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Posted to dev@logging.apache.org by Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> on 2018/05/08 23:09:45 UTC
Re: [jira] [Closed] (LOG4J2-2337) JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
Gary, why did you close that ticket?
This is a valid technical question about log4j 2, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with using the log4j 2 JIRA for it. The JIRA notifications are captured on the mailing list, fulfilling the Apache requirements.
Our web site gives no indication whatsoever that certain channels would be the wrong channel to ask questions or raise problems.
I would encourage all contributors to take a very inclusive view on communications with users, users are often not experts after all.
Thoughts?
Remko
> On May 9, 2018, at 2:42, Gary Gregory (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> [ https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel ]
>
> Gary Gregory closed LOG4J2-2337.
> --------------------------------
> Resolution: Invalid
>
> Hello,
>
> Jira is not a support forum. Please ask your question on the user's mailing list: https://logging.apache.org/log4j/2.x/mail-lists.html
>
>> JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
>> -------------------------------------
>>
>> Key: LOG4J2-2337
>> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337
>> Project: Log4j 2
>> Issue Type: Bug
>> Environment: Server run on Unix environment.
>> Reporter: Arvind Sahare
>> Priority: Major
>>
>> Log4j JSONLayout with eventEol="true", prints '\r' at end of log.
>> Example:- \{"key":"value", "key":"value"}\r
>>
>> Problem - Currently we are using Splunk for log analysis, which is not able to render Log string as JSON, due to \r getting printed. Can we avoid it getting printed?
>
>
>
> --
> This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA
> (v7.6.3#76005)
Re: [jira] [Closed] (LOG4J2-2337) JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
Posted by Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com>.
> On May 9, 2018, at 14:29, Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
> Here is the problem I see. You view the Jira issue as a simple question. I agree simple questions do not belong in Jira. However, this was marked as a bug report because they are having problems getting logs into Splunk. I don’t view this as a simple question but as a request to solve their problem, either through a pointer to documentation or a change to the code. The person posing the question just wasn’t explicit about that.
>
> I see this as quite a bit different then “How do I configure logging so it will print events for x and not y?”. So while I may agree with your premise, I don’t agree with how it was applied to this issue.
Even the above question would be fine to ask on JIRA in my opinion. (In fact JIRA is often nicer because it allows formatting code and configuration examples to clarify the question and our answer.)
How are users supposed to know what questions they can ask on JIRA and which need to go to the mailing list? More importantly, what purpose would it serve to have such a rule?
>
> Ralph
>
>> On May 8, 2018, at 9:55 PM, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's a distinction we make over at Commons IIRC.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:04 PM, Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> We have not made clear to users (on our website or anywhere) that they are
>>> expected to use the mailing list for some types of communications and JIRA
>>> for other communications. If that’s ignorance then I’m ignorant too.
>>>
>>> We have no rule that I’m aware of that questions cannot be asked on JIRA
>>> but must be asked on the mailing list and I would be strongly opposed to
>>> instituting such a rule.
>>>
>>> I honestly don’t understand what problem will be prevented by making this
>>> separation. What do you mean clog up the system?
>>>
>>> Users contact us when they have a genuine problem. If we don’t have time
>>> to help them that’s fine but rejecting their attempt to reach out because
>>> they essentially “filled out the wrong form” is unnecessary in my opinion.
>>>
>>> Remko
>>>
>>>> On May 9, 2018, at 8:46, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think that is a wrong view of how to use Jira. I imagine that people
>>> post
>>>> to Jira either out of ignorance, or for not wanting to subscribe to a
>>>> mailing list before posting.
>>>>
>>>> I see Jira first as a bug tracking system and second as a project
>>>> management tool. Using Jira to answer user queries will just clog up the
>>>> system.
>>>>
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018, 17:09 Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary, why did you close that ticket?
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a valid technical question about log4j 2, and I see absolutely
>>>>> nothing wrong with using the log4j 2 JIRA for it. The JIRA notifications
>>>>> are captured on the mailing list, fulfilling the Apache requirements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our web site gives no indication whatsoever that certain channels would
>>> be
>>>>> the wrong channel to ask questions or raise problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would encourage all contributors to take a very inclusive view on
>>>>> communications with users, users are often not experts after all.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Remko
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 9, 2018, at 2:42, Gary Gregory (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [
>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337?page=
>>> com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
>>>>> ]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gary Gregory closed LOG4J2-2337.
>>>>>> --------------------------------
>>>>>> Resolution: Invalid
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jira is not a support forum. Please ask your question on the user's
>>>>> mailing list: https://logging.apache.org/log4j/2.x/mail-lists.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
>>>>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Key: LOG4J2-2337
>>>>>>> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337
>>>>>>> Project: Log4j 2
>>>>>>> Issue Type: Bug
>>>>>>> Environment: Server run on Unix environment.
>>>>>>> Reporter: Arvind Sahare
>>>>>>> Priority: Major
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Log4j JSONLayout with eventEol="true", prints '\r' at end of log.
>>>>>>> Example:- \{"key":"value", "key":"value"}\r
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Problem - Currently we are using Splunk for log analysis, which is not
>>>>> able to render Log string as JSON, due to \r getting printed. Can we
>>> avoid
>>>>> it getting printed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA
>>>>>> (v7.6.3#76005)
>>>>>
>>>
>
>
Re: [jira] [Closed] (LOG4J2-2337) JSONLayout printing \r at end of
line
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
Here is the problem I see. You view the Jira issue as a simple question. I agree simple questions do not belong in Jira. However, this was marked as a bug report because they are having problems getting logs into Splunk. I don’t view this as a simple question but as a request to solve their problem, either through a pointer to documentation or a change to the code. The person posing the question just wasn’t explicit about that.
I see this as quite a bit different then “How do I configure logging so it will print events for x and not y?”. So while I may agree with your premise, I don’t agree with how it was applied to this issue.
Ralph
> On May 8, 2018, at 9:55 PM, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's a distinction we make over at Commons IIRC.
>
> Gary
>
> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:04 PM, Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> We have not made clear to users (on our website or anywhere) that they are
>> expected to use the mailing list for some types of communications and JIRA
>> for other communications. If that’s ignorance then I’m ignorant too.
>>
>> We have no rule that I’m aware of that questions cannot be asked on JIRA
>> but must be asked on the mailing list and I would be strongly opposed to
>> instituting such a rule.
>>
>> I honestly don’t understand what problem will be prevented by making this
>> separation. What do you mean clog up the system?
>>
>> Users contact us when they have a genuine problem. If we don’t have time
>> to help them that’s fine but rejecting their attempt to reach out because
>> they essentially “filled out the wrong form” is unnecessary in my opinion.
>>
>> Remko
>>
>>> On May 9, 2018, at 8:46, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think that is a wrong view of how to use Jira. I imagine that people
>> post
>>> to Jira either out of ignorance, or for not wanting to subscribe to a
>>> mailing list before posting.
>>>
>>> I see Jira first as a bug tracking system and second as a project
>>> management tool. Using Jira to answer user queries will just clog up the
>>> system.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018, 17:09 Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gary, why did you close that ticket?
>>>>
>>>> This is a valid technical question about log4j 2, and I see absolutely
>>>> nothing wrong with using the log4j 2 JIRA for it. The JIRA notifications
>>>> are captured on the mailing list, fulfilling the Apache requirements.
>>>>
>>>> Our web site gives no indication whatsoever that certain channels would
>> be
>>>> the wrong channel to ask questions or raise problems.
>>>>
>>>> I would encourage all contributors to take a very inclusive view on
>>>> communications with users, users are often not experts after all.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Remko
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 9, 2018, at 2:42, Gary Gregory (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [
>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337?page=
>> com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
>>>> ]
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary Gregory closed LOG4J2-2337.
>>>>> --------------------------------
>>>>> Resolution: Invalid
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jira is not a support forum. Please ask your question on the user's
>>>> mailing list: https://logging.apache.org/log4j/2.x/mail-lists.html
>>>>>
>>>>>> JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
>>>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Key: LOG4J2-2337
>>>>>> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337
>>>>>> Project: Log4j 2
>>>>>> Issue Type: Bug
>>>>>> Environment: Server run on Unix environment.
>>>>>> Reporter: Arvind Sahare
>>>>>> Priority: Major
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Log4j JSONLayout with eventEol="true", prints '\r' at end of log.
>>>>>> Example:- \{"key":"value", "key":"value"}\r
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Problem - Currently we are using Splunk for log analysis, which is not
>>>> able to render Log string as JSON, due to \r getting printed. Can we
>> avoid
>>>> it getting printed?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA
>>>>> (v7.6.3#76005)
>>>>
>>
Re: [jira] [Closed] (LOG4J2-2337) JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
Posted by Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com>.
> On May 9, 2018, at 13:55, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's a distinction we make over at Commons IIRC.
I hope for the sake of the users that the Commons website documents this requirement then. :-)
>
> Gary
>
>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:04 PM, Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> We have not made clear to users (on our website or anywhere) that they are
>> expected to use the mailing list for some types of communications and JIRA
>> for other communications. If that’s ignorance then I’m ignorant too.
>>
>> We have no rule that I’m aware of that questions cannot be asked on JIRA
>> but must be asked on the mailing list and I would be strongly opposed to
>> instituting such a rule.
>>
>> I honestly don’t understand what problem will be prevented by making this
>> separation. What do you mean clog up the system?
>>
>> Users contact us when they have a genuine problem. If we don’t have time
>> to help them that’s fine but rejecting their attempt to reach out because
>> they essentially “filled out the wrong form” is unnecessary in my opinion.
>>
>> Remko
>>
>>> On May 9, 2018, at 8:46, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think that is a wrong view of how to use Jira. I imagine that people
>> post
>>> to Jira either out of ignorance, or for not wanting to subscribe to a
>>> mailing list before posting.
>>>
>>> I see Jira first as a bug tracking system and second as a project
>>> management tool. Using Jira to answer user queries will just clog up the
>>> system.
>>>
>>> Gary
>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018, 17:09 Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gary, why did you close that ticket?
>>>>
>>>> This is a valid technical question about log4j 2, and I see absolutely
>>>> nothing wrong with using the log4j 2 JIRA for it. The JIRA notifications
>>>> are captured on the mailing list, fulfilling the Apache requirements.
>>>>
>>>> Our web site gives no indication whatsoever that certain channels would
>> be
>>>> the wrong channel to ask questions or raise problems.
>>>>
>>>> I would encourage all contributors to take a very inclusive view on
>>>> communications with users, users are often not experts after all.
>>>>
>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Remko
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 9, 2018, at 2:42, Gary Gregory (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [
>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337?page=
>> com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
>>>> ]
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary Gregory closed LOG4J2-2337.
>>>>> --------------------------------
>>>>> Resolution: Invalid
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jira is not a support forum. Please ask your question on the user's
>>>> mailing list: https://logging.apache.org/log4j/2.x/mail-lists.html
>>>>>
>>>>>> JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
>>>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Key: LOG4J2-2337
>>>>>> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337
>>>>>> Project: Log4j 2
>>>>>> Issue Type: Bug
>>>>>> Environment: Server run on Unix environment.
>>>>>> Reporter: Arvind Sahare
>>>>>> Priority: Major
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Log4j JSONLayout with eventEol="true", prints '\r' at end of log.
>>>>>> Example:- \{"key":"value", "key":"value"}\r
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Problem - Currently we are using Splunk for log analysis, which is not
>>>> able to render Log string as JSON, due to \r getting printed. Can we
>> avoid
>>>> it getting printed?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA
>>>>> (v7.6.3#76005)
>>>>
>>
Re: [jira] [Closed] (LOG4J2-2337) JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
Posted by Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com>.
It's a distinction we make over at Commons IIRC.
Gary
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:04 PM, Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> We have not made clear to users (on our website or anywhere) that they are
> expected to use the mailing list for some types of communications and JIRA
> for other communications. If that’s ignorance then I’m ignorant too.
>
> We have no rule that I’m aware of that questions cannot be asked on JIRA
> but must be asked on the mailing list and I would be strongly opposed to
> instituting such a rule.
>
> I honestly don’t understand what problem will be prevented by making this
> separation. What do you mean clog up the system?
>
> Users contact us when they have a genuine problem. If we don’t have time
> to help them that’s fine but rejecting their attempt to reach out because
> they essentially “filled out the wrong form” is unnecessary in my opinion.
>
> Remko
>
> > On May 9, 2018, at 8:46, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think that is a wrong view of how to use Jira. I imagine that people
> post
> > to Jira either out of ignorance, or for not wanting to subscribe to a
> > mailing list before posting.
> >
> > I see Jira first as a bug tracking system and second as a project
> > management tool. Using Jira to answer user queries will just clog up the
> > system.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> >> On Tue, May 8, 2018, 17:09 Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gary, why did you close that ticket?
> >>
> >> This is a valid technical question about log4j 2, and I see absolutely
> >> nothing wrong with using the log4j 2 JIRA for it. The JIRA notifications
> >> are captured on the mailing list, fulfilling the Apache requirements.
> >>
> >> Our web site gives no indication whatsoever that certain channels would
> be
> >> the wrong channel to ask questions or raise problems.
> >>
> >> I would encourage all contributors to take a very inclusive view on
> >> communications with users, users are often not experts after all.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >> Remko
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On May 9, 2018, at 2:42, Gary Gregory (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [
> >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337?page=
> com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
> >> ]
> >>>
> >>> Gary Gregory closed LOG4J2-2337.
> >>> --------------------------------
> >>> Resolution: Invalid
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> Jira is not a support forum. Please ask your question on the user's
> >> mailing list: https://logging.apache.org/log4j/2.x/mail-lists.html
> >>>
> >>>> JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
> >>>> -------------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Key: LOG4J2-2337
> >>>> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337
> >>>> Project: Log4j 2
> >>>> Issue Type: Bug
> >>>> Environment: Server run on Unix environment.
> >>>> Reporter: Arvind Sahare
> >>>> Priority: Major
> >>>>
> >>>> Log4j JSONLayout with eventEol="true", prints '\r' at end of log.
> >>>> Example:- \{"key":"value", "key":"value"}\r
> >>>>
> >>>> Problem - Currently we are using Splunk for log analysis, which is not
> >> able to render Log string as JSON, due to \r getting printed. Can we
> avoid
> >> it getting printed?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA
> >>> (v7.6.3#76005)
> >>
>
Re: [jira] [Closed] (LOG4J2-2337) JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
Posted by Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com>.
We have not made clear to users (on our website or anywhere) that they are expected to use the mailing list for some types of communications and JIRA for other communications. If that’s ignorance then I’m ignorant too.
We have no rule that I’m aware of that questions cannot be asked on JIRA but must be asked on the mailing list and I would be strongly opposed to instituting such a rule.
I honestly don’t understand what problem will be prevented by making this separation. What do you mean clog up the system?
Users contact us when they have a genuine problem. If we don’t have time to help them that’s fine but rejecting their attempt to reach out because they essentially “filled out the wrong form” is unnecessary in my opinion.
Remko
> On May 9, 2018, at 8:46, Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think that is a wrong view of how to use Jira. I imagine that people post
> to Jira either out of ignorance, or for not wanting to subscribe to a
> mailing list before posting.
>
> I see Jira first as a bug tracking system and second as a project
> management tool. Using Jira to answer user queries will just clog up the
> system.
>
> Gary
>
>> On Tue, May 8, 2018, 17:09 Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Gary, why did you close that ticket?
>>
>> This is a valid technical question about log4j 2, and I see absolutely
>> nothing wrong with using the log4j 2 JIRA for it. The JIRA notifications
>> are captured on the mailing list, fulfilling the Apache requirements.
>>
>> Our web site gives no indication whatsoever that certain channels would be
>> the wrong channel to ask questions or raise problems.
>>
>> I would encourage all contributors to take a very inclusive view on
>> communications with users, users are often not experts after all.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Remko
>>
>>
>>
>>> On May 9, 2018, at 2:42, Gary Gregory (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> [
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
>> ]
>>>
>>> Gary Gregory closed LOG4J2-2337.
>>> --------------------------------
>>> Resolution: Invalid
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Jira is not a support forum. Please ask your question on the user's
>> mailing list: https://logging.apache.org/log4j/2.x/mail-lists.html
>>>
>>>> JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
>>>> -------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Key: LOG4J2-2337
>>>> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337
>>>> Project: Log4j 2
>>>> Issue Type: Bug
>>>> Environment: Server run on Unix environment.
>>>> Reporter: Arvind Sahare
>>>> Priority: Major
>>>>
>>>> Log4j JSONLayout with eventEol="true", prints '\r' at end of log.
>>>> Example:- \{"key":"value", "key":"value"}\r
>>>>
>>>> Problem - Currently we are using Splunk for log analysis, which is not
>> able to render Log string as JSON, due to \r getting printed. Can we avoid
>> it getting printed?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA
>>> (v7.6.3#76005)
>>
Re: [jira] [Closed] (LOG4J2-2337) JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
Posted by Gary Gregory <ga...@gmail.com>.
I think that is a wrong view of how to use Jira. I imagine that people post
to Jira either out of ignorance, or for not wanting to subscribe to a
mailing list before posting.
I see Jira first as a bug tracking system and second as a project
management tool. Using Jira to answer user queries will just clog up the
system.
Gary
On Tue, May 8, 2018, 17:09 Remko Popma <re...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gary, why did you close that ticket?
>
> This is a valid technical question about log4j 2, and I see absolutely
> nothing wrong with using the log4j 2 JIRA for it. The JIRA notifications
> are captured on the mailing list, fulfilling the Apache requirements.
>
> Our web site gives no indication whatsoever that certain channels would be
> the wrong channel to ask questions or raise problems.
>
> I would encourage all contributors to take a very inclusive view on
> communications with users, users are often not experts after all.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Remko
>
>
>
> > On May 9, 2018, at 2:42, Gary Gregory (JIRA) <ji...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > [
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:all-tabpanel
> ]
> >
> > Gary Gregory closed LOG4J2-2337.
> > --------------------------------
> > Resolution: Invalid
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > Jira is not a support forum. Please ask your question on the user's
> mailing list: https://logging.apache.org/log4j/2.x/mail-lists.html
> >
> >> JSONLayout printing \r at end of line
> >> -------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Key: LOG4J2-2337
> >> URL: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/LOG4J2-2337
> >> Project: Log4j 2
> >> Issue Type: Bug
> >> Environment: Server run on Unix environment.
> >> Reporter: Arvind Sahare
> >> Priority: Major
> >>
> >> Log4j JSONLayout with eventEol="true", prints '\r' at end of log.
> >> Example:- \{"key":"value", "key":"value"}\r
> >>
> >> Problem - Currently we are using Splunk for log analysis, which is not
> able to render Log string as JSON, due to \r getting printed. Can we avoid
> it getting printed?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > This message was sent by Atlassian JIRA
> > (v7.6.3#76005)
>