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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by Jeffrey Dever <js...@sympatico.ca> on 2003/02/13 21:14:37 UTC

help - multiple location of commons releases

There appears to be (at least two) locations for releases that need to 
be manually updated: one on jakarta.apache.org and one on 
www.apache.org.  Are we supposted to keep both of these manually 
updated?  Why are there two?  I have an account on deadalus, but where 
would I even go to modify what www.apache.org points to?

http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/httpclient/
http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons/release/commons-httpclient/

Jeff Dever


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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Jeffrey Dever wrote:

> There appears to be (at least two) locations for releases that need to
> be manually updated: one on jakarta.apache.org and one on
> www.apache.org.  Are we supposted to keep both of these manually
> updated?  Why are there two?  I have an account on deadalus, but where
> would I even go to modify what www.apache.org points to?

What's supposed to happen is that the Jakarta site redirects to the main
Apache site. This document is recommended reading for anyone releasing
Jakarta packages:

http://cvs.apache.org/~bodewig/mirror.html

It explains the mirroring process, and includes information on how to set
up the appropriate redirects.

--
Martin Cooper


>
> http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/httpclient/
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons/release/commons-httpclient/
>
> Jeff Dever
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>

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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
Thanks for clearing that up :-)

robert burrell donkin wrote:

> just to clear this up, jelly isn't using ibiblio to distribute an 
> official apache release. jelly is available from ibiblio but the 
> official distribution of apache software will always be done from the 
> apache web site.
>
> - robert
>
> On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 08:30 PM, Mark R. Diggory wrote:
>
>> Just to put it out there, I also notice a number of commons 
>> subprojects (jelly for one) are using http://www.ibiblio.org/maven/ 
>> for distribution.
>>  Maybe its not a stretch to dream of the day that a 
>> "www.javafind.net/www.
>> jarfind.net" (i.e. www.rpmfind.net) service exists ;-)
>>
>> -Mark Diggory
>>
>>
>> Jeffrey Dever wrote:
>>
>>> There appears to be (at least two) locations for releases that need 
>>> to be manually updated: one on jakarta.apache.org and one on 
>>> www.apache.org.
>>>   Are we supposted to keep both of these manually updated?  Why are 
>>> there two?  I have an account on deadalus, but where would I even go 
>>> to modify what www.apache.org points to?
>>>
>>> http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/httpclient/
>>> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-
>>> commons/release/commons-httpclient/
>>>
>>> Jeff Dever
>>>


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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
just to clear this up, jelly isn't using ibiblio to distribute an official 
apache release. jelly is available from ibiblio but the official 
distribution of apache software will always be done from the apache web 
site.

- robert

On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 08:30 PM, Mark R. Diggory wrote:

> Just to put it out there, I also notice a number of commons subprojects 
> (jelly for one) are using http://www.ibiblio.org/maven/ for distribution.
>  Maybe its not a stretch to dream of the day that a "www.javafind.net/www.
> jarfind.net" (i.e. www.rpmfind.net) service exists ;-)
>
> -Mark Diggory
>
>
> Jeffrey Dever wrote:
>
>> There appears to be (at least two) locations for releases that need to 
>> be manually updated: one on jakarta.apache.org and one on www.apache.org.
>>   Are we supposted to keep both of these manually updated?  Why are 
>> there two?  I have an account on deadalus, but where would I even go to 
>> modify what www.apache.org points to?
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/httpclient/
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-
>> commons/release/commons-httpclient/
>>
>> Jeff Dever
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
>
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>


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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.
Just to put it out there, I also notice a number of commons subprojects 
(jelly for one) are using http://www.ibiblio.org/maven/ for 
distribution. Maybe its not a stretch to dream of the day that a 
"www.javafind.net/www.jarfind.net" (i.e. www.rpmfind.net) service exists ;-)

-Mark Diggory


Jeffrey Dever wrote:

> There appears to be (at least two) locations for releases that need to 
> be manually updated: one on jakarta.apache.org and one on 
> www.apache.org.  Are we supposted to keep both of these manually 
> updated?  Why are there two?  I have an account on deadalus, but where 
> would I even go to modify what www.apache.org points to?
>
> http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/httpclient/
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons/release/commons-httpclient/
>
> Jeff Dever
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>



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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Jeffrey Dever <js...@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> Hmmm, so even though www.apache.org and jakarta.apache.org are
> served from the same physical machines, we are to keep two binary
> and source repositories up to date with new releases? Why isn't one
> just a softlink of the other?

softlinks and rsync don't play nicely with each other.

My preference (and this is what I've done for Ant and Regexp) would be
to have the latest release only on www.apache.org.  It is not that
difficult to apply some HTTPD rewrite magic to redirect people using
the old URL-space to the new ones.

All IMHO and I don't even have karma for the sandbox 8-)

Stefan

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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Mark R. Diggory wrote:

>
>
> Henri Yandell wrote:
> > Is there any need to support both tar.gz and .zip? With the exception of
> > some minor pain on Apple machines for tar.gz [although I've never had this
> > myself], it seems we could ditch one of these distribution mechanisms.
>
> These days, most Windows tools that support zip also support tar.gz.
> Most linux/unix distributions support both zip and tar. I'm not sure
> about apple's capabilities when it comes to zip.

A version of Apple's tar had some kind of bug. I'm not sure if that's
still there. The main problem with OS X is that the default [and only
reasonable] filing system is case insensitive [windows has this problem
though], and more painfully, the default unzipper stuffit likes to chop
filenames off at a certain length. But these are the same problems for
tag.gz and zip.

Hen


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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by "Mark R. Diggory" <md...@latte.harvard.edu>.

Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Jeffrey Dever wrote:

>>And speaking of releases, why in commons do we have two packages for
>>each release, one for source and one for binaries?  These are small
>>components where the biggest thing about them is the generated javadoc
>>which is in both.  I find that people usually download the binary drop
>>and then ask on the mailing list "where is the example code?" which is
>>of course in the source package.

>>Can't we just release one package with everything in it?  In general the
>>only thing that makes a binary a binary is that it has a packaged jar
>>file which is small anyway compared to the source and documentation.
> 
> 
> My vote would be for a distribution build, and a jar. Both downloadable.
> Most of the time I come looking for just the jar, and have to grab lots of
> other things. Sometimes I want the docs, but mainly it is the jar.
> 

I think most people who are using tools like ant or maven get the 
benifit of being able to download dependencies in jar form to be stored 
in their repositories/libraries. Having jars available via the web is 
integral to automating the process of building tools that are dependent 
on other projects.

I regularly use the ibiblio repository to get copies of the various 
apache packages I require, making my distributions much smaller overall 
by not having to distribute the jars in my tar/zip archives.

Having jars makes it possible to distribute a much smaller package with 
build script capable of getting the required jars from the site. Plus, 
if a user already has installed a package, the script can detect it and 
not download the jars for that package. Optimizing on two different 
fronts 1.) the size of my distribution  2.) reducing duplicate jar files 
on my users machines.

So, having Jars is a big +1 in my opinion

> Is there any need to support both tar.gz and .zip? With the exception of
> some minor pain on Apple machines for tar.gz [although I've never had this
> myself], it seems we could ditch one of these distribution mechanisms.
> 
> Hen

These days, most Windows tools that support zip also support tar.gz. 
Most linux/unix distributions support both zip and tar. I'm not sure 
about apple's capabilities when it comes to zip.

-Mark


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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Jeffrey Dever <js...@sympatico.ca>.
I was looking for just one physical location to manually put release 
packages, with any mirroring/grouping/multiple locations to be done 
automagicly.  Not wanting to break anything or remove old links, just 
wanting efficient use of computer resources and simple processes to follow.

Jeff.

Stefan Bodewig wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, Craig R. McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>>-1 on removing the nightly builds directory
>>>>(jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons/nightly/).
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>But shouldn't that be on cvs.apache.org?  Again, rewrite rules are
>>>your friend for people using the old URLs.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>They already are, thanks to rewrite rules :-).
>>    
>>
>
>So there is no reason to keep the old physical locations 8-)
>
>  
>
>>But there are *lots* of references in the world to the original
>>URLs, and we don't want to violate that.
>>    
>>
>
>Of course not.
>
><http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/ant/nightly/>
><http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-ant/release/v1.5.1/bin/>
><http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4/src/>
>
>all still work (and redirect to three different virtual hosts), even
>though you won't find an ant or jakarta-ant directory under
>jakarta.apache.org.
>
>I think Jeff's proposal was to stop using and communicating the old
>URLs, not to make them non-functional.
>
>Stefan
>
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>
>  
>



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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 16 Feb 2003, Craig R. McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:

>> > -1 on removing the nightly builds directory
>> > (jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons/nightly/).
>>
>> But shouldn't that be on cvs.apache.org?  Again, rewrite rules are
>> your friend for people using the old URLs.
>>
> 
> They already are, thanks to rewrite rules :-).

So there is no reason to keep the old physical locations 8-)

> But there are *lots* of references in the world to the original
> URLs, and we don't want to violate that.

Of course not.

<http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/ant/nightly/>
<http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-ant/release/v1.5.1/bin/>
<http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-ant/release/v1.4/src/>

all still work (and redirect to three different virtual hosts), even
though you won't find an ant or jakarta-ant directory under
jakarta.apache.org.

I think Jeff's proposal was to stop using and communicating the old
URLs, not to make them non-functional.

Stefan

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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2003, Stefan Bodewig wrote:

> Date: 17 Feb 2003 08:34:37 +0100
> From: Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>
> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: commons-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: help - multiple location of commons releases
>
> On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, Craig R. McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, Jeffrey Dever wrote:
>
> >> 2) jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons should be deprecated,
> >> removed or replaced with a softlink or a forward.
> >
> > -1 on removing the nightly builds directory
> > (jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons/nightly/).
>
> But shouldn't that be on cvs.apache.org?  Again, rewrite rules are
> your friend for people using the old URLs.
>

They already are, thanks to rewrite rules :-).  But there are *lots* of
references in the world to the original URLs, and we don't want to violate
that.

> Stefan

Craig

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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, Craig R. McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, Jeffrey Dever wrote:

>> 2) jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons should be deprecated,
>> removed or replaced with a softlink or a forward.
> 
> -1 on removing the nightly builds directory
> (jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons/nightly/).

But shouldn't that be on cvs.apache.org?  Again, rewrite rules are
your friend for people using the old URLs.

Stefan

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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.

On Sat, 15 Feb 2003, Jeffrey Dever wrote:

> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 2003 12:24:34 -0500
> From: Jeffrey Dever <js...@sympatico.ca>
> Reply-To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: Jakarta Commons Developers List <co...@jakarta.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: help - multiple location of commons releases
>
> Here are my suggestions for commons regarding release processes:
>
> 1) All release packages should be copied to
> www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons to allow for mirroring.

+1.  Robert has been doing this on the recent packages he's released.

> 2) jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons should be deprecated,
> removed or replaced with a softlink or a forward.

-1 on removing the nightly builds directory
(jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons/nightly/).  Lots of people want
to be able to grab the latest and greatest code, without having to check
it out from CVS and build themselves.

Is it worth the effort of migrating historical releases to
www.apache.org/dist?  Hmm, for that matter, how long do we keep historical
releases around no matter where they are?

> 3) single inclusive release package.  There should be only one release
> package that contains the license, jar, source, documentation and all
> other files for building and using the component.

Makes sense to me.  The "src" directory (could contain a copy of
everything in CVS for that component, so that it's directly buildable.

We might also think of going to just one packaging format (probably zip)
instead of two as well.

> 4) the binary jar should be uploaded to ibiblio (need to deal with
> license issue)
>

I don't think that's an Apache responsibility.  Indeed, it would be
better to create an Apache-hosted repository for Apache originated code,
and things like Maven builds should be configured to look there first.
Such a repository could also be mirrorred in the same way releases are.

> Robert,
> I have a release guide for httpclient.  It is based on the commons one,
> but more complete and accurate (I hope).  Its kept in xml form in the
> repository but is on the website in maven generated form:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/httpclient/releases.html
>
> >
> > i was considering updating the release documentation but really a
> > discussion about release procedures is probably in order first. i'll
> > volunteer to update them afterwards if a consensus forms.
> >

+1 for working towards commons-wide documentation (and use) of a common
process.

> > for the latest releases i've cut, i've added them only to the mirrored
> > directories. i've also also tried to follow the apache mirroring
> > guidelines. i've added instructions to the commons release directory
> > telling people to obtain them through the mirrors. the reason why i
> > haven'
> > t added them to the commons directory is that i want to encourage
> > downloads from mirrors since this reduces the strain on the apache
> > infrastructure.
> >
> > - robert
>

Craig


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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Jeffrey Dever <js...@sympatico.ca>.
Here are my suggestions for commons regarding release processes:

1) All release packages should be copied to 
www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons to allow for mirroring.
2) jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-commons should be deprecated, 
removed or replaced with a softlink or a forward
3) single inclusive release package.  There should be only one release 
package that contains the license, jar, source, documentation and all 
other files for building and using the component.
4) the binary jar should be uploaded to ibiblio (need to deal with 
license issue)

Robert,
I have a release guide for httpclient.  It is based on the commons one, 
but more complete and accurate (I hope).  Its kept in xml form in the 
repository but is on the website in maven generated form:
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/httpclient/releases.html

>
> i was considering updating the release documentation but really a 
> discussion about release procedures is probably in order first. i'll 
> volunteer to update them afterwards if a consensus forms.
>
> for the latest releases i've cut, i've added them only to the mirrored 
> directories. i've also also tried to follow the apache mirroring 
> guidelines. i've added instructions to the commons release directory 
> telling people to obtain them through the mirrors. the reason why i 
> haven'
> t added them to the commons directory is that i want to encourage 
> downloads from mirrors since this reduces the strain on the apache 
> infrastructure.
>
> - robert




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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On Friday, February 14, 2003, at 03:27 AM, Henri Yandell wrote:

> On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Jeffrey Dever wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, so even though www.apache.org and jakarta.apache.org are served
>> from the same physical machines, we are to keep two binary and source
>> repositories up to date with new releases? Why isn't one just a softlink
>> of the other?
>
> +1. I've not done a release since the mirroring thing, but it seems
> painful. Has the deployment documentation been updated for projects? I
> tend to dutifully follow both the Commons and Taglibs deployment routines.
>
> Other than a symlink, why not just cron a copy somehow.

i was considering updating the release documentation but really a 
discussion about release procedures is probably in order first. i'll 
volunteer to update them afterwards if a consensus forms.

for the latest releases i've cut, i've added them only to the mirrored 
directories. i've also also tried to follow the apache mirroring 
guidelines. i've added instructions to the commons release directory 
telling people to obtain them through the mirrors. the reason why i haven'
t added them to the commons directory is that i want to encourage 
downloads from mirrors since this reduces the strain on the apache 
infrastructure.

- robert


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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Jeffrey Dever wrote:

> Hmmm, so even though www.apache.org and jakarta.apache.org are served
> from the same physical machines, we are to keep two binary and source
> repositories up to date with new releases? Why isn't one just a softlink
> of the other?

+1. I've not done a release since the mirroring thing, but it seems
painful. Has the deployment documentation been updated for projects? I
tend to dutifully follow both the Commons and Taglibs deployment routines.

Other than a symlink, why not just cron a copy somehow.

> And speaking of releases, why in commons do we have two packages for
> each release, one for source and one for binaries?  These are small
> components where the biggest thing about them is the generated javadoc
> which is in both.  I find that people usually download the binary drop
> and then ask on the mailing list "where is the example code?" which is
> of course in the source package.
>
> Can't we just release one package with everything in it?  In general the
> only thing that makes a binary a binary is that it has a packaged jar
> file which is small anyway compared to the source and documentation.

My vote would be for a distribution build, and a jar. Both downloadable.
Most of the time I come looking for just the jar, and have to grab lots of
other things. Sometimes I want the docs, but mainly it is the jar.

Is there any need to support both tar.gz and .zip? With the exception of
some minor pain on Apple machines for tar.gz [although I've never had this
myself], it seems we could ditch one of these distribution mechanisms.

Hen


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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by Jeffrey Dever <js...@sympatico.ca>.
Hmmm, so even though www.apache.org and jakarta.apache.org are served 
from the same physical machines, we are to keep two binary and source 
repositories up to date with new releases? Why isn't one just a softlink 
of the other?

And speaking of releases, why in commons do we have two packages for 
each release, one for source and one for binaries?  These are small 
components where the biggest thing about them is the generated javadoc 
which is in both.  I find that people usually download the binary drop 
and then ask on the mailing list "where is the example code?" which is 
of course in the source package.

Can't we just release one package with everything in it?  In general the 
only thing that makes a binary a binary is that it has a packaged jar 
file which is small anyway compared to the source and documentation.

Whats the point?


robert burrell donkin wrote:

> hi jeff
>
> the www.apache.org location is mirrored. see 
> http://www.apache.org/dev/mirrors.html.
>
> the policy i've used for the latest beanutils and digester releases is 
> to force users to download from the mirrored site. if you do want to 
> keep a release available from the old location, there isn't really any 
> updating that needs to be done since it's just a case of dropping the 
> release off in two places.
>
> - robert
>
> On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 08:14 PM, Jeffrey Dever wrote:
>
>> There appears to be (at least two) locations for releases that need 
>> to be manually updated: one on jakarta.apache.org and one on 
>> www.apache.org.  Are we supposted to keep both of these manually 
>> updated?  Why are there two?  I have an account on deadalus, but 
>> where would I even go to modify what www.apache.org points to?
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/httpclient/
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-
>> commons/release/commons-httpclient/
>>
>> Jeff Dever
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: commons-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: commons-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: help - multiple location of commons releases

Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@AlmostHuman.com>.
hi jeff

the www.apache.org location is mirrored. see 
http://www.apache.org/dev/mirrors.html.

the policy i've used for the latest beanutils and digester releases is to 
force users to download from the mirrored site. if you do want to keep a 
release available from the old location, there isn't really any updating 
that needs to be done since it's just a case of dropping the release off 
in two places.

- robert

On Thursday, February 13, 2003, at 08:14 PM, Jeffrey Dever wrote:

> There appears to be (at least two) locations for releases that need to be 
> manually updated: one on jakarta.apache.org and one on www.apache.org.  
> Are we supposted to keep both of these manually updated?  Why are there 
> two?  I have an account on deadalus, but where would I even go to modify 
> what www.apache.org points to?
>
> http://www.apache.org/dist/jakarta/commons/httpclient/
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-
> commons/release/commons-httpclient/
>
> Jeff Dever
>
>
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