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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com> on 2003/07/23 01:24:44 UTC
xmlbeans project
Dear root,
The XML pmc has agreed to accept the XMLBean project for incubation. To
aid in the process:
please create the xml-xmlbeans CVS and the following mailing lists:
xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
Also please setup mailing list archiving in Eyebrowse
Thanks,
Ted
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On 24 Jul 2003 07:17:38 +0200
"Andreas Kuckartz" <A....@ping.de> wrote:
> > So incubator folks, what is the correct policy here?
>
> Lenya is also incubated @cocoon.apache.org and not @incubator.apache.org
>
> I do not see much sense in moving mailing lists arround. Please avoid
> such needless work.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
+1. (I am not PMC though ;-)
Moving Mailing List Address requires a lot of *energy*.
(as well as CVS, ML-Archive, Annoucements, etc.)
I can easily show you all up some examples of jakarta.
OJB and Torque were all listed as previous addresses, before
I performed surgery on jakarta-site2/xdocs/site/mail2.xml
in this month.
Poor, miserable newbies might wander off in Jakarta desert...
I can imagine easily ;-)
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 23:27:13 +0900
Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> wrote:
<snip/>
> <<e.g.>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The XXX pmc has agreed to accept the YYY project for incubation.
> To aid in the process,
> Please create these below:
>
> [1] Mailing List
> (i) addresses
> I. xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
> II. xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
> III. xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
> (ii) remote moderator
> .....(e.g. kitahata@terra-intl.com)
> (iii) archive
> mbox
> I. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/dev/YYYYMM.gz
> II. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/user/YYYYMM.gz
> III. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/cvs/YYYYMM.gz
>
> (iv) option
> I. Reply-To: Header [X] yes [ ] no
> II. Prefix in Subject [ ] yes [X] no
> III. eyebrowse [X] yes [ ] no
> IV. Message Trailer [X] yes [ ] no
> =====================(CUT HERE)======================================
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: xmlbeans-XXX-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: xmlbeans-XXX-help@xml.apache.org
> The Apache XMLBeans -- URL: http://xml.apache.org/xmlbeans/
> =====================(END)===========================================
>
>
> [2] CVS Module
>
> name: xml-xmlbeans
>
> [3] Initial list members
>
> XXXX@foo.bar.com
> (list up all the committers and mentoring members now)
> ...............
> ...............
>
> [4] Bugzilla
>
> ...............
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rather,
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The xml pmc has agreed to accept the xmlbeans project for incubation.
To aid in the process,
Please create these below:
[1] Mailing List
(i) addresses
I. xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
II. xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
III. xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
(ii) remote moderators
.....(e.g. kitahata@terra-intl.com)
(iii) archives
mbox
I. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/dev/YYYYMM.gz
II. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/user/YYYYMM.gz
III. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/cvs/YYYYMM.gz
(iv) options
I. Reply-To: Header [X] yes [ ] no
NOTE: xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org -> xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
II. Prefix in Subject [ ] yes [X] no
III. Eyebrowse [X] yes [ ] no
IV. Moderation Message [X] short [ ] long
V. Message Trailer [X] yes [ ] no
(a). xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
=====================(CUT HERE)======================================
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Apache XMLBeans Project -- URL: http://xml.apache.org/xmlbeans/
=====================(END)===========================================
(b). xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
=====================(CUT HERE)======================================
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Apache XMLBeans Project -- URL: http://xml.apache.org/xmlbeans/
=====================(END)===========================================
(c). xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
=====================(CUT HERE)======================================
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=====================(END)===========================================
[2] CVS Module
/home/cvs/xml-xmlbeans/
/home/cvspublic/xml-xmlbeans/
[3] Initial list members
XXXX@foo.bar.com
(list up all the committers and mentoring members now)
...............
...............
[4] Bugzilla
URL:
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/buglist.cgi?product=xmlbeans
[5] Other Mail Archives
1) Mail-Archive http://www.mail-archive.com/
2) Geocrawler http://geocrawler.com/
3) Mailing list Archives http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/
(Do it by ourselves)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(This is a <sample> :-)
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:17:45 +0200
Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de> wrote:
> On 25/07/2003, at 02:40, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> > On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:14:04 +0200 "Sander Striker"
> > <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> I'm 0 on both suggestions. Go with this one for now*. And lets not
> >> delay kicking off a project for this for too long.
> > applause!!
> Okay, I'm fine with this for now, but without an explicitly stated
> policy this discussion will come up every time a project arrives at the
> incubator. We definitely need a policy here, IMHO!
applause!! (again)
> On 23/07/2003, at 01:24, Ted Leung wrote:
>
> > Dear root,
> >
> > The XML pmc has agreed to accept the XMLBean project for incubation.
> > To aid in the process:
> >
> > please create the xml-xmlbeans CVS and the following mailing lists:
> >
> > xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
> > xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
> > xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
> >
> > Also please setup mailing list archiving in Eyebrowse
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ted
I think the request to infrastructure team should be
explained more in details.
(infrastructure team = infrastructure@apache.org)
<<e.g.>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The XXX pmc has agreed to accept the YYY project for incubation.
To aid in the process,
Please create these below:
[1] Mailing List
(i) addresses
I. xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
II. xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
III. xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
(ii) remote moderator
.....(e.g. kitahata@terra-intl.com)
(iii) archive
mbox
I. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/dev/YYYYMM.gz
II. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/user/YYYYMM.gz
III. http://xml.apache.org/mail/xmlbeans/cvs/YYYYMM.gz
(iv) option
I. Reply-To: Header [X] yes [ ] no
II. Prefix in Subject [ ] yes [X] no
III. eyebrowse [X] yes [ ] no
IV. Message Trailer [X] yes [ ] no
=====================(CUT HERE)======================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: xmlbeans-XXX-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: xmlbeans-XXX-help@xml.apache.org
The Apache XMLBeans -- URL: http://xml.apache.org/xmlbeans/
=====================(END)===========================================
[2] CVS Module
name: xml-xmlbeans
[3] Initial list members
XXXX@foo.bar.com
(list up all the committers and mentoring members now)
...............
...............
[4] Bugzilla
...............
------------------------------------------------------------------------
How about this?
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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RE: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Erik Abele [mailto:erik@codefaktor.de]
> Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 3:18 PM
[...]
> Okay, I'm fine with this for now, but without an explicitly stated
> policy this discussion will come up every time a project arrives at the
> incubator. We definitely need a policy here, IMHO!
I agree. I just didn't want it to be the bottleneck.
>>> Is someone already preparing account requests, mailinglist requests,
>>> cvs module requests etc, for the Infrastructure team to handle?
>
> Ted already requested the creation of the relevant mailing lists and
> CVS modules and exactly this request brought up this discussion another
> time :) see below...
Ah, dear root and all ;).
It may be wise to reissue the request, this time to infrastructure@,
with the appropiate CC's, pmc@incubator, pmc@xml, as before. There's
only a handful of roots, and only a subset of those have a black belt
in ezmlm-fu. infrastructure@ reaches a slightly wider audience
improving the chances of swift handling of the request.
Sander
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 25/07/2003, at 02:40, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:14:04 +0200 "Sander Striker"
> <st...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> I'm 0 on both suggestions. Go with this one for now*. And lets not
>> delay kicking off a project for this for too long.
>
> applause!!
Okay, I'm fine with this for now, but without an explicitly stated
policy this discussion will come up every time a project arrives at the
incubator. We definitely need a policy here, IMHO!
>> Is someone already preparing account requests, mailinglist requests,
>> cvs module requests etc, for the Infrastructure team to handle?
Ted already requested the creation of the relevant mailing lists and
CVS modules and exactly this request brought up this discussion another
time :) see below...
Cheers,
Erik
<snip />
On 23/07/2003, at 01:24, Ted Leung wrote:
> Dear root,
>
> The XML pmc has agreed to accept the XMLBean project for incubation.
> To aid in the process:
>
> please create the xml-xmlbeans CVS and the following mailing lists:
>
> xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
> xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
> xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
>
> Also please setup mailing list archiving in Eyebrowse
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ted
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:14:04 +0200
"Sander Striker" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> > [ ] project-subproject CVS
> > subproject-dev@project.apache.org
> > subproject-user@project.apache.org
> > subproject-cvs@project.apache.org
>
> I'm 0 on both suggestions. Go with this one for now*. And lets not
> delay kicking off a project for this for too long.
applause!!
> Is someone already preparing account requests, mailinglist requests,
> cvs module requests etc, for the Infrastructure team to handle?
I am not a committer of the xmlbeans project, however,
I am willing to volunteer the remote moderation of mailing lists.
(please devote all of your energy to what you can do! > xmlbeans folks)
Okay?
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Look, if instead of the "Incubation PMC" it was the "XML PMC", would it
> have been less confusing?
Not sure :>. Other projects (such as XML) are aimed at development in
some technical area. There are a bunch of processes that are common
accross Apache that support development. (Voting, committing etc.)
Those processes drive the other projects.
The Incubator project is aimed at something different. It's there to
support the process of "on-boarding" code bases and other products into
the Apache community. That process is unique to the Incubator. You
could almost argue that in other projects, the processes exist to
support the projects, but the Incubator project is the other way round -
it exists to support the Incubation process.
Personally, I reckon you are short-changing yourselves if you put
forward the idea that the Incubator PMC is just like any other PMC. I
think you play a different role and should celebrate it :>. It's
incredibly valuable. But that's personal opinion, so I'll shut up now.
>
> Again, don't confuse responsibility with "who does the work". In our
> case, ATM, the Incubator PMC basically controls that things don't go out
> of bounds. As for making the project proceed, it takes someone else for
> that, hence the sheperd or mentor thing.
I don't think I am, but I also believe that it's important to articulate
responsibilities outside those of the PMC.
>
> We are still learning and need fresh helpers, of you will join the
> effort and keep helping like you do now, with suggestions and questions,
> it will slowly get better :-)
>
And I do apologise for the long discussion. You have almost certainly
been through it before, but it has helped me understand a bit better.
With Cliff (not Chris :>) I'll do what I can to document my
understandings. Might short-circuit the conversations in future.
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re:
xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 7/28/03 2:03 AM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Berin Lautenbach wrote, On 27/07/2003 10.48:
>
>> Not sure I understand? (Call me slow :>). I'm more trying to determine
>> how that responsibility is realised.
>>
>> So for example, there is a requirement for a shepherd. That person has
>> a set of responsibilities. What are they?
>
> The shepherd not on the Incubator project has no more responsibilities
> than the ones from the project itself or the ones of any other Apache
> committer. The incubator shepherd has the responsibilities that any
> other Incubator project member has.
>
> Nothing different from the XML PMC.
>
Note that the XML and Jakarta PMC do not usually control things at the micro
level such as "what should the list alias look like".. For evidence, POI
has poi-dev, poi-user@jakarta.apache.org. Gump has gump@jakarta.apache.org.
The best government governs least.
>
> Reading the mailing lists, the help of the incubator/non-incubator
> shepherd, the status file of the project in the incubator CVS.
>
Backseat driver.
>
> Well, it's because it seems that there are some strange ideas WRT what
> incubation is.
>
> Look, if instead of the "Incubation PMC" it was the "XML PMC", would it
> have been less confusing?
>
> Again, don't confuse responsibility with "who does the work". In our
> case, ATM, the Incubator PMC basically controls that things don't go out
> of bounds. As for making the project proceed, it takes someone else for
> that, hence the sheperd or mentor thing.
>
Responsibility implies that you do work especially when someone drops the
ball.
> We are still learning and need fresh helpers, of you will join the
> effort and keep helping like you do now, with suggestions and questions,
> it will slowly get better :-)
Have the entire Incubator PMC resign, move the infrastructure resources
under the auspices of the Infrastructure group, move the responsibility for
incubation, legal responsibility, etc to the PMC for which the project has
applied where it ultimately will land/belong anyhow.
This will reduce the line at the DMV, eliminate confusion, etc.. . Don't
blame me, you asked... ;-)
-Andy
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Berin Lautenbach wrote, On 27/07/2003 10.48:
> Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>>> Which is one of the things I'm having problems grappling with at the
>>> moment. Exactly what are the responsibilities of the various parties
>>> in this process?
>>
>> It's simple:
>>
>> The Incubator PMC is responsible for the project. All others (can) help.
>
> Not sure I understand? (Call me slow :>). I'm more trying to determine
> how that responsibility is realised.
>
> So for example, there is a requirement for a shepherd. That person has
> a set of responsibilities. What are they?
The shepherd not on the Incubator project has no more responsibilities
than the ones from the project itself or the ones of any other Apache
committer. The incubator shepherd has the responsibilities that any
other Incubator project member has.
Nothing different from the XML PMC.
> How is this oversited by the Incubator PMC?
Reading the mailing lists, the help of the incubator/non-incubator
shepherd, the status file of the project in the incubator CVS.
> And also - what is the PMC not responsible for? I've seen in various
> places that the Incubator makes no decisions on technical merits (makes
> sense) of a new project/sub-project.
The PMC is responsible for everything, but as with any PMC, does not
decide on technical merits. Nothing different from the XML PMC.
> I notice in the STATUS file for the overall project, there is a plan for
> a set of bylaws for the project. I think that would be a great help.
+1
> It looks like this is all very much understood by those more intimately
> involved in the incubation process. For those of us coming in cold,
> it's a tad confusing.
Well, it's because it seems that there are some strange ideas WRT what
incubation is.
Look, if instead of the "Incubation PMC" it was the "XML PMC", would it
have been less confusing?
Again, don't confuse responsibility with "who does the work". In our
case, ATM, the Incubator PMC basically controls that things don't go out
of bounds. As for making the project proceed, it takes someone else for
that, hence the sheperd or mentor thing.
We are still learning and need fresh helpers, of you will join the
effort and keep helping like you do now, with suggestions and questions,
it will slowly get better :-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>> Which is one of the things I'm having problems grappling with at the
>> moment. Exactly what are the responsibilities of the various parties
>> in this process?
>
>
> It's simple:
>
> The Incubator PMC is responsible for the project. All others (can) help.
>
Not sure I understand? (Call me slow :>). I'm more trying to determine
how that responsibility is realised.
So for example, there is a requirement for a shepherd. That person has
a set of responsibilities. What are they? How is this oversited by the
Incubator PMC?
And also - what is the PMC not responsible for? I've seen in various
places that the Incubator makes no decisions on technical merits (makes
sense) of a new project/sub-project.
I notice in the STATUS file for the overall project, there is a plan for
a set of bylaws for the project. I think that would be a great help.
It looks like this is all very much understood by those more intimately
involved in the incubation process. For those of us coming in cold,
it's a tad confusing.
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Which rules make you so tired? I just blocked the creation of some
> resources for less than a week, and you are already tired? It takes
> years to build good communities, and patience is a virtue. I don't
> honestly think that some days will ruin it all.
>
> Suggestion: why don't we get to know the XMLBeans guys better? What
> about if each of them sends us a mail with a brief bio and expectations?
This debate seems to turn into a strange direction.
It was already decided about two weeks ago to accept that project into the
incubator. Why don't you simply let them join now so that we get to know
them better?
Andreas
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 7/30/2003 4:59 AM, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Ted Leung wrote, On 30/07/2003 12.15:
>
>> And can we get it on the website, please?
>
>
> Well, I would personally say no to having the grant itself there.
> Donations to the ASF should at least come through members IMHO and
> having the document there enforces it. I'll just add a note pointing
> to that location, unless others have different opinions.
>
I don't care as long as the people who need it know which version to
use. As far as it being members only, we don't have to accept a grant
just because someone sends us one. A note pointing to the right file
in the foundation CVS would be a huge improvement.
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote, On 30/07/2003 14.36:
> On 30/07/2003 13:59 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>>> And can we get it on the website, please?
>>
>> Well, I would personally say no to having the grant itself there.
On the website.
>> Donations to the ASF should at least come through members IMHO and
>> having the document there enforces it. I'll just add a note pointing
>> to that location, unless others have different opinions.
To the location of the grant file in the private CVS module for the ASF.
> 'There', 'that'...? Could you elaborate please?
>
> Where can it be found, then?
You snipped the part that talks about it. ;-P
You are not a member and do not have access to the CVS module where that
file is, hence your confusion.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 30/07/2003 13:59 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>> And can we get it on the website, please?
>
>
> Well, I would personally say no to having the grant itself there.
> Donations to the ASF should at least come through members IMHO and
> having the document there enforces it. I'll just add a note pointing to
> that location, unless others have different opinions.
'There', 'that'...? Could you elaborate please?
Where can it be found, then?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Ted Leung wrote, On 30/07/2003 12.15:
...
> Could we start by answering my question from 7/22 on the correct version
> of the software license grant document?
>
> I count three at the moment.
> 1) http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=104803185122794&w=2
> 2) foundation/software-grant.txt
> 3) foundation/license-grant.{txt,pdf}
IIUC these are all the same; they only differ as 1 and 3 contain the
actual names of some projects that have used it, and in particular 1
contains both versions. What is the problem?
> And can we get it on the website, please?
Well, I would personally say no to having the grant itself there.
Donations to the ASF should at least come through members IMHO and
having the document there enforces it. I'll just add a note pointing to
that location, unless others have different opinions.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> I noticed that you think the incubator PMC is responsible for doing the
> *work*
> of incubation. That is a false assumption. The Incubator is a place
> where new
> projects can be incubated. The contributors to the Incubator are those
> people who want to accomplish incubation. Anyone can contribute. The PMC
> exists solely for oversight of the process, not to implement the process.
Oversite implies some level of involvement - if there is oversite, then
it is part of the process, and therefore anyone doing oversite is
implementing their part of the process.
I don't see how you can be responsible and not also be involved at some
level. That's having your cake and eating it too.
I'm starting to lean strongly towards a model of the Incubation project
providing the standards and procedures that assist those responsible for
the incubation of a particular project (the shepherd/mentor and the
"owning" PMC) in the discharge of their duties.
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 7/30/2003 10:43 AM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 09:49 AM, Steven Noels wrote:
>
>>> If the STATUS file hasn't been updated in 3 months, and you see
>>> something that
>>> needs fixing, update it yourself!
>>> I noticed that you think the incubator PMC is responsible for doing
>>> the *work*
>>> of incubation. That is a false assumption. The Incubator is a place
>>> where new
>>> projects can be incubated. The contributors to the Incubator are those
>>> people who want to accomplish incubation. Anyone can contribute. The
>>> PMC
>>> exists solely for oversight of the process, not to implement the
>>> process.
>>
>>
>> I'm pretty sure _nobody_ thinks the incubator PMC is responsible for
>> doing any actual incubation work, except for setting out the
>> guidelines. Pardon me, but if they fail in doing that, and in the
>> mean time prove to be counterproductive by shielding away documents
>> from people who are actually helping incubating projects, well....
>
>
> What kind of guidelines would you like to see?
1. After a PMC has approved acceptance of a project for incubation and
in the mean time while you are waiting for infrastructure resources to
be created, please hold your e-mail discussions in
general@incubator.apache.org
2. The necessary documents (CLA, software-grant, etc) are a location X.
If location X is only accessible to a member, ask your shepherd to get
them for you
3. The naming policy for project mailing lists, cvs-repos, etc is X
4. Here is what you can expect the incubator project to do, and here is
what you have to do yourself.
>
> What specific activities do you consider counterproductive, and how do
> you propose we improve them?
It would really help if stuff like 1-4 were decided and posted on the
incubator site.
Ted
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 30/07/2003 19:43 Aaron Bannert wrote:
> What kind of guidelines would you like to see?
>
> What specific activities do you consider counterproductive, and how do
> you propose we improve them?
As much as your suggestions drive me towards a direction I'm already
fully aware of, I think this situation is very comparable with the start
of a new code-related project. If there's no code to play with, there's
only a slim chance a community will form. I reckon much 'code' is
already present within the Incubator project, still people do find it
quite unobvious to start playing with it, because of its distributed
character perhaps, or the unclear overall design. Much of the Incubator
documents remain unfinished, which indeed creates a nice work area for
people caring about the Incubator project. OTOH, the way the Incubator
is being put forward happens to be very demotivational, especially for
people who are already involved in various other ASF related efforts and
find themselves being dragged into the Incubator project only
circumstantial. There's a certain tendency to downplay ongoing
incubation efforts if they are not fully executioned from within the
reigns of the Incubator PMC, and one can get sick of hearing he should
help the PMC instead of the incubating project. Don't underestimate the
social aspect of all this. I know the Incubator is important for the
ASF, but that doesn't mean one must become a committer of it or PMC
member if he wants to help an incubating project.
The good thing of all this is that, by now, it's becoming crystal-clear
(at least to me), that the Incubator project should really be a library
of guidelines and nothing more. Since I'm much more of a hands-on guy
rather than a rules builder, I'm finding it hard to focus on rules
rather than on the problem at hand (= XMLBeans' incubation). This
shouldn't be a problem if rules builders cooperate rather than point
fingers, and someone tries to transcribe the efforts of the hand-on guys
into a pragmatical set of rules. I'm very grateful to see Berin
apparently trying to do so.
I'd rather collaborate rather than just comment, but I don't want to
raise expectations which I can't meet after being admitted. Modesty.
> (If you don't have CVS commit, ask for it. In the mean time, post
> patches if you see something that needs changing. The fastest way
> to get commit to *any* ASF project is to post so many patches to
> the development list that the committers can't keep up and eventually
> just give you direct access. :)
I'm fully aware of all that. I'm not a karma whore however, since I'm
already pretty much occupied with my current karma. ;-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 09:49 AM, Steven Noels wrote:
>> If the STATUS file hasn't been updated in 3 months, and you see
>> something that
>> needs fixing, update it yourself!
>> I noticed that you think the incubator PMC is responsible for doing
>> the *work*
>> of incubation. That is a false assumption. The Incubator is a place
>> where new
>> projects can be incubated. The contributors to the Incubator are those
>> people who want to accomplish incubation. Anyone can contribute. The
>> PMC
>> exists solely for oversight of the process, not to implement the
>> process.
>
> I'm pretty sure _nobody_ thinks the incubator PMC is responsible for
> doing any actual incubation work, except for setting out the
> guidelines. Pardon me, but if they fail in doing that, and in the mean
> time prove to be counterproductive by shielding away documents from
> people who are actually helping incubating projects, well....
What kind of guidelines would you like to see?
What specific activities do you consider counterproductive, and how do
you propose we improve them?
(If you don't have CVS commit, ask for it. In the mean time, post
patches if you see something that needs changing. The fastest way
to get commit to *any* ASF project is to post so many patches to
the development list that the committers can't keep up and eventually
just give you direct access. :)
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 30/07/2003 18:21 Aaron Bannert wrote:
> Yes, please discuss it here on general@incubator! Private email is the
> absolute
> worst place for these types of discussions.
That private mail, and even IRL talk, started literally _months_ ago
when Cliff from BEA approached me during a tradeshow to talk about the
eventual donation of XMLBeans to ASF. Given BEA's relative inexperience
with ASF, some reasons of discretion, the turbulent discussions about
process during Tapestry's incubation, and the long list of failures
amongst the projects listed on
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?ASFProposalPages, the
proposal has been created offlist, but with a board member cc'ed on the
most critical exchanges. That way, Cliff was able to come up with a
well-crafted proposal, without getting drowned in discussions like
these, which have nothing to do with content, and much with style &
process. While I value process, process should help and encourage rather
than obstruct progress.
After the proposal has been put live, I'm pretty sure the remaining
private conversation is only about administrative details, like the
correct spelling of cliff's account/first name and all that. Nothing
harmful at all.
> If the STATUS file hasn't been updated in 3 months, and you see
> something that
> needs fixing, update it yourself!
>
> I noticed that you think the incubator PMC is responsible for doing the
> *work*
> of incubation. That is a false assumption. The Incubator is a place
> where new
> projects can be incubated. The contributors to the Incubator are those
> people who want to accomplish incubation. Anyone can contribute. The PMC
> exists solely for oversight of the process, not to implement the process.
I'm pretty sure _nobody_ thinks the incubator PMC is responsible for
doing any actual incubation work, except for setting out the guidelines.
Pardon me, but if they fail in doing that, and in the mean time prove to
be counterproductive by shielding away documents from people who are
actually helping incubating projects, well....
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Wednesday, July 30, 2003, at 03:15 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
> Yes, I've looked at the STATUS file. You can't miss it -- it's
> autoposted every week. That doesn't change that the file hasn't been
> updated in 3 months. Yes, the CLAs and the software grant are being
> worked on. The code is being sanitized, the package names are being
> changed, etc. The discussions on this have been going on in private
> e-mail because there's no list for them to go to. I guess you guys
> just want us to dump all that stuff here in general@incubator.
Yes, please discuss it here on general@incubator! Private email is the
absolute
worst place for these types of discussions.
If the STATUS file hasn't been updated in 3 months, and you see
something that
needs fixing, update it yourself!
I noticed that you think the incubator PMC is responsible for doing the
*work*
of incubation. That is a false assumption. The Incubator is a place
where new
projects can be incubated. The contributors to the Incubator are those
people who want to accomplish incubation. Anyone can contribute. The PMC
exists solely for oversight of the process, not to implement the
process.
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 7/29/2003 11:51 PM, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Ted Leung wrote, On 29/07/2003 20.11:
> ...
>
>> Why are you blaming the XMLBeans guys for your not having your act
>> together?
>
>
> I'm not blaming them in any way, Ted. I'm surprised that this is what
> you have gathered from my mails, and if this is the case, I apologise.
When you say "I just blocked some resources from getting created for a
few days" (when there should have been a
policy that tells us how to name those resources without a flamewar),
and then follow it up with "Why don't we get to to know the XMLBeans
guys better", it kind of looks like you're trying to shift the problem.
Whatever. I just want to get this thing to the point where we can see
if the community stuff is working.
>> They can say all they want about how they want to work as a community
>> and allow non BEA developers and so forth, but we need to see them
>> doing that. I thought that was the point of incubation.
>
>
> This is a common misconseption of what the Incubator PMC has to do and
> this makes me even more sure that this PMC is needed.
>
> Have you looked at our STATUS file? Well, you will see that there are
> many things that have to be checked that have nothing to do with how
> they work together. As most Apache guys, you see communities working
> together and focus on that. But other things are also important, and
> that's why the Incubator PMC had to be created.
Yes, I've looked at the STATUS file. You can't miss it -- it's
autoposted every week. That doesn't change that the file hasn't been
updated in 3 months. Yes, the CLAs and the software grant are being
worked on. The code is being sanitized, the package names are being
changed, etc. The discussions on this have been going on in private
e-mail because there's no list for them to go to. I guess you guys just
want us to dump all that stuff here in general@incubator.
>
> I'm not saying that your rantings are unjustified, just that there are
> needs that nevertheless have to be fulfilled.
>
> Remember that your rants about how much time it takes to make
> decisions are not directed to us, but to Apache, and how Apache works
> currently. Decisions take time, and the Incubator takes time like any
> other project. The decision we were taking now is based on the
> problems about incubation of Lenya, which were recent. And the way
> infrastructure is handled has nothing to do with the Incubator.
I'm not part of the incubator PMC, and I haven' t been following the
problems with Lenya or Tapestry in detail. My expectation, foolish it
now seems, was that the incubator was functioning enough to get this
project off the ground, since it had already worked with these 2
projects. I thought that the incubator should have had plenty of time to
get running -- it's been 9 months since it was chartered. Obviously, I
am mistaken.
Infrastructure is a separate issue. I'm well aware that they are moving
stuff to minotaur these next few days.
>
>
> I have resigned from the Avalon PMC also because I want to help more
> in the Incubator. There has yet not been a serious tentative to make
> the Incubation work. We need volunteers, and I see that they are
> coming; let's get back to work.
>
+1
Could we start by answering my question from 7/22 on the correct version
of the software license grant document?
I count three at the moment.
1) http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=104803185122794&w=2
2) foundation/software-grant.txt
3) foundation/license-grant.{txt,pdf}
Which version did Tapestry and Lenya use? And can we get it on the
website, please?
Ted
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Ted Leung wrote, On 29/07/2003 20.11:
...
> Why are you blaming the XMLBeans guys for your not having your act
> together?
I'm not blaming them in any way, Ted. I'm surprised that this is what
you have gathered from my mails, and if this is the case, I apologise.
> It's all well and good for them to introduce themselves, but
> that's not what is holding us up right now. Right now, we're held up
> because we don't have a public mailing list where we can see whether
> their behavior matches their talk.
Here?
Remember that Incubators *don't* know anything about projects waiting to
get incubated, while sponsor instead have been talking with them for
weeks or months. It's a totally different POV.
> They can say all they want about how
> they want to work as a community and allow non BEA developers and so
> forth, but we need to see them doing that. I thought that was the point
> of incubation.
This is a common misconseption of what the Incubator PMC has to do and
this makes me even more sure that this PMC is needed.
Have you looked at our STATUS file? Well, you will see that there are
many things that have to be checked that have nothing to do with how
they work together. As most Apache guys, you see communities working
together and focus on that. But other things are also important, and
that's why the Incubator PMC had to be created.
I'm not saying that your rantings are unjustified, just that there are
needs that nevertheless have to be fulfilled.
Remember that your rants about how much time it takes to make decisions
are not directed to us, but to Apache, and how Apache works currently.
Decisions take time, and the Incubator takes time like any other
project. The decision we were taking now is based on the problems about
incubation of Lenya, which were recent. And the way infrastructure is
handled has nothing to do with the Incubator.
I have resigned from the Avalon PMC also because I want to help more in
the Incubator. There has yet not been a serious tentative to make the
Incubation work. We need volunteers, and I see that they are coming;
let's get back to work.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 7/29/2003 2:54 PM, Paul Hammant wrote:
> Folks,
>
> It seems there is enough discord over XMLBeans here, to warrant
> letting one slide for the sake of the peace.
>
> If CVS is set-up, let it be as is.
> If Mail lists are set-up, let them be as they are.
>
> - - -
>
> For future projects the PMC has decided that whilst in incubator, how
> about the following? It's refactored from prior chat, and common
> sense.... ?
>
> 1) projects@incubator.apache.org is the designated email address for
> user and developer chatter. A third-party or other apache hosted mail
> list is not within the Apache spirit and the intent of Incubator as
> set up, thus is not approved.
+1. Some of this should be added to
http://incubator.apache.org/process.html
> 2) CVS module will be 'incubator-subProjectName' (not with standing
> that there was some chatter about directories inside
> 'incubator-projects' for each sub project). All code is to come from
> the outside and be relabelled and relicensed at the outset. Any
> modules/jars depended on are to be clearly listed and appropriately
> licensed. The project team bringing code to the incubator are not to
> leave some subtle dependency to an external to Apache bit of code
> which may be essentially under the control of the committers and
> designed for the sub-project.
+1. The stuff on modules/jars and dependencies to external to Apache
code should get added to http://incubator.apache.org/process.html
>
> 3) Web sites will be hosted at
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/subProjectName. Project teams
> will desist and redirect web sites formerly the home of the project.
> The new site hosted at Apache will not refer to any commercial or open
> source 'value added' site dedicated to the new sub-project in anything
> other than a secondary links page.
+1. Add this to to http://incubator.apache.org/process.html
Ted
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Tuesday, July 29, 2003, at 10:54 PM, Paul Hammant wrote:
<snip>
> 3) Web sites will be hosted at
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/subProjectName. Project teams will
> desist and redirect web sites formerly the home of the project. The new
> site hosted at Apache will not refer to any commercial or open source
> 'value added' site dedicated to the new sub-project in anything other
> than a secondary links page.
really this needs to be an import process like the code import. the old
pages need to be imported and converted to the apache way both in format
and in tone. this is probably as important as the donation of the code and
may have similar copyright implications. ideally, the web site content
should be donated to apache as well as the code.
> 4) Downloads will be hosted at Apache under the usual mechanisms
i assume that this means downloads which comply with the ASF rules. so
this probably means new downloads created whilst in incubation.
> Thoughts ?
the rest sounds good to me. why not supply a (website) patch ;)
- robert
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@ThoughtWorks.net>.
Folks,
It seems there is enough discord over XMLBeans here, to warrant letting
one slide for the sake of the peace.
If CVS is set-up, let it be as is.
If Mail lists are set-up, let them be as they are.
- - -
For future projects the PMC has decided that whilst in incubator, how
about the following? It's refactored from prior chat, and common sense.... ?
1) projects@incubator.apache.org is the designated email address for
user and developer chatter. A third-party or other apache hosted mail
list is not within the Apache spirit and the intent of Incubator as set
up, thus is not approved.
2) CVS module will be 'incubator-subProjectName' (not with standing that
there was some chatter about directories inside 'incubator-projects' for
each sub project). All code is to come from the outside and be
relabelled and relicensed at the outset. Any modules/jars depended on
are to be clearly listed and appropriately licensed. The project team
bringing code to the incubator are not to leave some subtle dependency
to an external to Apache bit of code which may be essentially under the
control of the committers and designed for the sub-project.
3) Web sites will be hosted at
http://incubator.apache.org/projects/subProjectName. Project teams will
desist and redirect web sites formerly the home of the project. The new
site hosted at Apache will not refer to any commercial or open source
'value added' site dedicated to the new sub-project in anything other
than a secondary links page.
4) Downloads will be hosted at Apache under the usual mechanisms
Thoughts ?
- Paul
--
http://www.thoughtworks.com -> The art of heavy lifting.
Home for many Agile practicing, Open Source activists...
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RE: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Ted Leung [mailto:twleung@sauria.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 9:10 AM
>>You do realize that I'm neither a member of the Incubator PMC nor do I
>>support its existence. Create the mail list. The name shouldn't be up to
>>the Incubator, it should be up to the XML PMC. Its you're baby, you're
>>birthing it. Right now you're forced to do it here.
>>
>>
> I already asked infrastructure@ for this.
I'm clearing my stack tonight on infrastructure requests.
Sander
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 7/29/2003 3:06 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>On 7/29/03 2:11 PM, "Ted Leung" <tw...@sauria.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>On 7/29/2003 10:33 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 7/29/03 1:01 PM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>>That is an excellent idea.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Why are you blaming the XMLBeans guys for your not having your act
>>together? It's all well and good for them to introduce themselves, but
>>that's not what is holding us up right now. Right now, we're held up
>>because we don't have a public mailing list where we can see whether
>>their behavior matches their talk. They can say all they want about how
>>they want to work as a community and allow non BEA developers and so
>>forth, but we need to see them doing that. I thought that was the point
>>of incubation.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Ted,
>
>Perhaps you didn't mean to reply to me, rather Nicola Ken.
>
>
I was replying to a bunch of people in one e-mail. In the section
above, I was in fact replying to Nicola Ken.
>You do realize that I'm neither a member of the Incubator PMC nor do I
>support its existence. Create the mail list. The name shouldn't be up to
>the Incubator, it should be up to the XML PMC. Its you're baby, you're
>birthing it. Right now you're forced to do it here.
>
>
I already asked infrastructure@ for this.
>You're a member, call for its dissolution. Unfortunately, there is still a
>contingent of people that like the idea (regardless of its unsuccessful
>implementation) so I doubt you'll get consensus to dissolve it. More than
>likely you'll be chided on how you should JOIN the Incubator PMC...
>
>
I'm going to see if its possible to get the XMLBeans guys through this
thing. And we're going to document the
whole experience so that we have a case if it becomes necessary to go to
the board and members to cut this thing down.
Ted
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re:
xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 7/29/03 2:11 PM, "Ted Leung" <tw...@sauria.com> wrote:
> On 7/29/2003 10:33 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> On 7/29/03 1:01 PM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> That is an excellent idea.
>>
>>
>>
> Why are you blaming the XMLBeans guys for your not having your act
> together? It's all well and good for them to introduce themselves, but
> that's not what is holding us up right now. Right now, we're held up
> because we don't have a public mailing list where we can see whether
> their behavior matches their talk. They can say all they want about how
> they want to work as a community and allow non BEA developers and so
> forth, but we need to see them doing that. I thought that was the point
> of incubation.
>
Ted,
Perhaps you didn't mean to reply to me, rather Nicola Ken.
You do realize that I'm neither a member of the Incubator PMC nor do I
support its existence. Create the mail list. The name shouldn't be up to
the Incubator, it should be up to the XML PMC. Its you're baby, you're
birthing it. Right now you're forced to do it here.
You're a member, call for its dissolution. Unfortunately, there is still a
contingent of people that like the idea (regardless of its unsuccessful
implementation) so I doubt you'll get consensus to dissolve it. More than
likely you'll be chided on how you should JOIN the Incubator PMC...
> I think it would be great for the XMLBeans team to introduce
> themselves. Maybe you'd rather that genera@incubator.apache.org took up
> the slack for xmlbeans-dev@. That's fine with me too.
>
That¹s what I said. It would be good for them to introduce themselves to
the Apache community at large. This is as good a place as any.
-Andy
> Ted
>
>
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
> My opinion is that we will continue to meander around until someone
> who gives a rat's ass about some new project volunteers to set up
> the incubation process. Right now, nobody even wants to chair the PMC
> because anyone who attempts to lead is shot down and everyone who wants
> to create a new project is unwilling to work on documenting its
> progress.
as stated earlier, i give a rat's arse and i volunteer. :-)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 7/29/2003 2:50 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>> I've no issue with rules, except when we say we have rules but can't
>> articulate them. Example #1. What should the names of the mailing
>> lists and CVS be? projectt@incubator.apache.org or
>> project@xml.apache.org.
>
>
> We don't have that rule. Nicola Ken suggested creating such a rule.
>
> My opinion is that we will continue to meander around until someone
> who gives a rat's ass about some new project volunteers to set up
> the incubation process. Right now, nobody even wants to chair the PMC
> because anyone who attempts to lead is shot down and everyone who wants
> to create a new project is unwilling to work on documenting its progress.
I'm willing up to a certain point to do some work on this. My
frustration is that
the incubator has existed for quite some time, and should already have
some project
guidelines like the ones that I referred to.
The reason that people don't want to work on documenting the progress is
that they
don't like the process. They were told to go through the process by the
ASF. Inside
the ASF we have been told to use the incubator (whether we like it or
not). People who
signed up to be on the incubator volunteered to do the work of setting
up guidelines and
giving advice to new projects. So where are the guidelines? Where is
the board oversight
of the incubator as a project?
> In other words, there are insufficient volunteers to accept any new
> projects at Apache right now. Please come back at a later date, or
> volunteer to do the work and I'll give you cvs access.
This is not true. Steven Noels, myself, and Berin Lautenbach are
working to get this project
into Apache. I certainly didn't know that I was volunteering to do the
Incubator PMC's job
for it. I already have CVS access for incubator. I'd much rather you
gave me root and apmail
so that I can create the stuff that this project needs. Fortunately
for the incubator PMC,
Cliff and Berin are willing to do some work to improve the incubator
process.
Ted
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re:
xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 7/29/03 5:50 PM, "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> In other words, there are insufficient volunteers to accept any new
> projects at Apache right now. Please come back at a later date, or
> volunteer to do the work and I'll give you cvs access.
>
With all do respect Roy, there are sufficient volunteers to accept THIS
project into Apache. There are not ever going to be sufficient volunteers
to accept "projects" into Apache. No amount of social engineering or
chastising will change this. An alternative would be to adapt structures
which support the social patterns of the community rather than trying to
change the social patterns of the community. We've tried the latter up
until now.
-Andy
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org>.
> I've no issue with rules, except when we say we have rules but can't
> articulate them. Example #1. What should the names of the mailing
> lists and CVS be? projectt@incubator.apache.org or
> project@xml.apache.org.
We don't have that rule. Nicola Ken suggested creating such a rule.
My opinion is that we will continue to meander around until someone
who gives a rat's ass about some new project volunteers to set up
the incubation process. Right now, nobody even wants to chair the PMC
because anyone who attempts to lead is shot down and everyone who wants
to create a new project is unwilling to work on documenting its
progress.
In other words, there are insufficient volunteers to accept any new
projects at Apache right now. Please come back at a later date, or
volunteer to do the work and I'll give you cvs access.
> I am here representing the XML PMC. I've been *waiting* for the
> incubator PMC to make up its mind on how to name projects, and now I
> am *waiting* for infrastructure to create some resources (and yes, I
> know they are busy with minotaur, and I am cutting them some slack).
> I'm not willing to cut the high and mighty incubator PMC some slack
> for rules and policy that should have been in place for a year and the
> failure to document such.. It's fine for us to come out with the
> high and mighty Apache way, but when we don't have basic stuff like
> this in order it makes us look bad. As a n ASF member, member of 2
> PMCs, and former PMC chair, I find this to be an embarassment. If
> the incubator is incapable of doing its job then maybe an ASF member
> needs to introduce a resolution calling for its dissolution.
None of those are the job of the incubator PMC. They are all decisions
that anyone with commit access can make, or at least document to the
point where other people start complaining (at which point a decision
might need to be made, but more likely will just be resolved on this
list by the people working on incubation). There is nothing high and
mighty about the PMC -- it doesn't even decide what gets incubated.
Do you want me to be chair of incubator? At least then you won't have
to worry about indecisiveness.
....Roy
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
On 7/29/2003 10:33 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>On 7/29/03 1:01 PM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>After spending considerable time off-list with Cliff preparing his
>>>proposal, I'm getting a bit weary with all this rules stuff
>>>
>>>
>>ASF is incorporated. We have certain rules to abide to, like licensing
>>et all. And also internal rules, that you know quite well, about voting,
>>and about infrastructure policies.
>>
>>
>>
I've no issue with rules, except when we say we have rules but can't
articulate them. Example #1. What should the names of the mailing lists
and CVS be? projectt@incubator.apache.org or project@xml.apache.org.
>And see, I don't think you're the person who should be responsible for them
>Nicola Ken. I think the XML PMC/Steven should. If they don't have time or
>are unable to, then the project should not be under their oversight because
>it will be their continuing responsibility. Just because you seal the ship
>with turpentine doesn't mean it won't sink later if you never do it again.
>
>
I am here representing the XML PMC. I've been *waiting* for the
incubator PMC to make up its mind on how to name projects, and now I am
*waiting* for infrastructure to create some resources (and yes, I know
they are busy with minotaur, and I am cutting them some slack). I'm not
willing to cut the high and mighty incubator PMC some slack for rules
and policy that should have been in place for a year and the failure to
document such.. It's fine for us to come out with the high and mighty
Apache way, but when we don't have basic stuff like this in order it
makes us look bad. As a n ASF member, member of 2 PMCs, and former PMC
chair, I find this to be an embarassment. If the incubator is
incapable of doing its job then maybe an ASF member needs to introduce a
resolution calling for its dissolution.
>
>
>>Which rules make you so tired? I just blocked the creation of some
>>resources for less than a week, and you are already tired? It takes
>>years to build good communities, and patience is a virtue. I don't
>>honestly think that some days will ruin it all.
>>
>>
>>Suggestion: why don't we get to know the XMLBeans guys better? What
>>about if each of them sends us a mail with a brief bio and expectations?
>>
>>
>
>That is an excellent idea.
>
>
>
Why are you blaming the XMLBeans guys for your not having your act
together? It's all well and good for them to introduce themselves, but
that's not what is holding us up right now. Right now, we're held up
because we don't have a public mailing list where we can see whether
their behavior matches their talk. They can say all they want about how
they want to work as a community and allow non BEA developers and so
forth, but we need to see them doing that. I thought that was the point
of incubation.
I think it would be great for the XMLBeans team to introduce
themselves. Maybe you'd rather that genera@incubator.apache.org took up
the slack for xmlbeans-dev@. That's fine with me too.
Ted
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re:
xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 7/29/03 1:01 PM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hey, I'm the Incubator! 1-to-1 mapping! ;-P
>
I'm afraid this is actually true, even if it is not technically the case. I
take this as evidence of its failure for which it was actually doomed. I
applaud your efforts though. . I think you're a good person to suggest a
better system.
>> After spending considerable time off-list with Cliff preparing his
>> proposal, I'm getting a bit weary with all this rules stuff
>
> ASF is incorporated. We have certain rules to abide to, like licensing
> et all. And also internal rules, that you know quite well, about voting,
> and about infrastructure policies.
>
And see, I don't think you're the person who should be responsible for them
Nicola Ken. I think the XML PMC/Steven should. If they don't have time or
are unable to, then the project should not be under their oversight because
it will be their continuing responsibility. Just because you seal the ship
with turpentine doesn't mean it won't sink later if you never do it again.
> Which rules make you so tired? I just blocked the creation of some
> resources for less than a week, and you are already tired? It takes
> years to build good communities, and patience is a virtue. I don't
> honestly think that some days will ruin it all.
>
> Suggestion: why don't we get to know the XMLBeans guys better? What
> about if each of them sends us a mail with a brief bio and expectations?
That is an excellent idea.
--
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote, On 29/07/2003 18.50:
> On 29/07/2003 10:41 Berin Lautenbach wrote:
>
>> Steven Noels wrote:
>>
>>> and see to bring XMLBeans where people can actually help them out.
>>> Apart from Nicola's apparent efforts in keeping the Incubator alive,
>>> most of the real action is done by infrastructure peeps, and the
>>> dispersed shepherds of incubating projects, most of them assumably
>>> under the umbrella of the XML/Jakarta PMC. Let's keep it that way,
>>> and keep the incubating projects close to an active PMC.
>>
>> But being careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I
>> would have said there is real value in the Incubator defining and
>> fleshing out a process that is used by the various PMCs for incubation.
>
> Totally agree with that, of course, although I find this hard to find
> back in what Nicola has been up to this far (sorry to say so).
Hey, I'm the Incubator! 1-to-1 mapping! ;-P
> I'm
> willing to help out since I firmly believe in the need for a good
> acceptance/incubation process and tangible help for fledgling new Apache
> projects (and growth of new ASF projects is unavoidable, necessary, even
> healthy IMHO) - OTOH I feel a certain tendency towards overregulation
> and protectionism which I don't find inspiring.
Overregulation? Please be specific.
...
> After spending considerable time off-list with Cliff preparing his
> proposal, I'm getting a bit weary with all this rules stuff
ASF is incorporated. We have certain rules to abide to, like licensing
et all. And also internal rules, that you know quite well, about voting,
and about infrastructure policies.
Which rules make you so tired? I just blocked the creation of some
resources for less than a week, and you are already tired? It takes
years to build good communities, and patience is a virtue. I don't
honestly think that some days will ruin it all.
Suggestion: why don't we get to know the XMLBeans guys better? What
about if each of them sends us a mail with a brief bio and expectations?
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 29/07/2003 10:41 Berin Lautenbach wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>
>> and see to bring XMLBeans where people can actually help them out.
>> Apart from Nicola's apparent efforts in keeping the Incubator alive,
>> most of the real action is done by infrastructure peeps, and the
>> dispersed shepherds of incubating projects, most of them assumably
>> under the umbrella of the XML/Jakarta PMC. Let's keep it that way, and
>> keep the incubating projects close to an active PMC.
>
>
> But being careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I
> would have said there is real value in the Incubator defining and
> fleshing out a process that is used by the various PMCs for incubation.
Totally agree with that, of course, although I find this hard to find
back in what Nicola has been up to this far (sorry to say so). I'm
willing to help out since I firmly believe in the need for a good
acceptance/incubation process and tangible help for fledgling new Apache
projects (and growth of new ASF projects is unavoidable, necessary, even
healthy IMHO) - OTOH I feel a certain tendency towards overregulation
and protectionism which I don't find inspiring.
But maybe it is my persistent lack of time preventing me to fully jump
in the waters, causing me to seek false argumentation not being able to
cooperate on policy making - oh well.
After spending considerable time off-list with Cliff preparing his
proposal, I'm getting a bit weary with all this rules stuff - which
doesn't mean rules are not important. But they shouldn't mess up the
spirit, which is the real difference between Apache and the outside open
source world.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re:
xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 7/29/03 4:41 AM, "Berin Lautenbach" <be...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>> But being careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I
> would have said there is real value in the Incubator defining and
> fleshing out a process that is used by the various PMCs for incubation.
> It might even oversite the process at a high level to ensure
> consistency accross all incoming projects.
>
Which hasn't been done in coming up on 1 year. You feel that the progress
to that effect will increase? Lets face it, if Nicola wants to do that, he
will regardless of whether there is an incubator ;-)
> I think there might also need to be someone to look after projects that
> are going to come in at the top level - i.e. not under the auspices of
> another Apache project. A lot of the current Incubator documentation
> focuses on that case.
>
Ahh now this is ultimately what the board would delegate presumably.
However do you feel that the incubator PMC has a larger role to play here or
the sponsoring member/infrastructure?
> (Harping on a subject) - a charter/mission statement would be good :>.
> The stuff on wiki is a first stab at roles and responsibilities - can we
> start with that and flesh out?
>
The problem with bureaucracy (I'm not using this as the negative
connotation, this is a bureaucracy by dictionary definition) is the
distribution of responsibility and credit is demotivating.
-Andy
> Cheers,
> Berin
>
>
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> and see to bring XMLBeans where people can actually help them out. Apart
> from Nicola's apparent efforts in keeping the Incubator alive, most of
> the real action is done by infrastructure peeps, and the dispersed
> shepherds of incubating projects, most of them assumably under the
> umbrella of the XML/Jakarta PMC. Let's keep it that way, and keep the
> incubating projects close to an active PMC.
But being careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I
would have said there is real value in the Incubator defining and
fleshing out a process that is used by the various PMCs for incubation.
It might even oversite the process at a high level to ensure
consistency accross all incoming projects.
I think there might also need to be someone to look after projects that
are going to come in at the top level - i.e. not under the auspices of
another Apache project. A lot of the current Incubator documentation
focuses on that case.
(Harping on a subject) - a charter/mission statement would be good :>.
The stuff on wiki is a first stab at roles and responsibilities - can we
start with that and flesh out?
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re:
xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 7/28/03 10:08 AM, "Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> On 25/07/2003 14:09 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
>> Andrew C. Oliver wrote, On 25/07/2003 14.05:
> I am back from holidays so only lightly surfing the mail avalanche after
> being two weeks offline, but I'm slowly beginning to resonate with
> Andy's line of action.
>
Uh oh, its always scary when we agree... =;-}>
> Maybe they are bred on Andy's experiences during Tapestry's
> 'incubation', but given the fact Cliff/BEA/theXMLBeansPeeps are quite
> new to all this self-management and the Apache Way, and the fact that
> Nicola seems to be overly reluctant because of what happened/is still
> happening with Lenya (him being one of the main supporters of their
> incubation at that time), I would propose not to overregulate all this,
> and see to bring XMLBeans where people can actually help them out. Apart
> from Nicola's apparent efforts in keeping the Incubator alive, most of
> the real action is done by infrastructure peeps, and the dispersed
> shepherds of incubating projects, most of them assumably under the
> umbrella of the XML/Jakarta PMC. Let's keep it that way, and keep the
> incubating projects close to an active PMC.
>
> </Steven>
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 25/07/2003 14:09 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote, On 25/07/2003 14.05:
>> No this is difference than in the past. Remember the Incubator is
>> here to
>> help and its OUR responsibility to incubate? Its sounding like the
>> incubator stands over and tells folks what to do not only in helpful ways
>> but in details too.
>
>
> Responsible means responsible, nothing less, nothing more.
> Don't confuse responsibility with micro-management.
I am back from holidays so only lightly surfing the mail avalanche after
being two weeks offline, but I'm slowly beginning to resonate with
Andy's line of action.
Maybe they are bred on Andy's experiences during Tapestry's
'incubation', but given the fact Cliff/BEA/theXMLBeansPeeps are quite
new to all this self-management and the Apache Way, and the fact that
Nicola seems to be overly reluctant because of what happened/is still
happening with Lenya (him being one of the main supporters of their
incubation at that time), I would propose not to overregulate all this,
and see to bring XMLBeans where people can actually help them out. Apart
from Nicola's apparent efforts in keeping the Incubator alive, most of
the real action is done by infrastructure peeps, and the dispersed
shepherds of incubating projects, most of them assumably under the
umbrella of the XML/Jakarta PMC. Let's keep it that way, and keep the
incubating projects close to an active PMC.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote, On 25/07/2003 14.05:
> On 7/25/03 7:46 AM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>It's simple:
>>
>>The Incubator PMC is responsible for the project. All others (can) help.
>
> No this is difference than in the past. Remember the Incubator is here to
> help and its OUR responsibility to incubate? Its sounding like the
> incubator stands over and tells folks what to do not only in helpful ways
> but in details too.
Responsible means responsible, nothing less, nothing more.
Don't confuse responsibility with micro-management.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 25/07/2003, at 02:05, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> On 7/25/03 7:46 AM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>> It's simple:
>>
>> The Incubator PMC is responsible for the project. All others (can)
>> help.
>
> No this is difference than in the past. Remember the Incubator is
> here to
> help and its OUR responsibility to incubate? Its sounding like the
> incubator stands over and tells folks what to do not only in helpful
> ways
> but in details too.
There is no difference at all. The Incubator is like every other
project:
PMC => oversight and responsibility (long term direction)
Contributors/Comitterhship => help, day-to-day work and ideas
;-)
Cheers,
Erik
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re:
xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 7/25/03 7:46 AM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> It's simple:
>
> The Incubator PMC is responsible for the project. All others (can) help.
>
No this is difference than in the past. Remember the Incubator is here to
help and its OUR responsibility to incubate? Its sounding like the
incubator stands over and tells folks what to do not only in helpful ways
but in details too.
> ...
>> Tell me what I need to do, and I'll do it.
>
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/STATUS?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/
> vnd.viewcvs-markup
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/projects/
>
> I'll try to update the site docs ASAP.
>
> Please be patient, we need help.
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Berin Lautenbach wrote, On 25/07/2003 9.07:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> IMHO it depends on what the incubator PMC does. If they *do* create the
>> lists and the such then maybe they should set policy (meaning telling
>> other
>> people what do do == policy). If they rely on the XML project and the
>> XMLBeans folks to do things then they should allow the XML project and
>> XMLBeans folks to set their own policy.
>
> <FrustrationRant>
I am frutrated too, but I'm not ranting. Sorry, but it does not help
anyone to start ranting. You know how much time sometimes is needed to
take decisions in project, and the Incubator is a project itself.
> Which is one of the things I'm having problems grappling with at the
> moment. Exactly what are the responsibilities of the various parties in
> this process?
It's simple:
The Incubator PMC is responsible for the project. All others (can) help.
...
> Tell me what I need to do, and I'll do it.
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/STATUS?rev=HEAD&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/projects/
I'll try to update the site docs ASAP.
Please be patient, we need help.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> IMHO it depends on what the incubator PMC does. If they *do* create the
> lists and the such then maybe they should set policy (meaning telling other
> people what do do == policy). If they rely on the XML project and the
> XMLBeans folks to do things then they should allow the XML project and
> XMLBeans folks to set their own policy.
<FrustrationRant>
Which is one of the things I'm having problems grappling with at the
moment. Exactly what are the responsibilities of the various parties in
this process?
Incubator PMC?
Incubator team? (Is there such a thing?)
Sponsoring Project PMC?
Shepherd?
New project?
Tell me what I need to do, and I'll do it. It's extremely frustrating
to be in a situation where there is no clear direction, except to be
told what you can't do when it's suggested.
To be fair - that's a little heavy handed, particularly coming from an
interested bystander. But (as Aaron notes in a later e-mail) this is a
fairly trivial thing. If getting something trivial sorted out is this
difficult, it doesn't do much for one's confidence.
</FrustrationRant>
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 07:23 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> IMHO it depends on what the incubator PMC does. If they *do* create
> the
> lists and the such then maybe they should set policy (meaning telling
> other
> people what do do == policy). If they rely on the XML project and the
> XMLBeans folks to do things then they should allow the XML project and
> XMLBeans folks to set their own policy.
I agree. If a new project already has a prospective home, and that
PMC wants the mailing lists and CVS in their namespace, then go for
it. If a project has no prospective home, or the hopeful home's PMC
isn't totally on board yet, then they can always have @incubator.
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re:
xmlbeans project )
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
IMHO it depends on what the incubator PMC does. If they *do* create the
lists and the such then maybe they should set policy (meaning telling other
people what do do == policy). If they rely on the XML project and the
XMLBeans folks to do things then they should allow the XML project and
XMLBeans folks to set their own policy.
-Andy
On 7/24/03 9:48 AM, "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Since IMHO this has been already discussed enough and different POVs
> remain, I ask for a vote on the following.
>
> What should we use as a policy in creating resources for incubating
> projects?
>
> [ ] project-subproject CVS
> subproject-dev@project.apache.org
> subproject-user@project.apache.org
> subproject-cvs@project.apache.org
>
> [ ] incubator-subproject CVS
> subproject-dev@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-user@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-cvs@incubator.apache.org
>
> Please vote.
>
> Here is mine:
>
> [X] incubator-subproject CVS
> subproject-dev@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-user@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-cvs@incubator.apache.org
>
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
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RE: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:48 PM
> Since IMHO this has been already discussed enough and different POVs
> remain, I ask for a vote on the following.
>
> What should we use as a policy in creating resources for incubating
> projects?
>
> [ ] project-subproject CVS
> subproject-dev@project.apache.org
> subproject-user@project.apache.org
> subproject-cvs@project.apache.org
I'm 0 on both suggestions. Go with this one for now*. And lets not
delay kicking off a project for this for too long.
Is someone already preparing account requests, mailinglist requests,
cvs module requests etc, for the Infrastructure team to handle?
Sander
*) Even if it doesn't work for TLPs.
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> This is embarrassing. How can we have incubated several projects and
> not have this worked out?
These problems are typical for self-incubating incubators ;-)
Andreas
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 11:20 AM, Ted Leung wrote:
> This is embarrassing. How can we have incubated several projects and
> not have this worked out? No wonder people are complaining about the
> incubator.
It was never this big of an issue then (and I still don't think
it's that big of an issue).
-aaron
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
This is embarrassing. How can we have incubated several projects and
not have this worked out? No wonder people are complaining about the
incubator.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Since IMHO this has been already discussed enough and different POVs
> remain, I ask for a vote on the following.
>
> What should we use as a policy in creating resources for incubating
> projects?
>
> [ ] project-subproject CVS
> subproject-dev@project.apache.org
> subproject-user@project.apache.org
> subproject-cvs@project.apache.org
>
> [ ] incubator-subproject CVS
> subproject-dev@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-user@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-cvs@incubator.apache.org
>
> Please vote.
>
> Here is mine:
>
> [X] incubator-subproject CVS
> subproject-dev@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-user@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-cvs@incubator.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans project )
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 24/07/2003, at 03:48, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Since IMHO this has been already discussed enough and different POVs
> remain, I ask for a vote on the following.
>
> What should we use as a policy in creating resources for incubating
> projects?
>
> ...
I'm not on the incubator pmc but I'd like to see the following policy:
> [X ] incubator-subproject CVS
> subproject-dev@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-user@incubator.apache.org
> subproject-cvs@incubator.apache.org
Cheers,
Erik
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[VOTE] Policy for incubating project resources (was Re: xmlbeans
project )
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Since IMHO this has been already discussed enough and different POVs
remain, I ask for a vote on the following.
What should we use as a policy in creating resources for incubating
projects?
[ ] project-subproject CVS
subproject-dev@project.apache.org
subproject-user@project.apache.org
subproject-cvs@project.apache.org
[ ] incubator-subproject CVS
subproject-dev@incubator.apache.org
subproject-user@incubator.apache.org
subproject-cvs@incubator.apache.org
Please vote.
Here is mine:
[X] incubator-subproject CVS
subproject-dev@incubator.apache.org
subproject-user@incubator.apache.org
subproject-cvs@incubator.apache.org
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
> >> I do not see much sense in moving mailing lists arround. Please
> >> avoid such needless work.
>
> Then incubating would be needless work anyhow, we would make the project
> go live as final right away 8->
I do not hope that the main sense of the incubator is to have separate
mailing lists...
> The problem is that by creating the CVS and ML space in the final
> destination, the project actually behaves itself as it was already fully
> accepted by ASF, which is *not* the case.
I agree that there is a problem but I do not like the solution. What about a
one-line automatic signature added to mails which are sent to these mailing
lists?
> Renaming a ML or a CVS module is a trivial thing to do.
While it is not a big change "trivial" is not precisely true. Subscribers
have to update their mail filters/sorting mechanisms, mail archives have to
be merged somehow (or old contributions effectively become unfindable) etc.
And sometimes one of the mailing lists or Bugzilla-entries are simply
forgotten in the process - which can lead to missed mails.
Cheers,
Andreas
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>.
i agree with aaron (i think).
i think that if a project coming into the incubator has a
sponsoring project (i.e., an existing asf project will become
its home), then it should be up to the sponsor and the podling
to decide which route to follow for the mailing lists. if the
podling *doesn't* have a sponsor [yet], or is headed for
new-project-ness, then using @incubator makes sense to me.
--
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
> On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 10:17 PM, Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>
>> Lenya is also incubated @cocoon.apache.org and not
>> @incubator.apache.org
It's the only project now being incubated like this. IMO it was an error.
>> I do not see much sense in moving mailing lists arround. Please
>> avoid such needless work.
Then incubating would be needless work anyhow, we would make the project
go live as final right away 8->
Aaron Bannert wrote, On 24/07/2003 7.25:
> I can't remember if we have a precedence set here or not, but
> if PMC wants the mailing lists created in their namespace,
> than I see no reason not to go that way.
Well, I explained the reasons in the previous thread:
"Some sparse nots about changes to the incubation process"
(nots->notes)
The problem is that by creating the CVS and ML space in the final
destination, the project actually behaves itself as it was already fully
accepted by ASF, which is *not* the case.
There have been problems with Lenya because of this arramngement,
explained in the afromentioned thread, and the "incubator" naming is
meant to avoid this issue.
> On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 10:17 PM, Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>
> I do not see much sense in moving mailing lists arround. Please avoid
> such needless work.
Renaming a ML or a CVS module is a trivial thing to do. Instead, trying
to make a project look like if it's in incubation when it isn't is a
much more difficult task, as facts have shown.
Just trying the easiest and fastest route is not a solution.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
I can't remember if we have a precedence set here or not, but
if PMC wants the mailing lists created in their namespace,
than I see no reason not to go that way.
-aaron
On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 10:17 PM, Andreas Kuckartz wrote:
>> So incubator folks, what is the correct policy here?
>
> Lenya is also incubated @cocoon.apache.org and not
> @incubator.apache.org
>
> I do not see much sense in moving mailing lists arround. Please avoid
> such
> needless work.
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Andreas Kuckartz <A....@ping.de>.
> So incubator folks, what is the correct policy here?
Lenya is also incubated @cocoon.apache.org and not @incubator.apache.org
I do not see much sense in moving mailing lists arround. Please avoid such
needless work.
Cheers,
Andreas
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 19:20:53 +1000
(Subject: Re: xmlbeans project)
Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> > The only one thing I felt something out of joint is
> > usage of the term, "Shepherd".
> >
> > In the *real* business world, the role of "Shepherd" would
> > be called as the role of "Mentor".
> >
> > The word "Mentor" was (originally) derived from Greek Myth
> > (Mentor was a good teacher of Odysseus' children), however,
> > it is used to indicate "Good Teacher", "Precursor", "Senior"
> > , "Mental Supporter" etc.
> >
> > I prefer to use this term, "Mentor".
> > e.g. the ASF mentoring member
>
> :>. Shepherd also has implications of a protector who provides all,
> which is not quite what I think the role is about.
I did not know that Shepherd also could imply the protector...
like "Angel" :D
# The term "Angel" is also used in the INCUBATION process in
# the *real* business world... e.g. Venture Angel
> Happy to change the term in the doc if people think it should be
> changed, but it seems to be fairly consistently used?
i'm [+1] :D
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> The only one thing I felt something out of joint is
> usage of the term, "Shepherd".
>
> In the *real* business world, the role of "Shepherd" would
> be called as the role of "Mentor".
>
> The word "Mentor" was (originally) derived from Greek Myth
> (Mentor was a good teacher of Odysseus' children), however,
> it is used to indicate "Good Teacher", "Precursor", "Senior"
> , "Mental Supporter" etc.
>
> I prefer to use this term, "Mentor".
> e.g. the ASF mentoring member
:>. Shepherd also has implications of a protector who provides all,
which is not quite what I think the role is about.
Happy to change the term in the doc if people think it should be
changed, but it seems to be fairly consistently used?
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 00:57:31 -0700
"Cliff Schmidt" <cl...@bea.com> wrote:
> If Berin or anyone else wants to add some ideas or start adding some
> real content before I do, please go ahead and I'll pick up where you
> leave off. If there's already a better place to start adding this
> content, let me know.
>
> Thanks,
> Cliff
>
> [1] http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?NewProjectGuidelines
Oh, this is great! :-)
The only one thing I felt something out of joint is
usage of the term, "Shepherd".
In the *real* business world, the role of "Shepherd" would
be called as the role of "Mentor".
The word "Mentor" was (originally) derived from Greek Myth
(Mentor was a good teacher of Odysseus' children), however,
it is used to indicate "Good Teacher", "Precursor", "Senior"
, "Mental Supporter" etc.
I prefer to use this term, "Mentor".
e.g. the ASF mentoring member
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Berin Lautenbach <be...@ozemail.com.au>.
Paul Hammant wrote:
> Ted,
>
>> If you look at this message in the tapestry-dev@jakarta mailing list
>> it seems clear that they went into the incubator @jakarta
>>
>> http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listId=129&msgNo=2
>>
>> So incubator folks, what is the correct policy here?
>
>
> Both Tapesptry and Lenya were special cases. We've set policy since
> then. All new projects come through Incubator (mail lists, sites, CVS).
> Best to just go with the flow. One would also hope that future projects
> coming in take a while to incubate, and don't declare "success" and exit
> a mere couple of months after arriving. There is no allegation there of
> course :-)
Speaking as someone who has had to try to come up to speed with
incubation for the XMLBeans piece, it would be great to have all this
documented somewhere.
Chris was going to start something on Wiki. I wonder if there is an
opportunity for some of us to start this and flesh it out with what
happens as we go along?
I will try to kick something off either tonight or in the next few days
unless there are violent objections?
Cheers,
Berin
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On 7/24/03 4:21 AM, "Paul Hammant" <Pa...@ThoughtWorks.net> wrote:
> Ted,
>
>>>> Ok,
>>>>
>>>> Is the issue here being @xml vs being @incubator? If they need to
>>>> be @incubator that's totally fine with me.
>>>> Or is there something that I'm missing?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> IIUC it's all there is to it.
>>
>>
>> If you look at this message in the tapestry-dev@jakarta mailing list
>> it seems clear that they went into the incubator @jakarta
>>
>> http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listId=129&msgNo=2
>>
>> So incubator folks, what is the correct policy here?
>
> Both Tapesptry and Lenya were special cases. We've set policy since
> then. All new projects come through Incubator (mail lists, sites, CVS).
> Best to just go with the flow. One would also hope that future projects
> coming in take a while to incubate, and don't declare "success" and exit
> a mere couple of months after arriving. There is no allegation there of
> course :-)
Good thing its not an allegation because Tapestry took nearly a year.
>
> - Paul
> (Incubator PMC member).
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Paul Hammant <Pa...@ThoughtWorks.net>.
Ted,
>>> Ok,
>>>
>>> Is the issue here being @xml vs being @incubator? If they need to
>>> be @incubator that's totally fine with me.
>>> Or is there something that I'm missing?
>>
>>
>>
>> IIUC it's all there is to it.
>
>
> If you look at this message in the tapestry-dev@jakarta mailing list
> it seems clear that they went into the incubator @jakarta
>
> http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listId=129&msgNo=2
>
> So incubator folks, what is the correct policy here?
Both Tapesptry and Lenya were special cases. We've set policy since
then. All new projects come through Incubator (mail lists, sites, CVS).
Best to just go with the flow. One would also hope that future projects
coming in take a while to incubate, and don't declare "success" and exit
a mere couple of months after arriving. There is no allegation there of
course :-)
- Paul
(Incubator PMC member).
--
http://www.thoughtworks.com -> The art of heavy lifting.
Home for many Agile practicing, Open Source activists...
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Ted Leung wrote, On 23/07/2003 10.03:
>
>> Ok,
>>
>> Is the issue here being @xml vs being @incubator? If they need to be
>> @incubator that's totally fine with me.
>> Or is there something that I'm missing?
>
>
> IIUC it's all there is to it.
If you look at this message in the tapestry-dev@jakarta mailing list it
seems clear that they went into the incubator @jakarta
http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?listId=129&msgNo=2
So incubator folks, what is the correct policy here?
Ted
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Ted Leung wrote, On 23/07/2003 10.03:
> Ok,
>
> Is the issue here being @xml vs being @incubator? If they need to be
> @incubator that's totally fine with me.
> Or is there something that I'm missing?
IIUC it's all there is to it.
> It would help if the docs on incubation were a bit clearer as far as the
> process inside the incubator namely
> between incubator entry and exit. The whole mail list, cvs etc should
> be boilerplate by now.
Yes, of course.
I have no objection in having the sheperds be able to edit the Incubator
site... but guys, how about making Ted part of this PMC?
Someone wants to call a vote for it?
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Ted Leung <tw...@sauria.com>.
Ok,
Is the issue here being @xml vs being @incubator? If they need to be
@incubator that's totally fine with me.
Or is there something that I'm missing?
It would help if the docs on incubation were a bit clearer as far as the
process inside the incubator namely
between incubator entry and exit. The whole mail list, cvs etc should
be boilerplate by now.
Ted
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> Ted Leung wrote, On 23/07/2003 1.24:
>
>> Dear root,
>>
>> The XML pmc has agreed to accept the XMLBean project for incubation.
>> To aid in the process:
>>
>> please create the xml-xmlbeans CVS and the following mailing lists:
>>
>> xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
>> xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
>> xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
>>
>> Also please setup mailing list archiving in Eyebrowse
>
>
> Wait a second, I hate to rain on the party, but I'm -1 on this.
>
> I thought the Incubator PMC concurred to have the following:
>
> - incubator-xmlbeans CVS
> - xmlbeans-dev@incubator.apache.org
> - xmlbeans-user@incubator.apache.org
> - xmlbeans-cvs@incubator.apache.org
>
> I may be wrong, but please hold on till the Incubator PMC gives the ok
> for either of them.
>
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Re: xmlbeans project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Ted Leung wrote, On 23/07/2003 1.24:
> Dear root,
>
> The XML pmc has agreed to accept the XMLBean project for incubation. To
> aid in the process:
>
> please create the xml-xmlbeans CVS and the following mailing lists:
>
> xmlbeans-dev@xml.apache.org
> xmlbeans-user@xml.apache.org
> xmlbeans-cvs@xml.apache.org
>
> Also please setup mailing list archiving in Eyebrowse
Wait a second, I hate to rain on the party, but I'm -1 on this.
I thought the Incubator PMC concurred to have the following:
- incubator-xmlbeans CVS
- xmlbeans-dev@incubator.apache.org
- xmlbeans-user@incubator.apache.org
- xmlbeans-cvs@incubator.apache.org
I may be wrong, but please hold on till the Incubator PMC gives the ok
for either of them.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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