You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Jorg Heymans <jh...@domek.be> on 2004/04/30 15:56:00 UTC
formation@anyware-tech.com
Am i the only one who has received unsollicited cocoon related
advertisement mail from anyware-tech on several email addresses?
I believe it's a cocoon related company from one of the committers here.
Just curious...
Jorg
Re: formation@anyware-tech.com
Posted by Geoff Howard <co...@leverageweb.com>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> Geoff Howard wrote:
>
>> No, you're not the only one - but far from being upset I am always
>> happy to get commercial Cocoon information, especially from someone
>> actually involved in the community.
>>
>> Geoff
>>
>> Jorg Heymans wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Am i the only one who has received unsollicited cocoon related
>>> advertisement mail from anyware-tech on several email addresses?
>>> I believe it's a cocoon related company from one of the committers here.
>
>
> Sorry, the line has been crossed with me. I also got the spam, and I
> can't even read it since it's
>
> a) Totally in French, and I can't read a lick of French.
> b) In HTML
Hmm, mine had a clear bilingual message at the top:
Si le message ne s'affiche pas correctement, aller à l'adresse:
http://www.anyware-tech.com/home/mailing/anyware_formations_04_2004_fr.htm
If you cannot properly see this message, go to:
http://www.anyware-tech.com/home/mailing/anyware_formations_04_2004_en.htm
Geoff
Re: formation@anyware-tech.com
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agssa.net>.
Tony Collen dijo:
> Tony, who will happily opt-in for an English, plain-text email list from
> any company involved commercially with Cocoon.
And Antonio will be glad for a opt-in in Spanish :-D
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: formation@anyware-tech.com
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
Geoff Howard wrote:
> No, you're not the only one - but far from being upset I am always happy
> to get commercial Cocoon information, especially from someone actually
> involved in the community.
>
> Geoff
>
> Jorg Heymans wrote:
>
>>
>> Am i the only one who has received unsollicited cocoon related
>> advertisement mail from anyware-tech on several email addresses?
>> I believe it's a cocoon related company from one of the committers here.
Sorry, the line has been crossed with me. I also got the spam, and I
can't even read it since it's
a) Totally in French, and I can't read a lick of French.
b) In HTML
It's also completely unsolicited. That is where I draw the line, even
if it's for Cocoon stuff.
I wouldn't mind it so much if I were asked about it first, and I could
actuall comprehend the content. Come on, unsolicited email? I thought
people knew better these days.
Grumpily in the morning,
Tony, who will happily opt-in for an English, plain-text email list from
any company involved commercially with Cocoon.
Re: [OT] Re: formation@anyware-tech.com
Posted by Jorg Heymans <jh...@domek.be>.
i have been subscribed for quite a while, so maybe the number of mail
headers locally is messing things up. I unsubscribed and resubscribed,
that seemed to have restored things to "normal" again.
Thanks
Jorg
J.Pietschmann wrote:
> Jorg Heymans wrote:
>
>> On a side note: Thunderbird is not keeping track of threads anymore in
>> the cocoon mailinglists,
>
>
> Works fine with Thunderbird 0.7 on Win2k. You appear to post through
> GMANE, maybe they have an issue?
>
> J.Pietschmann
>
Re: [OT] Re: formation@anyware-tech.com
Posted by "J.Pietschmann" <j3...@yahoo.de>.
Jorg Heymans wrote:
> On a side note: Thunderbird is not keeping track of threads anymore in
> the cocoon mailinglists,
Works fine with Thunderbird 0.7 on Win2k. You appear to post through
GMANE, maybe they have an issue?
J.Pietschmann
Re: [OT] Re: formation@anyware-tech.com
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le 30 avr. 04, à 16:24, Jorg Heymans a écrit :
> ...On a side note: Thunderbird is not keeping track of threads anymore
> in the cocoon mailinglists, i trust that this is completely related to
> it not being capable of threading quite a large number of messages and
> *not* related to some server side knock-on config change somewhere
> somehow?...
FYI, threads work fine here (macosx, plain old osx mail client).
-Bertrand
[OT] Re: formation@anyware-tech.com
Posted by Jorg Heymans <jh...@domek.be>.
That is true ofcourse, but it wasn't the feeling i had initially :)
My first reaction was to send them email asking them to unsubscribe me,
(as I always do when I receive spam <grin>)
On a side note: Thunderbird is not keeping track of threads anymore in
the cocoon mailinglists, i trust that this is completely related to it
not being capable of threading quite a large number of messages and
*not* related to some server side knock-on config change somewhere somehow?
Jorg
Geoff Howard wrote:
> No, you're not the only one - but far from being upset I am always happy
> to get commercial Cocoon information, especially from someone actually
> involved in the community.
>
> Geoff
>
> Jorg Heymans wrote:
>
>>
>> Am i the only one who has received unsollicited cocoon related
>> advertisement mail from anyware-tech on several email addresses?
>> I believe it's a cocoon related company from one of the committers here.
>>
>> Just curious...
>>
>>
>> Jorg
>
>
>
>
Re: formation@anyware-tech.com
Posted by Geoff Howard <co...@leverageweb.com>.
No, you're not the only one - but far from being upset I am always happy to get
commercial Cocoon information, especially from someone actually involved in the
community.
Geoff
Jorg Heymans wrote:
>
> Am i the only one who has received unsollicited cocoon related
> advertisement mail from anyware-tech on several email addresses?
> I believe it's a cocoon related company from one of the committers here.
>
> Just curious...
>
>
> Jorg
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Le 1 mai 04, à 00:15, Sylvain Wallez a écrit :
>
>> ..Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me
>> than spamming grabbed email addresses...
>
>
> Same as others, I have no problem with Cocoon-related commercial
> announcements on our lists provided
>
> a) sender is in some way a member of the community
> b) such messages are clearly marked for example with [ANN] (or maybe a
> new [BIZ]) marker in the subject
> c) the number of such messages stays low.
Ok, there seems to be a general consensus for this approach, which after
more thinking I find finally better than "underground" uncontrolled spam.
Next question is if we consider that listing commercial resources on our
website is a good thing or not. We already have a training section [1],
in the "external resources" section (yes, Anyware is there), but we may
want to move it to a new "commercial resources" section containing other
kinds of resources (consulting, products, etc). IMO, this is as
important as listing live sites, as it shows newcomers that Cocoon is a
well established and widely used product for which they can find many
kinds of commercial support.
Struts has such a list of external resources, but although it used to be
on the Apache website, the link now points to an SF project [2] (powered
by Forrest BTW)
WDYT?
Sylvain
[1] http://cocoon.apache.org/link/training.html
[2] http://struts.sourceforge.net/community/index.html
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Jorg Heymans <jh...@domek.be>.
>
> a) sender is in some way a member of the community
+1, make that an "active" member
> b) such messages are clearly marked for example with [ANN] (or maybe a
> new [BIZ]) marker in the subject
+1 for [BIZ], maybe there is a way to automatically put [BIZ] messages
in a moderation queue?
> c) the number of such messages stays low.
++++1 - don't want the list to become a marketing plug.
@Sylvain: thanks for your thorough explanation of how this all happened,
I never did believe it was actually you sending it :) The story of the
over-eager and merciless marketing dept sounds very familiar to me!
Happy 3rd anniversary btw, may many more years follow :-)
Regards
Jorg Heymans
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Le 1 mai 04, à 00:15, Sylvain Wallez a écrit :
> ..Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me
> than spamming grabbed email addresses...
Same as others, I have no problem with Cocoon-related commercial
announcements on our lists provided
a) sender is in some way a member of the community
b) such messages are clearly marked for example with [ANN] (or maybe a
new [BIZ]) marker in the subject
c) the number of such messages stays low.
-Bertrand
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 01 May 2004, at 14:37, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Having a section on commercial offering is good (we already have it
> somehow), but what's needed is something more "proactive" to notify
> people of upcoming events such as these training sessions, and I don't
> think people are looking the website in search of regularily updated
> data. Sure, a RSS feed would help, but how much will subscribe to this
> feed?
"If it's any good, they will come." Don't you and your family visit
small shops who don't do any advertising, just because of
word-of-mouth, i.e. someone referring you to it? If we have an actively
maintained ad section with an RSS feed, pointing to interesting web
pages, this might be enough for people to subscribe to that feed and
decide for themselves how frequently they'll check that feed. I
wouldn't even mind having a course calendar with all offerings
side-by-side on our site: it shows people Cocoon is a serious project,
and that they can choose to attend courses in plenty of different
locations.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 01 May 2004, at 00:15, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>> Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me
>> than spamming grabbed email addresses.
>
>
> It does to me, since the lists are the fabric of our community. Just
> add some [ADD] prefix to the subject and its purpose would be quite
> clear. If you send irrelevant information, you'll be flamed on the
> spot. :-)
You're right. Irrelevant and aggressive announcement will be flamed
right away, quickly leading to self regulation.
> Another option could be to have some commercial news section on our
> website, perhaps also with some RSS feeds. Anyone who would like to be
> included on that page needs to send his announcement/article/whatever
> to the PMC and the PMC checks whether the announcement is
> relevant/applicable.
Having a section on commercial offering is good (we already have it
somehow), but what's needed is something more "proactive" to notify
people of upcoming events such as these training sessions, and I don't
think people are looking the website in search of regularily updated
data. Sure, a RSS feed would help, but how much will subscribe to this feed?
IMO, a good balance can be to have a combination of both: a short
announcement on the mailing-list inviting interested people to visit a
web page, be it on the Apache site or not. We have to be careful though
about hosting such announcements on the Apache server as it may look
like an endorsement from the PMC, and thus lead to frictions between
those that have the PMC's agreement and those that don't have it. It's
not the PMC job to select commercial offerings around Cocoon, although
it can be considered its responsibility to pay back active contributors
by giving them more visibility. Not that easy.
WDYT?
Ah, and I also apologize for those who are disapointed because they have
_not_ received the spam ;-)
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 01 May 2004, at 00:15, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Sending announcements to -users doesn't seem more appropriate to me
> than spamming grabbed email addresses.
It does to me, since the lists are the fabric of our community. Just
add some [ADD] prefix to the subject and its purpose would be quite
clear. If you send irrelevant information, you'll be flamed on the
spot. :-)
Another option could be to have some commercial news section on our
website, perhaps also with some RSS feeds. Anyone who would like to be
included on that page needs to send his announcement/article/whatever
to the PMC and the PMC checks whether the announcement is
relevant/applicable.
WDYT?
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XML An Orixo Member
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> Sylvain Wallez wrote:
>
>> Folks, I would like to apologize about the ad/spam many of you have
>> received today, and that I discovered this afternoon while being at a
>> customer site (the customer received the spam and is also on
>> cocoon-{users,dev}).
>
>
> Not a problem, Sylvain! No hard feelings on this side. I'm sorry if
> I came off as a little grouchy in my earlier message, I had just woken
> up, and it wasn't a good way to start the day.
Oh, sorry to have made your awakening difficult :-/
>> I sincerely and deeply apologize for what happened. Monday morning,
>> I'll had a strong explanation with this guy, so that he learns once
>> for all some of the rules of the opensource world. Some of these
>> rules also are no different from that of the "real" world: gaining
>> trust and confidence from other people is a long and difficult task,
>> and loosing it can happen very fast. I don't want to loose the trust
>> and confidence of the Cocoon community, which has been so important
>> to me for many years. Today is the 3rd birthday of me becoming a
>> Cocoon committer. Sad birthday.
>
>
> Smack him upside the head with a copy of the Cluetrain :)
Mmmh... I think I will slap him with a copy of the Cluetrain ;-P
> Happy birthday, BTW...
Thanks!
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
Sylvain Wallez wrote:
> Folks, I would like to apologize about the ad/spam many of you have
> received today, and that I discovered this afternoon while being at a
> customer site (the customer received the spam and is also on
> cocoon-{users,dev}).
Not a problem, Sylvain! No hard feelings on this side. I'm sorry if I
came off as a little grouchy in my earlier message, I had just woken up,
and it wasn't a good way to start the day.
<snip what="explanation"/>
> I sincerely and deeply apologize for what happened. Monday morning, I'll
> had a strong explanation with this guy, so that he learns once for all
> some of the rules of the opensource world. Some of these rules also are
> no different from that of the "real" world: gaining trust and confidence
> from other people is a long and difficult task, and loosing it can
> happen very fast. I don't want to loose the trust and confidence of the
> Cocoon community, which has been so important to me for many years.
> Today is the 3rd birthday of me becoming a Cocoon committer. Sad birthday.
Smack him upside the head with a copy of the Cluetrain :) Happy
birthday, BTW...
> Nevertheless, a lot of people are doing their lives with Cocoon, and
> it's very difficult to get in touch with Cocoon users. How could we do
> this in a community-friendly way? Sending announcements to -users
> doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email
> addresses. I'm very interested in hearing your opinions and starting a
> discussion about the relations of the Cocoon community and the people
> that provide some commercial services around it.
Here's what I would do: Send a message to -dev and -users explaining
that you're going to be starting to send out (commercial) announcements
regarding what you do, and if anyone is interested, to either sign up on
a site or send a message to a special email address.
That way, you don't spam the list with the announcements, and people can
totally opt-in. I think that's the key.
I had also mentioned this off-list: I think it might also be wise for
you guys to publish some RSS feeds (in multiple languages if possible)
that have these announcements. IMO that would be the most
community-friendly way. I'm in the process of starting my own
consulting company, and I'm already helping one client who sees the
light of RSS and how annoying commercial email can get. I'm thrilled to
see the direction that it can take.
>
> Sylvain
>
> PS: I was first thinking of sending this email from my work email
> address, but finally chose to use my apache address since these
> apologies come from a member of the Cocoon community that felt offended
> by this.
Regards,
Tony
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Joerg Heinicke <jo...@gmx.de>.
On 01.05.2004 12:19, Bruno Dumon wrote:
> I feel a bit left out for not having received the 'spam' ;-)
Exactly my feeling.
>> Sending announcements to -users
>>doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email
>>addresses.
>
> I don't think anyone would have had a problem with that. There have been
> announcements for other Cocoon courses, books, hosting services etc. on
> the users list.
Yes, I see no problems sending clearly marked announcements (e.g. [ANN]
in the subject) to the users list. I only would not like to see my email
address in yet another excel file/access db ;-)
Joerg
Re: Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Bruno Dumon <br...@outerthought.org>.
I feel a bit left out for not having received the 'spam' ;-)
On Sat, 2004-05-01 at 00:15, Sylvain Wallez wrote:
<snip/>
> Nevertheless, a lot of people are doing their lives with Cocoon, and
> it's very difficult to get in touch with Cocoon users. How could we do
> this in a community-friendly way?
Add a section on the Cocoon website?
> Sending announcements to -users
> doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email
> addresses.
I don't think anyone would have had a problem with that. There have been
announcements for other Cocoon courses, books, hosting services etc. on
the users list.
--
Bruno Dumon http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
bruno@outerthought.org bruno@apache.org
Apologies (was Re: formation@anyware-tech.com)
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Jorg Heymans wrote:
>
> Am i the only one who has received unsollicited cocoon related
> advertisement mail from anyware-tech on several email addresses?
> I believe it's a cocoon related company from one of the committers here.
Folks, I would like to apologize about the ad/spam many of you have
received today, and that I discovered this afternoon while being at a
customer site (the customer received the spam and is also on
cocoon-{users,dev}).
The company I work for not only does some projects with Cocoon, but also
proposes additional consulting and training services around it. You know
that for a long time if you ever looked at my signature.
We recently hired a new commercial guy to expand this consulting
activity. He asked me if he could grab some email adresses on the cocoon
lists to send an announcement about an upcoming training session. I told
him to be very careful about this and be sure to select only
french-speaking people, furthermore considering that training requires
physical presence and that I don't want to spend my life in airports. I
expected him to show me that list before sending anything.
Not only hadn't I a chance to review the list (I was away from office
for two days), but it also appears that the guy was very lazy at doing
some fine grained selection and sent this message in a spammy way (send
to many in order to be sure not to miss any potentially interested
people). There were some public reactions here, and I also received
several private emails from people being either offended or surprised by
this.
I sincerely and deeply apologize for what happened. Monday morning, I'll
had a strong explanation with this guy, so that he learns once for all
some of the rules of the opensource world. Some of these rules also are
no different from that of the "real" world: gaining trust and confidence
from other people is a long and difficult task, and loosing it can
happen very fast. I don't want to loose the trust and confidence of the
Cocoon community, which has been so important to me for many years.
Today is the 3rd birthday of me becoming a Cocoon committer. Sad birthday.
Nevertheless, a lot of people are doing their lives with Cocoon, and
it's very difficult to get in touch with Cocoon users. How could we do
this in a community-friendly way? Sending announcements to -users
doesn't seem more appropriate to me than spamming grabbed email
addresses. I'm very interested in hearing your opinions and starting a
discussion about the relations of the Cocoon community and the people
that provide some commercial services around it.
Sylvain
PS: I was first thinking of sending this email from my work email
address, but finally chose to use my apache address since these
apologies come from a member of the Cocoon community that felt offended
by this.
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }