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Posted to dev@lenya.apache.org by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org> on 2005/03/27 20:07:22 UTC
[RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which is
now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
combined with the amount of work it takes to customize the forms editor
for a new resource type, it may make sense to replace it with an editor
based on cforms. it would probably be quite easy to derive a binding
from the schema automatically, and use the cforms widgets for editing.
apart from removing a dependency on an unmaintained code base, this
would also allow us to experiment with cforms and see if it adds value
for lenya. i saw that torsten is currently experimenting in this area.
WDYT?
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Torsten Schlabach wrote:
> >> But again I don't know why we have to have this discussion before
> >> anyone has actually tested Torsten's solution and used it in
> >> production for a certain time.
>
> First of all, why don't you let me finish it?
I guess you misunderstand me here. I am +1 for your CForms editor and
I am -1 for the moment to replace the current forms editor by your
CForms editor.
>
> >> And even then why replacing it immediately if there is plenty of
> room >> for co-existence at least for a certain amount of time. If
> something
> >> is good, then people will shift from one to the other anyway.
>
> I agree to the point that having a component does not hurt. It does
> not cost anything to keep it around. If it get's 100% superceeded it
> might make sense to remove it.
exactly my point of view
> One could argue though that one shouldn't invest in it anymore.
one can argue, but one shouldn't force anyone to stop as long
as it doesn't cause any harm beside that maybe some people think
the time could be better spent on something else.
An Open Source project is not a company where someone is delegating
others to do this and this. People are working on it voluntarily and
this needs to be respected. Also there needs to be space for competition
within a project and this competition needs to be on a fair basis.
> This could be expressed in the documentation such as: "Prior to
> spending time on enabling additional resource types in the Form
> Editor, consider rather using the new XYZ editor because ...".
that's what I would call best pratice
>
> But that's all in the future to me!
I wouldn't say that. We are facing the same situation all the time,
maybe on different components, but that doesn't matter.
The community needs to understand and learn how to handle such situations,
otherwise it will break apart and people are leaving because of stupid
and selfish
reasons. And this would really be a waste of resources.
I am aware that finding the right balance takes time and is difficult.
But each of us needs to be aware how fragile a community actually is and how
quickly a community can be destabilized.
Michi
>
> Talking about editors ... I will start a separate thread!
>
> Regards,
> Torsten
>
> Michael Wechner schrieb:
>
>> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>>
>>> Michael Wechner wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which
>>>>> is now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK it is maintained at Sourceforge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> there is no activity
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> are you sure? The link to the mailinglists are still to the obsolete
>> xmldb.org
>> domain and these were non-active long time ago.
>>
>> Someone must have moved it to sourceforge and the one or those who
>> have moved
>> it must still be active.
>>
>> I would suggest that we give it another try.
>>
>>>
>>>> if the experiment is actually working then there is certainly no
>>>> problem to "replace"
>>>> it, whereas Lenya was built in order to allow arbitrary editors, so
>>>> I don't see any
>>>> reason why we actually talk about replacement.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> because it is too much work to add a new resource type
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> this depends very much on the Schema. Also if there would be a
>> binding between
>> the schema and the XSLT (by an XSLT) then it should be very simple.
>>
>> But again I don't know why we have to have this discussion before anyone
>> has actually tested Torsten's solution and used it in production for
>> a certain
>> time. And even then why replacing it immediately if there is plenty
>> of room for co-existence at least for a certain amount of time. If
>> something is good, then
>> people will shift from one to the other anyway.
>>
>> Michi
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Torsten Schlabach <ts...@apache.org>.
>> But again I don't know why we have to have this discussion before
>> anyone has actually tested Torsten's solution and used it in
>> production for a certain time.
First of all, why don't you let me finish it?
>> And even then why replacing it immediately if there is plenty of
room >> for co-existence at least for a certain amount of time. If
something
>> is good, then people will shift from one to the other anyway.
I agree to the point that having a component does not hurt. It does not
cost anything to keep it around. If it get's 100% superceeded it might
make sense to remove it. One could argue though that one shouldn't
invest in it anymore. This could be expressed in the documentation such
as: "Prior to spending time on enabling additional resource types in the
Form Editor, consider rather using the new XYZ editor because ...".
But that's all in the future to me!
Talking about editors ... I will start a separate thread!
Regards,
Torsten
Michael Wechner schrieb:
> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>
>> Michael Wechner wrote:
>>
>>> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>>>
>>>> we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which
>>>> is now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> AFAIK it is maintained at Sourceforge
>>
>>
>>
>> there is no activity
>
>
>
> are you sure? The link to the mailinglists are still to the obsolete
> xmldb.org
> domain and these were non-active long time ago.
>
> Someone must have moved it to sourceforge and the one or those who have
> moved
> it must still be active.
>
> I would suggest that we give it another try.
>
>>
>>> if the experiment is actually working then there is certainly no
>>> problem to "replace"
>>> it, whereas Lenya was built in order to allow arbitrary editors, so I
>>> don't see any
>>> reason why we actually talk about replacement.
>>
>>
>>
>> because it is too much work to add a new resource type
>
>
>
> this depends very much on the Schema. Also if there would be a binding
> between
> the schema and the XSLT (by an XSLT) then it should be very simple.
>
> But again I don't know why we have to have this discussion before anyone
> has actually tested Torsten's solution and used it in production for a
> certain
> time. And even then why replacing it immediately if there is plenty of
> room for co-existence at least for a certain amount of time. If
> something is good, then
> people will shift from one to the other anyway.
>
> Michi
>
>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lenya.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> Michael Wechner wrote:
>
>> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>>
>>> we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which
>>> is now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
>>
>>
>> AFAIK it is maintained at Sourceforge
>
>
> there is no activity
are you sure? The link to the mailinglists are still to the obsolete
xmldb.org
domain and these were non-active long time ago.
Someone must have moved it to sourceforge and the one or those who have
moved
it must still be active.
I would suggest that we give it another try.
>
>> if the experiment is actually working then there is certainly no
>> problem to "replace"
>> it, whereas Lenya was built in order to allow arbitrary editors, so I
>> don't see any
>> reason why we actually talk about replacement.
>
>
> because it is too much work to add a new resource type
this depends very much on the Schema. Also if there would be a binding
between
the schema and the XSLT (by an XSLT) then it should be very simple.
But again I don't know why we have to have this discussion before anyone
has actually tested Torsten's solution and used it in production for a
certain
time. And even then why replacing it immediately if there is plenty of
room for co-existence at least for a certain amount of time. If
something is good, then
people will shift from one to the other anyway.
Michi
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
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>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Michael Wechner wrote:
> Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
>
>> we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which is
>> now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
>
> AFAIK it is maintained at Sourceforge
there is no activity
> if the experiment is actually working then there is certainly no problem
> to "replace"
> it, whereas Lenya was built in order to allow arbitrary editors, so I
> don't see any
> reason why we actually talk about replacement.
because it is too much work to add a new resource type
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Gregor J. Rothfuss wrote:
> we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which is
> now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
AFAIK it is maintained at Sourceforge
>
> combined with the amount of work it takes to customize the forms
> editor for a new resource type, it may make sense to replace it with
> an editor based on cforms. it would probably be quite easy to derive a
> binding from the schema automatically, and use the cforms widgets for
> editing.
if that is the case, then it's great, whereas one could also write a
binding between
a schema and XSLT of the current form editor
>
> apart from removing a dependency on an unmaintained code base,
see above
> this would also allow us to experiment with cforms and see if it adds
> value for lenya. i saw that torsten is currently experimenting in this
> area.
>
> WDYT?
if the experiment is actually working then there is certainly no problem
to "replace"
it, whereas Lenya was built in order to allow arbitrary editors, so I
don't see any
reason why we actually talk about replacement.
Michi
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Torsten Schlabach wrote:
>I have checked in my experimental code into the sandbox.
>It is by no mean done, but you can run it to get an idea. Have fun with it!
>
>Note: You need to update one lib on Cocoon in order for it to work. See
>README.txt!
>
>
thanks. I should have read all my emails first ;-)
Michi
>Regards,
>Torsten
>
>
>
>>we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which is
>>now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
>>
>>combined with the amount of work it takes to customize the forms editor
>>for a new resource type, it may make sense to replace it with an editor
>>based on cforms. it would probably be quite easy to derive a binding
>>from the schema automatically, and use the cforms widgets for editing.
>>
>>apart from removing a dependency on an unmaintained code base, this
>>would also allow us to experiment with cforms and see if it adds value
>>for lenya. i saw that torsten is currently experimenting in this area.
>>
>>WDYT?
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@lenya.apache.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://lenya.apache.org
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Torsten Schlabach <ts...@apache.org>.
> very cool. did you run into any difficulties integrating cforms into
> lenya?
Yes. When I did this the first time (as part of a publication, not as part
of a usecase) it took me weeks. Seriously. But this was probably because I
was lacking the overview of the overall architecture at this point in
time.
> i ask because it has been a topic of interest on the user list
> recently.
There is anything you need in the Cocoon that Lenya compiles. When trying
to use CForms as part of their publication, most users have two problems:
- Conceptually. You need to turn the XHTML document into a form template
by just putting the fi tags in and adding a forms transformer to the page.
I think this is in that Wiki page on CForms already. You also need to use
the JXTransformer instead of the JXGenerator. This was not so obvious as
the JXTransformer is still missing in the public Cocoon documentation on
their website.
- Handling the sitemap callbacks that flow makes back to Lenya/Cocoon.
This is where I still only have a workaround, which is why the Wiki page
might not be complete yet. I currently use a Cocoon redirect, but I am not
sure this is really the way to go.
I was planning to fix this and then probably either create a CForms sample
app or integrate the registration sample from Cocoon into the Default
publication so people have something to try out.
Regards,
Torsten
> Torsten Schlabach wrote:
>> I have checked in my experimental code into the sandbox.
>> It is by no mean done, but you can run it to get an idea. Have fun with
>> it!
>>
>> Note: You need to update one lib on Cocoon in order for it to work. See
>> README.txt!
>
> very cool. did you run into any difficulties integrating cforms into
> lenya? i ask because it has been a topic of interest on the user list
> recently.
>
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Torsten Schlabach wrote:
> I have checked in my experimental code into the sandbox.
> It is by no mean done, but you can run it to get an idea. Have fun with it!
>
> Note: You need to update one lib on Cocoon in order for it to work. See
> README.txt!
very cool. did you run into any difficulties integrating cforms into
lenya? i ask because it has been a topic of interest on the user list
recently.
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Torsten Schlabach <ts...@apache.org>.
>> But it takes realy alot of time to create all stuff manually.
>> Some scripts to generate model and binding would be realy cool.
This would be natural next steps.
Will you take them?
Make sure you submit your code so we can check it in!
I am currently working on a detail which is who to get the RNG schema
definition for a resource type.
Regards,
Torsten
qMax schrieb:
> Monday, March 28, 2005, 3:44:58 AM, tschlabach@apache.org wrote: TS> I
have checked in my experimental code into the sandbox.
> TS> It is by no mean done, but you can run it to get an idea. Have fun
with it!
>
> I've cleaned up that code abit to make it appliable with random
documents
> and types.
> And it works just great!
> (except for some probably cocoon misfeatures).
> I'm already editing pages with it.
>
> But it takes realy alot of time to create all stuff manually.
> Some scripts to generate model and binding would be realy cool.
>
> I'd suggest also a form template generation:
> say, if no custom template found in the place,
> then generate default page from model on the fly.
> Just an idea.
>
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
qMax wrote:
>Monday, March 28, 2005, 3:44:58 AM, tschlabach@apache.org wrote:
>TS> I have checked in my experimental code into the sandbox.
>TS> It is by no mean done, but you can run it to get an idea. Have fun with it!
>
>I've cleaned up that code abit to make it appliable with random documents
>and types.
>And it works just great!
>(except for some probably cocoon misfeatures).
>I'm already editing pages with it.
>
>
can you submit a patch (or have you submitted one already)?
>But it takes realy alot of time to create all stuff manually.
>Some scripts to generate model and binding would be realy cool.
>
>
agreed (the same is true for the current form based editor)
Michi
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
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Re[2]: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by qMax <qm...@mediasoft.ru>.
Monday, March 28, 2005, 3:44:58 AM, tschlabach@apache.org wrote:
TS> I have checked in my experimental code into the sandbox.
TS> It is by no mean done, but you can run it to get an idea. Have fun with it!
I've cleaned up that code abit to make it appliable with random documents
and types.
And it works just great!
(except for some probably cocoon misfeatures).
I'm already editing pages with it.
But it takes realy alot of time to create all stuff manually.
Some scripts to generate model and binding would be realy cool.
I'd suggest also a form template generation:
say, if no custom template found in the place,
then generate default page from model on the fly.
Just an idea.
--
qMax
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Re[3]: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by qMax <qm...@mediasoft.ru>.
q> javascript misses org.apache.cocoon.forms.formmodel.WidgetState
q> it is not in cocoon-2.1.5 forms block.
it is in 2.1.7, i have old release.
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Re[2]: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by qMax <qm...@mediasoft.ru>.
Monday, March 28, 2005, 3:44:58 AM, tschlabach@apache.org wrote:
TS> I have checked in my experimental code into the sandbox.
TS> It is by no mean done, but you can run it to get an idea. Have fun with it!
javascript misses org.apache.cocoon.forms.formmodel.WidgetState
it is not in cocoon-2.1.5 forms block.
cause: org.mozilla.javascript.EvaluatorException: "file:/home/LAMED/lenya/usecases/cformedit/flow/forms_flow_example.js", line 134: Not a Java class: [JavaPackage org.apache.cocoon.forms.formmodel.WidgetState]
If i get right, the files to look at are
cformedit/forms/linkform_*.xml ?
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Torsten Schlabach <ts...@apache.org>.
I have checked in my experimental code into the sandbox.
It is by no mean done, but you can run it to get an idea. Have fun with it!
Note: You need to update one lib on Cocoon in order for it to work. See
README.txt!
Regards,
Torsten
> we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which is
> now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
>
> combined with the amount of work it takes to customize the forms editor
> for a new resource type, it may make sense to replace it with an editor
> based on cforms. it would probably be quite easy to derive a binding
> from the schema automatically, and use the cforms widgets for editing.
>
> apart from removing a dependency on an unmaintained code base, this
> would also allow us to experiment with cforms and see if it adds value
> for lenya. i saw that torsten is currently experimenting in this area.
>
> WDYT?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Torsten Schlabach wrote:
>>xupdate
>>
>>
>
>What's that?
>
>
>
http://xmldb-org.sourceforge.net/xupdate/
>>i saw that torsten is currently experimenting in this area.
>>
>>
>
>Indeed. I have created a cformsedit usecase which at this point in time is
>just for the links doctype. But I was thinking exactly what Gregor
>suggests:
>
>It should be possible to automate the generation of a binding and the
>forms model somehow. I found a bug in Cocoon which held me up a bit in
>getting this done, but the links demo already works. I just need to do
>some polishing of the code, then I wanted to put it in the sandbox and ask
>for comments / input.
>
>
it definitely makes sense to add this to the sandbox
Michi
>Regards,
>Torsten
>
>
>
>>we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which is
>>now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
>>
>>combined with the amount of work it takes to customize the forms editor
>>for a new resource type, it may make sense to replace it with an editor
>>based on cforms. it would probably be quite easy to derive a binding
>>from the schema automatically, and use the cforms widgets for editing.
>>
>>apart from removing a dependency on an unmaintained code base, this
>>would also allow us to experiment with cforms and see if it adds value
>>for lenya. i saw that torsten is currently experimenting in this area.
>>
>>WDYT?
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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--
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Re: [RT] Replacing the Forms Editor with CForms
Posted by Torsten Schlabach <ts...@apache.org>.
> xupdate
What's that?
> i saw that torsten is currently experimenting in this area.
Indeed. I have created a cformsedit usecase which at this point in time is
just for the links doctype. But I was thinking exactly what Gregor
suggests:
It should be possible to automate the generation of a binding and the
forms model somehow. I found a bug in Cocoon which held me up a bit in
getting this done, but the links demo already works. I just need to do
some polishing of the code, then I wanted to put it in the sandbox and ask
for comments / input.
Regards,
Torsten
> we recently had some discussions about the state of xupdate (which is
> now unmaintained for all practical purposes).
>
> combined with the amount of work it takes to customize the forms editor
> for a new resource type, it may make sense to replace it with an editor
> based on cforms. it would probably be quite easy to derive a binding
> from the schema automatically, and use the cforms widgets for editing.
>
> apart from removing a dependency on an unmaintained code base, this
> would also allow us to experiment with cforms and see if it adds value
> for lenya. i saw that torsten is currently experimenting in this area.
>
> WDYT?
>
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