2.0.12 version tag removed in Jira - by intention?

[Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>]

Hi,

I know I am not up to date with every discussion thread of the last couple
of months, but did we announce that 2.0.11 is the last 2.0.x GA? If not, I
hope everybody is ok with re-adding a 2.0.12 version tag in Jira, with
was, as a comment indicates, renamed to 2.1.2.

- Rene


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Re: 2.0.12 version tag removed in Jira - by intention?

[Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>]

On Feb 12, 2008 1:34 PM, Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anyway, it's nice to hear that there is *finally* a paid Struts
> developer (TED where are you???) :-)

Sadly, my new project is not Struts related. :(

I do expect to be heads-down for the first half of this year, but I'll
try to stay in touch.

-Ted.

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Re: 2.0.12 version tag removed in Jira - by intention?

[Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>]

On Feb 12, 2008 1:34 PM, Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, I did not mean this. I meant that customer (or better, users)
> may "ask" for features/bug fixing, but it will be fixed only if there
> is a developer willing to do the work.

Another way of looking at it is that *WE* are the customer. An Apache
project builds the product that we ourselves *want* to use  (and then
we actually use it).

Other people who use Apache projects are not the customer, but
prospective customers, who might someday want to contribute back to
the project (by helping out on the mailing list and issue tracker,
suggesting patches, testing builds, and so forth). People who use our
products for years and years, but never contribute back, are simply
freeloaders. (God bless them every one!)

Since it's an all-volunteer effort, talking about doing something that
someone else might like us to do (a prospective contributor or
freeloader), tends not to work in the long term, since there is no
incentive to actually do the work -- unless the feature also helps us
in our own work. It's easy to talk about such things, it's harder to
find the volunteer hours to actually do them. :)

A key problem with continuing to patch a branch is just that it's more
work, and we have very few people who are ready, willing, and able to
do any of the patch work right now. If someone has an itch to release
2.0.12, and wants to backport some of the patches, then great, have at
it. But, please, only if you fully intend to follow through and create
a new 2.0.12 build for the rest of us to test.

We have a large backlog of patches. Insisting that everyone apply and
test all of these patches against the branch, and making sure it
builds (Is Bamboo building the branch?), is twice as much work. Right
now we can even get anyone to do 1x the work!.

AFAIK, if a security issue came up with 2.0.11, we could make a
surgical fix and release that as 2.0.12. It's as GA now as it was when
released it. But, if we start applying miscellaneous patches, then
2.0.12 would not be GA ready anymore, and if we had to do an
immediate, surgical release, we'd have to roll a 2.0.11.1 instead.

HTH, Ted.

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Re: 2.0.12 version tag removed in Jira - by intention?

[Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com>]

2008/2/12, Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>:
> Antonio Petrelli schrieb:
> > 2008/2/12, Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>:
> I'm not sure if I get you right here - are commercial efforts evil? Are
> we not telling commercial as well as non-commercial users that Struts2
> let's you build mature application? Isn't a commercial company sometimes
> good for paying some time of all day bug fixing? Don't we believe that
> someone using Struts2 in real life applications is good for finding real
> life bugs a framework developer would sometimes never realise? I am very
> happy to be able to use S2 sometimes in my day jobs, and when I do I
> still learn new aspects all the time. Some of this aspects may be useful
> for others, too...

Sorry, I did not mean this. I meant that customer (or better, users)
may "ask" for features/bug fixing, but it will be fixed only if there
is a developer willing to do the work.
Anyway, it's nice to hear that there is *finally* a paid Struts
developer (TED where are you???) :-)

> > So, as long as there is a community interest (i.e. active developers
> > and contributors) in letting the 2.0.x branch to "survive", I agree
> > that you can commit in the branch.
> >
>
> As long someone volunteers support issues for both trees, and volunteers
> to patch for both trees, I think there _is_ community interest, given
> you regard him as a community member. Basically, this is to volunteer to
> do a little bit more work than just to patch, test and commit to one branch.

But the release process must be voted by the PMC members. If there is
not a large consensus, your effort of merging bug fixes will be
somewhat void. This does not mean that I will vote against it ;-)

> 2.0.x is still the only S2 GA branch. For that reason, I find it quite
> unusual to close it down before a 2.1.x is out.

+1. In fact the switch seems too fast to me. Probably we should wait
until Ted comes back, to answer the reason for switching so fast.

> And again, being able to tag a fix for a 2.0.12 does not mean we have to
> roll a out a 2.0.12. But in case there is someone standing up to do so,
> this can help him.

I disagree, fixing in the 2.0.x means that we *hope* to tag a release
in that branch.

Finally, Rene, you cannot rename the 2.1.2 back to 2.0.12, but, IMO,
you could create a new 2.0.12 version and add the "fix for" tag to the
candidate issues in JIRA, to help us understand how much work is
needed.
And, if you are willing to merge the fixes, you are free to do it,
since it won't harm anyone :-)

Ciao
Antonio

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Re: 2.0.12 version tag removed in Jira - by intention?

[Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>]

Antonio Petrelli schrieb:
> 2008/2/12, Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>:
>> Even if we would never opt for rolling out a 2.0.12, it still makes sense
>> to mark patches done to the 2.0.x code tree in Jira. For example, as long
>> as I have customers working on 2.0.x, I will commit on both the 2.1 and
>> 2.0 branch if I see a sense in it.
> 
> Struts (as the other Apache projects) is not customer-driven, but
> community driven.

I'm not sure if I get you right here - are commercial efforts evil? Are
we not telling commercial as well as non-commercial users that Struts2
let's you build mature application? Isn't a commercial company sometimes
good for paying some time of all day bug fixing? Don't we believe that
someone using Struts2 in real life applications is good for finding real
life bugs a framework developer would sometimes never realise? I am very
happy to be able to use S2 sometimes in my day jobs, and when I do I
still learn new aspects all the time. Some of this aspects may be useful
for others, too...

> So, as long as there is a community interest (i.e. active developers
> and contributors) in letting the 2.0.x branch to "survive", I agree
> that you can commit in the branch.
> 

As long someone volunteers support issues for both trees, and volunteers
to patch for both trees, I think there _is_ community interest, given
you regard him as a community member. Basically, this is to volunteer to
do a little bit more work than just to patch, test and commit to one branch.

>> Tagging them as fixed in both branches'
>> next unreleased version is the only way to keep track then about the
>> actual changes made between two 2.0 versions - just in case the would be
>> another one.
> 
> IMHO tagging as fixed in two branches should be done only in
> exceptional cases (for example, security issues).
> 

2.0.x is still the only S2 GA branch. For that reason, I find it quite
unusual to close it down before a 2.1.x is out. And, again, 2.1.x is
definitely not a drop in replacement, as I for myself had to realize for
a bigger project - the upgrade was cancelled then. WebWork gives a good
impression on how many minor releases a "dead" project or project tree
can still have.
And again, being able to tag a fix for a 2.0.12 does not mean we have to
roll a out a 2.0.12. But in case there is someone standing up to do so,
this can help him.


>> and some security issues might be raised requiring
>> us to roll out a GA fix
> 
> In this case, will roll a 2.0.11.1 version, as discussed earlier:
> http://cwiki.apache.org/WW/creating-and-signing-a-distribution.html#CreatingandSigningaDistribution-FastTrackinganImportantSecurityRelease
> 
> Ciao
> Antonio
> 
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Re: 2.0.12 version tag removed in Jira - by intention?

[Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com>]

2008/2/12, Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>:
> Even if we would never opt for rolling out a 2.0.12, it still makes sense
> to mark patches done to the 2.0.x code tree in Jira. For example, as long
> as I have customers working on 2.0.x, I will commit on both the 2.1 and
> 2.0 branch if I see a sense in it.

Struts (as the other Apache projects) is not customer-driven, but
community driven.
So, as long as there is a community interest (i.e. active developers
and contributors) in letting the 2.0.x branch to "survive", I agree
that you can commit in the branch.

> Tagging them as fixed in both branches'
> next unreleased version is the only way to keep track then about the
> actual changes made between two 2.0 versions - just in case the would be
> another one.

IMHO tagging as fixed in two branches should be done only in
exceptional cases (for example, security issues).

> and some security issues might be raised requiring
> us to roll out a GA fix

In this case, will roll a 2.0.11.1 version, as discussed earlier:
http://cwiki.apache.org/WW/creating-and-signing-a-distribution.html#CreatingandSigningaDistribution-FastTrackinganImportantSecurityRelease

Ciao
Antonio

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Re: 2.0.12 version tag removed in Jira - by intention?

[Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>]

Am Di, 12.02.2008, 17:09, schrieb Antonio Petrelli:
> 2008/2/12, Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>:
>
>> If not, I
>> hope everybody is ok with re-adding a 2.0.12 version tag in Jira, with
>> was, as a comment indicates, renamed to 2.1.2.
>
>
>
> Though we did not announce it, I don't think that a 2.0.12 version will
> ever
> be released. Ted (Husted) moved open issues to the 2.1.x versions,
> depending
> on their criticity.
>
> Antonio
>

Even if we would never opt for rolling out a 2.0.12, it still makes sense
to mark patches done to the 2.0.x code tree in Jira. For example, as long
as I have customers working on 2.0.x, I will commit on both the 2.1 and
2.0 branch if I see a sense in it. Tagging them as fixed in both branches'
next unreleased version is the only way to keep track then about the
actual changes made between two 2.0 versions - just in case the would be
another one.
I know that the question of supporting 2.0 is most of all a question of
people volunteering to support, and I am not sure if I could stand up here
to commit myself doing this. But since moving apps from 2.0 to 2.1 is not
a drop in replacement, and some security issues might be raised requiring
us to roll out a GA fix, there is still a good enough chance for another
2.0 getting rolled out.

- Rene


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Re: 2.0.12 version tag removed in Jira - by intention?

[Antonio Petrelli <an...@gmail.com>]

2008/2/12, Rene Gielen <rg...@apache.org>:

> If not, I
> hope everybody is ok with re-adding a 2.0.12 version tag in Jira, with
> was, as a comment indicates, renamed to 2.1.2.



Though we did not announce it, I don't think that a 2.0.12 version will ever
be released. Ted (Husted) moved open issues to the 2.1.x versions, depending
on their criticity.

Antonio