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Posted to user@lenya.apache.org by Jann Forrer <ja...@id.unizh.ch> on 2004/11/09 10:44:49 UTC
User Feedback
Hi all
For about two months we offer the lenya CMS as a service to university
departements. Up to now there are about 20 publications running on our
server. The people who are working with the CMS have very different
knowledge in HTML, XHMTL (i.e from the expert to the complete newbie).
We now get "real world" feedback and I would like to post some of it
here. The most important topic (and also the most complained of) is the
possibility to edit the content (we offer BXE and of course the two form
editors). The main feedbacks concerning editors are:
- It is not possible to create a new site using only the WYSIWYG editor
(BXE). All users need the three editors to create new pages. Therefore
you need some XHTML knowledge to make a new site.
- BXE needs getting used to ...
- You need good XHTML knowledge to use the one form editor.
Nevertheless the overall feedback concerning the lenya CMS is positiv but
for the operation of is as we did, it seems absolutely necessary to
improve the editing possibilites. The acceptance of the system very much
depend on that.
Are there some ideas (or even solutions) around here how to improve the
editing capabilities? Shall we try to use kupu too? What about "offline"
editing using Open-Office or some other tools?
I know there were quite a few discussion about editors on the list but I
did not catch the main idea concerning editors in lenya yet.
Jann
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jann Forrer
Informatikdienste
Universität Zürich
Winterthurerstr. 190
CH-8057 Zuerich
oooO mail: jann.forrer@id.unizh.ch
( ) phone: +41 1 63 56772
\ ( fax: +41 1 63 54505
\_) http://www.id.unizh.ch
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Re: User Feedback
Posted by Roger Stupf <ro...@unicom.unizh.ch>.
Am 09.11.2004 um 17:30 schrieb Christian Stocker:
>
>
> On 9.11.2004 16:50 Uhr, Roger Stupf wrote:
>>>> I think one can split the problem into two subproblems:
>>>>
>>>> 1) The WYSIWYG(/Can) Editing itself of arbitrary XML
>>>> 2) The integration into the CMS
>>>> - "Browser" based
>>>> - Desktop based
>>>>
>>>
>>> According to our experience, we should give the desktop based
>>> approach a try ...
>> We can give the desktop based approach a try, but I prefer to pursuit
>> the browser-based way. We invested a lot (money and time) in this
>> way. I think of two ways:
>> - support the improvement of BXE. It's the most advanced
>> WYSIWYG-browser-based XML editor available for lenya.
>> - support the "tolerant mode" Kupu ("tolerant mode" means that Kupu
>> does not, as it used to do up to now- strip the non-XHTML tags. This
>> makes it possible for us to use it for our purpose since our schema
>> ist mostly XHTML...). Thanks to the support of Kit Blake and the work
>> of Rolf the new version leaves the non-XHTML-tags alone and may in
>> future even be able to edit them (okay, maybe only a wish ;-))
>> I think the main problem of the web-based WYSIWYG editors (as far as
>> I know them) is the lack of developers communities. Most of the time
>> it's a one- or two-people core developers community... So the logical
>> thing to do would be to combine the communities and work together on
>> THE ultimate editor. I think the two Zurich universities made some
>> steps in this directions... but what does the community think?
>
> You mean merging the 2 projects? I'm not sure, if that works. Kupu and
> BXE are just too different behind the scene, it would basically mean,
> one would give up and join the other project and then try to implement
> its features.. Which would be a hard and long job. We already share
> code (like the Drawers), but IMHO the approach and philosphy of the 2
> editors is just too different. Kupu is "just" an XHTML Editor and does
> that job really well and if you need nothing else but XHTML (with some
> arbitrary XML elements in between), it's the perfect tool.
> If you on the other hand have some arbitrary XML, not even remotely
> remembering XHTML, want that somehow validated or depend on a strict
> XHTML schema, not allowing everything or mix XML and XHTML, then BXE
> is the tool for you. Only for editing XHTML, BXE is overkill, IMHO.
>
> If the lenya community wants to discuss that further, you should
> switch this discussion to editor@oscom.org.
>
> chregu
Hi Chregu
As a member of the Lenya User Community I follow your suggestion since
we (the University of Zurich using Lenya) have a vital interest in
pursueing the editor development, since our users (faculty and
administrative staff) have a lot of difficulties with the web based
editors...
I therefore allow myself to switch the disussion to editors@oscom.org
(note that the mail adress ist editors with "s")
Any comments?
Thanks and Aloha
Roger
----------------------------------------
Universität Zürich
unicommunication
Roger Stupf
Leiter Abteilung Online
Gloriastrasse 18a
8006 Zürich
+41 1 634 44 17
roger.stupf@unicom.unizh.ch
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Re: User Feedback
Posted by Christian Stocker <ch...@bitflux.ch>.
On 9.11.2004 16:50 Uhr, Roger Stupf wrote:
>
>>> I think one can split the problem into two subproblems:
>>>
>>> 1) The WYSIWYG(/Can) Editing itself of arbitrary XML
>>> 2) The integration into the CMS
>>> - "Browser" based
>>> - Desktop based
>>>
>>
>> According to our experience, we should give the desktop based
>> approach a try ...
>
>
> We can give the desktop based approach a try, but I prefer to pursuit
> the browser-based way. We invested a lot (money and time) in this way. I
> think of two ways:
> - support the improvement of BXE. It's the most advanced
> WYSIWYG-browser-based XML editor available for lenya.
> - support the "tolerant mode" Kupu ("tolerant mode" means that Kupu does
> not, as it used to do up to now- strip the non-XHTML tags. This makes it
> possible for us to use it for our purpose since our schema ist mostly
> XHTML...). Thanks to the support of Kit Blake and the work of Rolf the
> new version leaves the non-XHTML-tags alone and may in future even be
> able to edit them (okay, maybe only a wish ;-))
>
> I think the main problem of the web-based WYSIWYG editors (as far as I
> know them) is the lack of developers communities. Most of the time it's
> a one- or two-people core developers community... So the logical thing
> to do would be to combine the communities and work together on THE
> ultimate editor. I think the two Zurich universities made some steps in
> this directions... but what does the community think?
You mean merging the 2 projects? I'm not sure, if that works. Kupu and
BXE are just too different behind the scene, it would basically mean,
one would give up and join the other project and then try to implement
its features.. Which would be a hard and long job. We already share code
(like the Drawers), but IMHO the approach and philosphy of the 2 editors
is just too different. Kupu is "just" an XHTML Editor and does that job
really well and if you need nothing else but XHTML (with some arbitrary
XML elements in between), it's the perfect tool.
If you on the other hand have some arbitrary XML, not even remotely
remembering XHTML, want that somehow validated or depend on a strict
XHTML schema, not allowing everything or mix XML and XHTML, then BXE is
the tool for you. Only for editing XHTML, BXE is overkill, IMHO.
If the lenya community wants to discuss that further, you should switch
this discussion to editor@oscom.org.
chregu
>
> Thanks for comments!
> Aloha,
> Roger
>
> ----------------------------------------
> Universität Zürich
> unicommunication
> Roger Stupf
> Leiter Abteilung Online
> Gloriastrasse 18a
> 8006 Zürich
> +41 1 634 44 17
> roger.stupf@unicom.unizh.ch
> ----------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@lenya.apache.org
> Apache Lenya Project http://lenya.apache.org
--
christian stocker | Bitflux GmbH | schoeneggstrasse 5 | ch-8004 zurich
phone +41 1 240 56 70 | mobile +41 76 561 88 60 | fax +41 1 240 56 71
http://www.bitflux.ch | chregu@bitflux.ch | gnupg-keyid 0x5CE1DECB
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Re: User Feedback
Posted by Roger Stupf <ro...@unicom.unizh.ch>.
>> I think one can split the problem into two subproblems:
>>
>> 1) The WYSIWYG(/Can) Editing itself of arbitrary XML
>> 2) The integration into the CMS
>> - "Browser" based
>> - Desktop based
>>
>
> According to our experience, we should give the desktop based
> approach a try ...
We can give the desktop based approach a try, but I prefer to pursuit
the browser-based way. We invested a lot (money and time) in this way.
I think of two ways:
- support the improvement of BXE. It's the most advanced
WYSIWYG-browser-based XML editor available for lenya.
- support the "tolerant mode" Kupu ("tolerant mode" means that Kupu
does not, as it used to do up to now- strip the non-XHTML tags. This
makes it possible for us to use it for our purpose since our schema ist
mostly XHTML...). Thanks to the support of Kit Blake and the work of
Rolf the new version leaves the non-XHTML-tags alone and may in future
even be able to edit them (okay, maybe only a wish ;-))
I think the main problem of the web-based WYSIWYG editors (as far as I
know them) is the lack of developers communities. Most of the time it's
a one- or two-people core developers community... So the logical thing
to do would be to combine the communities and work together on THE
ultimate editor. I think the two Zurich universities made some steps in
this directions... but what does the community think?
Thanks for comments!
Aloha,
Roger
----------------------------------------
Universität Zürich
unicommunication
Roger Stupf
Leiter Abteilung Online
Gloriastrasse 18a
8006 Zürich
+41 1 634 44 17
roger.stupf@unicom.unizh.ch
----------------------------------------
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Re: User Feedback
Posted by "Gregor J. Rothfuss" <gr...@apache.org>.
Jann Forrer wrote:
> As far as I know there were different reasons. Here some reasons:
> - BXE seems to have strange behavior especially if you work fast, it even
> crashes sometimes ....
> - if you work for sometime without saving the changes are lost
> - if you know XHTML you are faster with the one fore editor ....
> - Some tags can not be inserted
> - ....
it seems to me that trying to find these remaining problems (and fixing
them) would be much easier than going off into new directions. for
instance, chregu is currently working on multi-paragraph insert from the
clipboard. to really find these problems, you'll likely have to observe
user behaviour.
--
Gregor J. Rothfuss
COO, Wyona Content Management Solutions http://wyona.com
Apache Lenya http://lenya.apache.org
gregor.rothfuss@wyona.com gregor@apache.org
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Re: User Feedback
Posted by Jann Forrer <ja...@id.unizh.ch>.
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Michael Wechner wrote:
> Jann Forrer wrote:
>
> >
> >- It is not possible to create a new site using only the WYSIWYG editor
> > (BXE). All users need the three editors to create new pages. Therefore
> > you need some XHTML knowledge to make a new site.
> >
> >
>
> why exactly do people need the three editors? Is it because of the Schema
> or the lack of functionality within the editors? Or any other reason?
>
As far as I know there were different reasons. Here some reasons:
- BXE seems to have strange behavior especially if you work fast, it even
crashes sometimes ....
- if you work for sometime without saving the changes are lost
- if you know XHTML you are faster with the one fore editor ....
- Some tags can not be inserted
- ....
Note that there are also a lot of positive feedbacks concerning BXE.
And I think that BXE is certainly one of the best WYSIWYG XML-editors
on top of a broswer.
But on ther other hand, it is a fact that our user need all three editors
to build their site.
[ ... ]
>
> I guess people are expecting Word behaviour or where does BXE difference
> in particular to other "common" editors?
>
Probably not so much word but are used to some other HTML editors as e.g.
GoLIve etc. These editors are certainly faster, more stable and have more
features than BXE and the users are disapointed if they work with BXE for
the first time. The other form editors does not look WYSIWYG and the
expectations are therefore much lower ;-)
BTW, is WYSIWYG-editing on top of a browser not limited anyway?
>
> improve the editors, but I guess this is nothing new ;-)
>
I agree but I was remind of that yesterday when we had a kind of
feedback meeting with our CMS-users.
> But please see my RT I will send in a minute ...
>
Ok, I am looking forward .....
>
> I think one can split the problem into two subproblems:
>
> 1) The WYSIWYG(/Can) Editing itself of arbitrary XML
> 2) The integration into the CMS
> - "Browser" based
> - Desktop based
>
According to our experience, we should give the desktop based
approach a try ...
Jann
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Re: User Feedback
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.com>.
Jann Forrer wrote:
>
>- It is not possible to create a new site using only the WYSIWYG editor
> (BXE). All users need the three editors to create new pages. Therefore
> you need some XHTML knowledge to make a new site.
>
>
why exactly do people need the three editors? Is it because of the Schema
or the lack of functionality within the editors? Or any other reason?
>- BXE needs getting used to ...
>
>
I guess people are expecting Word behaviour or where does BXE difference
in particular to other "common" editors?
>- You need good XHTML knowledge to use the one form editor.
>
>
>Are there some ideas (or even solutions) around here how to improve the
>editing capabilities?
>
improve the editors, but I guess this is nothing new ;-)
But please see my RT I will send in a minute ...
> Shall we try to use kupu too?
>
Kupu is XTHML only. If your Schema is XHTML then fine, else you can't
use Kupu only
>What about "offline"
>editing using Open-Office or some other tools?
>
>
this is certainly an option and WebDAV in combination with Cocoon would
certainly allow this, but it seems to me that it's not really sufficient
and a better desktop integration of the CMS would be needed in this case
>I know there were quite a few discussion about editors on the list but I
>did not catch the main idea concerning editors in lenya yet.
>
>
well, there is no perfect solution yet and I wouldn't know of anyone who
has actually solved the problem, especially since there doesn't seem to
be a "one size fits all" solution anyway. So Lenya is offering
possibilities for various situations and tries to be open and flexible
re new possibilities. Because as you are saying "Editing" is a key for
Content Management we need to improve.
I think one can split the problem into two subproblems:
1) The WYSIWYG(/Can) Editing itself of arbitrary XML
2) The integration into the CMS
- "Browser" based
- Desktop based
I will write a RT (random thought) about (1) in a minute or two ;-) ...
Michi
>Jann
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Jann Forrer
>Informatikdienste
>Universität Zürich
>Winterthurerstr. 190
>CH-8057 Zuerich
>
>oooO mail: jann.forrer@id.unizh.ch
>( ) phone: +41 1 63 56772
> \ ( fax: +41 1 63 54505
> \_) http://www.id.unizh.ch
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@lenya.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@lenya.apache.org
>Apache Lenya Project http://lenya.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Inc. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
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