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Posted to docs-dev@perl.apache.org by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org> on 2001/12/26 13:34:50 UTC
Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Thomas Klausner wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On Sun, Dec 23, 2001 at 05:50:02PM -0500, Philip Mak wrote:
>
>>A horizontal scrollbar appears at the bottom of the screen.
>>
> Yeah, we are still trying to figure out how to make the content area not so
> big to force a scrollbar on users with low resolution, but still make it
> span the whole browser window wher there is no content in the content area.
>
> The problem is that when you specify width:400px and you have a big screen
> resolution, you end up with a lot of white space on the right side. If you
> don't specifiy a width, and there is no (or little) content, the content
> area is smaller than on other pages.
>
> See:
> http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/products/index.html
>
> I added a <div style='width:600px'> (actually it's class='spacer'..), which
> works for me (Mozilla / Opera on Linux), but Stas said it doesn't work for
> him.
It does work for this page, but if I go to
http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/contribute/index.html it's narrow
again. Aren't you using the same css file?
> Jonathan M. Hollin suggested filling the content area with a lot of
> which undoubtly works, but is IMO not that elegant.
but it's probably the best cross-platform/browser solution if we
consider the fact that some browsers don't support CSS. Isn't it?
>>I took a look at the style sheet
>>(http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/style.css) and changed a few numbers
>>such that the left sidebar takes up less space, and made it so that the
>>page is allowed to compress smaller such that it'll even fit in 640x480
>>
> Nice. I will use that!
Seconded!
>>that myself before but didn't manage to do so for pages this complicated.
>>
> If you do page design only with style sheets, the page will look
> strange/wrong on some browser without proper CSS support. So you'll need a
> good browser (Mozilla/Opera) and basically forget about non standard
> compliant browsers. Don't try to be cross-browser compatible, be standards
> compatible (validator.w3.org is your friend..)!
but we have users of all kinds, and we probably don't want to cut those
off, right?
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com
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RE: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: If you put a turtle on the rocket, it's going to be be not
:: that slow isn't it? So we have a perfect match, put the
:: camel on the eagle?
Slight problem with scale me-thinks. :-)
There must be some way to combine the two though (I think).
Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator
West Yorkshire Perl User Group
http://wypug.pm.org/
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> :: ...and someone got the dolphin before them, though i dont
> :: recall who. but we have the wonderful camel so we have power
> :: and elegance :) as for speed, hmm ...
>
> Hmm... Difficult to illustrate a fast camel...
>
> Anyhow the camel is Perl - the EAGLE should be our starting point yes?
If you put a turtle on the rocket, it's going to be be not that slow isn't it? So we have a perfect match, put the camel on the eagle?
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com
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RE: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: ...and someone got the dolphin before them, though i dont
:: recall who. but we have the wonderful camel so we have power
:: and elegance :) as for speed, hmm ...
Hmm... Difficult to illustrate a fast camel...
Anyhow the camel is Perl - the EAGLE should be our starting point yes?
Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator
West Yorkshire Perl User Group
http://wypug.pm.org/
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by allan <la...@inet.uni2.dk>.
"Jonathan M. Hollin" wrote:
>
> :: > i never did like that original logo, though i agree it gives some
> :: > light.
> ::
> ::
> :: Well come up with a new one if you can :) Seriously.
>
> +1
+1
> I would love to see a new mod_perl logo - something that conveys its
> elegance, power and speed. What a shame I'm a bad designer... What a
> shame MySQL got the dolphin first! :-)
...and someone got the dolphin before them, though i dont
recall who.
but we have the wonderful camel so we have power and
elegance :)
as for speed, hmm ...
./allan
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RE: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: > i never did like that original logo, though i agree it gives some
:: > light.
::
::
:: Well come up with a new one if you can :) Seriously.
+1
I would love to see a new mod_perl logo - something that conveys its
elegance, power and speed. What a shame I'm a bad designer... What a
shame MySQL got the dolphin first! :-)
A decent logo is long overdue and the introduction of such with mod_perl
2.0 would be superb.
Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator
West Yorkshire Perl User Group
http://wypug.pm.org/
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
>>* I like Thomas' logo better, it's giving light. Can we use it?
>>
>
>
> i never did like that original logo, though i agree it gives
> some light.
Well come up with a new one if you can :) Seriously.
>>* Also would like to have the bottom bar for TM/change date/other stuff.
>> What do you think? The "Use of the Camel for Perl is a trademark of
>>O'Reilly & Associates, and is used by permission" clearly doesn't belong
>>to the content box. So it's better to go to the bottom, something
>>similar to what I've place in the boilerplate:
>>http://www.apache.org/~stas/site/boilerplate/ I do want to put TT2 logo
>>there. And may be more things in the future.
>>
>
> ok, like in thomas current design i reckon?
His latest URL, yes.
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by allan <la...@inet.uni2.dk>.
hi again
> looks good, Allan. I still didn't see other different pages, with more
> content, almost no content at all. I guess this is still a manualy done
> page, so it's probably not easy to show other pages.
yes, please have in mind that currently all i can show has
to be done manually, sorry.
> comments:
>
> * s/Index/Table of Contents/. 'Index' is what you have at the end of the
> book, not the beginning. Am I wrong?
correct, but i just liked to have another word than Table of
Contents like the index-pages also have ...
>
> * It's not clear that the breadcrumb (home/download/) is a navigation
> element. IMHO, making it into a colored bar will help those who aren't
> used to the site yet. This can be a very light grey, but I don't think
> transparency is good here.
i agree i will look at it ...
> * I cannot judge the font selection for other browsers, but on
> linux/mozilla Thomas' fonts selection is much easier to read than yours.
> Any reason for picking this particular font?
well i like it, i will upload a larger version (same font)
later ...
> * Thomas' menu fonts are narrower - the menu takes less horizontal space.
i have one coming approx same size ...
> * I like Thomas' logo better, it's giving light. Can we use it?
i never did like that original logo, though i agree it gives
some light.
> * Also would like to have the bottom bar for TM/change date/other stuff.
> What do you think? The "Use of the Camel for Perl is a trademark of
> O'Reilly & Associates, and is used by permission" clearly doesn't belong
> to the content box. So it's better to go to the bottom, something
> similar to what I've place in the boilerplate:
> http://www.apache.org/~stas/site/boilerplate/ I do want to put TT2 logo
> there. And may be more things in the future.
ok, like in thomas current design i reckon?
./allan
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
allan wrote:
> Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>allan wrote:
>>
>>>i think if we decide to keep - what i call the ASF-colored
>>>bar as background for the title-bar and perhaps TOC we shoud
>>>stay with the white colored letters.
>>>in my idea of the design the h1-h6 "headlines" that have no
>>>colored background-bar are even already using the light
>>>gray/blue (#828DA6) from that same scheme. perhaps not very
>>>colorful but very ASF - and very cool :-)
>>>
>>Can we see an example of what you are talking about?
>>
>
> yes, on the content area of this page
>
> http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/var_d/download/binaries.html
>
>
> first a breadcrumb (home/download/)
> then follows a titlebar (ASF-background, white lettering)
> then follows a in-document navigation widget (ASF-colors)
> then follows anoher titlebar (Table of contens, named
> "Index" here, but again ASF-background, white lettering)
> if i click on the link called Description i get to a
> "headline" called Description. this headline has a white
> background and #828DA6-colored lettering.
looks good, Allan. I still didn't see other different pages, with more
content, almost no content at all. I guess this is still a manualy done
page, so it's probably not easy to show other pages.
comments:
* s/Index/Table of Contents/. 'Index' is what you have at the end of the
book, not the beginning. Am I wrong? And I still think that [TOC | TOP]
should be dressed similar to the [<|^|>] bar, like you had in the
original design.
* It's not clear that the breadcrumb (home/download/) is a navigation
element. IMHO, making it into a colored bar will help those who aren't
used to the site yet. This can be a very light grey, but I don't think
transparency is good here.
* I cannot judge the font selection for other browsers, but on
linux/mozilla Thomas' fonts selection is much easier to read than yours.
Any reason for picking this particular font?
* Thomas' menu fonts are narrower - the menu takes less horizontal space.
* I like Thomas' logo better, it's giving light. Can we use it?
* Also would like to have the bottom bar for TM/change date/other stuff.
What do you think? The "Use of the Camel for Perl is a trademark of
O'Reilly & Associates, and is used by permission" clearly doesn't belong
to the content box. So it's better to go to the bottom, something
similar to what I've place in the boilerplate:
http://www.apache.org/~stas/site/boilerplate/ I do want to put TT2 logo
there. And may be more things in the future.
Overall it seems that we are getting close to something very good. Good
work folks!
Me working on porting the content, so once we have the design ready we
can go to a preview stage with the real content.
p.s. I cannot remember where I've seen realy nice CSS for making <pre>
sections look very neat :( May be we should use this approach?
http://www.devshed.com/Server_Side/Administration/MoreApache/MoreApache1/page3.html
I think it's too noisy.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by allan <la...@inet.uni2.dk>.
Stas Bekman wrote:
>
> allan wrote:
> > i think if we decide to keep - what i call the ASF-colored
> > bar as background for the title-bar and perhaps TOC we shoud
> > stay with the white colored letters.
> > in my idea of the design the h1-h6 "headlines" that have no
> > colored background-bar are even already using the light
> > gray/blue (#828DA6) from that same scheme. perhaps not very
> > colorful but very ASF - and very cool :-)
>
> Can we see an example of what you are talking about?
yes, on the content area of this page
http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/var_d/download/binaries.html
first a breadcrumb (home/download/)
then follows a titlebar (ASF-background, white lettering)
then follows a in-document navigation widget (ASF-colors)
then follows anoher titlebar (Table of contens, named
"Index" here, but again ASF-background, white lettering)
if i click on the link called Description i get to a
"headline" called Description. this headline has a white
background and #828DA6-colored lettering.
> Looks good. It's not about <pre> tags alignment, but the alignment of
> the text inside <pre></pre>. So let the doc writers worry that they do a
> proper spacing. That's not a design problem :)
ok
./allan
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
allan wrote:
> Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>allan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>* The real documents should have their css spiced up, all black/white
>>>>text is hard to read. Can we put back the coloured H1-H6
>>>>
>>>>
>>>do you mean colored text for h1-h6 instead of white?
>>>
>>Like the guide does:
>>http://perl.apache.org/guide/config.html
>>
>>Of course the color choice may be different, but I think I like having
>>the color. It makes the page merrier ;) What do you think?
>>
>
> i think if we decide to keep - what i call the ASF-colored
> bar as background for the title-bar and perhaps TOC we shoud
> stay with the white colored letters.
> in my idea of the design the h1-h6 "headlines" that have no
> colored background-bar are even already using the light
> gray/blue (#828DA6) from that same scheme. perhaps not very
> colorful but very ASF - and very cool :-)
Can we see an example of what you are talking about?
>>>we have to be careful with netscape here. i think tags
>>>should look like
>>>
>>><pre>some code stuff</pre>
>>>
>>>and not (for instance)
>>>
>>><pre>
>>>
>>>some code stuff
>>></pre>
>>>
>>why? I'm talking about code sections which are exactly the second
>>option. In any case what's the problem?
>>
>
> oops i was too fast there, it wasn't so bad after a closer
> look.
> it seems we just have to keep the <pre> tags completely left
> of the html file
> and then only allow leading whitespace after the opening tag
> take a look at (in various browsers)
> http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/examples/code_ex/code_ex.html
Looks good. It's not about <pre> tags alignment, but the alignment of
the text inside <pre></pre>. So let the doc writers worry that they do a
proper spacing. That's not a design problem :)
_____________________________________________________________________
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http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com
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RE: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Philip Mak <pm...@animeglobe.com>.
On Thu, 27 Dec 2001, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> :: take a look at (in various browsers)
> :: http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/examples/code_ex/co
> de_ex.html
>
> I like this - it's beginning to look really neat now. I still think the
> left-hand column is too wide though...
Agreed, and the font also looks too small in Windows.
BTW, "Guess who's comming to dinner" is misspelled.
^^^^^^^
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RE: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
:: take a look at (in various browsers)
:: http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/examples/code_ex/co
de_ex.html
I like this - it's beginning to look really neat now. I still think the
left-hand column is too wide though...
Jonathan M. Hollin - WYPUG Co-ordinator
West Yorkshire Perl User Group
http://wypug.pm.org/
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by allan <la...@inet.uni2.dk>.
Stas Bekman wrote:
>
> allan wrote:
>
> >>* The real documents should have their css spiced up, all black/white
> >>text is hard to read. Can we put back the coloured H1-H6
> >>
> >
> > do you mean colored text for h1-h6 instead of white?
>
> Like the guide does:
> http://perl.apache.org/guide/config.html
>
> Of course the color choice may be different, but I think I like having
> the color. It makes the page merrier ;) What do you think?
i think if we decide to keep what i call the ASF-colored
bar as background for the title-bar and perhaps TOC we shoud
stay with the white colored letters.
in my idea of the design the h1-h6 "headlines" that have no
colored background-bar are even already using the light
gray/blue (#828DA6) from that same scheme. perhaps not very
colorful but very ASF - and very cool :-)
> > we have to be careful with netscape here. i think tags
> > should look like
> >
> > <pre>some code stuff</pre>
> >
> > and not (for instance)
> >
> > <pre>
> >
> > some code stuff
> > </pre>
>
> why? I'm talking about code sections which are exactly the second
> option. In any case what's the problem?
oops i was too fast there, it wasn't so bad after a closer
look.
it seems we just have to keep the <pre> tags completely left
of the html file
and then only allow leading whitespace after the opening tag
take a look at (in various browsers)
http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/examples/code_ex/code_ex.html
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
allan wrote:
>>* The real documents should have their css spiced up, all black/white
>>text is hard to read. Can we put back the coloured H1-H6
>>
>
> do you mean colored text for h1-h6 instead of white?
Like the guide does:
http://perl.apache.org/guide/config.html
Of course the color choice may be different, but I think I like having
the color. It makes the page merrier ;) What do you think?
>><PRE></PRE> section use a different background? I don't remember where
>>I've seen a very good CSS for <PRE> sections. Remember that it should be
>> just a little bit greish, since people tend to print pages and then
>>they complain about abusing their printers' cartridges.
>>
>
>
> we have to be careful with netscape here. i think tags
> should look like
>
> <pre>some code stuff</pre>
>
> and not (for instance)
>
> <pre>
>
> some code stuff
> </pre>
why? I'm talking about code sections which are exactly the second
option. In any case what's the problem?
_____________________________________________________________________
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http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
mailto:stas@stason.org http://ticketmaster.com http://apacheweek.com
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by allan <la...@inet.uni2.dk>.
> * The real documents should have their css spiced up, all black/white
> text is hard to read. Can we put back the coloured H1-H6
do you mean colored text for h1-h6 instead of white?
> <PRE></PRE> section use a different background? I don't remember where
> I've seen a very good CSS for <PRE> sections. Remember that it should be
> just a little bit greish, since people tend to print pages and then
> they complain about abusing their printers' cartridges.
we have to be careful with netscape here. i think tags
should look like
<pre>some code stuff</pre>
and not (for instance)
<pre>
some code stuff
</pre>
./allan
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by allan <la...@inet.uni2.dk>.
Philip Mak wrote:
>
> Someone wrote:
> > http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/var_c/
>
> Looking at it on Windows 98, I think that the font is too small. That size
> of font is more suitable for fine print. It would be cumbersome to read a
> lot of text at that font size.
i guess it is mostly the basefont in the content area, right?
i regrettly did change the stylesheet to use "exact"
font-sizes (px instead of em).
could i possibly ask you to take a screenshot, since im not
near any windows platform at the moment .. and/or possibly
change the stylesheet suitably for win 98?
thanks
allan
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Philip Mak <pm...@animeglobe.com>.
Someone wrote:
> http://www.bullitt.suite.dk/mod_perl_site/var_c/
Looking at it on Windows 98, I think that the font is too small. That size
of font is more suitable for fine print. It would be cumbersome to read a
lot of text at that font size.
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Thomas Klausner wrote:
> Hi!
>
> On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 08:34:50PM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
>
>>It does work for this page, but if I go to
>>http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/contribute/index.html it's narrow
>>again. Aren't you using the same css file?
>>
> I looks fine for me:
> http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/screenshot.png
> (Mozilla M18
> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001103
> )
Not for me:
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011012
mine is newer: 0.9.6, but the important engine is gecko which is much
never too.
>>>If you do page design only with style sheets, the page will look
>>>strange/wrong on some browser without proper CSS support. So you'll
need a
>>>good browser (Mozilla/Opera) and basically forget about non standard
>>>compliant browsers. Don't try to be cross-browser compatible, be
standards
>>>compatible (validator.w3.org is your friend..)!
>>>
>>but we have users of all kinds, and we probably don't want to cut those
>>off, right?
>>
> Definitly not. But I'd like to get a basic desing working (at least
on the
> browsers I have access to) and afterward try to resolve all problems
other
> users have with other browsers.
sounds good to me
> So i'd suggest we try to finish this design ASAP (IMO it looks quite nice
> right now, much better than all of the inital submissions), and than
either
> a) put it online and let other users comment on it
> or
> b) let other users comment on it and put it online afterward.
All those really interested in helping are listening right now, and can
chime in. So I say we go with a) and since we make it really easy to
change everything, we can fix things afterwards.
More issues:
* the copyright bar should go back to the
bottom, even if it fits nicely under the menu (there is no added value
to it). The 'ad' box should stay under the menu.
* is there any way we could make the << ^ >> standout? It'll help
location the navigation widgets a lot. And I guess the same for toc/top.
BTW, a few people said that only top or only toc should be there.
* The real documents should have their css spiced up, all black/white
text is hard to read. Can we put back the coloured H1-H6 and make the
<PRE></PRE> section use a different background? I don't remember where
I've seen a very good CSS for <PRE> sections. Remember that it should be
just a little bit greish, since people tend to print pages and then
they complain about abusing their printers' cartridges.
_____________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH -- Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide http://perl.apache.org/guide
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Re: [modperl site design challenge] and the winner is...
Posted by Thomas Klausner <do...@zsi.at>.
Hi!
On Wed, Dec 26, 2001 at 08:34:50PM +0800, Stas Bekman wrote:
> It does work for this page, but if I go to
> http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/contribute/index.html it's narrow
> again. Aren't you using the same css file?
I looks fine for me:
http://domm.zsi.at/modperl-site-domm/screenshot.png
(Mozilla M18
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9 i686; en-US; m18) Gecko/20001103
)
> > > Jonathan M. Hollin suggested filling the content area with a lot of > > Jonathan M. Hollin suggested filling the content area with a lot of > > Jonathan M. Hollin suggested filling the content area with a lot of > > Jonathan M. Hollin suggested filling the content area with a lot of
> > which undoubtly works, but is IMO not that elegant.
> but it's probably the best cross-platform/browser solution if we
> consider the fact that some browsers don't support CSS. Isn't it?
It is. I just wanted to try if a (IMO) more elegant solution would work.
Obviously it doesn't, so I will use Jonathan's method.
> > Nice. I will use that!
> Seconded!
It's online already.
> > If you do page design only with style sheets, the page will look
> > strange/wrong on some browser without proper CSS support. So you'll need a
> > good browser (Mozilla/Opera) and basically forget about non standard
> > compliant browsers. Don't try to be cross-browser compatible, be standards
> > compatible (validator.w3.org is your friend..)!
> but we have users of all kinds, and we probably don't want to cut those
> off, right?
Definitly not. But I'd like to get a basic desing working (at least on the
browsers I have access to) and afterward try to resolve all problems other
users have with other browsers.
So i'd suggest we try to finish this design ASAP (IMO it looks quite nice
right now, much better than all of the inital submissions), and than either
a) put it online and let other users comment on it
or
b) let other users comment on it and put it online afterward.
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