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Posted to user@spark.apache.org by Nick Chammas <ni...@gmail.com> on 2014/12/24 21:50:18 UTC
Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far as
I can tell) where they ask them:
- Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
- This mailing list
The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion that is
part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a broader
range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
<http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
have emerged with this mailing list:
- It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
specifically.
- It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information across
disparate threads.
- It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by extension,
hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based around
straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to conjure
up for themselves.
I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
<http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on top of,
this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to these
problems.
Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same people
who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
<http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community would
benefit from.
For example:
- When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack Overflow.
- It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
- *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
- You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
- Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
- There is a built-in option for mailing list support which forwards all
activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which allows for
creation of new posts via email.
What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way to
discus Spark?
There are a few options we can consider:
1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow Discourse to
act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
<https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>,
allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they want.
(This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this user
list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community on
this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed by
Discourse.)
3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
4. Something else.
What does everyone think?
Nick
--
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Nicholas Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>.
I agree with Sean that a Spark-specific Stack Exchange likely won't help
and almost certainly won't make it out of Area 51. The idea certainly
sounds nice from our perspective as Spark users, but it doesn't mesh with
the structure of Stack Exchange or the criteria for creating new sites.
On Thu Jan 22 2015 at 1:23:14 PM Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com> wrote:
> FWIW I am a moderator for datascience.stackexchange.com, and even that
> hasn't really achieved the critical mass that SE sites are supposed
> to: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/55053/data-science
>
> I think a Spark site would have a lot less traffic. One annoyance is
> that people can't figure out when to post on SO vs Data Science vs
> Cross Validated. A Spark site would have the same problem,
> fragmentation and cross posting with SO. I don't think this would be
> accepted as a StackExchange site and don't think it helps.
>
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:16 PM, pierred <pi...@demartines.com> wrote:
> >
> > A dedicated stackexchange site for Apache Spark sounds to me like the
> > logical solution. Less trolling, more enthusiasm, and with the
> > participation of the people on this list, I think it would very quickly
> > become the reference for many technical questions, as well as a great
> > vehicle to promote the awesomeness of Spark.
>
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Marcelo Vanzin <va...@cloudera.com>.
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com> wrote:
> I think a Spark site would have a lot less traffic. One annoyance is
> that people can't figure out when to post on SO vs Data Science vs
> Cross Validated.
Another is that a lot of the discussions we see on the Spark users
list would be closed very quickly at Stack Overflow. Long and abstract
discussions are generally a good recipe to get your question closed.
Which is an argument for why Discourse would be more appropriate, I
guess.
Finally, maybe I'm showing my age, but I really dislike having to
follow lots of different places. What would happen is that,
personally, I'd end up either ignoring any new discussion forum, or
just treating it like a mailing list and doing everything by e-mail.
Now get off my lawn.
--
Marcelo
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com>.
FWIW I am a moderator for datascience.stackexchange.com, and even that
hasn't really achieved the critical mass that SE sites are supposed
to: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/55053/data-science
I think a Spark site would have a lot less traffic. One annoyance is
that people can't figure out when to post on SO vs Data Science vs
Cross Validated. A Spark site would have the same problem,
fragmentation and cross posting with SO. I don't think this would be
accepted as a StackExchange site and don't think it helps.
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 6:16 PM, pierred <pi...@demartines.com> wrote:
>
> A dedicated stackexchange site for Apache Spark sounds to me like the
> logical solution. Less trolling, more enthusiasm, and with the
> participation of the people on this list, I think it would very quickly
> become the reference for many technical questions, as well as a great
> vehicle to promote the awesomeness of Spark.
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by pierred <pi...@demartines.com>.
Love it!
There is a reason why SO is so effective and popular. Search is excellent,
you can quickly find very thoughtful answers about sometimes thorny
problems, and it is easy to contribute, format code, etc. Perhaps the most
useful feature is that the best answers naturally bubble up to the top, so
these are the ones you see first.
One annoyance is the "troll" phenomenon, see e.g.
http://michael.richter.name/blogs/why-i-no-longer-contribute-to-stackoverflow
(that also mentions other pet peeves about SO). That phenomenon is, IMHO,
most prevalent on the stackoverflow itself, perhaps less so on other
stackexchange sites.
At the same time, I do appreciate the pressure to provide well-written,
concise, and "for the posterity" questions and answers. That peer pressure
is what, to a good extent, makes the material on SO so valuable and useful.
It is probably a tricky balance to strike.
A dedicated stackexchange site for Apache Spark sounds to me like the
logical solution. Less trolling, more enthusiasm, and with the
participation of the people on this list, I think it would very quickly
become the reference for many technical questions, as well as a great
vehicle to promote the awesomeness of Spark.
--
View this message in context: http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21321.html
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Nicholas Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>.
The Stack Exchange community will not support creating a whole new site
just for Spark (otherwise you’d see dedicated sites for much larger topics
like “Python”). Their tagging system works well enough to separate
questions about different topics, and the apache-spark
<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark> tag on Stack
Overflow is already doing pretty well.
The ASF as well as this community will also not support any migration of
the mailing list to another system due to ASF rules
<http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> and community
fragmentation.
Realistically, the only options available to us that I see are options 1
and 3 from my original email (which can be used together).
Option 3: Change the culture around the user list. Encourage people to use
Stack Overflow whenever possible, and this list only when their question
doesn’t fit SO’s strict rules.
Option 1: Work with the ASF and the Discourse teams to allow Discourse to
be deployed as an overlay on top of this existing mailing list. (e.g. Like
a new UI on top of an old database.)
The goal of both changes would be to make the user list more usable.
Nick
On 2015년 1월 17일 (토) at 오전 8:51 Andrew Ash <an...@andrewash.com> wrote:
People can continue using the stack exchange sites as is with no additional
> work from the Spark team. I would not support migrating our mailing lists
> yet again to another system like Discourse because I fear fragmentation of
> the community between the many sites.
>
> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 6:24 AM, pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi, guys!
>>
>> I'm reviving this old question from Nick Chammas with a new proposal: what
>> do you think about creating a separate Stack Exchange 'Apache Spark' site
>> (like 'philosophy' and 'English' etc.)?
>>
>> I'm not sure what would be the best way to deal with user and dev lists,
>> though - to merge them into one or create two separate sites...
>>
>> And I don't know it it's at all possible to migrate current lists to stack
>> exchange, but I believe it would be an improvement over the current
>> situation. People are used to stack exchange, it's easy to use and search,
>> topics (Spark SQL, Streaming, Graphx) could be marked with tags for easy
>> filtering, code formatting is super easy etc.
>>
>> What do you all think?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Chammas wrote
>> > When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far
>> as
>> > I can tell) where they ask them:
>> >
>> > - Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
>> > <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
>> > - This mailing list
>> >
>> > The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion that
>> > is
>> > part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a broader
>> > range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
>> > <http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
>> >
>> > As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
>> > have emerged with this mailing list:
>> >
>> > - It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
>> > interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
>> > specifically.
>> > - It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information
>> across
>> > disparate threads.
>> > - It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by extension,
>> > hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
>> >
>> > There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based
>> > around
>> > straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to
>> conjure
>> > up for themselves.
>> >
>> > I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
>> > <http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on
>> top
>> > of,
>> > this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to
>> these
>> > problems.
>> >
>> > Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same
>> people
>> > who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
>> > <http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community
>> would
>> > benefit from.
>> >
>> > For example:
>> >
>> > - When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
>> > existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack
>> Overflow.
>> > - It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
>> > - *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
>> > - You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
>> > - Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
>> > - There is a built-in option for mailing list support which forwards
>> > all
>> > activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which allows for
>> > creation of new posts via email.
>> >
>> > What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way to
>> > discus Spark?
>> >
>> > There are a few options we can consider:
>> >
>> > 1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow Discourse
>> > to
>> > act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
>> >
>> > <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-
>> end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>,
>> > allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they
>> want.
>> > (This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
>> > 2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this
>> > user
>> > list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community
>> > on
>> > this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed
>> by
>> > Discourse.)
>> > 3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
>> > instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
>> > 4. Something else.
>> >
>> > What does everyone think?
>> >
>> > Nick
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://apache-spark-user-list.
>> 1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-
>> list-tp20851p21203.html
>> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>>
>>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Andrew Ash <an...@andrewash.com>.
People can continue using the stack exchange sites as is with no additional
work from the Spark team. I would not support migrating our mailing lists
yet again to another system like Discourse because I fear fragmentation of
the community between the many sites.
On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 6:24 AM, pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, guys!
>
> I'm reviving this old question from Nick Chammas with a new proposal: what
> do you think about creating a separate Stack Exchange 'Apache Spark' site
> (like 'philosophy' and 'English' etc.)?
>
> I'm not sure what would be the best way to deal with user and dev lists,
> though - to merge them into one or create two separate sites...
>
> And I don't know it it's at all possible to migrate current lists to stack
> exchange, but I believe it would be an improvement over the current
> situation. People are used to stack exchange, it's easy to use and search,
> topics (Spark SQL, Streaming, Graphx) could be marked with tags for easy
> filtering, code formatting is super easy etc.
>
> What do you all think?
>
>
>
> Nick Chammas wrote
> > When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far
> as
> > I can tell) where they ask them:
> >
> > - Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
> > <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
> > - This mailing list
> >
> > The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion that
> > is
> > part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a broader
> > range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
> > <http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
> >
> > As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
> > have emerged with this mailing list:
> >
> > - It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
> > interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
> > specifically.
> > - It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information across
> > disparate threads.
> > - It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by extension,
> > hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
> >
> > There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based
> > around
> > straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to
> conjure
> > up for themselves.
> >
> > I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
> > <http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on
> top
> > of,
> > this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to these
> > problems.
> >
> > Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same
> people
> > who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
> > <http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community
> would
> > benefit from.
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > - When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
> > existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack
> Overflow.
> > - It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
> > - *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
> > - You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
> > - Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
> > - There is a built-in option for mailing list support which forwards
> > all
> > activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which allows for
> > creation of new posts via email.
> >
> > What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way to
> > discus Spark?
> >
> > There are a few options we can consider:
> >
> > 1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow Discourse
> > to
> > act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
> >
> > <
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>
> ;,
> > allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they
> want.
> > (This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
> > 2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this
> > user
> > list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community
> > on
> > this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed
> by
> > Discourse.)
> > 3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
> > instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
> > 4. Something else.
> >
> > What does everyone think?
> >
> > Nick
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21203.html
> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com>.
Hi, guys!
I'm reviving this old question from Nick Chammas with a new proposal: what
do you think about creating a separate Stack Exchange 'Apache Spark' site
(like 'philosophy' and 'English' etc.)?
I'm not sure what would be the best way to deal with user and dev lists,
though - to merge them into one or create two separate sites...
And I don't know it it's at all possible to migrate current lists to stack
exchange, but I believe it would be an improvement over the current
situation. People are used to stack exchange, it's easy to use and search,
topics (Spark SQL, Streaming, Graphx) could be marked with tags for easy
filtering, code formatting is super easy etc.
What do you all think?
Nick Chammas wrote
> When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far as
> I can tell) where they ask them:
>
> - Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
> <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
> - This mailing list
>
> The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion that
> is
> part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a broader
> range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
> <http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
>
> As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
> have emerged with this mailing list:
>
> - It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
> interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
> specifically.
> - It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information across
> disparate threads.
> - It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by extension,
> hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
>
> There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based
> around
> straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to conjure
> up for themselves.
>
> I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
> <http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on top
> of,
> this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to these
> problems.
>
> Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same people
> who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
> <http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community would
> benefit from.
>
> For example:
>
> - When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
> existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack Overflow.
> - It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
> - *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
> - You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
> - Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
> - There is a built-in option for mailing list support which forwards
> all
> activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which allows for
> creation of new posts via email.
>
> What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way to
> discus Spark?
>
> There are a few options we can consider:
>
> 1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow Discourse
> to
> act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
>
> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>,
> allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they want.
> (This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
> 2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this
> user
> list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community
> on
> this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed by
> Discourse.)
> 3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
> instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
> 4. Something else.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
> Nick
>
--
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Nicholas Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for providing that additional background, Josh.
It looks like many people on that Google Groups thread wanted a better
interface than is offered by the Apache mailing lists. Some even raised the
idea of a bi-directional bridge
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/spark-users/vtg-5db8JWY/Z37CbNJSvQAJ>,
like I proposed on the Discourse Meta forum
<https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>
.
Tobias wrote:
uh, I would have expected a rather heated discussion, but the opposite
seems to be the case ;-)
Well, it’s the holidays, so people may just be away. :)
On the other hand, I suspect that part of the lack of responses comes from
1) people not finding this thread due to the volume of mail on the list and
the poor interface, and 2) people having long ago given up on the list and
moved on—specifically, people who cared about the discussion platform we
used and knew there were better options out there.
That’s the scary and disappointing aspect to this. We’ll likely never hear
from the people who long ago found this mailing list hard to use.
Increasingly, we will be left with 1) a dwindling group of hardcore
devotees who are willing to put up with the list and somehow still squeeze
value out of it, and 2) waves of new users who come, throw a few new posts
into the chaos, and then leave, disappointed.
Option 3 from my initial email (keep the list as-is and just encourage
people to post on Stack Overflow when possible) does currently seem like
the most realistic option we have to making this list more usable. Though I
look forward to hearing what Josh and others have to say about the matter.
Nick
On Fri Dec 26 2014 at 2:11:56 AM Josh Rosen <ro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We have a mirror of the user and developer mailing lists on Nabble, but
> unfortunately this has led to significant usability issues because users
> may attempt to post messages through Nabble which silently fail to get
> posted to the actual Apache list and thus are never read by most
> subscribers:
> http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/Nabble-mailing-list-mirror-errors-quot-This-post-has-NOT-been-accepted-by-the-mailing-list-yet-quot-td9772.html.
> In fact, there are replies to this very thread that were not properly
> mirrored from the Apache list to Nabble.
>
> Before Spark moved to Apache, our mailing list was hosted on Google
> Groups. Several community members were in favor of keeping the discussion
> list on Google Groups, since its interface is a bit more user-friendly:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/spark-users/vtg-5db8JWY
>
> See also:
> https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-dev/201308.mbox/%3CCE3C361B.FC97F%25chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov%3E
>
> Since Andy mentioned IRC, there's actually an #apache-spark channel on
> Freenode (I idle there sometimes).
>
> I'll comment more on the actual proposals here in a separate followup
> email, but I just wanted to add a bit of additional context in the meantime.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer <tg...@preferred.jp> wrote:
>
>> Nick,
>>
>> uh, I would have expected a rather heated discussion, but the opposite
>> seems to be the case ;-)
>>
>> Independent of my personal preferences w.r.t. usability, habits etc., I
>> think it is not good for a software/tool/framework if questions and
>> discussions are spread over too many places. I guess everyone of us knows
>> an example of where this makes/has made it very hard for newcomers to get
>> started ;-)
>>
>> As it is now, I think the mailing list has somewhat of an "official"
>> touch, while Stack Overflow is, well, Stack Overflow ;-) To introduce
>> another discussion platform next to the mailing list (your proposal (2.))
>> would increase confusion, the number of double-postings and, as you said,
>> effectively fork the community. Your proposal (1.) sounds attractive, but I
>> highly doubt that the user experience can match people's expectations
>> towards the "pure" solution on either the mailing list or Discourse, given
>> the rather different discussion styles.
>>
>> Having said that, I totally agree to the points you mentioned; even just
>> linking to a thread where a question has been discussed before is very
>> time-consuming and I would be happy to use a platform where all those
>> points are addressed. Stack Overflow seems to provide that, too, and except
>> for the "broader range of discussions" you mentioned, I don't see the
>> benefit of using Discourse over Stack Overflow. So personally, I would
>> suggest to go with (3.) and encourage SO as a platform for questions that
>> are ok to be asked there and try to reduce/focus mailing list communication
>> for everything else. (Note that this is pretty much the same state as now
>> plus "encouraging people" in an unspecified way, which means that maybe
>> nothing changes at all.)
>>
>> Just my 2 cent,
>> Tobias
>>
>>
>> On Wed Dec 24 2014 at 21:50:48 Nick Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far
>>>> as I can tell) where they ask them:
>>>>
>>>> - Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
>>>> <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
>>>> - This mailing list
>>>>
>>>> The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion
>>>> that is part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a
>>>> broader range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
>>>> <http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
>>>>
>>>> As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
>>>> have emerged with this mailing list:
>>>>
>>>> - It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
>>>> interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
>>>> specifically.
>>>> - It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information
>>>> across disparate threads.
>>>> - It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by
>>>> extension, hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
>>>>
>>>> There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based
>>>> around straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to
>>>> conjure up for themselves.
>>>>
>>>> I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
>>>> <http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on top
>>>> of, this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to
>>>> these problems.
>>>>
>>>> Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same
>>>> people who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
>>>> <http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community would
>>>> benefit from.
>>>>
>>>> For example:
>>>>
>>>> - When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
>>>> existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack
>>>> Overflow.
>>>> - It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
>>>> - *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
>>>> - You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
>>>> - Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
>>>> - There is a built-in option for mailing list support which
>>>> forwards all activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which
>>>> allows for creation of new posts via email.
>>>>
>>>> What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way
>>>> to discus Spark?
>>>>
>>>> There are a few options we can consider:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow
>>>> Discourse to act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
>>>> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>,
>>>> allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they want.
>>>> (This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
>>>> 2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this
>>>> user list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community
>>>> on this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed by
>>>> Discourse.)
>>>> 3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
>>>> instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
>>>> 4. Something else.
>>>>
>>>> What does everyone think?
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Josh Rosen <ro...@gmail.com>.
We have a mirror of the user and developer mailing lists on Nabble, but
unfortunately this has led to significant usability issues because users
may attempt to post messages through Nabble which silently fail to get
posted to the actual Apache list and thus are never read by most
subscribers:
http://apache-spark-developers-list.1001551.n3.nabble.com/Nabble-mailing-list-mirror-errors-quot-This-post-has-NOT-been-accepted-by-the-mailing-list-yet-quot-td9772.html.
In fact, there are replies to this very thread that were not properly
mirrored from the Apache list to Nabble.
Before Spark moved to Apache, our mailing list was hosted on Google
Groups. Several community members were in favor of keeping the discussion
list on Google Groups, since its interface is a bit more user-friendly:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/spark-users/vtg-5db8JWY
See also:
https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/spark-dev/201308.mbox/%3CCE3C361B.FC97F%25chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov%3E
Since Andy mentioned IRC, there's actually an #apache-spark channel on
Freenode (I idle there sometimes).
I'll comment more on the actual proposals here in a separate followup
email, but I just wanted to add a bit of additional context in the meantime.
- Josh
On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Tobias Pfeiffer <tg...@preferred.jp> wrote:
> Nick,
>
> uh, I would have expected a rather heated discussion, but the opposite
> seems to be the case ;-)
>
> Independent of my personal preferences w.r.t. usability, habits etc., I
> think it is not good for a software/tool/framework if questions and
> discussions are spread over too many places. I guess everyone of us knows
> an example of where this makes/has made it very hard for newcomers to get
> started ;-)
>
> As it is now, I think the mailing list has somewhat of an "official"
> touch, while Stack Overflow is, well, Stack Overflow ;-) To introduce
> another discussion platform next to the mailing list (your proposal (2.))
> would increase confusion, the number of double-postings and, as you said,
> effectively fork the community. Your proposal (1.) sounds attractive, but I
> highly doubt that the user experience can match people's expectations
> towards the "pure" solution on either the mailing list or Discourse, given
> the rather different discussion styles.
>
> Having said that, I totally agree to the points you mentioned; even just
> linking to a thread where a question has been discussed before is very
> time-consuming and I would be happy to use a platform where all those
> points are addressed. Stack Overflow seems to provide that, too, and except
> for the "broader range of discussions" you mentioned, I don't see the
> benefit of using Discourse over Stack Overflow. So personally, I would
> suggest to go with (3.) and encourage SO as a platform for questions that
> are ok to be asked there and try to reduce/focus mailing list communication
> for everything else. (Note that this is pretty much the same state as now
> plus "encouraging people" in an unspecified way, which means that maybe
> nothing changes at all.)
>
> Just my 2 cent,
> Tobias
>
>
> On Wed Dec 24 2014 at 21:50:48 Nick Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far
>>> as I can tell) where they ask them:
>>>
>>> - Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
>>> <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
>>> - This mailing list
>>>
>>> The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion that
>>> is part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a broader
>>> range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
>>> <http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
>>>
>>> As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
>>> have emerged with this mailing list:
>>>
>>> - It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
>>> interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
>>> specifically.
>>> - It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information
>>> across disparate threads.
>>> - It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by
>>> extension, hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
>>>
>>> There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based
>>> around straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to
>>> conjure up for themselves.
>>>
>>> I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
>>> <http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on top of,
>>> this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to these
>>> problems.
>>>
>>> Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same
>>> people who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
>>> <http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community would
>>> benefit from.
>>>
>>> For example:
>>>
>>> - When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
>>> existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack
>>> Overflow.
>>> - It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
>>> - *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
>>> - You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
>>> - Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
>>> - There is a built-in option for mailing list support which forwards
>>> all activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which allows for
>>> creation of new posts via email.
>>>
>>> What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way to
>>> discus Spark?
>>>
>>> There are a few options we can consider:
>>>
>>> 1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow
>>> Discourse to act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
>>> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>,
>>> allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they want.
>>> (This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
>>> 2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this
>>> user list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community
>>> on this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed by
>>> Discourse.)
>>> 3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
>>> instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
>>> 4. Something else.
>>>
>>> What does everyone think?
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>
>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Tobias Pfeiffer <tg...@preferred.jp>.
Nick,
uh, I would have expected a rather heated discussion, but the opposite
seems to be the case ;-)
Independent of my personal preferences w.r.t. usability, habits etc., I
think it is not good for a software/tool/framework if questions and
discussions are spread over too many places. I guess everyone of us knows
an example of where this makes/has made it very hard for newcomers to get
started ;-)
As it is now, I think the mailing list has somewhat of an "official" touch,
while Stack Overflow is, well, Stack Overflow ;-) To introduce another
discussion platform next to the mailing list (your proposal (2.)) would
increase confusion, the number of double-postings and, as you said,
effectively fork the community. Your proposal (1.) sounds attractive, but I
highly doubt that the user experience can match people's expectations
towards the "pure" solution on either the mailing list or Discourse, given
the rather different discussion styles.
Having said that, I totally agree to the points you mentioned; even just
linking to a thread where a question has been discussed before is very
time-consuming and I would be happy to use a platform where all those
points are addressed. Stack Overflow seems to provide that, too, and except
for the "broader range of discussions" you mentioned, I don't see the
benefit of using Discourse over Stack Overflow. So personally, I would
suggest to go with (3.) and encourage SO as a platform for questions that
are ok to be asked there and try to reduce/focus mailing list communication
for everything else. (Note that this is pretty much the same state as now
plus "encouraging people" in an unspecified way, which means that maybe
nothing changes at all.)
Just my 2 cent,
Tobias
On Wed Dec 24 2014 at 21:50:48 Nick Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far
>> as I can tell) where they ask them:
>>
>> - Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
>> <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
>> - This mailing list
>>
>> The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion that
>> is part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a broader
>> range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
>> <http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
>>
>> As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
>> have emerged with this mailing list:
>>
>> - It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
>> interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
>> specifically.
>> - It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information
>> across disparate threads.
>> - It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by extension,
>> hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
>>
>> There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based
>> around straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to
>> conjure up for themselves.
>>
>> I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
>> <http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on top of,
>> this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to these
>> problems.
>>
>> Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same
>> people who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
>> <http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community would
>> benefit from.
>>
>> For example:
>>
>> - When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
>> existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack
>> Overflow.
>> - It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
>> - *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
>> - You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
>> - Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
>> - There is a built-in option for mailing list support which forwards
>> all activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which allows for
>> creation of new posts via email.
>>
>> What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way to
>> discus Spark?
>>
>> There are a few options we can consider:
>>
>> 1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow Discourse
>> to act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
>> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>,
>> allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they want.
>> (This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
>> 2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this
>> user list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community
>> on this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed by
>> Discourse.)
>> 3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
>> instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
>> 4. Something else.
>>
>> What does everyone think?
>>
>> Nick
>>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by andy petrella <an...@gmail.com>.
Nice idea, although it needs a plan on their hosting, or spark to host it
if I'm not wrong.
I've been using Slack for discussions, it's not exactly the same of
discourse, the ML or SO but offers interesting features.
It's more in the mood of IRC integrated with external services.
my2c
On Wed Dec 24 2014 at 21:50:48 Nick Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far as
> I can tell) where they ask them:
>
> - Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
> <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
> - This mailing list
>
> The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion that
> is part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a broader
> range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
> <http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
>
> As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
> have emerged with this mailing list:
>
> - It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
> interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
> specifically.
> - It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information across
> disparate threads.
> - It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by extension,
> hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
>
> There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based
> around straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to
> conjure up for themselves.
>
> I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
> <http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on top of,
> this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to these
> problems.
>
> Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same people
> who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
> <http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community would
> benefit from.
>
> For example:
>
> - When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
> existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack Overflow.
> - It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
> - *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
> - You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
> - Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
> - There is a built-in option for mailing list support which forwards
> all activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which allows for
> creation of new posts via email.
>
> What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way to
> discus Spark?
>
> There are a few options we can consider:
>
> 1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow Discourse
> to act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>,
> allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they want.
> (This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
> 2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this
> user list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community
> on this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed by
> Discourse.)
> 3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
> instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
> 4. Something else.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
> Nick
>
>
> ------------------------------
> View this message in context: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the
> Spark User list
> <http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851.html>
> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive
> <http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/> at Nabble.com.
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com>.
I like the idea and the hope that it turns 2+ places for discussions into
1, but in practice I think it will just turn it into 3+. The only thing I
can imagine is making a tool like this an overlay. Does that require much
integration work and does it affect anyone who can't use it?
People won't stop asking on SO and I don't imagine you can drop an official
project mailing list. ASF mailing lists are janky (ezmlm? Really?) and I'd
much prefer anything else but maybe simplest to leave that and try to
overlay.
On Dec 24, 2014 8:50 PM, "Nick Chammas" <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When people have questions about Spark, there are 2 main places (as far as
> I can tell) where they ask them:
>
> - Stack Overflow, under the apache-spark tag
> <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
> - This mailing list
>
> The mailing list is valuable as an independent place for discussion that
> is part of the Spark project itself. Furthermore, it allows for a broader
> range of discussions than would be allowed on Stack Overflow
> <http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>.
>
> As the Spark project has grown in popularity, I see that a few problems
> have emerged with this mailing list:
>
> - It’s hard to follow topics (e.g. Streaming vs. SQL) that you’re
> interested in, and it’s hard to know when someone has mentioned you
> specifically.
> - It’s hard to search for existing threads and link information across
> disparate threads.
> - It’s hard to format code and log snippets nicely, and by extension,
> hard to read other people’s posts with this kind of information.
>
> There are existing solutions to all these (and other) problems based
> around straight-up discipline or client-side tooling, which users have to
> conjure up for themselves.
>
> I’d like us as a community to consider using Discourse
> <http://www.discourse.org/> as an alternative to, or overlay on top of,
> this mailing list, that provides better out-of-the-box solutions to these
> problems.
>
> Discourse is a modern discussion platform built by some of the same people
> who created Stack Overflow. It has many neat features
> <http://v1.discourse.org/about/> that I believe this community would
> benefit from.
>
> For example:
>
> - When a user starts typing up a new post, they get a panel *showing
> existing conversations that look similar*, just like on Stack Overflow.
> - It’s easy to search for posts and link between them.
> - *Markdown support* is built-in to composer.
> - You can *specifically mention people* and they will be notified.
> - Posts can be categorized (e.g. Streaming, SQL, etc.).
> - There is a built-in option for mailing list support which forwards
> all activity on the forum to a user’s email address and which allows for
> creation of new posts via email.
>
> What do you think of Discourse as an alternative, more manageable way to
> discus Spark?
>
> There are a few options we can consider:
>
> 1. Work with the ASF as well as the Discourse team to allow Discourse
> to act as an overlay on top of this mailing list
> <https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-as-a-front-end-for-existing-asf-mailing-lists/23167?u=nicholaschammas>,
> allowing people to continue to use the mailing list as-is if they want.
> (This is the toughest but perhaps most attractive option.)
> 2. Create a new Discourse forum for Spark that is not bound to this
> user list. This is relatively easy but will effectively fork the community
> on this list. (We cannot shut down this mailing in favor of one managed by
> Discourse.)
> 3. Don’t use Discourse. Just encourage people on this list to post
> instead on Stack Overflow whenever possible.
> 4. Something else.
>
> What does everyone think?
>
> Nick
>
>
> ------------------------------
> View this message in context: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the
> Spark User list
> <http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851.html>
> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive
> <http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/> at Nabble.com.
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Petar Zecevic <pe...@gmail.com>.
But voting is done on dev list, right? That could stay there...
Overlay might be a fine solution, too, but that still gives two user
lists (SO and Nabble+overlay).
On 22.1.2015. 10:42, Sean Owen wrote:
>
> Yes, there is some project business like votes of record on releases
> that needs to be carried on in standard, simple accessible place and
> SO is not at all suitable.
>
> Nobody is stuck with Nabble. The suggestion is to enable a different
> overlay on the existing list. SO remains a place you can ask questions
> too. So I agree with Nick's take.
>
> BTW are there perhaps plans to split this mailing list into
> subproject-specific lists? That might also help tune in/out the subset
> of conversations of interest.
>
> On Jan 22, 2015 10:30 AM, "Petar Zecevic" <petar.zecevic@gmail.com
> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Ok, thanks for the clarifications. I didn't know this list has to
> remain as the only official list.
>
> Nabble is really not the best solution in the world, but we're
> stuck with it, I guess.
>
> That's it from me on this subject.
>
> Petar
>
>
> On 22.1.2015. 3:55, Nicholas Chammas wrote:
>>
>> I think a few things need to be laid out clearly:
>>
>> 1. This mailing list is the “official” user discussion platform.
>> That is, it is sponsored and managed by the ASF.
>> 2. Users are free to organize independent discussion platforms
>> focusing on Spark, and there is already one such platform in
>> Stack Overflow under the |apache-spark| and related tags.
>> Stack Overflow works quite well.
>> 3. The ASF will not agree to deprecating or migrating this user
>> list to a platform that they do not control.
>> 4. This mailing list has grown to an unwieldy size and
>> discussions are hard to find or follow; discussion tooling is
>> also lacking. We want to improve the utility and user
>> experience of this mailing list.
>> 5. We don’t want to fragment this “official” discussion community.
>> 6. Nabble is an independent product not affiliated with the ASF.
>> It offers a slightly better interface to the Apache mailing
>> list archives.
>>
>> So to respond to some of your points, pzecevic:
>>
>> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new
>> questions, if that’s possible) and redirect users to Stack
>> Overflow (automatic reply?).
>>
>> From what I understand of the ASF’s policies, this is not
>> possible. :( This mailing list must remain the official Spark
>> user discussion platform.
>>
>> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed
>> earlier. If a new site is created, there is no problem with
>> guidelines, I think, because Spark community can apply
>> different guidelines for the new site.
>>
>> I think Stack Overflow and the various Spark tags are working
>> fine. I don’t see a compelling need for a Stack Exchange
>> dedicated to Spark, either now or in the near future. Also, I
>> doubt a Spark-specific site can pass the 4 tests in the Area 51
>> FAQ <http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq>:
>>
>> * Almost all Spark questions are on-topic for Stack Overflow
>> * Stack Overflow already exists, it already has a tag for
>> Spark, and nobody is complaining
>> * You’re not creating such a big group that you don’t have
>> enough experts to answer all possible questions
>> * There’s a high probability that users of Stack Overflow would
>> enjoy seeing the occasional question about Spark
>>
>> I think complaining won’t be sufficient. :)
>>
>> Someone expressed a concern that they won’t allow creating a
>> project-specific site, but there already exist some
>> project-specific sites, like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu…
>>
>> The communities for these projects are many, many times larger
>> than the Spark community is or likely ever will be, simply due to
>> the nature of the problems they are solving.
>>
>> What we need is an improvement to this mailing list. We need
>> better tooling than Nabble to sit on top of the Apache archives,
>> and we also need some way to control the volume and quality of
>> mail on the list so that it remains a useful resource for the
>> majority of users.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 3:13:21 PM pzecevic
>> <petar.zecevic@gmail.com <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> I tried to find the last reply by Nick Chammas (that I
>> received in the
>> digest) using the Nabble web interface, but I cannot find it
>> (perhaps he
>> didn't reply directly to the user list?). That's one example
>> of Nabble's
>> usability.
>>
>> Anyhow, I wanted to add my two cents...
>>
>> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new
>> questions, if that's
>> possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic
>> reply?). Old
>> questions remain (and are searchable) on Nabble, new
>> questions go to Stack
>> Exchange, so no need for migration. That's the idea, at
>> least, as I'm not
>> sure if that's technically doable... Is it?
>> dev mailing list could perhaps stay on Nabble (it's not that
>> busy), or have
>> a special tag on Stack Exchange.
>>
>> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed
>> earlier. If a new site
>> is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think,
>> because Spark
>> community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>>
>> There is a FAQ about creating new sites:
>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq
>> It says: "Stack Exchange sites are free to create and free to
>> use. All we
>> ask is that you have an enthusiastic, committed group of
>> expert users who
>> check in regularly, asking and answering questions."
>> I think this requirement is satisfied...
>> Someone expressed a concern that they won't allow creating a
>> project-specific site, but there already exist some
>> project-specific sites,
>> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu...
>>
>> Later, though, the FAQ also says:
>> "If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody
>> is complaining"
>> (then you should not create a new site). But we could complain :)
>>
>> The advantage of having a separate site is that users, who
>> should have more
>> privileges, would need to earn them through Spark questions
>> and answers
>> only. The other thing, already mentioned, is that the
>> community could create
>> Spark specific guidelines. There are also 'meta' sites for
>> asking questions
>> like this one, etc.
>>
>> There is a process for starting a site - it's not
>> instantaneous. New site
>> needs to go through private beta and public beta, so that
>> could be a
>> drawback.
>>
>>
>> Like btiernay, I must say: there might be something about
>> Apache projects
>> and mailing lists that I do not know, so excuse me if that is
>> the case...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21299.html
>> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>> <ma...@spark.apache.org>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>> <ma...@spark.apache.org>
>>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Nicholas Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>.
we could implement some ‘load balancing’ policies:
I think Gerard’s suggestions are good. We need some “official” buy-in from
the project’s maintainers and heavy contributors and we should move forward
with them.
I know that at least Josh Rosen, Sean Owen, and Tathagata Das, who are
active on this list, are also active on SO
<http://stackoverflow.com/tags/apache-spark/topusers>. So perhaps we’re
already part of the way there.
Nick
On Thu Jan 22 2015 at 5:32:40 AM Gerard Maas <ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've have been contributing to SO for a while now. Here're few
> observations I'd like to contribute to the discussion:
>
> The level of questions on SO is often of more entry-level. "Harder"
> questions (that require expertise in a certain area) remain unanswered for
> a while. Same questions here on the list (as they are often cross-posted)
> receive faster turnaround.
> Roughly speaking, there're two groups of questions: Implementing things on
> Spark and Running Spark. The second one is borderline on SO guidelines as
> they often involve cluster setups, long logs and little idea of what's
> going on (mind you, often those questions come from people starting with
> Spark)
>
> In my opinion, Stack Overflow offers a better Q/A experience, in
> particular, they have tooling in place to reduce duplicates, something that
> often overloads this list (same "getting started issues" or "how to map,
> filter, flatmap" over and over again). That said, this list offers a
> richer forum, where the expertise pool is a lot deeper.
> Also, while SO is fairly strict in requiring posters from showing a
> minimal amount of effort in the question being asked, this list is quite
> friendly to the same behavior. This could be probably an element that makes
> the list 'lower impedance'.
> One additional thing on SO is that the [apache-spark] tag is a 'low rep'
> tag. Neither questions nor answers get significant voting, reducing the
> 'rep gaming' factor (discouraging participation?)
>
> Thinking about how to improve both platforms: SO[apache-spark] and this
> ML, and get back the list to "not overwhelming" message volumes, we could
> implement some 'load balancing' policies:
> - encourage new users to use Stack Overflow, in particular, redirect
> newbie questions to SO the friendly way: "did you search SO already?" or
> link to an existing question.
> - most how to "map, flatmap, filter, aggregate, reduce, ..." would fall
> under this category
> - encourage domain experts to hang on SO more often (my impression is
> that MLLib, GraphX are fairly underserved)
> - have an 'scalation process' in place, where we could post
> 'interesting/hard/bug' questions from SO back to the list (or encourage the
> poster to do so)
> - update our "community guidelines" on [
> http://spark.apache.org/community.html] to implement such policies.
>
> Those are just some ideas on how to improve the community and better serve
> the newcomers while avoiding overload of our existing expertise pool.
>
> kr, Gerard.
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, there is some project business like votes of record on releases that
>> needs to be carried on in standard, simple accessible place and SO is not
>> at all suitable.
>>
>> Nobody is stuck with Nabble. The suggestion is to enable a different
>> overlay on the existing list. SO remains a place you can ask questions too.
>> So I agree with Nick's take.
>>
>> BTW are there perhaps plans to split this mailing list into
>> subproject-specific lists? That might also help tune in/out the subset of
>> conversations of interest.
>> On Jan 22, 2015 10:30 AM, "Petar Zecevic" <pe...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ok, thanks for the clarifications. I didn't know this list has to remain
>>> as the only official list.
>>>
>>> Nabble is really not the best solution in the world, but we're stuck
>>> with it, I guess.
>>>
>>> That's it from me on this subject.
>>>
>>> Petar
>>>
>>>
>>> On 22.1.2015. 3:55, Nicholas Chammas wrote:
>>>
>>> I think a few things need to be laid out clearly:
>>>
>>> 1. This mailing list is the “official” user discussion platform.
>>> That is, it is sponsored and managed by the ASF.
>>> 2. Users are free to organize independent discussion platforms
>>> focusing on Spark, and there is already one such platform in Stack Overflow
>>> under the apache-spark and related tags. Stack Overflow works quite
>>> well.
>>> 3. The ASF will not agree to deprecating or migrating this user list
>>> to a platform that they do not control.
>>> 4. This mailing list has grown to an unwieldy size and discussions
>>> are hard to find or follow; discussion tooling is also lacking. We want to
>>> improve the utility and user experience of this mailing list.
>>> 5. We don’t want to fragment this “official” discussion community.
>>> 6. Nabble is an independent product not affiliated with the ASF. It
>>> offers a slightly better interface to the Apache mailing list archives.
>>>
>>> So to respond to some of your points, pzecevic:
>>>
>>> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if
>>> that’s possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?).
>>>
>>> From what I understand of the ASF’s policies, this is not possible. :(
>>> This mailing list must remain the official Spark user discussion platform.
>>>
>>> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new
>>> site is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because
>>> Spark community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>>>
>>> I think Stack Overflow and the various Spark tags are working fine. I
>>> don’t see a compelling need for a Stack Exchange dedicated to Spark, either
>>> now or in the near future. Also, I doubt a Spark-specific site can pass the
>>> 4 tests in the Area 51 FAQ <http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq>:
>>>
>>> - Almost all Spark questions are on-topic for Stack Overflow
>>> - Stack Overflow already exists, it already has a tag for Spark, and
>>> nobody is complaining
>>> - You’re not creating such a big group that you don’t have enough
>>> experts to answer all possible questions
>>> - There’s a high probability that users of Stack Overflow would
>>> enjoy seeing the occasional question about Spark
>>>
>>> I think complaining won’t be sufficient. :)
>>>
>>> Someone expressed a concern that they won’t allow creating a
>>> project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific sites,
>>> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu…
>>>
>>> The communities for these projects are many, many times larger than the
>>> Spark community is or likely ever will be, simply due to the nature of the
>>> problems they are solving.
>>>
>>> What we need is an improvement to this mailing list. We need better
>>> tooling than Nabble to sit on top of the Apache archives, and we also need
>>> some way to control the volume and quality of mail on the list so that it
>>> remains a useful resource for the majority of users.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 3:13:21 PM pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I tried to find the last reply by Nick Chammas (that I received in the
>>>> digest) using the Nabble web interface, but I cannot find it (perhaps he
>>>> didn't reply directly to the user list?). That's one example of Nabble's
>>>> usability.
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow, I wanted to add my two cents...
>>>>
>>>> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if
>>>> that's
>>>> possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?). Old
>>>> questions remain (and are searchable) on Nabble, new questions go to
>>>> Stack
>>>> Exchange, so no need for migration. That's the idea, at least, as I'm
>>>> not
>>>> sure if that's technically doable... Is it?
>>>> dev mailing list could perhaps stay on Nabble (it's not that busy), or
>>>> have
>>>> a special tag on Stack Exchange.
>>>>
>>>> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new
>>>> site
>>>> is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because Spark
>>>> community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>>>>
>>>> There is a FAQ about creating new sites:
>>>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq
>>>> It says: "Stack Exchange sites are free to create and free to use. All
>>>> we
>>>> ask is that you have an enthusiastic, committed group of expert users
>>>> who
>>>> check in regularly, asking and answering questions."
>>>> I think this requirement is satisfied...
>>>> Someone expressed a concern that they won't allow creating a
>>>> project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific
>>>> sites,
>>>> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu...
>>>>
>>>> Later, though, the FAQ also says:
>>>> "If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody is
>>>> complaining"
>>>> (then you should not create a new site). But we could complain :)
>>>>
>>>> The advantage of having a separate site is that users, who should have
>>>> more
>>>> privileges, would need to earn them through Spark questions and answers
>>>> only. The other thing, already mentioned, is that the community could
>>>> create
>>>> Spark specific guidelines. There are also 'meta' sites for asking
>>>> questions
>>>> like this one, etc.
>>>>
>>>> There is a process for starting a site - it's not instantaneous. New
>>>> site
>>>> needs to go through private beta and public beta, so that could be a
>>>> drawback.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Like btiernay, I must say: there might be something about Apache
>>>> projects
>>>> and mailing lists that I do not know, so excuse me if that is the
>>>> case...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21299.html
>>>> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Gerard Maas <ge...@gmail.com>.
I've have been contributing to SO for a while now. Here're few
observations I'd like to contribute to the discussion:
The level of questions on SO is often of more entry-level. "Harder"
questions (that require expertise in a certain area) remain unanswered for
a while. Same questions here on the list (as they are often cross-posted)
receive faster turnaround.
Roughly speaking, there're two groups of questions: Implementing things on
Spark and Running Spark. The second one is borderline on SO guidelines as
they often involve cluster setups, long logs and little idea of what's
going on (mind you, often those questions come from people starting with
Spark)
In my opinion, Stack Overflow offers a better Q/A experience, in
particular, they have tooling in place to reduce duplicates, something that
often overloads this list (same "getting started issues" or "how to map,
filter, flatmap" over and over again). That said, this list offers a
richer forum, where the expertise pool is a lot deeper.
Also, while SO is fairly strict in requiring posters from showing a minimal
amount of effort in the question being asked, this list is quite friendly
to the same behavior. This could be probably an element that makes the list
'lower impedance'.
One additional thing on SO is that the [apache-spark] tag is a 'low rep'
tag. Neither questions nor answers get significant voting, reducing the
'rep gaming' factor (discouraging participation?)
Thinking about how to improve both platforms: SO[apache-spark] and this ML,
and get back the list to "not overwhelming" message volumes, we could
implement some 'load balancing' policies:
- encourage new users to use Stack Overflow, in particular, redirect newbie
questions to SO the friendly way: "did you search SO already?" or link to
an existing question.
- most how to "map, flatmap, filter, aggregate, reduce, ..." would fall
under this category
- encourage domain experts to hang on SO more often (my impression is that
MLLib, GraphX are fairly underserved)
- have an 'scalation process' in place, where we could post
'interesting/hard/bug' questions from SO back to the list (or encourage the
poster to do so)
- update our "community guidelines" on [
http://spark.apache.org/community.html] to implement such policies.
Those are just some ideas on how to improve the community and better serve
the newcomers while avoiding overload of our existing expertise pool.
kr, Gerard.
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com> wrote:
> Yes, there is some project business like votes of record on releases that
> needs to be carried on in standard, simple accessible place and SO is not
> at all suitable.
>
> Nobody is stuck with Nabble. The suggestion is to enable a different
> overlay on the existing list. SO remains a place you can ask questions too.
> So I agree with Nick's take.
>
> BTW are there perhaps plans to split this mailing list into
> subproject-specific lists? That might also help tune in/out the subset of
> conversations of interest.
> On Jan 22, 2015 10:30 AM, "Petar Zecevic" <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Ok, thanks for the clarifications. I didn't know this list has to remain
>> as the only official list.
>>
>> Nabble is really not the best solution in the world, but we're stuck with
>> it, I guess.
>>
>> That's it from me on this subject.
>>
>> Petar
>>
>>
>> On 22.1.2015. 3:55, Nicholas Chammas wrote:
>>
>> I think a few things need to be laid out clearly:
>>
>> 1. This mailing list is the “official” user discussion platform. That
>> is, it is sponsored and managed by the ASF.
>> 2. Users are free to organize independent discussion platforms
>> focusing on Spark, and there is already one such platform in Stack Overflow
>> under the apache-spark and related tags. Stack Overflow works quite
>> well.
>> 3. The ASF will not agree to deprecating or migrating this user list
>> to a platform that they do not control.
>> 4. This mailing list has grown to an unwieldy size and discussions
>> are hard to find or follow; discussion tooling is also lacking. We want to
>> improve the utility and user experience of this mailing list.
>> 5. We don’t want to fragment this “official” discussion community.
>> 6. Nabble is an independent product not affiliated with the ASF. It
>> offers a slightly better interface to the Apache mailing list archives.
>>
>> So to respond to some of your points, pzecevic:
>>
>> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that’s
>> possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?).
>>
>> From what I understand of the ASF’s policies, this is not possible. :(
>> This mailing list must remain the official Spark user discussion platform.
>>
>> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new
>> site is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because
>> Spark community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>>
>> I think Stack Overflow and the various Spark tags are working fine. I
>> don’t see a compelling need for a Stack Exchange dedicated to Spark, either
>> now or in the near future. Also, I doubt a Spark-specific site can pass the
>> 4 tests in the Area 51 FAQ <http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq>:
>>
>> - Almost all Spark questions are on-topic for Stack Overflow
>> - Stack Overflow already exists, it already has a tag for Spark, and
>> nobody is complaining
>> - You’re not creating such a big group that you don’t have enough
>> experts to answer all possible questions
>> - There’s a high probability that users of Stack Overflow would enjoy
>> seeing the occasional question about Spark
>>
>> I think complaining won’t be sufficient. :)
>>
>> Someone expressed a concern that they won’t allow creating a
>> project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific sites,
>> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu…
>>
>> The communities for these projects are many, many times larger than the
>> Spark community is or likely ever will be, simply due to the nature of the
>> problems they are solving.
>>
>> What we need is an improvement to this mailing list. We need better
>> tooling than Nabble to sit on top of the Apache archives, and we also need
>> some way to control the volume and quality of mail on the list so that it
>> remains a useful resource for the majority of users.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 3:13:21 PM pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I tried to find the last reply by Nick Chammas (that I received in the
>>> digest) using the Nabble web interface, but I cannot find it (perhaps he
>>> didn't reply directly to the user list?). That's one example of Nabble's
>>> usability.
>>>
>>> Anyhow, I wanted to add my two cents...
>>>
>>> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that's
>>> possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?). Old
>>> questions remain (and are searchable) on Nabble, new questions go to
>>> Stack
>>> Exchange, so no need for migration. That's the idea, at least, as I'm not
>>> sure if that's technically doable... Is it?
>>> dev mailing list could perhaps stay on Nabble (it's not that busy), or
>>> have
>>> a special tag on Stack Exchange.
>>>
>>> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new
>>> site
>>> is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because Spark
>>> community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>>>
>>> There is a FAQ about creating new sites:
>>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq
>>> It says: "Stack Exchange sites are free to create and free to use. All we
>>> ask is that you have an enthusiastic, committed group of expert users who
>>> check in regularly, asking and answering questions."
>>> I think this requirement is satisfied...
>>> Someone expressed a concern that they won't allow creating a
>>> project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific
>>> sites,
>>> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu...
>>>
>>> Later, though, the FAQ also says:
>>> "If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody is
>>> complaining"
>>> (then you should not create a new site). But we could complain :)
>>>
>>> The advantage of having a separate site is that users, who should have
>>> more
>>> privileges, would need to earn them through Spark questions and answers
>>> only. The other thing, already mentioned, is that the community could
>>> create
>>> Spark specific guidelines. There are also 'meta' sites for asking
>>> questions
>>> like this one, etc.
>>>
>>> There is a process for starting a site - it's not instantaneous. New site
>>> needs to go through private beta and public beta, so that could be a
>>> drawback.
>>>
>>>
>>> Like btiernay, I must say: there might be something about Apache projects
>>> and mailing lists that I do not know, so excuse me if that is the case...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21299.html
>>> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Sean Owen <so...@cloudera.com>.
Yes, there is some project business like votes of record on releases that
needs to be carried on in standard, simple accessible place and SO is not
at all suitable.
Nobody is stuck with Nabble. The suggestion is to enable a different
overlay on the existing list. SO remains a place you can ask questions too.
So I agree with Nick's take.
BTW are there perhaps plans to split this mailing list into
subproject-specific lists? That might also help tune in/out the subset of
conversations of interest.
On Jan 22, 2015 10:30 AM, "Petar Zecevic" <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, thanks for the clarifications. I didn't know this list has to remain
> as the only official list.
>
> Nabble is really not the best solution in the world, but we're stuck with
> it, I guess.
>
> That's it from me on this subject.
>
> Petar
>
>
> On 22.1.2015. 3:55, Nicholas Chammas wrote:
>
> I think a few things need to be laid out clearly:
>
> 1. This mailing list is the “official” user discussion platform. That
> is, it is sponsored and managed by the ASF.
> 2. Users are free to organize independent discussion platforms
> focusing on Spark, and there is already one such platform in Stack Overflow
> under the apache-spark and related tags. Stack Overflow works quite
> well.
> 3. The ASF will not agree to deprecating or migrating this user list
> to a platform that they do not control.
> 4. This mailing list has grown to an unwieldy size and discussions are
> hard to find or follow; discussion tooling is also lacking. We want to
> improve the utility and user experience of this mailing list.
> 5. We don’t want to fragment this “official” discussion community.
> 6. Nabble is an independent product not affiliated with the ASF. It
> offers a slightly better interface to the Apache mailing list archives.
>
> So to respond to some of your points, pzecevic:
>
> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that’s
> possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?).
>
> From what I understand of the ASF’s policies, this is not possible. :(
> This mailing list must remain the official Spark user discussion platform.
>
> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new
> site is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because
> Spark community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>
> I think Stack Overflow and the various Spark tags are working fine. I
> don’t see a compelling need for a Stack Exchange dedicated to Spark, either
> now or in the near future. Also, I doubt a Spark-specific site can pass the
> 4 tests in the Area 51 FAQ <http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq>:
>
> - Almost all Spark questions are on-topic for Stack Overflow
> - Stack Overflow already exists, it already has a tag for Spark, and
> nobody is complaining
> - You’re not creating such a big group that you don’t have enough
> experts to answer all possible questions
> - There’s a high probability that users of Stack Overflow would enjoy
> seeing the occasional question about Spark
>
> I think complaining won’t be sufficient. :)
>
> Someone expressed a concern that they won’t allow creating a
> project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific sites,
> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu…
>
> The communities for these projects are many, many times larger than the
> Spark community is or likely ever will be, simply due to the nature of the
> problems they are solving.
>
> What we need is an improvement to this mailing list. We need better
> tooling than Nabble to sit on top of the Apache archives, and we also need
> some way to control the volume and quality of mail on the list so that it
> remains a useful resource for the majority of users.
>
> Nick
>
>
> On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 3:13:21 PM pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> I tried to find the last reply by Nick Chammas (that I received in the
>> digest) using the Nabble web interface, but I cannot find it (perhaps he
>> didn't reply directly to the user list?). That's one example of Nabble's
>> usability.
>>
>> Anyhow, I wanted to add my two cents...
>>
>> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that's
>> possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?). Old
>> questions remain (and are searchable) on Nabble, new questions go to Stack
>> Exchange, so no need for migration. That's the idea, at least, as I'm not
>> sure if that's technically doable... Is it?
>> dev mailing list could perhaps stay on Nabble (it's not that busy), or
>> have
>> a special tag on Stack Exchange.
>>
>> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new
>> site
>> is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because Spark
>> community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>>
>> There is a FAQ about creating new sites:
>> http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq
>> It says: "Stack Exchange sites are free to create and free to use. All we
>> ask is that you have an enthusiastic, committed group of expert users who
>> check in regularly, asking and answering questions."
>> I think this requirement is satisfied...
>> Someone expressed a concern that they won't allow creating a
>> project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific
>> sites,
>> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu...
>>
>> Later, though, the FAQ also says:
>> "If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody is
>> complaining"
>> (then you should not create a new site). But we could complain :)
>>
>> The advantage of having a separate site is that users, who should have
>> more
>> privileges, would need to earn them through Spark questions and answers
>> only. The other thing, already mentioned, is that the community could
>> create
>> Spark specific guidelines. There are also 'meta' sites for asking
>> questions
>> like this one, etc.
>>
>> There is a process for starting a site - it's not instantaneous. New site
>> needs to go through private beta and public beta, so that could be a
>> drawback.
>>
>>
>> Like btiernay, I must say: there might be something about Apache projects
>> and mailing lists that I do not know, so excuse me if that is the case...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21299.html
>> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>>
>>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Petar Zecevic <pe...@gmail.com>.
Ok, thanks for the clarifications. I didn't know this list has to remain
as the only official list.
Nabble is really not the best solution in the world, but we're stuck
with it, I guess.
That's it from me on this subject.
Petar
On 22.1.2015. 3:55, Nicholas Chammas wrote:
>
> I think a few things need to be laid out clearly:
>
> 1. This mailing list is the “official” user discussion platform. That
> is, it is sponsored and managed by the ASF.
> 2. Users are free to organize independent discussion platforms
> focusing on Spark, and there is already one such platform in Stack
> Overflow under the |apache-spark| and related tags. Stack Overflow
> works quite well.
> 3. The ASF will not agree to deprecating or migrating this user list
> to a platform that they do not control.
> 4. This mailing list has grown to an unwieldy size and discussions
> are hard to find or follow; discussion tooling is also lacking. We
> want to improve the utility and user experience of this mailing list.
> 5. We don’t want to fragment this “official” discussion community.
> 6. Nabble is an independent product not affiliated with the ASF. It
> offers a slightly better interface to the Apache mailing list
> archives.
>
> So to respond to some of your points, pzecevic:
>
> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if
> that’s possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic
> reply?).
>
> From what I understand of the ASF’s policies, this is not possible. :(
> This mailing list must remain the official Spark user discussion platform.
>
> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If
> a new site is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I
> think, because Spark community can apply different guidelines for
> the new site.
>
> I think Stack Overflow and the various Spark tags are working fine. I
> don’t see a compelling need for a Stack Exchange dedicated to Spark,
> either now or in the near future. Also, I doubt a Spark-specific site
> can pass the 4 tests in the Area 51 FAQ
> <http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq>:
>
> * Almost all Spark questions are on-topic for Stack Overflow
> * Stack Overflow already exists, it already has a tag for Spark, and
> nobody is complaining
> * You’re not creating such a big group that you don’t have enough
> experts to answer all possible questions
> * There’s a high probability that users of Stack Overflow would
> enjoy seeing the occasional question about Spark
>
> I think complaining won’t be sufficient. :)
>
> Someone expressed a concern that they won’t allow creating a
> project-specific site, but there already exist some
> project-specific sites, like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu…
>
> The communities for these projects are many, many times larger than
> the Spark community is or likely ever will be, simply due to the
> nature of the problems they are solving.
>
> What we need is an improvement to this mailing list. We need better
> tooling than Nabble to sit on top of the Apache archives, and we also
> need some way to control the volume and quality of mail on the list so
> that it remains a useful resource for the majority of users.
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 3:13:21 PM pzecevic <petar.zecevic@gmail.com
> <ma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I tried to find the last reply by Nick Chammas (that I received in the
> digest) using the Nabble web interface, but I cannot find it
> (perhaps he
> didn't reply directly to the user list?). That's one example of
> Nabble's
> usability.
>
> Anyhow, I wanted to add my two cents...
>
> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if
> that's
> possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?). Old
> questions remain (and are searchable) on Nabble, new questions go
> to Stack
> Exchange, so no need for migration. That's the idea, at least, as
> I'm not
> sure if that's technically doable... Is it?
> dev mailing list could perhaps stay on Nabble (it's not that
> busy), or have
> a special tag on Stack Exchange.
>
> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If
> a new site
> is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because
> Spark
> community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>
> There is a FAQ about creating new sites:
> http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq
> It says: "Stack Exchange sites are free to create and free to use.
> All we
> ask is that you have an enthusiastic, committed group of expert
> users who
> check in regularly, asking and answering questions."
> I think this requirement is satisfied...
> Someone expressed a concern that they won't allow creating a
> project-specific site, but there already exist some
> project-specific sites,
> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu...
>
> Later, though, the FAQ also says:
> "If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody is
> complaining"
> (then you should not create a new site). But we could complain :)
>
> The advantage of having a separate site is that users, who should
> have more
> privileges, would need to earn them through Spark questions and
> answers
> only. The other thing, already mentioned, is that the community
> could create
> Spark specific guidelines. There are also 'meta' sites for asking
> questions
> like this one, etc.
>
> There is a process for starting a site - it's not instantaneous.
> New site
> needs to go through private beta and public beta, so that could be a
> drawback.
>
>
> Like btiernay, I must say: there might be something about Apache
> projects
> and mailing lists that I do not know, so excuse me if that is the
> case...
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21299.html
> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
> <ma...@spark.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
> <ma...@spark.apache.org>
>
RE: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Bob Tiernay <bt...@hotmail.com>.
Very well stated. Thanks for putting in the effort to formalize your thoughts of which I agree entirely.
How are these type of decisions made traditionally in the Spark community? Is there a formal process? What's the next step?
Thanks again
From: nicholas.chammas@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2015 02:55:33 +0000
Subject: Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
To: petar.zecevic@gmail.com; user@spark.apache.org
I think a few things need to be laid out clearly:
This mailing list is the “official” user discussion platform. That is, it is sponsored and managed by the ASF.
Users are free to organize independent discussion platforms focusing on Spark, and there is already one such platform in Stack Overflow under the apache-spark and related tags. Stack Overflow works quite well.
The ASF will not agree to deprecating or migrating this user list to a platform that they do not control.
This mailing list has grown to an unwieldy size and discussions are hard to find or follow; discussion tooling is also lacking. We want to improve the utility and user experience of this mailing list.
We don’t want to fragment this “official” discussion community.
Nabble is an independent product not affiliated with the ASF. It offers a slightly better interface to the Apache mailing list archives.
So to respond to some of your points, pzecevic:
Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that’s possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?).
From what I understand of the ASF’s policies, this is not possible. :( This mailing list must remain the official Spark user discussion platform.
Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new site is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because Spark community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
I think Stack Overflow and the various Spark tags are working fine. I don’t see a compelling need for a Stack Exchange dedicated to Spark, either now or in the near future. Also, I doubt a Spark-specific site can pass the 4 tests in the Area 51 FAQ:
Almost all Spark questions are on-topic for Stack Overflow
Stack Overflow already exists, it already has a tag for Spark, and nobody is complaining
You’re not creating such a big group that you don’t have enough experts to answer all possible questions
There’s a high probability that users of Stack Overflow would enjoy seeing the occasional question about Spark
I think complaining won’t be sufficient. :)
Someone expressed a concern that they won’t allow creating a project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific sites, like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu…
The communities for these projects are many, many times larger than the Spark community is or likely ever will be, simply due to the nature of the problems they are solving.
What we need is an improvement to this mailing list. We need better tooling than Nabble to sit on top of the Apache archives, and we also need some way to control the volume and quality of mail on the list so that it remains a useful resource for the majority of users.
Nick
On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 3:13:21 PM pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I tried to find the last reply by Nick Chammas (that I received in the
digest) using the Nabble web interface, but I cannot find it (perhaps he
didn't reply directly to the user list?). That's one example of Nabble's
usability.
Anyhow, I wanted to add my two cents...
Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that's
possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?). Old
questions remain (and are searchable) on Nabble, new questions go to Stack
Exchange, so no need for migration. That's the idea, at least, as I'm not
sure if that's technically doable... Is it?
dev mailing list could perhaps stay on Nabble (it's not that busy), or have
a special tag on Stack Exchange.
Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new site
is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because Spark
community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
There is a FAQ about creating new sites: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq
It says: "Stack Exchange sites are free to create and free to use. All we
ask is that you have an enthusiastic, committed group of expert users who
check in regularly, asking and answering questions."
I think this requirement is satisfied...
Someone expressed a concern that they won't allow creating a
project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific sites,
like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu...
Later, though, the FAQ also says:
"If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody is complaining"
(then you should not create a new site). But we could complain :)
The advantage of having a separate site is that users, who should have more
privileges, would need to earn them through Spark questions and answers
only. The other thing, already mentioned, is that the community could create
Spark specific guidelines. There are also 'meta' sites for asking questions
like this one, etc.
There is a process for starting a site - it's not instantaneous. New site
needs to go through private beta and public beta, so that could be a
drawback.
Like btiernay, I must say: there might be something about Apache projects
and mailing lists that I do not know, so excuse me if that is the case...
--
View this message in context: http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21299.html
Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Nicholas Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>.
I think a few things need to be laid out clearly:
1. This mailing list is the “official” user discussion platform. That
is, it is sponsored and managed by the ASF.
2. Users are free to organize independent discussion platforms focusing
on Spark, and there is already one such platform in Stack Overflow under
the apache-spark and related tags. Stack Overflow works quite well.
3. The ASF will not agree to deprecating or migrating this user list to
a platform that they do not control.
4. This mailing list has grown to an unwieldy size and discussions are
hard to find or follow; discussion tooling is also lacking. We want to
improve the utility and user experience of this mailing list.
5. We don’t want to fragment this “official” discussion community.
6. Nabble is an independent product not affiliated with the ASF. It
offers a slightly better interface to the Apache mailing list archives.
So to respond to some of your points, pzecevic:
Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that’s
possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?).
>From what I understand of the ASF’s policies, this is not possible. :( This
mailing list must remain the official Spark user discussion platform.
Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new
site is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because
Spark community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
I think Stack Overflow and the various Spark tags are working fine. I don’t
see a compelling need for a Stack Exchange dedicated to Spark, either now
or in the near future. Also, I doubt a Spark-specific site can pass the 4
tests in the Area 51 FAQ <http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq>:
- Almost all Spark questions are on-topic for Stack Overflow
- Stack Overflow already exists, it already has a tag for Spark, and
nobody is complaining
- You’re not creating such a big group that you don’t have enough
experts to answer all possible questions
- There’s a high probability that users of Stack Overflow would enjoy
seeing the occasional question about Spark
I think complaining won’t be sufficient. :)
Someone expressed a concern that they won’t allow creating a
project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific sites,
like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu…
The communities for these projects are many, many times larger than the
Spark community is or likely ever will be, simply due to the nature of the
problems they are solving.
What we need is an improvement to this mailing list. We need better tooling
than Nabble to sit on top of the Apache archives, and we also need some way
to control the volume and quality of mail on the list so that it remains a
useful resource for the majority of users.
Nick
On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 3:13:21 PM pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I tried to find the last reply by Nick Chammas (that I received in the
> digest) using the Nabble web interface, but I cannot find it (perhaps he
> didn't reply directly to the user list?). That's one example of Nabble's
> usability.
>
> Anyhow, I wanted to add my two cents...
>
> Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that's
> possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?). Old
> questions remain (and are searchable) on Nabble, new questions go to Stack
> Exchange, so no need for migration. That's the idea, at least, as I'm not
> sure if that's technically doable... Is it?
> dev mailing list could perhaps stay on Nabble (it's not that busy), or have
> a special tag on Stack Exchange.
>
> Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new
> site
> is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because Spark
> community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
>
> There is a FAQ about creating new sites: http://area51.stackexchange.
> com/faq
> It says: "Stack Exchange sites are free to create and free to use. All we
> ask is that you have an enthusiastic, committed group of expert users who
> check in regularly, asking and answering questions."
> I think this requirement is satisfied...
> Someone expressed a concern that they won't allow creating a
> project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific sites,
> like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu...
>
> Later, though, the FAQ also says:
> "If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody is
> complaining"
> (then you should not create a new site). But we could complain :)
>
> The advantage of having a separate site is that users, who should have more
> privileges, would need to earn them through Spark questions and answers
> only. The other thing, already mentioned, is that the community could
> create
> Spark specific guidelines. There are also 'meta' sites for asking
> questions
> like this one, etc.
>
> There is a process for starting a site - it's not instantaneous. New site
> needs to go through private beta and public beta, so that could be a
> drawback.
>
>
> Like btiernay, I must say: there might be something about Apache projects
> and mailing lists that I do not know, so excuse me if that is the case...
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://apache-spark-user-list.
> 1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-
> list-tp20851p21299.html
> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by pzecevic <pe...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
I tried to find the last reply by Nick Chammas (that I received in the
digest) using the Nabble web interface, but I cannot find it (perhaps he
didn't reply directly to the user list?). That's one example of Nabble's
usability.
Anyhow, I wanted to add my two cents...
Apache user group could be frozen (not accepting new questions, if that's
possible) and redirect users to Stack Overflow (automatic reply?). Old
questions remain (and are searchable) on Nabble, new questions go to Stack
Exchange, so no need for migration. That's the idea, at least, as I'm not
sure if that's technically doable... Is it?
dev mailing list could perhaps stay on Nabble (it's not that busy), or have
a special tag on Stack Exchange.
Other thing, about new Stack Exchange site I proposed earlier. If a new site
is created, there is no problem with guidelines, I think, because Spark
community can apply different guidelines for the new site.
There is a FAQ about creating new sites: http://area51.stackexchange.com/faq
It says: "Stack Exchange sites are free to create and free to use. All we
ask is that you have an enthusiastic, committed group of expert users who
check in regularly, asking and answering questions."
I think this requirement is satisfied...
Someone expressed a concern that they won't allow creating a
project-specific site, but there already exist some project-specific sites,
like Tor, Drupal, Ubuntu...
Later, though, the FAQ also says:
"If Y already exists, it already has a tag for X, and nobody is complaining"
(then you should not create a new site). But we could complain :)
The advantage of having a separate site is that users, who should have more
privileges, would need to earn them through Spark questions and answers
only. The other thing, already mentioned, is that the community could create
Spark specific guidelines. There are also 'meta' sites for asking questions
like this one, etc.
There is a process for starting a site - it's not instantaneous. New site
needs to go through private beta and public beta, so that could be a
drawback.
Like btiernay, I must say: there might be something about Apache projects
and mailing lists that I do not know, so excuse me if that is the case...
--
View this message in context: http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21299.html
Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Nicholas Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>.
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/SPARK-5390
On Fri Jan 23 2015 at 12:05:00 PM Gerard Maas <ge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Nicholas Chammas <
> nicholas.chammas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That sounds good to me. Shall I open a JIRA / PR about updating the site
>> community page?
>> On 2015년 1월 23일 (금) at 오전 4:37 Patrick Wendell <pa...@databricks.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Nick,
>>>
>>> So I think we what can do is encourage people to participate on the
>>> stack overflow topic, and this I think we can do on the Spark website
>>> as a first class community resource for Spark. We should probably be
>>> spending more time on that site given its popularity.
>>>
>>> In terms of encouraging this explicitly *to replace* the ASF mailing
>>> list, that I think is harder to do. The ASF makes a lot of effort to
>>> host its own infrastructure that is neutral and not associated with
>>> any corporation. And by and large the ASF policy is to consider that
>>> as the de-facto forum of communication for any project.
>>>
>>> Personally, I wish the ASF would update this policy - for instance, by
>>> allowing the use of third party lists or communication fora - provided
>>> that they allow exporting the conversation if those sites were to
>>> change course. However, the state of the art stands as such.
>>>
>>> - Patrick
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:43 AM, Nicholas Chammas
>>> <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > Josh / Patrick,
>>> >
>>> > What do y’all think of the idea of promoting Stack Overflow as a place
>>> to
>>> > ask questions over this list, as long as the questions fit SO’s
>>> guidelines
>>> > (how-to-ask, dont-ask)?
>>> >
>>> > The apache-spark tag is very active on there.
>>> >
>>> > Discussions of all types are still on-topic here, but when possible we
>>> want
>>> > to encourage people to use SO.
>>> >
>>> > Nick
>>> >
>>> > On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 8:37:05 AM Jay Vyas jayunit100.apache@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Its a very valid idea indeed, but... It's a tricky subject since the
>>> >> entire ASF is run on mailing lists , hence there are so many
>>> different but
>>> >> equally sound ways of looking at this idea, which conflict with one
>>> another.
>>> >>
>>> >> > On Jan 21, 2015, at 7:03 AM, btiernay <bt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I think this is a really great idea for really opening up the
>>> >> > discussions
>>> >> > that happen here. Also, it would be nice to know why there doesn't
>>> seem
>>> >> > to
>>> >> > be much interest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding some nuance of Apache
>>> >> > projects.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Cheers
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > View this message in context:
>>> >> > http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/
>>> Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-
>>> list-tp20851p21288.html
>>> >> > Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at
>>> Nabble.com.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ---------
>>> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>>> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>>> >> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Gerard Maas <ge...@gmail.com>.
+1
On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Nicholas Chammas <
nicholas.chammas@gmail.com> wrote:
> That sounds good to me. Shall I open a JIRA / PR about updating the site
> community page?
> On 2015년 1월 23일 (금) at 오전 4:37 Patrick Wendell <pa...@databricks.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Nick,
>>
>> So I think we what can do is encourage people to participate on the
>> stack overflow topic, and this I think we can do on the Spark website
>> as a first class community resource for Spark. We should probably be
>> spending more time on that site given its popularity.
>>
>> In terms of encouraging this explicitly *to replace* the ASF mailing
>> list, that I think is harder to do. The ASF makes a lot of effort to
>> host its own infrastructure that is neutral and not associated with
>> any corporation. And by and large the ASF policy is to consider that
>> as the de-facto forum of communication for any project.
>>
>> Personally, I wish the ASF would update this policy - for instance, by
>> allowing the use of third party lists or communication fora - provided
>> that they allow exporting the conversation if those sites were to
>> change course. However, the state of the art stands as such.
>>
>> - Patrick
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:43 AM, Nicholas Chammas
>> <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Josh / Patrick,
>> >
>> > What do y’all think of the idea of promoting Stack Overflow as a place
>> to
>> > ask questions over this list, as long as the questions fit SO’s
>> guidelines
>> > (how-to-ask, dont-ask)?
>> >
>> > The apache-spark tag is very active on there.
>> >
>> > Discussions of all types are still on-topic here, but when possible we
>> want
>> > to encourage people to use SO.
>> >
>> > Nick
>> >
>> > On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 8:37:05 AM Jay Vyas jayunit100.apache@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Its a very valid idea indeed, but... It's a tricky subject since the
>> >> entire ASF is run on mailing lists , hence there are so many different
>> but
>> >> equally sound ways of looking at this idea, which conflict with one
>> another.
>> >>
>> >> > On Jan 21, 2015, at 7:03 AM, btiernay <bt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > I think this is a really great idea for really opening up the
>> >> > discussions
>> >> > that happen here. Also, it would be nice to know why there doesn't
>> seem
>> >> > to
>> >> > be much interest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding some nuance of Apache
>> >> > projects.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cheers
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > View this message in context:
>> >> > http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/
>> Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-
>> list-tp20851p21288.html
>> >> > Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>> >> >
>> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>> >> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
>> >> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Nicholas Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>.
That sounds good to me. Shall I open a JIRA / PR about updating the site
community page?
On 2015년 1월 23일 (금) at 오전 4:37 Patrick Wendell <pa...@databricks.com>
wrote:
> Hey Nick,
>
> So I think we what can do is encourage people to participate on the
> stack overflow topic, and this I think we can do on the Spark website
> as a first class community resource for Spark. We should probably be
> spending more time on that site given its popularity.
>
> In terms of encouraging this explicitly *to replace* the ASF mailing
> list, that I think is harder to do. The ASF makes a lot of effort to
> host its own infrastructure that is neutral and not associated with
> any corporation. And by and large the ASF policy is to consider that
> as the de-facto forum of communication for any project.
>
> Personally, I wish the ASF would update this policy - for instance, by
> allowing the use of third party lists or communication fora - provided
> that they allow exporting the conversation if those sites were to
> change course. However, the state of the art stands as such.
>
> - Patrick
>
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 8:43 AM, Nicholas Chammas
> <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Josh / Patrick,
> >
> > What do y’all think of the idea of promoting Stack Overflow as a place to
> > ask questions over this list, as long as the questions fit SO’s
> guidelines
> > (how-to-ask, dont-ask)?
> >
> > The apache-spark tag is very active on there.
> >
> > Discussions of all types are still on-topic here, but when possible we
> want
> > to encourage people to use SO.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 8:37:05 AM Jay Vyas jayunit100.apache@gmail.com
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Its a very valid idea indeed, but... It's a tricky subject since the
> >> entire ASF is run on mailing lists , hence there are so many different
> but
> >> equally sound ways of looking at this idea, which conflict with one
> another.
> >>
> >> > On Jan 21, 2015, at 7:03 AM, btiernay <bt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I think this is a really great idea for really opening up the
> >> > discussions
> >> > that happen here. Also, it would be nice to know why there doesn't
> seem
> >> > to
> >> > be much interest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding some nuance of Apache
> >> > projects.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > View this message in context:
> >> > http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/
> Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21288.html
> >> > Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> >> >
> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >> >
> >>
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> >> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
> >>
> >
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Nicholas Chammas <ni...@gmail.com>.
Josh / Patrick,
What do y’all think of the idea of promoting Stack Overflow as a place to
ask questions over this list, as long as the questions fit SO’s guidelines (
how-to-ask <http://stackoverflow.com/help/how-to-ask>, dont-ask
<http://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask>)?
The apache-spark <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-spark>
tag is very active on there.
Discussions of all types are still on-topic here, but when possible we want
to encourage people to use SO.
Nick
On Wed Jan 21 2015 at 8:37:05 AM Jay Vyas jayunit100.apache@gmail.com
<ht...@gmail.com> wrote:
Its a very valid idea indeed, but... It's a tricky subject since the
> entire ASF is run on mailing lists , hence there are so many different but
> equally sound ways of looking at this idea, which conflict with one another.
>
> > On Jan 21, 2015, at 7:03 AM, btiernay <bt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think this is a really great idea for really opening up the discussions
> > that happen here. Also, it would be nice to know why there doesn't seem
> to
> > be much interest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding some nuance of Apache
> projects.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context: http://apache-spark-user-list.
> 1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-
> list-tp20851p21288.html
> > Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@spark.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@spark.apache.org
>
>
Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by Jay Vyas <ja...@gmail.com>.
Its a very valid idea indeed, but... It's a tricky subject since the entire ASF is run on mailing lists , hence there are so many different but equally sound ways of looking at this idea, which conflict with one another.
> On Jan 21, 2015, at 7:03 AM, btiernay <bt...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think this is a really great idea for really opening up the discussions
> that happen here. Also, it would be nice to know why there doesn't seem to
> be much interest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding some nuance of Apache projects.
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21288.html
> Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: Discourse: A proposed alternative to the Spark User list
Posted by btiernay <bt...@hotmail.com>.
I think this is a really great idea for really opening up the discussions
that happen here. Also, it would be nice to know why there doesn't seem to
be much interest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding some nuance of Apache projects.
Cheers
--
View this message in context: http://apache-spark-user-list.1001560.n3.nabble.com/Discourse-A-proposed-alternative-to-the-Spark-User-list-tp20851p21288.html
Sent from the Apache Spark User List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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