit, from Sourceforge to Forrest.

However, i wonder if that is appropriate. You have an
excellent resource there. Many other projects could
benefit from Krysalis Centipede. Forrest could be a user
of your kit, to gain a kick-start. However, if the development
moves to Forrest then i am concerned that the scope of
Forrest will be far broader than that of Centipede. If so,
then the world would lose the excellent starter kit that
you provide.

So i wonder if it is better that the two projects be kept as
separate. Forrest can benefit from and acknowledge the
kick-start. Lessons that are learned from the implementation
can then be fed back into Centipede.

Anyway, i have krysalis-centipede-0.1 on my system
and it looks to me to be just what Forrest needs. We may
need to leave out some of the extra tools/lib/* until we
actually require them.

Let us discuss this broader issue first. I think that some
others will need to look into Centipede. I am not expert
in starting a project, other Forrest dwellers would know
better.

--David 

----------------------------------
> Subject: Re: Simple example to start from
> Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 19:52:24 +1100
> From: David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>
> To: forrest-dev@xml.apache.org
>
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> > Hi to everyone.  :-)  I'm very happy to see this project start, I can't
> > wait to use it!
> > Anyway, here are my 2 cents.
> > 
> > Since I use Ant build files in my project and need to create
> > documentation, I generally rip the project structure from previous
> > projects. This creates old useless builds and unused targets.
> > 
> > Not knowing that Forrest had the making of a standard build as one of
> > its goals, I added a sub-project on sourceforge, called centipede
> > (http://www.krysalis.org/). An example of the build being used is in the
> > jakarta-poi module on Sourceforge (POI Project). They are using it
> > without the split build in jakarta-poi on Jakarta also. They helped me a
> > lot in understanding the requirements.
> > 
> > It's just a cleanup with minor modifications of the structure used by
> > Cocoon and the stylesheets from Avalon (thanks guys!). I cleaned the
> > build of cocoon-only targets, added a contrib section, a cleandocs
> > target, added interactive functionality and notifications of pending
> > patches in bugzilla to the list, and split the target in many files
> > referenced as XML entities. Some of these have been included in Cocoon
> > as a test, but I shifted the discussion on how to continue here, since
> > on the Cocoon list IMHO it's slightly OT. I've also been working to
> > reduce the time it takes for Cocoon to generate the docs, and it seems
> > that it's the crawling that slows it down.
> > 
> > Now that I've read the Forrest goals, I'm excited of the possible
> > outcomes of this new Apache project, and would like to continue
> > development here, closing centipede.
> 
> As far as i can tell, your stuff would provide a good kick-start
> to the Forrest build system. I have looked at your Bugzilla
> contribution (Cocoon:6047), read your postings to cocoon-dev,
> and i have done a brief investigation of your Krysalis Centipede.
> 
> I am certainly no Ant expert, but i like the simplicity and modularity
> that you have implemented. Especially good to see, is the way
> that you have utilised the power of XML to get the parser to
> include the *.xpart as external entities.
> 
> > I would like to integrate also automatic jar downloading and simple
> > build system upgrades, along with a single file to describe the whole
> > project (a modern STATUS file) and chart-report making.
> 
> Good vision. However, the initial build system needs to be
> in place first. So please slow down a little :-)
> 
> --David

Re: [Proposal] initial build system for Forrest (Was: Simple example to start from)

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ba...@nicolaken.com>]

> From: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
>
> > David Crossley wrote:
> >
> > > of your kit, to gain a kick-start. However, if the development (of
> > Centipede)
> > > moves to Forrest then i am concerned that the scope of
> > > Forrest will be far broader than that of Centipede. If so,
> > > then the world would lose the excellent starter kit that
> > > you provide.
> > >
> > > So i wonder if it is better that the two projects be kept as
> > > separate. Forrest can benefit from and acknowledge the
> > > kick-start. Lessons that are learned from the implementation
> > > can then be fed back into Centipede.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Consider it as establishing the same infectuous relationship as
> > Avalon/Cocoon.

Your explanations are so clear I can only agree. ;-)
Very nice, I like it :-)

So, I finally set up the cvs notification to the krysalis-cvs mailing list
and Stefan Bodewig kindly added the centipede link in the Ant page
http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/projects.html , so all is ready.
I'm on the ant-dev list now, to try and collaborate AMAP with the developers
there too.

Jakarta POI (http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/ - go see it, it's finally up!)
is using Centipede; I hope Forrest too can help Centipede grow while he
grows.
If someone wants to help-suggest-send patches he is -obviously- *very*
welcome :-)

I'd be honoured if you decide to use Centipede on Forrest. Nevertheless, I
think that it's not yet good enough in the present form, because it's a too
big distribution. IMHO if we collaborate, it will suit Forrest's needs.

See ya at http://krysalis.org/ and mailing lists for this! :-)

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi                 krysalis.org@nicolaken.com
            - verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] initial build system for Forrest (Was: Simple example to start from)

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> 
> From: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>
> 
> > David Crossley wrote:
> >
> > > of your kit, to gain a kick-start. However, if the development (of
> > Centipede)
> > > moves to Forrest then i am concerned that the scope of
> > > Forrest will be far broader than that of Centipede. If so,
> > > then the world would lose the excellent starter kit that
> > > you provide.
> > >
> > > So i wonder if it is better that the two projects be kept as
> > > separate. Forrest can benefit from and acknowledge the
> > > kick-start. Lessons that are learned from the implementation
> > > can then be fed back into Centipede.
> >
> > +1
> >
> > Consider it as establishing the same infectuous relationship as
> > Avalon/Cocoon.
> 
> :-)
> 
> I tend to agree. I read the README in xml-forrest:
> <README>
>    - a publishing system for documentation
>    - a build system for code
>    - analysis of logs and publishing of results
> </README>
> 
> I thought that "build system" meant something like Centipede, but now it
> seems to be more like Gump2. Is this correct?
> 
> > Besides that (while lacking some bandwidth today to do it myself), how
> > about putting up a requirements/use cases document for Forrest itself,
> > as an intro for new people on the project (since Stefano is putting up a
> > big marketing/teaser campaign inviting people to join in on several
> > other Apache mailing lists). Would be a good test for our DTD's, too,
> > and a starter for a Forrest project website.
> >
> > I'll be happy to do the XML encoding somewhere during this week, just
> > reply with your bullet points ;-)
> >
> > As a starter:
> >
> > Forrest outline:
> >
> > * What is Forrest
> >   - Scope & features
> >   - Who we are
> >   - How can you help
> > * Forrest overview
> >   - Project site publication
> >     - Document types
> >     - Views / site sections
> >   - ... ?
> 
> Some info is in README, and the basic community info is in Centipede, copied
> courtesy of Cocoon ;-)
> 
> BTW, why not use frames? It reduces bandwidth usage, and keeps important
> info on top.

No, no frames. they mess up with the structure of the user flow (the
"back" button is detached from the cognitive context)

> Would it be ok for you guys if I make the stylesheet for Centipede like the
> mockup Stefano put in Forrest, and have the basic site build by the weekend?
> IMHO it's better than nothing.

Hmmm, yeah, but I wanted forrest to be a *live* site, not a static one.

Anyway, the stylesheets between document and my HTML mock ups are a good
thing to work on.

> I remember a talk with a bunch of engineers.
> I ask:"So, how do we do this?".
> Silence.
> Then I draw some lines on the drawing board, and everyone has something to
> say about it.
> All know how it should be done. Except me ;-)
> Ok, I confess, I didn't have a clue myself ;-P

Ok, people, I know: enough marketing, let's get the wishlist going
(believe me, is saved on the draft folder right now)

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] initial build system for Forrest (Was: Simple example to start from)

[Nicola Ken Barozzi <ba...@nicolaken.com>]

From: "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org>

> David Crossley wrote:
>
> > of your kit, to gain a kick-start. However, if the development (of
> Centipede)
> > moves to Forrest then i am concerned that the scope of
> > Forrest will be far broader than that of Centipede. If so,
> > then the world would lose the excellent starter kit that
> > you provide.
> >
> > So i wonder if it is better that the two projects be kept as
> > separate. Forrest can benefit from and acknowledge the
> > kick-start. Lessons that are learned from the implementation
> > can then be fed back into Centipede.
>
> +1
>
> Consider it as establishing the same infectuous relationship as
> Avalon/Cocoon.

:-)

I tend to agree. I read the README in xml-forrest:
<README>
   - a publishing system for documentation
   - a build system for code
   - analysis of logs and publishing of results
</README>

I thought that "build system" meant something like Centipede, but now it
seems to be more like Gump2. Is this correct?

> Besides that (while lacking some bandwidth today to do it myself), how
> about putting up a requirements/use cases document for Forrest itself,
> as an intro for new people on the project (since Stefano is putting up a
> big marketing/teaser campaign inviting people to join in on several
> other Apache mailing lists). Would be a good test for our DTD's, too,
> and a starter for a Forrest project website.
>
> I'll be happy to do the XML encoding somewhere during this week, just
> reply with your bullet points ;-)
>
> As a starter:
>
> Forrest outline:
>
> * What is Forrest
>   - Scope & features
>   - Who we are
>   - How can you help
> * Forrest overview
>   - Project site publication
>     - Document types
>     - Views / site sections
>   - ... ?

Some info is in README, and the basic community info is in Centipede, copied
courtesy of Cocoon ;-)

BTW, why not use frames? It reduces bandwidth usage, and keeps important
info on top.

Would it be ok for you guys if I make the stylesheet for Centipede like the
mockup Stefano put in Forrest, and have the basic site build by the weekend?
IMHO it's better than nothing.
I remember a talk with a bunch of engineers.
I ask:"So, how do we do this?".
Silence.
Then I draw some lines on the drawing board, and everyone has something to
say about it.
All know how it should be done. Except me ;-)
Ok, I confess, I didn't have a clue myself ;-P

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi                 krysalis.org@nicolaken.com
            - verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [Proposal] initial build system for Forrest (Was: Simple example to start from)

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Steven Noels wrote:
> 
> David Crossley wrote:
> 
> > of your kit, to gain a kick-start. However, if the development (of
> Centipede)
> > moves to Forrest then i am concerned that the scope of
> > Forrest will be far broader than that of Centipede. If so,
> > then the world would lose the excellent starter kit that
> > you provide.
> >
> > So i wonder if it is better that the two projects be kept as
> > separate. Forrest can benefit from and acknowledge the
> > kick-start. Lessons that are learned from the implementation
> > can then be fed back into Centipede.
> 
> +1
> 
> Consider it as establishing the same infectuous relationship as
> Avalon/Cocoon.
> 
> Besides that (while lacking some bandwidth today to do it myself), how
> about putting up a requirements/use cases document for Forrest itself,
> as an intro for new people on the project (since Stefano is putting up a
> big marketing/teaser campaign inviting people to join in on several
> other Apache mailing lists). Would be a good test for our DTD's, too,
> and a starter for a Forrest project website.

I'm going it, hold on.

> I'll be happy to do the XML encoding somewhere during this week, just
> reply with your bullet points ;-)
> 
> As a starter:
> 
> Forrest outline:
> 
> * What is Forrest
>   - Scope & features
>   - Who we are
>   - How can you help
> * Forrest overview
>   - Project site publication
>     - Document types
>     - Views / site sections
>   - ... ?
> 
> etc etc...
> 
> I'm quite curious about the 'meta-reqs' as Stefano posted them on the
> Xindice list:
> 
> <stefano-quote>
> This dynamicity will allow us to write stuff like:
> 
>  1) graphs of logs (downloads, cvs commits, mail list messages, mail
> list subscribers)
>  2) weblogs
>  3) project-related calendars
>  4) user-extensible in-place documents (as php.net does)
> </stefano-quote>
> 
> </Steven>

It's coming, it's coming....

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------

RE: [Proposal] initial build system for Forrest (Was: Simple example to start from)

[Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>]

David Crossley wrote:

> of your kit, to gain a kick-start. However, if the development (of
Centipede)
> moves to Forrest then i am concerned that the scope of
> Forrest will be far broader than that of Centipede. If so,
> then the world would lose the excellent starter kit that
> you provide.
>
> So i wonder if it is better that the two projects be kept as
> separate. Forrest can benefit from and acknowledge the
> kick-start. Lessons that are learned from the implementation
> can then be fed back into Centipede.

+1

Consider it as establishing the same infectuous relationship as
Avalon/Cocoon.

Besides that (while lacking some bandwidth today to do it myself), how
about putting up a requirements/use cases document for Forrest itself,
as an intro for new people on the project (since Stefano is putting up a
big marketing/teaser campaign inviting people to join in on several
other Apache mailing lists). Would be a good test for our DTD's, too,
and a starter for a Forrest project website.

I'll be happy to do the XML encoding somewhere during this week, just
reply with your bullet points ;-)

As a starter:

Forrest outline:

* What is Forrest
  - Scope & features
  - Who we are
  - How can you help
* Forrest overview
  - Project site publication
    - Document types
    - Views / site sections
  - ... ?

etc etc...

I'm quite curious about the 'meta-reqs' as Stefano posted them on the
Xindice list:

<stefano-quote>
This dynamicity will allow us to write stuff like:

 1) graphs of logs (downloads, cvs commits, mail list messages, mail
list subscribers)
 2) weblogs
 3) project-related calendars
 4) user-extensible in-place documents (as php.net does)
</stefano-quote>


</Steven>