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Posted to users@subversion.apache.org by Gábor Szabó <sz...@gmail.com> on 2005/07/28 17:04:06 UTC
Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
People around are talking about postponing their SCM move till the next
best thing on earth will come in the form of Microsoft Team Foundation.
I'd like to get your opinion, have you already seen it, used it?
What killer feature does it have that Subversion might not have?
What are the key selling points besides the name of the vendor?
A couple of links:
An earlier thread from June 2004:
http://subversion.tigris.org/servlets/BrowseList?list=users&by=thread&from=201913
TM blog:
http://blogs.msdn.com/team_foundation/
A description from 2004
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnvsent/html/vsts-ext.asp
As I understand its client is part of Visual Studio while the server
is a separate product.
http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/default.aspx
Gabor
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at>.
Ahem, do you trust a company which forced VSS upon the world and never
excused for it.
Always wait until at least Version 3 with Microsoft software, always!
Been burned several times with less than V3 releases from them.
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by Gábor Szabó <sz...@gmail.com>.
On 7/29/05, Scott Palmer <Sc...@2connected.org> wrote:
> >
> Will it be included for "free" in an MSDN subscription? Thus making
> the cost for 99% of microsoft developers pretty close to 0.
As I understood from an interview I found on the MSDN website
the client will be free from certain MSDN subscriptions while the
server will cost money.
BTW here is a recent article about the server:
http://dnjonline.com/article.aspx?ID=vsts_foundation
Gabor
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by Scott Palmer <Sc...@2connected.org>.
John wrote:
>But it's very expensive, so for remote development with partners I will stick
>to SVN.
>
>
Will it be included for "free" in an MSDN subscription? Thus making
the cost for 99% of microsoft developers pretty close to 0.
Scott
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by John <js...@ecclescollege.ac.uk>.
John <jsparrow <at> ecclescollege.ac.uk> writes:
> When finished, create a patch file from start of branch to it's end;
> Switch to trunk (revision you started on);
> Apply your patch;
> Commit (or update, merge and commit as needed. Your change appears in trunk
Or just merge your branch into the trunk revision you started from!! dohhhhh!
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by John <js...@ecclescollege.ac.uk>.
Gábor Szabó <szabgab <at> gmail.com> writes:
> People around are talking about postponing their SCM move till the next
> best thing on earth will come in the form of Microsoft Team Foundation.
I like the idea of 'shelving' very much (ie personal save-points).
I've been thinking up a procedure to achieve this on SVN, and came up with:
Branch the trunk;
Commit your save points as and when needed (no one else should use your
branch);
When finished, create a patch file from start of branch to it's end;
Switch to trunk (revision you started on);
Apply your patch;
Commit (or update, merge and commit as needed. Your change appears in trunk
as one changeset, as intended);
Delete your branch;
Done.
When we get 'svnadmin obliterate' you can remove your temp branch from the
repository for good.
The other thing that's interesting in VSTS is formal merge tracking. And it's
SOAP based, not webDAV. That may be a downside I guess (no webfolder
autoversioning), but you do get to design your own protocol (in an XMLly
kinda way). That may improve clarity.
The guys at MS promise it's been designed with offline, remote development
in mind. I'm definatly going to look at it for internal development when
it's released.
But it's very expensive, so for remote development with partners I will stick
to SVN.
John
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by MikeM <th...@mgm51.com>.
On 7/28/2005 at 7:04 PM Gábor Szabó wrote:
|People around are talking about postponing their SCM move till the
next
|best thing on earth will come in the form of Microsoft Team
Foundation.
|
|I'd like to get your opinion,
=============
Microsoft software always looks best before it is released.
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by anton <an...@nezzwerk.com>.
Gábor Szabó wrote:
> People around are talking about postponing their SCM move till the next
> best thing on earth will come in the form of Microsoft Team Foundation.
>
> I'd like to get your opinion, have you already seen it, used it?
> What killer feature does it have that Subversion might not have?
> What are the key selling points besides the name of the vendor?
>
we had a quick presentation from ms a few weeks ago, this is what i got
out of it (i had zero familiarity w/ team system before, so excuse my
potential errors):
- nice overall architecture (iis + sql server + web services)
- looks pretty (although i had horrific flashbacks, since they reused
some vss6 icons)
- changesets and nice visual tracking of merges/cherry-picking of
changesets to apply
- all the proper stuff is in place - atomic commits, storing and sending
diffs, security, triggers/hooks/rules, delete/renames versioning
- they really enforce the workflow - the version control is
project-scoped, they have templates for branches, promotion of code, etc
- they really push for the whole stack of tools on top of scm:
- build server a'la cruisecontrol that can kick off builds on other
boxes, rules engine that supports that, etc, etc
- they add more types to scm - not just files, but also project
artifacts like issues, bugs, tasks, requirements, etc
- support for metadata
- server-side logging of all operations
- nice integraton into AD for everything - groups/permissions for
everything from who can lock stuff to checkouts, to visibility, etc;
configured on per-project/per-repo, per-group basis, etc
other comments
- they do not have tags, what they have is shelves - you create a sorta
branch and sorta store it somewhere - it is never reflected anywhere in
revision history. one uses it for quick builds that could be sent to
qa/other devs, etc
- no integration with other platforms - they claim they would have
vendors developing those tools to talk to scm from unix
- they promise november for shipping, but i would obviously not adopt a
1.0 product based on ms previous track record
overall, compared to vss6, they have a really good tool on paper. a lot
of it seems to be targeted as clearcase-killer as opposed to simple
standalone scm. as for real deployments, i would wait for at least a
year until there are enough tools available for unix integration and
most obvious bugs are fixed.
--
anton
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by Saulius Grazulis <gr...@akl.lt>.
On Thursday 28 July 2005 20:19, Garrett Rooney wrote:
> > It is a bit surprising how much the source control part feels inspired by
> > Subversion. They use the term working copies, have revision numbers
> > (which they call changesets) etc..
>
> That's not overly surprising. At least one of the engineers on team
> system used to be a Subversion developer, so they've definately been
> exposed to the general concepts used in Subversion.
<grin>
now, be careful that MS doesn't not obtain (software) patents on those
concepts...
</grin>
--
Saulius Gražulis
Visuomeninė organizacija "Atviras Kodas Lietuvai"
P.Vileišio g. 18
LT-10306 Vilnius
Lietuva (Lithuania)
tel/fax: (+370-5)-210 40 05
mobilus: (+370-684)-49802, (+370-614)-36366
Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
Mark Phippard wrote:
> I was just looking at this today.
>
> http://teamsystemrocks.com/tutorials/
>
> It is a bit surprising how much the source control part feels inspired by
> Subversion. They use the term working copies, have revision numbers
> (which they call changesets) etc..
That's not overly surprising. At least one of the engineers on team
system used to be a Subversion developer, so they've definately been
exposed to the general concepts used in Subversion.
-garrett
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Re: Microsoft Team Foundation vs Subversion
Posted by Mark Phippard <Ma...@softlanding.com>.
Gábor Szabó <sz...@gmail.com> wrote on 07/28/2005 01:04:06 PM:
> People around are talking about postponing their SCM move till the next
> best thing on earth will come in the form of Microsoft Team Foundation.
>
> I'd like to get your opinion, have you already seen it, used it?
> What killer feature does it have that Subversion might not have?
> What are the key selling points besides the name of the vendor?
>
> A couple of links:
I was just looking at this today.
http://teamsystemrocks.com/tutorials/
It is a bit surprising how much the source control part feels inspired by
Subversion. They use the term working copies, have revision numbers
(which they call changesets) etc..
Overall, the UI looks nice. I wonder what it is like with a project that
has more than a few dozen files in it and you are working on a WAN.
Mark
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