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Posted to log4j-user@logging.apache.org by Ceki Gulcu <cg...@urbanet.ch> on 2000/12/15 02:16:28 UTC
What's in a name?
Hi Folks,
The Apache members have argued that the 4J suffix oozes with IBM. Moreover,
as in any case the project code will be placed under "org.apache.XYZ", this
is absolutely the best time to change the name of the project.
Even if we rename the project, http://www.log4j.org won't disappear and
will point to the new project at Apache. Thus, the log4j name recognition
argument, although very convincing at first, does not hold much water (IMHO).
Here are some possible choices:
- org.apache.cat
- org.apache.pebble
- org.apache.grit
This is a reference to the Henzel and Gretel fairy tale. Logging is a lot
like placing pebbles in a forest except that the forest is the application.
- org.apache.log4j Duh!
- org.apache.logging JSR47 copy cat.
- org.apache.log This one is already taken by Peter Donald's
LogKit in Avalon.
- org.apache.hlog 'H' for hierarchical.
- org.apache.moa Moa is a teeny island at the edge of Indonesia.
You are encouraged to make new project name proposals but please do not
vote yet. We'll vote after new proposals are made. Regards, Ceki
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Ceki Gulcu <cg...@urbanet.ch>.
Hi Eduardo,
I don't think anyone is suggesting that log4j be absorbed by Avalon. The
Avalon folks are kindly offering to give up "org.apache.log", a package
name currently owned by the Avalon LogKit. If we cannot preserve the
project name as is, i.e. log4j, then jakarta-log would be a reasonable
alternative. The code would be placed under the org.apache.log package.
In other words, the Avalon folks are being very cool by offering part of
their noosphere. :-) Ceki
ps: We might still be able to keep log4j as the project name.
At 11:04 21.12.2000 -0200, Eduardo Issao Ito wrote:
>This kind of attitude don't look fair with the log4j community that halped
>it to grow and have a wide recognition.
>
>An unilateral decision from the Avalon "owner" (that now seems will also
>be the log4j) is not a good start. I believe that most user of log4j don't
>even know what Avalon is and don't want to bound the log4j development to
>another project. Some day in the future I will have to install Avalon,
>only because I want to use its log package.
>
>
>Pier P. Fumagalli wrote:
>
>>Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>>
>>>As you are well aware, keeping the log4j name is somehow complicated. If
>>>the Avalon developers agree to giving up org.apache.log then that's perhaps
>>>the easiest solution. How painlessly can this be done? In any case, it's a
>>>generous offer. Ceki
>>
>>Fede said he doesn't like that package name "per se" and indipendently
>>of what the Log4J community wants to do, he wants to change it in
>>Avalon... Soooo... :)
>>
>> Pier
>>--
>>Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier>
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>To subscribe: java-apache-framework-on@list.working-dogs.com
>>To unsubscribe: java-apache-framework-off@list.working-dogs.com
>>Problems?: jon@working-dogs.com
>
>
>--
>--
>Eduardo Issao Ito <it...@integrationtech.com.br>
>Integration Technologies Ltda. <http://www.integrationtech.com.br>
>Rua Marina Saddi Haidar, 176
>04650-050 / Sao Paulo / SP / Brasil
>Phone: +55 11 5522-4848 x311
>Fax: +55 11 5524-1125
>
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 11:04 21/12/00 -0200, Eduardo Issao Ito wrote:
>
>This kind of attitude don't look fair with the log4j community that
>halped it to grow and have a wide recognition.
>
>An unilateral decision from the Avalon "owner" (that now seems will also
>be the log4j) is not a good start. I believe that most user of log4j
>don't even know what Avalon is and don't want to bound the log4j
>development to another project. Some day in the future I will have to
>install Avalon, only because I want to use its log package.
umm - I don't think thats is what Pier intended. The Avalon LogKit is
completely seperate and just currently uses org.apache.log namespace. I
think (depending on response from a few people) that we could move the
avalon logging to another namespace if Log4j wanted to use it.
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by "Pier P. Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org>.
Federico Barbieri wrote:
>
> Eduardo Issao Ito wrote:
> >
> > This kind of attitude don't look fair with the log4j community that
> > halped it to grow and have a wide recognition.
> >
> > An unilateral decision from the Avalon "owner" (that now seems will also
> > be the log4j) is not a good start. I believe that most user of log4j
> > don't even know what Avalon is and don't want to bound the log4j
> > development to another project. Some day in the future I will have to
> > install Avalon, only because I want to use its log package.
>
> HUGE misunderstanding.
Uh... Lovely when we all actually agree :) Being in two flamewars on two
other lists, I love the peace, quiet and agreement on this one...
Pier :)
--
Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier>
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Federico Barbieri <sc...@betaversion.org>.
Eduardo Issao Ito wrote:
>
> This kind of attitude don't look fair with the log4j community that
> halped it to grow and have a wide recognition.
>
> An unilateral decision from the Avalon "owner" (that now seems will also
> be the log4j) is not a good start. I believe that most user of log4j
> don't even know what Avalon is and don't want to bound the log4j
> development to another project. Some day in the future I will have to
> install Avalon, only because I want to use its log package.
>
???
HUGE misunderstanding.
the avalon project DO NOT OWN the org.apache.log name. It's been used
because it was supposed to be a general utility and so sharable code
with other projects. It's been like a small separate project for a
general purpose logger.
That is what is supposed to be in that package.
It's a matter of compare the current and candidate code for the package
and take the best.
Since log4j looks to me MUCH better I'm voting +1 to replace that
project (that is being developed under the avalon umbrella because it
was too small for a separate CVS tree) with log4j.
Like you I'm not the "onwer" of any project and I don't have any
decision power on log4j or on the org.apache.log name. It was just a
nice question: "do you have any good reason not to move your code away?"
wich I think is a very good attitude.
> Pier P. Fumagalli wrote:
>
> > Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> >
> >> As you are well aware, keeping the log4j name is somehow complicated. If
> >> the Avalon developers agree to giving up org.apache.log then that's perhaps
> >> the easiest solution. How painlessly can this be done? In any case, it's a
> >> generous offer. Ceki
> >
> >
> > Fede said he doesn't like that package name "per se" and indipendently
> > of what the Log4J community wants to do, he wants to change it in
> > Avalon... Soooo... :)
> >
> >
> > Pier
> >
> > --
> > Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > To subscribe: java-apache-framework-on@list.working-dogs.com
> > To unsubscribe: java-apache-framework-off@list.working-dogs.com
> > Problems?: jon@working-dogs.com
>
> --
> --
> Eduardo Issao Ito <it...@integrationtech.com.br>
> Integration Technologies Ltda. <http://www.integrationtech.com.br>
> Rua Marina Saddi Haidar, 176
> 04650-050 / Sao Paulo / SP / Brasil
> Phone: +55 11 5522-4848 x311
> Fax: +55 11 5524-1125
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> To subscribe: java-apache-framework-on@list.working-dogs.com
> To unsubscribe: java-apache-framework-off@list.working-dogs.com
> Problems?: jon@working-dogs.com
--
Federico Barbieri
<fe...@apache.org>
--
Federico Barbieri
<fe...@apache.org>
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Eduardo Issao Ito <it...@integrationtech.com.br>.
This kind of attitude don't look fair with the log4j community that
halped it to grow and have a wide recognition.
An unilateral decision from the Avalon "owner" (that now seems will also
be the log4j) is not a good start. I believe that most user of log4j
don't even know what Avalon is and don't want to bound the log4j
development to another project. Some day in the future I will have to
install Avalon, only because I want to use its log package.
Pier P. Fumagalli wrote:
> Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>
>> As you are well aware, keeping the log4j name is somehow complicated. If
>> the Avalon developers agree to giving up org.apache.log then that's perhaps
>> the easiest solution. How painlessly can this be done? In any case, it's a
>> generous offer. Ceki
>
>
> Fede said he doesn't like that package name "per se" and indipendently
> of what the Log4J community wants to do, he wants to change it in
> Avalon... Soooo... :)
>
>
> Pier
>
> --
> Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> To subscribe: java-apache-framework-on@list.working-dogs.com
> To unsubscribe: java-apache-framework-off@list.working-dogs.com
> Problems?: jon@working-dogs.com
--
--
Eduardo Issao Ito <it...@integrationtech.com.br>
Integration Technologies Ltda. <http://www.integrationtech.com.br>
Rua Marina Saddi Haidar, 176
04650-050 / Sao Paulo / SP / Brasil
Phone: +55 11 5522-4848 x311
Fax: +55 11 5524-1125
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by "Pier P. Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org>.
Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>
> As you are well aware, keeping the log4j name is somehow complicated. If
> the Avalon developers agree to giving up org.apache.log then that's perhaps
> the easiest solution. How painlessly can this be done? In any case, it's a
> generous offer. Ceki
Fede said he doesn't like that package name "per se" and indipendently
of what the Log4J community wants to do, he wants to change it in
Avalon... Soooo... :)
Pier
--
Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier>
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Ceki Gulcu <cg...@urbanet.ch>.
At 22:16 19.12.2000 -0800, Pier P. Fumagalli wrote:
>Peter Donald <do...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > At 08:47 18/12/00 +0100, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> >> org.apache.log (already taken)
> >
> > I can give this up if you would like ? It would take a little time (till a
> > bit after next release of Avalon) and may involve a bit of negotiation with
> > others but If this is a name you want I will get avalons changed.
>
>Yep... I had a chat with Fede, my roommate and the Avalon "lead" (like heavy
>metal, not "guide", since he's fat!).
>
>He told me he doesn't like Avalon to have org.apache.log, and will be more
>than willing to change it to something else (he's also happy that Log4J is
>now an Apache project!)...
Pier,
As you are well aware, keeping the log4j name is somehow complicated. If
the Avalon developers agree to giving up org.apache.log then that's perhaps
the easiest solution. How painlessly can this be done? In any case, it's a
generous offer. Ceki
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by "Pier P. Fumagalli" <pi...@betaversion.org>.
Peter Donald <do...@apache.org> wrote:
> At 08:47 18/12/00 +0100, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>> org.apache.log (already taken)
>
> I can give this up if you would like ? It would take a little time (till a
> bit after next release of Avalon) and may involve a bit of negotiation with
> others but If this is a name you want I will get avalons changed.
Yep... I had a chat with Fede, my roommate and the Avalon "lead" (like heavy
metal, not "guide", since he's fat!).
He told me he doesn't like Avalon to have org.apache.log, and will be more
than willing to change it to something else (he's also happy that Log4J is
now an Apache project!)...
Pier
--
Pier Fumagalli <http://www.betaversion.org/> <ma...@betaversion.org>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Ceki Gulcu <cg...@urbanet.ch>.
Pete,
This is very generous of you and I really appreciate the gesture. However,
adopting an already taken name would muddy things even further. It is best
to decline your offer. Thank you anyway. Ceki
At 07:12 19.12.2000 +1100, Peter Donald wrote:
>At 08:47 18/12/00 +0100, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> >org.apache.log (already taken)
>
>I can give this up if you would like ? It would take a little time (till a
>bit after next release of Avalon) and may involve a bit of negotiation with
>others but If this is a name you want I will get avalons changed.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Pete
>
>*-----------------------------------------------------*
>| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
>| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
>| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
>| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
>*-----------------------------------------------------*
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 08:47 18/12/00 +0100, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>org.apache.log (already taken)
I can give this up if you would like ? It would take a little time (till a
bit after next release of Avalon) and may involve a bit of negotiation with
others but If this is a name you want I will get avalons changed.
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
On Tuesday 19 December 2000 06:47, you wrote:
> Sven,
>
> >org.apache.sanskrit
> >org.apache.tarekat (Way to mystical knowledge)
> >
> >else some more suggestions:
> >
> >org.apache.kris (should be known :-)
> >org.apache.jaya (victory)
>
> As suggested previously by others, I think we should stick to names
> containing "log" somewhere in the name:
>
> Possible names are:
>
> org.apache.logging
> org.apache.catlog (sounds like catalog)
> org.apache.logcat (sounds like catalog)
> org.apache.loga (sounds like Yoga)
> org.apache.logy (logy means lethargic or sluggish. This is a nice,
> short and self-deriding name, much like a-patch-ee).
org.apache.logman ("log manager")
um :)
--Jeff
>
> Names to avoid:
>
> org.apache.log (already taken)
> org.apache.log4j (for political reasons)
>
> New proposals are welcome. Ceki
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Ceki Gulcu <cg...@urbanet.ch>.
Sven,
>org.apache.sanskrit
>org.apache.tarekat (Way to mystical knowledge)
>
>else some more suggestions:
>
>org.apache.kris (should be known :-)
>org.apache.jaya (victory)
As suggested previously by others, I think we should stick to names
containing "log" somewhere in the name:
Possible names are:
org.apache.logging
org.apache.catlog (sounds like catalog)
org.apache.logcat (sounds like catalog)
org.apache.loga (sounds like Yoga)
org.apache.logy (logy means lethargic or sluggish. This is a nice,
short and self-deriding name, much like a-patch-ee).
Names to avoid:
org.apache.log (already taken)
org.apache.log4j (for political reasons)
New proposals are welcome. Ceki
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Sven Reimers <sv...@debis.com>.
Hi Ceki,
am I right that this move includes rewriting of the source?
(Just out of curiosity).
The name ...
I think it would probably be fine to get a new name, since now
all effort will go there and not longer to former log4j - please
correct me here if I am wrong.
I am not quite sure if I am happy with your proposed names may be could
put something in it indicating what we are doing (at least a bit)
org.apache.sanskrit
org.apache.tarekat (Way to mystical knowledge)
else some more suggestions:
org.apache.kris (should be known :-)
org.apache.jaya (victory)
Only my 0.02$
Sven
Ceki Gulcu schrieb:
> Hi Folks,
>
> The Apache members have argued that the 4J suffix oozes with IBM. Moreover,
> as in any case the project code will be placed under "org.apache.XYZ", this
> is absolutely the best time to change the name of the project.
>
> Even if we rename the project, http://www.log4j.org won't disappear and
> will point to the new project at Apache. Thus, the log4j name recognition
> argument, although very convincing at first, does not hold much water (IMHO).
>
> Here are some possible choices:
>
> - org.apache.cat
> - org.apache.pebble
> - org.apache.grit
>
> This is a reference to the Henzel and Gretel fairy tale. Logging is a lot
> like placing pebbles in a forest except that the forest is the application.
>
> - org.apache.log4j Duh!
> - org.apache.logging JSR47 copy cat.
> - org.apache.log This one is already taken by Peter Donald's
> LogKit in Avalon.
> - org.apache.hlog 'H' for hierarchical.
> - org.apache.moa Moa is a teeny island at the edge of Indonesia.
>
> You are encouraged to make new project name proposals but please do not
> vote yet. We'll vote after new proposals are made. Regards, Ceki
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Eduardo Issao Ito <it...@integrationtech.com.br>.
Jeff Turner wrote:
>> Here are some possible choices:
>>
>> - org.apache.cat
>> - org.apache.pebble
>> - org.apache.grit
>
>
> All missing the crucial word "log". Apache project names are famously
> non-descriptive, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing.
When using Xerces and Xalan, I always have to stop and think what is the
xml parser and what is the xslt processor...
--
Eduardo Issao Ito <it...@integrationtech.com.br>
Integration Technologies Ltda. <http://www.integrationtech.com.br>
Rua Marina Saddi Haidar, 176
04650-050 / Sao Paulo / SP / Brasil
Phone: +55 11 5522-4848 x311
Fax: +55 11 5524-1125
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Eduardo Issao Ito <it...@integrationtech.com.br>.
Jeff Turner wrote:
>> Here are some possible choices:
>>
>> - org.apache.cat
>> - org.apache.pebble
>> - org.apache.grit
>
>
> All missing the crucial word "log". Apache project names are famously
> non-descriptive, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing.
When using Xerces and Xalan, I always have to stop and think what is the
xml parser and what is the xslt processor...
--
Eduardo Issao Ito <it...@integrationtech.com.br>
Integration Technologies Ltda. <http://www.integrationtech.com.br>
Rua Marina Saddi Haidar, 176
04650-050 / Sao Paulo / SP / Brasil
Phone: +55 11 5522-4848 x311
Fax: +55 11 5524-1125
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> The Apache members have argued that the 4J suffix oozes with IBM. Moreover,
bwahaha.. is that the best reason they could come up with? ;)
> as in any case the project code will be placed under "org.apache.XYZ", this
> is absolutely the best time to change the name of the project.
>
> Even if we rename the project, http://www.log4j.org won't disappear and
> will point to the new project at Apache. Thus, the log4j name recognition
> argument, although very convincing at first, does not hold much water (IMHO).
A name change is *guaranteed* to cause confusion, not least because people
won't understand WHY the name changed at all. Most project name-changes
reflect a change in focus, or implementation, or *something* more
substantial than someone's aversion to "IBM-like" names. Now you can leave
a trail pointing "log4j"-seekers to the new project, but.. that's just
harm minimization. Where's the compelling reason to cause the harm in the
first place?
I doubt if the log4c++ and log4p maintainers would support a name-change
either ;)
>
> Here are some possible choices:
>
> - org.apache.cat
> - org.apache.pebble
> - org.apache.grit
All missing the crucial word "log". Apache project names are famously
non-descriptive, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing.
> This is a reference to the Henzel and Gretel fairy tale. Logging is a lot
> like placing pebbles in a forest except that the forest is the application.
Erm. Is it? ;)
--Jeff
> - org.apache.log4j Duh!
> - org.apache.logging JSR47 copy cat.
> - org.apache.log This one is already taken by Peter Donald's
> LogKit in Avalon.
> - org.apache.hlog 'H' for hierarchical.
> - org.apache.moa Moa is a teeny island at the edge of Indonesia.
>
> You are encouraged to make new project name proposals but please do not
> vote yet. We'll vote after new proposals are made. Regards, Ceki
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
Re: What's in a name?
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> The Apache members have argued that the 4J suffix oozes with IBM. Moreover,
bwahaha.. is that the best reason they could come up with? ;)
> as in any case the project code will be placed under "org.apache.XYZ", this
> is absolutely the best time to change the name of the project.
>
> Even if we rename the project, http://www.log4j.org won't disappear and
> will point to the new project at Apache. Thus, the log4j name recognition
> argument, although very convincing at first, does not hold much water (IMHO).
A name change is *guaranteed* to cause confusion, not least because people
won't understand WHY the name changed at all. Most project name-changes
reflect a change in focus, or implementation, or *something* more
substantial than someone's aversion to "IBM-like" names. Now you can leave
a trail pointing "log4j"-seekers to the new project, but.. that's just
harm minimization. Where's the compelling reason to cause the harm in the
first place?
I doubt if the log4c++ and log4p maintainers would support a name-change
either ;)
>
> Here are some possible choices:
>
> - org.apache.cat
> - org.apache.pebble
> - org.apache.grit
All missing the crucial word "log". Apache project names are famously
non-descriptive, but I don't think it's necessarily a good thing.
> This is a reference to the Henzel and Gretel fairy tale. Logging is a lot
> like placing pebbles in a forest except that the forest is the application.
Erm. Is it? ;)
--Jeff
> - org.apache.log4j Duh!
> - org.apache.logging JSR47 copy cat.
> - org.apache.log This one is already taken by Peter Donald's
> LogKit in Avalon.
> - org.apache.hlog 'H' for hierarchical.
> - org.apache.moa Moa is a teeny island at the edge of Indonesia.
>
> You are encouraged to make new project name proposals but please do not
> vote yet. We'll vote after new proposals are made. Regards, Ceki
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: log4j-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: log4j-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>