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Posted to dev@forrest.apache.org by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com> on 2002/11/09 13:27:45 UTC
Re: [News] Interesting article: Web Access Disabled by '90s
Design
Hmmm, I don't get the problem. The Forrest skin looks super with the
images turned off. Why would these images bother these people?
Check the site with Lynx or Opera with the images turned off (press g when
viewing the site).
If the images of the skin bother people, what about images in the content
itself? Would we all need to build sites without images?
Bert
At 12:44 9/11/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
>http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,662475,00.asp
>
>The gifs in our interface used to space and to add the rounded edges are
>bugging some of our users; what do you think we should do?
>
>1) remove them all
>2) provide a link similar to the pdf one for a more simple-layout version
>
>I go with 2)
>
>--
>Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [News] Interesting article: Web Access Disabled by '90s
Design
Posted by Bert Van Kets <be...@vankets.com>.
When I find the time I'll check it out.
As suggested here today, moving the images to CSS can be a solution.
Bert
At 15:42 9/11/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>Bert Van Kets wrote:
>>Hmmm, I don't get the problem. The Forrest skin looks super with the
>>images turned off. Why would these images bother these people?
>>Check the site with Lynx or Opera with the images turned off (press g
>>when viewing the site).
>>If the images of the skin bother people, what about images in the content
>>itself? Would we all need to build sites without images?
>
>Specifically, it has been said that the site is ugly when seen in the
>"links" text browser (not lynx, in that it's ok).
>
>This will prevent the skin to be used generally at Apache.
>
>If we can get round this it would be great :-)
>
>>Bert
>>
>>At 12:44 9/11/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>>>Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
>>>http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,662475,00.asp
>>>
>>>The gifs in our interface used to space and to add the rounded edges are
>>>bugging some of our users; what do you think we should do?
>>>
>>>1) remove them all
>>>2) provide a link similar to the pdf one for a more simple-layout version
>>>
>>>I go with 2)
>>>
>>>--
>>>Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
>>> - verba volant, scripta manent -
>>> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>--
>Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [News] Interesting article: Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
w3m :)
Looking at the forrest site, I notice there are a lot of alt="". I seem to
recall that the correct alt for such a thing is alt="*", but it's been a
while since I was reading about such stuff so I don't know if W3C's WAI
has changed the recommended rule. The "*" bit was from the Bobby
disability recommendations.
This does make it look worse in text-browsers though.
Hen
On Sat, 9 Nov 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> links sucks. lynx 4ever.
>
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> >
> > Bert Van Kets wrote:
> >
> >> Hmmm, I don't get the problem. The Forrest skin looks super with the
> >> images turned off. Why would these images bother these people?
> >> Check the site with Lynx or Opera with the images turned off (press g
> >> when viewing the site).
> >> If the images of the skin bother people, what about images in the
> >> content itself? Would we all need to build sites without images?
> >
> >
> > Specifically, it has been said that the site is ugly when seen in the
> > "links" text browser (not lynx, in that it's ok).
> >
> > This will prevent the skin to be used generally at Apache.
> >
> > If we can get round this it would be great :-)
> >
> >> Bert
> >>
> >>
> >> At 12:44 9/11/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >>
> >>> Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
> >>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,662475,00.asp
> >>>
> >>> The gifs in our interface used to space and to add the rounded edges
> >>> are
> >>> bugging some of our users; what do you think we should do?
> >>>
> >>> 1) remove them all
> >>> 2) provide a link similar to the pdf one for a more simple-layout
> >>> version
> >>>
> >>> I go with 2)
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> >>> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> >>> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
Re: [News] Interesting article: Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
links sucks. lynx 4ever.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Bert Van Kets wrote:
>
>> Hmmm, I don't get the problem. The Forrest skin looks super with the
>> images turned off. Why would these images bother these people?
>> Check the site with Lynx or Opera with the images turned off (press g
>> when viewing the site).
>> If the images of the skin bother people, what about images in the
>> content itself? Would we all need to build sites without images?
>
>
> Specifically, it has been said that the site is ugly when seen in the
> "links" text browser (not lynx, in that it's ok).
>
> This will prevent the skin to be used generally at Apache.
>
> If we can get round this it would be great :-)
>
>> Bert
>>
>>
>> At 12:44 9/11/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>>> Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
>>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,662475,00.asp
>>>
>>> The gifs in our interface used to space and to add the rounded edges
>>> are
>>> bugging some of our users; what do you think we should do?
>>>
>>> 1) remove them all
>>> 2) provide a link similar to the pdf one for a more simple-layout
>>> version
>>>
>>> I go with 2)
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
>>> - verba volant, scripta manent -
>>> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: [News] Interesting article: Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>>Bert Van Kets wrote:
>>
>>>Hmmm, I don't get the problem. The Forrest skin looks super with the
>>>images turned off. Why would these images bother these people?
>>>Check the site with Lynx or Opera with the images turned off (press g
>>>when viewing the site).
>>>If the images of the skin bother people, what about images in the
>>>content itself? Would we all need to build sites without images?
>>
>>Specifically, it has been said that the site is ugly when seen in the
>>"links" text browser (not lynx, in that it's ok).
>>
>>This will prevent the skin to be used generally at Apache.
>>
>>If we can get round this it would be great :-)
>
>
> Well, i have never used "links" (far prefer 'lynx'). So i
> just tried it on Linux. Using just the default options, i get
> a clear rendering of content.
Hmmm...
>I do not see what all the fuss
> is about.
Ok, here is part of the discussion on general@commons.apache.org that
triggered this.
It started with:
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Friday, October 25, 2002 11:31 AM +0200 Nicola Ken Barozzi
> <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm willing to set up a basic site with Forrest as I'm doing with
>> Incubator, so you can all start committing in XML format.
>
> From trying to browse the 'new' xml.apache.org with links and failing
> miserably, I am going to be against any Forrest-rendered commons site
> that has a 'skin' that does not render cleanly in text-only browsers.
> (If such a skin is made, I would strongly urge for that skin to
> replace the current xml.apache.org skin.)
A comparison with the avalon-tigris anf Forrest skins:
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Wednesday, November 6, 2002 11:37 PM -0800 Scott Sanders
> <sa...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Nov 06, 2002 at 11:26:12PM -0800, Scott Sanders wrote:
>>
>>> Here it is:
>>>
>>> http://cvs.apache.org/~sanders/
>>>
>> Also, I put up a version with the avalon-tigris skin by Peter.
>>
>> It is at http://cvs.apache.org/~sanders/avalon/
>
>
> The avalon-tigris skin is much nicer in text-only browsers, so +1 to
> that alternative. And, I would recommend that we commit both the
> forrest source and the generated html to CVS.
>
> We *must* have the source version-controlled as I'm not going to be
> modifying forrest-marked-up text myself - that contradicts forrest's
> original purpose.
>
> IMHO, 'forrestbot' or any other automated rebuild solution isn't
> acceptable. People suggested remote cronjobs which are
> insecure (you'd
> have to leave your SSH key unencrypted if its automated!) and that
> should be avoided at all costs. So, I do think that the generated
> source must also reside in CVS as well so that we can have a staging
> area for commons.apache.org and not need to run forrest (aka java) on
> daedalus.
>
> Oh, BTW, please run the site through validator.w3.org
> before deploying.
> It doesn't look like the avalon-tigris skin is too far off from
> compliance though. -- justin
After my check in lynx and my reply, about the fact that he prefers
avalon-tigris to Forrest skin:
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Thursday, November 7, 2002 9:19 AM +0100 Nicola Ken Barozzi
> <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Actually I prefer the Forrest version in Lynx.
>
> IMHO, links produces better rendering of documents than lynx.
> The most
> noticable difference is that links can handle columns correctly. links
> follows closer the intention of the site layout than lynx. Perhaps you
> have never tried links (http://links.browser.org/)? (elinks is the
> latest iteration of links code base.) (This is the second time a
> Forrest developer has confused lynx and links.)
>
> My problem with the Forrest skin is the abundance of spacer images. I
> believe they add no value, and for me, they make the site unusable (I
> display all links to images). The avalon-tigris skin does not suffer
> from the spacers.
At the end of the mail he also wrote:
> Note, I'm a *very* demanding user. So, please don't take any of my
> comments personally, but I expect a lot from my tools. -- justin
> I do still agree that lots of stuff should be moved into CSS.
IMHO it's just about moving spacer images and rounded edges to CSS and
passing the tests, I don't think it's necessary to redo it all, it would
just create more problems ATM.
BTW, also this has been written:
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Friday, October 25, 2002 11:31 AM +0200 Nicola Ken Barozzi
> <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm willing to set up a basic site with Forrest as I'm doing with
>> Incubator, so you can all start committing in XML format.
>>
>> Just one question: where would we put the xml sources, and where
>> the results?
>
>
> The xml sources obviously land in commons-site.
>
> Due to recent load problems on daedalus, I'm leery of running anything
> automated. So, I guess I'm leaning towards the site, httpd-site model
> with docs and xdocs. (xdocs == XML, docs == generated)
>
> Yeah, I'm not a big fan of storing generated files in CVS, but I'm
> fairly certain that we can't generate them on daedalus.
>
> And, I would also prefer that we take the approach of site and
> httpd-site and check in the necessary jars to get forrest to work. I
> don't want to have to also checkout forrest's CVS.
> I just want to check
> out commons-site and be done with it. -- justin
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [News] Interesting article: Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Bert Van Kets wrote:
> > Hmmm, I don't get the problem. The Forrest skin looks super with the
> > images turned off. Why would these images bother these people?
> > Check the site with Lynx or Opera with the images turned off (press g
> > when viewing the site).
> > If the images of the skin bother people, what about images in the
> > content itself? Would we all need to build sites without images?
>
> Specifically, it has been said that the site is ugly when seen in the
> "links" text browser (not lynx, in that it's ok).
>
> This will prevent the skin to be used generally at Apache.
>
> If we can get round this it would be great :-)
Well, i have never used "links" (far prefer 'lynx'). So i
just tried it on Linux. Using just the default options, i get
a clear rendering of content. I do not see what all the fuss
is about.
I do still agree that lots of stuff should be moved into CSS.
--David
Re: [News] Interesting article: Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Bert Van Kets wrote:
> Hmmm, I don't get the problem. The Forrest skin looks super with the
> images turned off. Why would these images bother these people?
> Check the site with Lynx or Opera with the images turned off (press g
> when viewing the site).
> If the images of the skin bother people, what about images in the
> content itself? Would we all need to build sites without images?
Specifically, it has been said that the site is ugly when seen in the
"links" text browser (not lynx, in that it's ok).
This will prevent the skin to be used generally at Apache.
If we can get round this it would be great :-)
> Bert
>
>
> At 12:44 9/11/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> Web Access Disabled by '90s Design
>> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,662475,00.asp
>>
>> The gifs in our interface used to space and to add the rounded edges are
>> bugging some of our users; what do you think we should do?
>>
>> 1) remove them all
>> 2) provide a link similar to the pdf one for a more simple-layout version
>>
>> I go with 2)
>>
>> --
>> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
>> - verba volant, scripta manent -
>> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------