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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org> on 2010/01/11 09:28:34 UTC
Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Hi,
In the ESME podling that I'm co-mentoring, we have a committer who
refuses to remove copyright notices from source code that he committed
to the project after signing an iCLA.
See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47 (starting from David
Pollak's comment 09/Jul/09 08:39 PM) and the discussion on the ESME
mailing list at http://markmail.org/message/czjiphudb4jz5yxl
This could be seen as a matter of policy, not a legal issue:
http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html ("Source File Headers for
Code Developed at the ASF") clearly indicates that such headers must
be removed by the committer.
But how do we solve that issue, considering said committer refuses to
do it? I see a few options, below.
I have invited David to subscribe here to present his position
directly, not sure if he'll do that.
Suggested options:
1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
(http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
action by the copyright owner?
2) Keep the notices and add alongside them another notice along the
lines of "the above notice only applies to parts of this source file"
and point to an explanation page. Pragmatic solution, doesn't comply
with our policy but if phrased well could be workable IMHO.
3) Remove from our subversion repository all code where the committer
refuses to remove those copyright notices, considering that their
contributions are not compatible with ASF policies. Note that in ESME
case this is a big chunk of the core code, not just a few things here
and there, so that would have a huge impact on the podling.
4) Convince the committer to remove the notices - doesn't seem
possible as he's strongly opposed to that, and in the meantime
announced his resignation from ESME and from the ASF.
Thanks for any insights and/or links to similar cases.
-Bertrand (ESME podling mentor)
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
Hi Daniel,
On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:31 AM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
>>> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
>>> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
>>> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
>>> modifications?
>>
>> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
>> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
>> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
>> ownership of their contributions.
>
> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>
> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then,
> in
> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it
> and not
> the ASF.
To be clear, the owner of the code retains all copyrights. The
committer might or might not be the copyright owner (especially if the
work is done under contract covered by "work for hire" or other
concepts). That's one reason for the CCLA, to make sure that companies
explicitly grant a license to Apache for code that is committed by
employees .
> Thus, why does our NOTICE file have:
>
> Copyright 2006-2010 The Apache Software Foundation
>
> Is that for the "collective work" (aka: the distribution)?
Yes.
> Even that would
> be built and such on my machine and signed with my personal keys and
> such.
When the release manager builds an Apache release, there's no IP
contributed by the release manager that needs to be acknowledged with
a notice. Apache holds the copyright to the collective work.
Craig
>
> Most just to satisfy my own curiosity. Might as well try and learn
> something
> new today. :-)
>
> --
> Daniel Kulp
> dkulp@apache.org
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Ceki,
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 7:42 PM, Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch> wrote:
> ...Adding a copyright notice for "WorldWide Conferencing" or any other
> contributor in ASF's SVN is an awful idea. It goes against an existing
> procedure which has the merit of being both perfectly simple and very
> fair. Having the ASF copyright on code hosted on ASF's SVN makes a
> clear statement. This code is owned by the ASF, although it may be
> co-owned....
Agree about that. The problem with ESME is that this code is existing,
it's a major part of the ESME core, and the committer refuses to
remove it.
So I guess in this case we'll find a pragmatic solution as has been
suggested in this thread, but I totally agree that this should be an
exception, nothing more.
-Bertrand
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
Adding a copyright notice for "WorldWide Conferencing" or any other
contributor in ASF's SVN is an awful idea. It goes against an existing
procedure which has the merit of being both perfectly simple and very
fair. Having the ASF copyright on code hosted on ASF's SVN makes a
clear statement. This code is owned by the ASF, although it may be
co-owned.
If a contributor wishes to publish software they have written outside
the ASF they can do so. The ICLA allows this.
It is unfortunate that David has decided to resign from his ASF
activities but that is his decision. He misunderstood the basic
functioning of the ASF and the way contributions are handled. Nothing
the ASF could have done, except explaining ASF's policy *before* he
started contributing could have influenced the outcome.
Author tags raise a different question having to do with attribution
and much less with copyright. I wish the current policy for removing
author tags would be reverted because well, I think it sucks. Anyway,
I won't develop any arguments as to why because it's a different
question than the one raised by Bertrand.
On 11/01/2010 7:00 PM, Richard Hirsch wrote:
> What additional obligations will arise for users of ESME because
> copyright notices are contained in either source code or the NOTICE
> file? Especially if they distributed ESME source code rather than a
> binary form?
>
> D.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Ceki Gülcü<ce...@qos.ch> wrote:
>> On 11/01/2010 5:31 PM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>>>>
>>>>> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
>>>>> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
>>>>> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
>>>>> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
>>>>> modifications?
>>>>
>>>> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
>>>> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
>>>> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
>>>> ownership of their contributions.
>>>
>>> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>>>
>>> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
>>> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and
>>> not
>>> the ASF.
>>
>> Contrary to physical property, software is immaterial. When you lend
>> your car to a friend for a week, you can no longer drive it during
>> that week because the vehicle is inaccessible. With software, when
>> your grant sub-licensing rights to a friend on some software you have
>> written, e.g. the ASF, both you and the ASF have now copyright on the
>> said software. ASF's rights to do not diminish your rights and vice
>> versa.
>>
>> So, the contents of the svn is copyrighted by thge ASF even if you as
>> a contributor hold copyright for the parts you have developed and
>> could create your own distribution (based on your work) under a
>> different license and your copyright. Logback is a concrete example
>> thereof.
>>
>> More generally, the written word like software is immaterial. Most
>> editors will have the author to assign copyright to the
>> editor. However, if you insist and after some negotiation, the editor
>> might agree for you to retain copyright for your work and keep a
>> parallel copyright (for the editor). But I am digressing...
>>
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>>
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
What additional obligations will arise for users of ESME because
copyright notices are contained in either source code or the NOTICE
file? Especially if they distributed ESME source code rather than a
binary form?
D.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch> wrote:
> On 11/01/2010 5:31 PM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
>>
>> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>>>
>>>> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
>>>> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
>>>> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
>>>> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
>>>> modifications?
>>>
>>> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
>>> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
>>> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
>>> ownership of their contributions.
>>
>> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>>
>> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
>> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and
>> not
>> the ASF.
>
> Contrary to physical property, software is immaterial. When you lend
> your car to a friend for a week, you can no longer drive it during
> that week because the vehicle is inaccessible. With software, when
> your grant sub-licensing rights to a friend on some software you have
> written, e.g. the ASF, both you and the ASF have now copyright on the
> said software. ASF's rights to do not diminish your rights and vice
> versa.
>
> So, the contents of the svn is copyrighted by thge ASF even if you as
> a contributor hold copyright for the parts you have developed and
> could create your own distribution (based on your work) under a
> different license and your copyright. Logback is a concrete example
> thereof.
>
> More generally, the written word like software is immaterial. Most
> editors will have the author to assign copyright to the
> editor. However, if you insist and after some negotiation, the editor
> might agree for you to retain copyright for your work and keep a
> parallel copyright (for the editor). But I am digressing...
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
On 11/01/2010 5:31 PM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
>>> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
>>> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
>>> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
>>> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
>>> modifications?
>>
>> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
>> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
>> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
>> ownership of their contributions.
>
> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>
> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and not
> the ASF.
Contrary to physical property, software is immaterial. When you lend
your car to a friend for a week, you can no longer drive it during
that week because the vehicle is inaccessible. With software, when
your grant sub-licensing rights to a friend on some software you have
written, e.g. the ASF, both you and the ASF have now copyright on the
said software. ASF's rights to do not diminish your rights and vice
versa.
So, the contents of the svn is copyrighted by thge ASF even if you as
a contributor hold copyright for the parts you have developed and
could create your own distribution (based on your work) under a
different license and your copyright. Logback is a concrete example
thereof.
More generally, the written word like software is immaterial. Most
editors will have the author to assign copyright to the
editor. However, if you insist and after some negotiation, the editor
might agree for you to retain copyright for your work and keep a
parallel copyright (for the editor). But I am digressing...
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 1:59:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> Joe Schaefer wrote:
> > It is trivial to get "who-contributed-what" information from
> > subversion.
>
> That is great. But I note that "who contributed" isn't necessarily the same
> as "who claimed ownership of the copyright."
To a downstream user who complies with the Apache license, what difference does
it make? It only matters to someone who intends to violate the license and
rely on some other agreement with the copyright owner. I simply could care
less about those cases as they don't further the foundation's mission in the
least. We distribute icla and ccla information to anyone who wants it, that
should be enough for anyone who is familiar with how subversion works.
>
> > The only thing collecting that additional information in the NOTICE file
> > would provide is more redundant overhead for downstream repackagers to
> > carry along with our releases.
>
> And that hurts the downstream repackagers in what ways? We don't charge per
> byte.
You must be new to open source ;-). Downstream repackagers and people producing
derivative works do not want to pass along third-party NOTICES to their consumers,
as once things are in our NOTICE file they cannot be removed. The ASF offers
clean and simple licensing terms which is not intended to be accompanied by a
laundry list of explicit IP claims.
> > If that means more work for third party attorneys come
> > enforcement time, them's the breaks.
>
> I suppose that, as a paid attorney, I shouldn't worry about more work. As a
> potential client, you should be.
Not if I expect the ASF to make enforcement decisions ;-)
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RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
Joe Schaefer wrote:
> It is trivial to get "who-contributed-what" information from
> subversion.
That is great. But I note that "who contributed" isn't necessarily the same
as "who claimed ownership of the copyright."
> The only thing collecting that additional information in the NOTICE file
> would provide is more redundant overhead for downstream repackagers to
> carry along with our releases.
And that hurts the downstream repackagers in what ways? We don't charge per
byte.
> If that means more work for third party attorneys come
> enforcement time, them's the breaks.
I suppose that, as a paid attorney, I shouldn't worry about more work. As a
potential client, you should be.
/Larry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe_schaefer@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:18 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
> (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>
> > From: Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>
> > To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> > Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 12:03:38 PM
> > Subject: RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
> (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> > For that reason, our contributors needn't worry about their
> copyrights being
> > affected because ASF removes their copyright notices. However, I have
> said
> > previously, as my personal opinion, that our policy ought to be to
> retain
> > contributors' copyright notices somewhere obvious (in the NOTICE
> file, or leave
> > them where you found them?), if only to provide as much historical
> information
> > as possible to determine the original provenance of the code.
>
> It is trivial to get "who-contributed-what" information from
> subversion. The
> only thing collecting that additional information in the NOTICE file
> would provide
> is more redundant overhead for downstream repackagers to carry along
> with our
> releases. The ASF discourages people from putting any "ownership"
> marks on our
> source code as a means of facilitating the types of social balances
> we'd like our
> communities to maintain. If that means more work for third party
> attorneys come
> enforcement time, them's the breaks.
>
>
>
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 12:03:38 PM
> Subject: RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
> For that reason, our contributors needn't worry about their copyrights being
> affected because ASF removes their copyright notices. However, I have said
> previously, as my personal opinion, that our policy ought to be to retain
> contributors' copyright notices somewhere obvious (in the NOTICE file, or leave
> them where you found them?), if only to provide as much historical information
> as possible to determine the original provenance of the code.
It is trivial to get "who-contributed-what" information from subversion. The
only thing collecting that additional information in the NOTICE file would provide
is more redundant overhead for downstream repackagers to carry along with our
releases. The ASF discourages people from putting any "ownership" marks on our
source code as a means of facilitating the types of social balances we'd like our
communities to maintain. If that means more work for third party attorneys come
enforcement time, them's the breaks.
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@SUN.com>.
Hi Larry,
On Jan 11, 2010, at 9:03 AM, Lawrence Rosen wrote:
> For that reason, our contributors needn't worry about their
> copyrights being affected because ASF removes their copyright notices.
We don't *remove* copyright notices from the project. We *move* them
to the NOTICE or LICENSE file depending (please don't fuss over where
they move; that's a separate discussion).
> However, I have said previously, as my personal opinion, that our
> policy ought to be to retain contributors' copyright notices
> somewhere obvious (in the NOTICE file, or leave them where you found
> them?), if only to provide as much historical information as
> possible to determine the original provenance of the code.
This is our current policy.
Craig
Craig L Russell
Assistant Secretary, Apache Software Foundation
Chair, OpenJPA PMC
clr@apache.org http://db.apache.org/jdo
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RE: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Lawrence Rosen <lr...@rosenlaw.com>.
Daniel Kulp asked:
> Thus, why does our NOTICE file have:
>
> Copyright 2006-2010 The Apache Software Foundation
See 17 USC 404(a):
A separate contribution to a collective work may bear its own notice of
copyright, as provided by sections 401 through 403 [17 USC § §401-403].
However, a single notice applicable to the collective work as a whole
is sufficient to invoke the provisions of section 401(d) or 402(d),
as applicable with respect to the separate contributions it contains
(not including advertisements inserted on behalf of persons other than
the owner of copyright in the collective work), regardless of the
ownership of copyright in the contributions and whether or not they
have been previously published.
Section 401(d) and 402(d) provide that copyright notices have evidentiary weight. In other words, the presence of a notice prevents someone from claiming that his/her infringement was innocent (i.e., "I didn't know I was infringing"). Copyright notices aren't actually required but they help in this way.
17 USC 405(c) also provides:
Removal of notice. Protection under this title is not affected by the
removal, destruction, or obliteration of the notice, without the
authorization of the copyright owner, from any publicly distributed
copies or phonorecords.
For that reason, our contributors needn't worry about their copyrights being affected because ASF removes their copyright notices. However, I have said previously, as my personal opinion, that our policy ought to be to retain contributors' copyright notices somewhere obvious (in the NOTICE file, or leave them where you found them?), if only to provide as much historical information as possible to determine the original provenance of the code.
> Most just to satisfy my own curiosity. Might as well try and learn
> something new today. :-)
I hope you did. :-)
/Larry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Kulp [mailto:dkulp@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:32 AM
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
> (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> > On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
> > > Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
> > > understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
> > > assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
> > > least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
> > > modifications?
> >
> > No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
> > Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
> > copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
> > ownership of their contributions.
>
> On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
>
> If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
> theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and
> not
> the ASF. Thus, why does our NOTICE file have:
>
> Copyright 2006-2010 The Apache Software Foundation
>
> Is that for the "collective work" (aka: the distribution)? Even that
> would
> be built and such on my machine and signed with my personal keys and
> such.
>
> Most just to satisfy my own curiosity. Might as well try and learn
> something
> new today. :-)
>
> --
> Daniel Kulp
> dkulp@apache.org
> http://www.dankulp.com/blog
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
On Mon January 11 2010 3:46:14 am Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
> > Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
> > understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
> > assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
> > least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
> > modifications?
>
> No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
> Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
> copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
> ownership of their contributions.
On a related note to solve my own curiosity.....
If committers retain the copyrights to everything they commit, then, in
theory, everything in svn is copyright the committers working on it and not
the ASF. Thus, why does our NOTICE file have:
Copyright 2006-2010 The Apache Software Foundation
Is that for the "collective work" (aka: the distribution)? Even that would
be built and such on my machine and signed with my personal keys and such.
Most just to satisfy my own curiosity. Might as well try and learn something
new today. :-)
--
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Jochen Wiedmann
<jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
>> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
>> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
>> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
>> action by the copyright owner?
>
> Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
> understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
> assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
> least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
> modifications?
No - as per http://www.apache.org/licenses/icla.txt ("2. Grant of
Copyright License") which is what committers sign, they only grant a
copyright license to the ASF, but all committers keep copyright
ownership of their contributions.
-Bertrand
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
> action by the copyright owner?
Beg your pardon, but why is the committer the "copyright owner"? My
understanding is that sources can only enter the incubator after
assignment of copyrights to the ASF, at which point the ASF is, at
least, *a* copyright owner with the right to perform arbitrary
modifications?
Jochen
--
Germanys national anthem is the most boring in the world - how telling!
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
Agreed with everything Joe said.
The only other thing I would suggest is to move the Apace License header
above the copyright notice. In general, I think we want to emphasize that
more. Also would allow automated checks (like checkstyle) to check to make
sure the Apache license is there first.
Dan
On Mon January 11 2010 11:13:42 am Joe Schaefer wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----
>
> > From: Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>
> > To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> > Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 8:53:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
> > (ESME-47), how best to solve?
> >
> > How should we proceed at a practical level?
> >
> > 1. Should / can we amend the original copyright notice as Darren
> > suggested. Do we need the permission of the original commiter to make
> > this change?
>
> <IMO>
>
> 1a) Darren's suggestions seem fine. 1b) No, as it is a clarification.
> I would say it can't hurt to ask, but when dealing with primadonnas you
> never know what might come back.
>
> > 2. Who will make this change in the SVN?
>
> 2) Makes no difference.
>
> > 3. Since the initial code drop was from the commiter in question and
> > he made changes in most files, do we look for files where he didn't
> > contribute code and then delete the copyright notice?
>
> 3) Unnecessary, but wouldn't hurt anything.
>
> > I'd like to be on rock-solid legal ground before such changes are made
> > - not only for the individuals involved but the project as well. Any
> > suggestion of murky / unresolved IP issues will scare potential users
> > away.
>
> There are no IP issues as has been pointed out by others, so long as nobody
> *removes* the applicable copyright notices.
>
> </IMO>
>
>
>
>
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--
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>.
Now getting OT for this list, but just quick comments on this:
On 12/01/2010, at 4:16 AM, Richard Hirsch wrote:
>
> Ideally, this summary would be posted by one of the ESME Mentors.
I think it would be fine (or better) if you, or another committer posted it too. The mentors don't want to be there to make rulings and tell you what to do - they want to be there to help make sure the podling can do that on its own :)
> 2. In files in which the copyright is present, the Apache License
> shall come before the Copyright notice:
>
> /*
> *
> * you may not use this file except in compliance with the License.
> * You may obtain a copy of the License at
> *
> * http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
> *
> * Unless required by applicable law or agreed to in writing,
> * software distributed under the License is distributed on an "AS IS" BASIS,
> * WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, either express or implied.
> * See the License for the specific language governing permissions
> * and limitations under the License.
> *
> * Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing, LLC (covers
> contributions from David Pollak only)
> */
Normally, instead of this, you would have two license headers, in their entirety. This one: http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html#header-existingcopyright (note that it is different from the ALv2.0 header), and the existing additional ALv2.0 header in it's entirety, without modification.
>
> 3. The line "Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing, LLC (covers
> contributions from David Pollak only)" shall be added to the NOTICE
> file.
I'm not sure about the "covers contributions" bit. It might be more appropriate to say "Portions Copyright ...", or just the Copyright statement. Others might correct me. If in doubt, just go with the "Copyright ..." statement as presented in the license header.
>
> 4. Future commits in Apache by the commiter will not be allowed unless
> he abides by the ASF copyright policies.
Irrelevant as he resigned. If he changes his mind, the podling can decide how to/whether to vote him back in. But yes, all committers on all projects are expected to abide by the source header policy.
Given it is unlikely he will return, I'd suggest waiting until things cool off, and then someone that knows him best from the podling tries politely asking again, based on the pain it is going to cause maintaining the extra headers.
Thanks,
Brett
--
Brett Porter
brett@apache.org
http://brettporter.wordpress.com/
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 12:16:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> I'd like to suggest creating a summary of the consensus that was
> reached and then post it to the esme-dev mailing list as well as the
> commiter in question. My goal is not to identify who is right or
> wrong but to propose of plan of action that is hopefully acceptable to
> all involved and close the issue.
>
> Ideally, this summary would be posted by one of the ESME Mentors.
That's not how this list operates. legal-discuss@ is a discussion forum
where you may coax some unofficial relevant information out of a participating
attorney. Nobody here is going to offer legal advice, and if that's what
you're looking for there is a different list for that.
Your plan looks reasonable to me, and since your overarching goal is to
comply with written ASF policy I see no reason why the ASF wouldn't defend
your actions (or whomever carries out this plan) in a court if it came to that.
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
I'd like to suggest creating a summary of the consensus that was
reached and then post it to the esme-dev mailing list as well as the
commiter in question. My goal is not to identify who is right or
wrong but to propose of plan of action that is hopefully acceptable to
all involved and close the issue.
Ideally, this summary would be posted by one of the ESME Mentors.
----------------------
Summary:
1. The Copyright notice "Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing,
LLC" that is present in the files SVN repository of the Apache
Incubator Project ESME
(http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/esme) shall be changed to
"Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing, LLC (covers contributions
from David Pollak only)"
2. In files in which the copyright is present, the Apache License
shall come before the Copyright notice:
/*
*
* you may not use this file except in compliance with the License.
* You may obtain a copy of the License at
*
* http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0
*
* Unless required by applicable law or agreed to in writing,
* software distributed under the License is distributed on an "AS IS" BASIS,
* WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND, either express or implied.
* See the License for the specific language governing permissions
* and limitations under the License.
*
* Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing, LLC (covers
contributions from David Pollak only)
*/
3. The line "Copyright 2008-2009 WorldWide Conferencing, LLC (covers
contributions from David Pollak only)" shall be added to the NOTICE
file.
4. Future commits in Apache by the commiter will not be allowed unless
he abides by the ASF copyright policies.
5. The files that do not contain code committed by the commiter in
question and which contain the copyright in question will have the
copyright removed.
---------------------
How is that?
D.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----
>
>> From: Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>
>> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
>> Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 8:53:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>>
>> How should we proceed at a practical level?
>>
>> 1. Should / can we amend the original copyright notice as Darren
>> suggested. Do we need the permission of the original commiter to make
>> this change?
>
> <IMO>
>
> 1a) Darren's suggestions seem fine. 1b) No, as it is a clarification.
> I would say it can't hurt to ask, but when dealing with primadonnas you
> never know what might come back.
>
>> 2. Who will make this change in the SVN?
>
> 2) Makes no difference.
>
>> 3. Since the initial code drop was from the commiter in question and
>> he made changes in most files, do we look for files where he didn't
>> contribute code and then delete the copyright notice?
>
> 3) Unnecessary, but wouldn't hurt anything.
>
>> I'd like to be on rock-solid legal ground before such changes are made
>> - not only for the individuals involved but the project as well. Any
>> suggestion of murky / unresolved IP issues will scare potential users
>> away.
>
> There are no IP issues as has been pointed out by others, so long as nobody
> *removes* the applicable copyright notices.
>
> </IMO>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>
> To: legal-discuss@apache.org
> Sent: Mon, January 11, 2010 8:53:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
>
> How should we proceed at a practical level?
>
> 1. Should / can we amend the original copyright notice as Darren
> suggested. Do we need the permission of the original commiter to make
> this change?
<IMO>
1a) Darren's suggestions seem fine. 1b) No, as it is a clarification.
I would say it can't hurt to ask, but when dealing with primadonnas you
never know what might come back.
> 2. Who will make this change in the SVN?
2) Makes no difference.
> 3. Since the initial code drop was from the commiter in question and
> he made changes in most files, do we look for files where he didn't
> contribute code and then delete the copyright notice?
3) Unnecessary, but wouldn't hurt anything.
> I'd like to be on rock-solid legal ground before such changes are made
> - not only for the individuals involved but the project as well. Any
> suggestion of murky / unresolved IP issues will scare potential users
> away.
There are no IP issues as has been pointed out by others, so long as nobody
*removes* the applicable copyright notices.
</IMO>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Richard Hirsch <hi...@gmail.com>.
How should we proceed at a practical level?
1. Should / can we amend the original copyright notice as Darren
suggested. Do we need the permission of the original commiter to make
this change?
2. Who will make this change in the SVN?
3. Since the initial code drop was from the commiter in question and
he made changes in most files, do we look for files where he didn't
contribute code and then delete the copyright notice?
I'd like to be on rock-solid legal ground before such changes are made
- not only for the individuals involved but the project as well. Any
suggestion of murky / unresolved IP issues will scare potential users
away.
D.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> Hi Geir,
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> I don't see this as a legal issue, but rather a community and social issue.,,
>>
>> Ok
>
> To be clear, any opinion I give is non-authoritative and just my personal opinion. I always defer to Larry and Sam on this stuff.
>
>>
>>> ...I assume in all of this that someone gently and privately explained how things work here to
>>> him, and gave him a chance to change his POV...
>>
>> ESME mentors tried, but he's not willing to change.
>>
>>>
>>> ...I'd prevent the committer from adding anything else if he doesn't want to comply with
>>> the community mores of the project. Thank him for his contribution and revoke commit karma....
>>
>> Ok, so threatening to revoke commit karma would have been the way to
>> enforce this policy, if we had caught that early enough. The commiter
>> in question has left the project in the meantime, so this lever
>> doesn't exist anymore.
>
> Oh. Then things are perfect. No social muss, and given the software is AL and there's an ICLA, no IP issue either.
>
>>
>>>
>>> ...Then leave the notice there, noting portions are copyright that person, with the regular ASF
>>> header on top of it. There's no IP issue....
>>
>> Ok, resonates with Darren's suggestion and with option 2) in my original post.
>>
>> Thanks to both of you for your input.
>> -Bertrand
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> geir
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> In the ESME podling that I'm co-mentoring, we have a committer who
>>>> refuses to remove copyright notices from source code that he committed
>>>> to the project after signing an iCLA.
>>>>
>>>> See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47 (starting from David
>>>> Pollak's comment 09/Jul/09 08:39 PM) and the discussion on the ESME
>>>> mailing list at http://markmail.org/message/czjiphudb4jz5yxl
>>>>
>>>> This could be seen as a matter of policy, not a legal issue:
>>>> http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html ("Source File Headers for
>>>> Code Developed at the ASF") clearly indicates that such headers must
>>>> be removed by the committer.
>>>>
>>>> But how do we solve that issue, considering said committer refuses to
>>>> do it? I see a few options, below.
>>>>
>>>> I have invited David to subscribe here to present his position
>>>> directly, not sure if he'll do that.
>>>>
>>>> Suggested options:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
>>>> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
>>>> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
>>>> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
>>>> action by the copyright owner?
>>>>
>>>> 2) Keep the notices and add alongside them another notice along the
>>>> lines of "the above notice only applies to parts of this source file"
>>>> and point to an explanation page. Pragmatic solution, doesn't comply
>>>> with our policy but if phrased well could be workable IMHO.
>>>>
>>>> 3) Remove from our subversion repository all code where the committer
>>>> refuses to remove those copyright notices, considering that their
>>>> contributions are not compatible with ASF policies. Note that in ESME
>>>> case this is a big chunk of the core code, not just a few things here
>>>> and there, so that would have a huge impact on the podling.
>>>>
>>>> 4) Convince the committer to remove the notices - doesn't seem
>>>> possible as he's strongly opposed to that, and in the meantime
>>>> announced his resignation from ESME and from the ASF.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any insights and/or links to similar cases.
>>>> -Bertrand (ESME podling mentor)
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@pobox.com>.
On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi Geir,
>
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> I don't see this as a legal issue, but rather a community and social issue.,,
>
> Ok
To be clear, any opinion I give is non-authoritative and just my personal opinion. I always defer to Larry and Sam on this stuff.
>
>> ...I assume in all of this that someone gently and privately explained how things work here to
>> him, and gave him a chance to change his POV...
>
> ESME mentors tried, but he's not willing to change.
>
>>
>> ...I'd prevent the committer from adding anything else if he doesn't want to comply with
>> the community mores of the project. Thank him for his contribution and revoke commit karma....
>
> Ok, so threatening to revoke commit karma would have been the way to
> enforce this policy, if we had caught that early enough. The commiter
> in question has left the project in the meantime, so this lever
> doesn't exist anymore.
Oh. Then things are perfect. No social muss, and given the software is AL and there's an ICLA, no IP issue either.
>
>>
>> ...Then leave the notice there, noting portions are copyright that person, with the regular ASF
>> header on top of it. There's no IP issue....
>
> Ok, resonates with Darren's suggestion and with option 2) in my original post.
>
> Thanks to both of you for your input.
> -Bertrand
>
>
>
>
>>
>> geir
>>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> In the ESME podling that I'm co-mentoring, we have a committer who
>>> refuses to remove copyright notices from source code that he committed
>>> to the project after signing an iCLA.
>>>
>>> See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47 (starting from David
>>> Pollak's comment 09/Jul/09 08:39 PM) and the discussion on the ESME
>>> mailing list at http://markmail.org/message/czjiphudb4jz5yxl
>>>
>>> This could be seen as a matter of policy, not a legal issue:
>>> http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html ("Source File Headers for
>>> Code Developed at the ASF") clearly indicates that such headers must
>>> be removed by the committer.
>>>
>>> But how do we solve that issue, considering said committer refuses to
>>> do it? I see a few options, below.
>>>
>>> I have invited David to subscribe here to present his position
>>> directly, not sure if he'll do that.
>>>
>>> Suggested options:
>>>
>>> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
>>> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
>>> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
>>> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
>>> action by the copyright owner?
>>>
>>> 2) Keep the notices and add alongside them another notice along the
>>> lines of "the above notice only applies to parts of this source file"
>>> and point to an explanation page. Pragmatic solution, doesn't comply
>>> with our policy but if phrased well could be workable IMHO.
>>>
>>> 3) Remove from our subversion repository all code where the committer
>>> refuses to remove those copyright notices, considering that their
>>> contributions are not compatible with ASF policies. Note that in ESME
>>> case this is a big chunk of the core code, not just a few things here
>>> and there, so that would have a huge impact on the podling.
>>>
>>> 4) Convince the committer to remove the notices - doesn't seem
>>> possible as he's strongly opposed to that, and in the meantime
>>> announced his resignation from ESME and from the ASF.
>>>
>>> Thanks for any insights and/or links to similar cases.
>>> -Bertrand (ESME podling mentor)
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Geir,
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> I don't see this as a legal issue, but rather a community and social issue.,,
Ok
> ...I assume in all of this that someone gently and privately explained how things work here to
> him, and gave him a chance to change his POV...
ESME mentors tried, but he's not willing to change.
>
> ...I'd prevent the committer from adding anything else if he doesn't want to comply with
> the community mores of the project. Thank him for his contribution and revoke commit karma....
Ok, so threatening to revoke commit karma would have been the way to
enforce this policy, if we had caught that early enough. The commiter
in question has left the project in the meantime, so this lever
doesn't exist anymore.
>
> ...Then leave the notice there, noting portions are copyright that person, with the regular ASF
> header on top of it. There's no IP issue....
Ok, resonates with Darren's suggestion and with option 2) in my original post.
Thanks to both of you for your input.
-Bertrand
>
> geir
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In the ESME podling that I'm co-mentoring, we have a committer who
>> refuses to remove copyright notices from source code that he committed
>> to the project after signing an iCLA.
>>
>> See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47 (starting from David
>> Pollak's comment 09/Jul/09 08:39 PM) and the discussion on the ESME
>> mailing list at http://markmail.org/message/czjiphudb4jz5yxl
>>
>> This could be seen as a matter of policy, not a legal issue:
>> http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html ("Source File Headers for
>> Code Developed at the ASF") clearly indicates that such headers must
>> be removed by the committer.
>>
>> But how do we solve that issue, considering said committer refuses to
>> do it? I see a few options, below.
>>
>> I have invited David to subscribe here to present his position
>> directly, not sure if he'll do that.
>>
>> Suggested options:
>>
>> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
>> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
>> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
>> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
>> action by the copyright owner?
>>
>> 2) Keep the notices and add alongside them another notice along the
>> lines of "the above notice only applies to parts of this source file"
>> and point to an explanation page. Pragmatic solution, doesn't comply
>> with our policy but if phrased well could be workable IMHO.
>>
>> 3) Remove from our subversion repository all code where the committer
>> refuses to remove those copyright notices, considering that their
>> contributions are not compatible with ASF policies. Note that in ESME
>> case this is a big chunk of the core code, not just a few things here
>> and there, so that would have a huge impact on the podling.
>>
>> 4) Convince the committer to remove the notices - doesn't seem
>> possible as he's strongly opposed to that, and in the meantime
>> announced his resignation from ESME and from the ASF.
>>
>> Thanks for any insights and/or links to similar cases.
>> -Bertrand (ESME podling mentor)
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Posted by "William A. Rowe Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Daniel Kulp wrote:
> On Mon January 11 2010 6:19:53 pm Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>> he's got a leg to stand (he signed the CLA to the best of my
>>> knowledge), I still would content that if it wasn't his intention to
>>> donate his code (better: license his copyright) to Apache, we might
>>> want to take his wish into consideration.
>> Even if he signed the ICLA and now says that he doesn't want us to use
>> his contributions, then I feel that we should endeavor to remove his
>> code. We're not in the business of incorporating code from
>> non-voluntary contributions. -- justin
>
> In his resignation, he wrote:
>
> ---------------
> My resignation in no way abrogates any rights in the copywritten
> materials that I have licensed to the ASF under my CLA.
> ---------------
>
> So I don't think this is an issue.
And more to the point - the AL is very specific on this point, let's just not
go down this path?
2. Grant of Copyright License. Subject to the terms and conditions of
this License, each Contributor hereby grants to You a perpetual,
worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable
copyright license to reproduce, prepare Derivative Works of,
publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, and distribute the
Work and such Derivative Works in Source or Object form.
Irrevocable means something very specific. After months of contributions,
with no apparent confusion about what the license meant, I'm disappointed
this would even be brought up. Words still mean something, I hope. The
precedence would be really maddening to me as a project chair, and I would
probably go to extreme measures, such as revoke many beer IOU's, if someone
set such a precedent.
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Daniel Kulp <dk...@apache.org>.
On Mon January 11 2010 6:19:53 pm Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> > he's got a leg to stand (he signed the CLA to the best of my
> > knowledge), I still would content that if it wasn't his intention to
> > donate his code (better: license his copyright) to Apache, we might
> > want to take his wish into consideration.
>
> Even if he signed the ICLA and now says that he doesn't want us to use
> his contributions, then I feel that we should endeavor to remove his
> code. We're not in the business of incorporating code from
> non-voluntary contributions. -- justin
In his resignation, he wrote:
---------------
My resignation in no way abrogates any rights in the copywritten
materials that I have licensed to the ASF under my CLA.
---------------
So I don't think this is an issue.
Dan
>
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--
Daniel Kulp
dkulp@apache.org
http://www.dankulp.com/blog
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>.
On 12/01/2010, at 10:19 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> he's got a leg to stand (he signed the CLA to the best of my
>> knowledge), I still would content that if it wasn't his intention to
>> donate his code (better: license his copyright) to Apache, we might
>> want to take his wish into consideration.
>
> Even if he signed the ICLA and now says that he doesn't want us to use
> his contributions, then I feel that we should endeavor to remove his
> code. We're not in the business of incorporating code from
> non-voluntary contributions. -- justin
He hasn't said he doesn't want his contributions to be used, he said he doesn't want the license header removed. But that would be a better topic for the esme lists now?
- Brett
--
Brett Porter
brett@apache.org
http://brettporter.wordpress.com/
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> he's got a leg to stand (he signed the CLA to the best of my
> knowledge), I still would content that if it wasn't his intention to
> donate his code (better: license his copyright) to Apache, we might
> want to take his wish into consideration.
Even if he signed the ICLA and now says that he doesn't want us to use
his contributions, then I feel that we should endeavor to remove his
code. We're not in the business of incorporating code from
non-voluntary contributions. -- justin
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Brett Porter <br...@apache.org>.
On 12/01/2010, at 10:08 AM, Craig L Russell wrote:
> From my reading of the email thread, there's been a misunderstanding here.
>
> The distinction between granting a copyright license and assigning copyright is subtle and this exchange brings the problem into focus:
Yes, and even more subtle is how he interpreted 'copyright license'. He thinks the CLA licenses it under the ALv2, but those terms are never outlined in the CLA. The CLA allows the ASF to sublicense it under the ALv2, which all current distributions do. In the future, there may be a policy change to make all future distributions under a newer Apache License.
- Brett
--
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brett@apache.org
http://brettporter.wordpress.com/
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47),
how best to solve?
Posted by Craig L Russell <Cr...@Sun.COM>.
From my reading of the email thread, there's been a misunderstanding
here.
The distinction between granting a copyright license and assigning
copyright is subtle and this exchange brings the problem into focus:
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, David Pollak <fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Gianugo Rabellino <
g.ra...@sourcesense.com> wrote:
On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:22 PM, David Pollak <fe...@gmail.com> wrote:
[David]The Apache 2.0 license, the license I granted in the code that
I've contributed to the ESME project, states in section 4.3:
[David] You must retain, in the Source form of any Derivative Works
that You distribute, all copyright, patent, trademark, and attribution
notices from the Source form of the Work, excluding those notices that
do not pertain to any part of the Derivative Works
[David] This was part of terms of my license grant in the code I
developed for ESME. Can you point to a place in the CLA where I have
abrogated this part of the license in favor of ASF rules?
[Gianugo] I'm afraid you got it wrong. You haven't licensed code to
Apache under the AL - by signing a CLA, and committing code to
Subversion, you have donated your code to the ASF (or, more strictly
speaking, licensed your a copyright). It is the ASF, then, licensing
it under the AL. If it was not your intention to license the whole
copyright, and if you are not content with being recognized in the
NOTICE file, that code will have to go.
[David] At no point did I assign any code to the ASF.
[Gianugo] What is the bit of "You hereby grant to the Foundation and
to recipients of software distributed by the Foundation a perpetual,
worldwide, non-exclusive, no-charge, royalty-free, irrevocable
copyright license" that you don't understand exactly?
[David] I granted a license to the ASF and section 4.3 of the license
I granted controls the retention of copyright notices.
[David] If you remove the copyright notices from the code that I
committed to the ESME project, I will consider that a violation of
license I granted to the ASF.
[David] If a lawyer wants to discuss this further, I am available.
[Gianugo] You are more than welcome to post a question to legal-discuss@a.o
. But if I were in your shoes, I would go and re-read the ICLA I
assume you signed.
-- Gianugo Rabellino M: +44 779 5364 932 / +39 389 44 26 846
Sourcesense - making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
I agree with Gianugo that the ICLA is the relevant bit, not the Apache
License 2.0. But David is right that he did not "assign any code to
the ASF". He licensed it, and this is the central misunderstanding.
Assume we agree with the spirit of David's remarks: he wants to retain
copyright notices in Apache distributions. The spirit of retaining
copyright notices is in putting the copyright notice in a more
prominent place: the top level of the project distribution. The
notices are still there, and distributed, just not in the source file
itself.
On Jan 11, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Gianugo Rabellino wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr.
> <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> I don't see this as a legal issue, but rather a community and
>> social issue.
>
> I wouldn't discount the (socio)-legal issue too quick. If you read the
> whole thread, you will find that the committer in question argues he
> never assigned code to Apache
He's right.
> but rather just licensed it under the
> Apache license
No, he licensed it under the ICLA.
> and as such has been threatening to consider a license
> violation removing the copyright (see
> http://markmail.org/message/bqeftxotgbgmed2r and
> http://markmail.org/message/x3ptcolixmabiwtz). As much as I'm not sure
> he's got a leg to stand (he signed the CLA to the best of my
> knowledge), I still would content that if it wasn't his intention to
> donate his code
True
> (better: license his copyright)
He does think he licensed it, not assigned the copyright.
The distinction is important. If you assign your copyright, you lose
your interest in it. Which is not what we do here. And not what David
wants.
[For an example of copyright assignment, try to submit a paper to ACM
for publication. When I had a paper accepted, they made me assign
copyright, so I could no longer use my own work in derivative works. I
had to ask them permission every time I used it. That's objectionable
to many people and why copyright assignment is not in use at Apache.]
> to Apache, we might
> want to take his wish into consideration.
I don't know if this situation is salvageable. But clarifying that
Apache doesn't want to own David's code might help.
Craig
>
> (Sorry for jumping in late - I'm stuck in a public building with no
> Internet access during the day.)
>
> --
> Gianugo Rabellino
> Sourcesense, making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
> (blogging at http://www.rabellino.it/blog/)
>
>>
>> I assume in all of this that someone gently and privately explained
>> how things work here to him, and gave him a chance to change his POV.
>>
>> I'd prevent the committer from adding anything else if he doesn't
>> want to comply with the community mores of the project. Thank him
>> for his contribution and revoke commit karma.
>>
>> Then leave the notice there, noting portions are copyright that
>> person, with the regular ASF header on top of it. There's no IP
>> issue.
>>
>> geir
>>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> In the ESME podling that I'm co-mentoring, we have a committer who
>>> refuses to remove copyright notices from source code that he
>>> committed
>>> to the project after signing an iCLA.
>>>
>>> See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47 (starting from
>>> David
>>> Pollak's comment 09/Jul/09 08:39 PM) and the discussion on the ESME
>>> mailing list at http://markmail.org/message/czjiphudb4jz5yxl
>>>
>>> This could be seen as a matter of policy, not a legal issue:
>>> http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html ("Source File Headers
>>> for
>>> Code Developed at the ASF") clearly indicates that such headers must
>>> be removed by the committer.
>>>
>>> But how do we solve that issue, considering said committer refuses
>>> to
>>> do it? I see a few options, below.
>>>
>>> I have invited David to subscribe here to present his position
>>> directly, not sure if he'll do that.
>>>
>>> Suggested options:
>>>
>>> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that
>>> even
>>> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
>>> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
>>> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk
>>> legal
>>> action by the copyright owner?
>>>
>>> 2) Keep the notices and add alongside them another notice along the
>>> lines of "the above notice only applies to parts of this source
>>> file"
>>> and point to an explanation page. Pragmatic solution, doesn't comply
>>> with our policy but if phrased well could be workable IMHO.
>>>
>>> 3) Remove from our subversion repository all code where the
>>> committer
>>> refuses to remove those copyright notices, considering that their
>>> contributions are not compatible with ASF policies. Note that in
>>> ESME
>>> case this is a big chunk of the core code, not just a few things
>>> here
>>> and there, so that would have a huge impact on the podling.
>>>
>>> 4) Convince the committer to remove the notices - doesn't seem
>>> possible as he's strongly opposed to that, and in the meantime
>>> announced his resignation from ESME and from the ASF.
>>>
>>> Thanks for any insights and/or links to similar cases.
>>> -Bertrand (ESME podling mentor)
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Craig L Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://db.apache.org/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:Craig.Russell@sun.com
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source
(ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by Gianugo Rabellino <gi...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. <ge...@pobox.com> wrote:
> I don't see this as a legal issue, but rather a community and social issue.
I wouldn't discount the (socio)-legal issue too quick. If you read the
whole thread, you will find that the committer in question argues he
never assigned code to Apache but rather just licensed it under the
Apache license and as such has been threatening to consider a license
violation removing the copyright (see
http://markmail.org/message/bqeftxotgbgmed2r and
http://markmail.org/message/x3ptcolixmabiwtz). As much as I'm not sure
he's got a leg to stand (he signed the CLA to the best of my
knowledge), I still would content that if it wasn't his intention to
donate his code (better: license his copyright) to Apache, we might
want to take his wish into consideration.
(Sorry for jumping in late - I'm stuck in a public building with no
Internet access during the day.)
--
Gianugo Rabellino
Sourcesense, making sense of Open Source: http://www.sourcesense.com
(blogging at http://www.rabellino.it/blog/)
>
> I assume in all of this that someone gently and privately explained how things work here to him, and gave him a chance to change his POV.
>
> I'd prevent the committer from adding anything else if he doesn't want to comply with the community mores of the project. Thank him for his contribution and revoke commit karma.
>
> Then leave the notice there, noting portions are copyright that person, with the regular ASF header on top of it. There's no IP issue.
>
> geir
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In the ESME podling that I'm co-mentoring, we have a committer who
>> refuses to remove copyright notices from source code that he committed
>> to the project after signing an iCLA.
>>
>> See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47 (starting from David
>> Pollak's comment 09/Jul/09 08:39 PM) and the discussion on the ESME
>> mailing list at http://markmail.org/message/czjiphudb4jz5yxl
>>
>> This could be seen as a matter of policy, not a legal issue:
>> http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html ("Source File Headers for
>> Code Developed at the ASF") clearly indicates that such headers must
>> be removed by the committer.
>>
>> But how do we solve that issue, considering said committer refuses to
>> do it? I see a few options, below.
>>
>> I have invited David to subscribe here to present his position
>> directly, not sure if he'll do that.
>>
>> Suggested options:
>>
>> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
>> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
>> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
>> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
>> action by the copyright owner?
>>
>> 2) Keep the notices and add alongside them another notice along the
>> lines of "the above notice only applies to parts of this source file"
>> and point to an explanation page. Pragmatic solution, doesn't comply
>> with our policy but if phrased well could be workable IMHO.
>>
>> 3) Remove from our subversion repository all code where the committer
>> refuses to remove those copyright notices, considering that their
>> contributions are not compatible with ASF policies. Note that in ESME
>> case this is a big chunk of the core code, not just a few things here
>> and there, so that would have a huge impact on the podling.
>>
>> 4) Convince the committer to remove the notices - doesn't seem
>> possible as he's strongly opposed to that, and in the meantime
>> announced his resignation from ESME and from the ASF.
>>
>> Thanks for any insights and/or links to similar cases.
>> -Bertrand (ESME podling mentor)
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: legal-discuss-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: legal-discuss-help@apache.org
>>
>
>
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Re: Committer refuses to remove copyright notices in source (ESME-47), how best to solve?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@pobox.com>.
I don't see this as a legal issue, but rather a community and social issue.
I assume in all of this that someone gently and privately explained how things work here to him, and gave him a chance to change his POV.
I'd prevent the committer from adding anything else if he doesn't want to comply with the community mores of the project. Thank him for his contribution and revoke commit karma.
Then leave the notice there, noting portions are copyright that person, with the regular ASF header on top of it. There's no IP issue.
geir
On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:28 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi,
>
> In the ESME podling that I'm co-mentoring, we have a committer who
> refuses to remove copyright notices from source code that he committed
> to the project after signing an iCLA.
>
> See https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ESME-47 (starting from David
> Pollak's comment 09/Jul/09 08:39 PM) and the discussion on the ESME
> mailing list at http://markmail.org/message/czjiphudb4jz5yxl
>
> This could be seen as a matter of policy, not a legal issue:
> http://www.apache.org/legal/src-headers.html ("Source File Headers for
> Code Developed at the ASF") clearly indicates that such headers must
> be removed by the committer.
>
> But how do we solve that issue, considering said committer refuses to
> do it? I see a few options, below.
>
> I have invited David to subscribe here to present his position
> directly, not sure if he'll do that.
>
> Suggested options:
>
> 1) Vote in the Incubator PMC to remove those notices, and do that even
> if copyright owner disagrees. Joe Schaefer on the ESME list
> (http://markmail.org/message/znyzwc3ugdnuncbk) says that's not an
> option, and I tend to agree - who would do that commit and risk legal
> action by the copyright owner?
>
> 2) Keep the notices and add alongside them another notice along the
> lines of "the above notice only applies to parts of this source file"
> and point to an explanation page. Pragmatic solution, doesn't comply
> with our policy but if phrased well could be workable IMHO.
>
> 3) Remove from our subversion repository all code where the committer
> refuses to remove those copyright notices, considering that their
> contributions are not compatible with ASF policies. Note that in ESME
> case this is a big chunk of the core code, not just a few things here
> and there, so that would have a huge impact on the podling.
>
> 4) Convince the committer to remove the notices - doesn't seem
> possible as he's strongly opposed to that, and in the meantime
> announced his resignation from ESME and from the ASF.
>
> Thanks for any insights and/or links to similar cases.
> -Bertrand (ESME podling mentor)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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