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Posted to diversity@apache.org by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> on 2019/04/09 22:58:48 UTC
Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Hi folks - I'd like to kick start the revamp of the ASF Committer Diversity
Survey. As agreed in the thread "On Meritocracy" sent to the ComDev lists
[1], we want to revamp the survey in order to inform our Diversity and
Inclusion strategy.
@Sharan - I believe you were the lead on this effort back in 2016, so you
input here would be valuable to help us scope the effort. Here are some
questions to help us do that:
- What's been done to revamp the survey so far? What's the current status?
- What tasks are needed so we revamp the survey?
- What technology was used to apply the survey?
- How does someone gets access to the survey's backend?
Once we have direction in these areas, I can help organize the timeline and
next steps.
In the meantime, I'd love to hear ideas on topics/questions/areas that
weren't included in the 2016 edition [2], with the caveat that we won't be
able to add them all since it would result in either a very different
survey which will be hard to use to measure change or a long survey which
people won't take.
Thanks everyone, looking forward to completing this.
[1]
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
[2]
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
Re: Fwd: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 03/05/2019 09.25, Myrle Krantz wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I asked my marketing professor for feedback on our current survey. You can
> see it in the forwarded email below (shared with his permission).
>
> The context of my question was very gender-oriented and so he answered
> accordingly.
>
> He also has ideas about improving the formulation of our questions which I
> plan to pursue with him but won't be able to get into before June.
>
> What do you all think of splitting the survey up and taking one diversity
> topic at a time? It might also allow us to handle diversity topics more
> delicately that aren't solely US-oriented... (contributors living in
> Western Europe with Arabic or Turkish origins for example).
I think this makes a lot of sense! :). If we are enough people, we might
even split into some working groups and work on different aspects, then
coordinate surveys etc so it doesn't overlap.
One good research is often better than ten waffly ones without depth,
and as Hernan points out, different topics will also both attract
different responders and slightly shape the results (whether intentional
or not). If we cast the net too wide, we may end up with nothing.
Perhaps we should start by discussing which aspects we'd like to
research, then percolate that into groups of topics and look at them
individually.
>
> Best Regards,
> Myrle
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Bruno, Hernan <X>
> Date: Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
> To: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
>
>
> Hello Myrle,
>
>
>
> I wrote that comment very quickly, here is a slightly edited version that
> you can share and that would avoid misunderstandings in this sensitive
> topic. You can share this with my name.
>
> From the survey feedback, I see there is a strong interest in “diversity”
> in general, not just gender diversity. However, I think that a survey of
> this nature needs focus. Not because one kind of diversity is more
> important than other, but because I have a strong intuition that
> respondents would answer differently if asked about gender diversity vs.
> diversity in general. While I believe there are commonalities in the
> discrimination and harassment that non-men endure and those of non-white
> individuals, there are also differences, both in the target respondent,
> contexts, etc. One project cannot uncover all the mysteries of
> discrimination and fix everything. Making a survey about gender imbalance
> will teach you more than making a survey about all the diversity gaps,
> because the respondent would be able to focus, understand the context
> better, and provide more information. My suggestion is that the project
> should be about gender diversity, and explain to the community that other
> imbalances are important and will be dealt with separately.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Prof. Dr. Hernan A. Bruno | University of Cologne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
> *Date: *Friday, 3. May 2019 at 10:21
> *To: *"Bruno, Hernan" <X>
> *Subject: *Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey.
>
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Fwd: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Hey all,
I asked my marketing professor for feedback on our current survey. You can
see it in the forwarded email below (shared with his permission).
The context of my question was very gender-oriented and so he answered
accordingly.
He also has ideas about improving the formulation of our questions which I
plan to pursue with him but won't be able to get into before June.
What do you all think of splitting the survey up and taking one diversity
topic at a time? It might also allow us to handle diversity topics more
delicately that aren't solely US-oriented... (contributors living in
Western Europe with Arabic or Turkish origins for example).
Best Regards,
Myrle
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Bruno, Hernan <X>
Date: Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
To: Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
Hello Myrle,
I wrote that comment very quickly, here is a slightly edited version that
you can share and that would avoid misunderstandings in this sensitive
topic. You can share this with my name.
From the survey feedback, I see there is a strong interest in “diversity”
in general, not just gender diversity. However, I think that a survey of
this nature needs focus. Not because one kind of diversity is more
important than other, but because I have a strong intuition that
respondents would answer differently if asked about gender diversity vs.
diversity in general. While I believe there are commonalities in the
discrimination and harassment that non-men endure and those of non-white
individuals, there are also differences, both in the target respondent,
contexts, etc. One project cannot uncover all the mysteries of
discrimination and fix everything. Making a survey about gender imbalance
will teach you more than making a survey about all the diversity gaps,
because the respondent would be able to focus, understand the context
better, and provide more information. My suggestion is that the project
should be about gender diversity, and explain to the community that other
imbalances are important and will be dealt with separately.
---
Prof. Dr. Hernan A. Bruno | University of Cologne
*From: *Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>
*Date: *Friday, 3. May 2019 at 10:21
*To: *"Bruno, Hernan" <X>
*Subject: *Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey.
Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Gris Cuevas <gr...@apache.org>.
Sharan - thank you so much for sharing this.
I went ahead and started the following Design Doc[1] for the survey. The objective is to give structure and cadence to the survey publishing. I see this as a release and we can approach it as such.
Right now, I need help getting into the survey backend to grab all questions and put them in the "Current Edition Questions" section. We can then start editing based in the feedback Sharan shared, and I can outline activities needed before launching.
Who could volunteer to help me get access to the backend and put questions in the design doc?
Who could help us upload the new questions to the backend?
Thanks,
G
[1] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r9oqJ7Ccm9d6nxWTh6Q6h2PUIemMgR7erIEilxHMkeE/edit?ts=5cc8899a#
On 2019/04/14 10:35:27, Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org> wrote:
> Hi Gris
>
> Please see my responses inline.
>
> On 2019/04/09 22:58:48, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
> > Hi folks - I'd like to kick start the revamp of the ASF Committer Diversity
> > Survey. As agreed in the thread "On Meritocracy" sent to the ComDev lists
> > [1], we want to revamp the survey in order to inform our Diversity and
> > Inclusion strategy.
> >
> > @Sharan - I believe you were the lead on this effort back in 2016, so you
> > input here would be valuable to help us scope the effort. Here are some
> > questions to help us do that:
> > - What's been done to revamp the survey so far? What's the current status?
>
> At this stage not much. I kicked off the idea of re-running and that seemed to get consensus.
> I am involved a little with CHAOSS and they have a Diversity and Inclusion working group https://github.com/chaoss/wg-diversity-inclusion that is in the process of defining what metrics to collect.
>
> I was planning to initially start by doing some research about what others have done and via CHAOSS in October last year I was introduced to Emma Irwin from Mozilla and also Amy Marrich from OpenStack who were involved with their diversity and inclusion efforts. Links to their stuff is here
>
> https://s.apache.org/OVQE
> https://s.apache.org/sAoD
>
> We were all planning to setup a call to discuss things but that didn’t happen as some personal things came up that I needed to focus on. So the current status is that there has been no movement and if someone here wants to pick it up then that’s fine.
>
> > - What tasks are needed so we revamp the survey?
>
> To revamp the survey, some work probably needs to be done on what people want the new survey to contain. I got a lot of feedback around the wording of the original questions and some of the responses we received gave ideas for potential improvements. The gender and ethnic origin questions were the most difficult to formulate so changing these will depend how or if you want to do any comparisons with the first survey.
>
> Also a couple of questions were added that were probably not so much diversity related (eg the one about finding information...)
>
> > - What technology was used to apply the survey?
>
> The survey was done using Survey Monkey. I created an account and we had to pay to upgrade it to be able to have the potential of all 5800 committer responses. That subscription has expired now so if we needed to do it again, we’d need the upgrade.
>
> When we ran the survey the Infra team helped us setup a link so that you needed to login using your Apache ID to access the survey and prove you were a committer, then the Apache ID was dropped an nothing was collected about the person responding.
>
>
> > - How does someone gets access to the survey's backend?
>
> To get access to the backend, you will need the login details to the Survey Monkey account which is managed by the ComDev PMC. I think this access this data needs to be carefully managed and I see you have some ComDev PMC people on this list so they should be able to get access to these credentials.
>
> When we ran the survey we told everyone that
> “The data collected will be used to generate consolidated and aggregated statistics for the Apache Community Development team and the Apache Software Foundation. These details may be published as part of Apache presentations and reports, and made publicly available.”
> The survey was anonymous and even so, not everyone gave their permission to publish anything related to their comments so I ended up paraphrasing it so that people could get the general idea.
>
> We received a lot of feedback which I tried to consolidate into various areas. See below for the feedback we received about Diversity in general and potential survey improvements.
>
> https://s.apache.org/zVwR
> https://s.apache.org/iotN
> https://s.apache.org/dDNn
>
> We did follow up the PMCs of individual projects that were explicitly mentioned to ensure they were aware of the feedback.
>
> I hope this answers your questions and if you need any more information then please let me know.
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
> >
> > Once we have direction in these areas, I can help organize the timeline and
> > next steps.
> >
> > In the meantime, I'd love to hear ideas on topics/questions/areas that
> > weren't included in the 2016 edition [2], with the caveat that we won't be
> > able to add them all since it would result in either a very different
> > survey which will be hard to use to measure change or a long survey which
> > people won't take.
> >
> > Thanks everyone, looking forward to completing this.
> >
> > [1]
> > https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> > [2]
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> >
>
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Sharan Foga <sh...@apache.org>.
Hi Gris
Please see my responses inline.
On 2019/04/09 22:58:48, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
> Hi folks - I'd like to kick start the revamp of the ASF Committer Diversity
> Survey. As agreed in the thread "On Meritocracy" sent to the ComDev lists
> [1], we want to revamp the survey in order to inform our Diversity and
> Inclusion strategy.
>
> @Sharan - I believe you were the lead on this effort back in 2016, so you
> input here would be valuable to help us scope the effort. Here are some
> questions to help us do that:
> - What's been done to revamp the survey so far? What's the current status?
At this stage not much. I kicked off the idea of re-running and that seemed to get consensus.
I am involved a little with CHAOSS and they have a Diversity and Inclusion working group https://github.com/chaoss/wg-diversity-inclusion that is in the process of defining what metrics to collect.
I was planning to initially start by doing some research about what others have done and via CHAOSS in October last year I was introduced to Emma Irwin from Mozilla and also Amy Marrich from OpenStack who were involved with their diversity and inclusion efforts. Links to their stuff is here
https://s.apache.org/OVQE
https://s.apache.org/sAoD
We were all planning to setup a call to discuss things but that didn’t happen as some personal things came up that I needed to focus on. So the current status is that there has been no movement and if someone here wants to pick it up then that’s fine.
> - What tasks are needed so we revamp the survey?
To revamp the survey, some work probably needs to be done on what people want the new survey to contain. I got a lot of feedback around the wording of the original questions and some of the responses we received gave ideas for potential improvements. The gender and ethnic origin questions were the most difficult to formulate so changing these will depend how or if you want to do any comparisons with the first survey.
Also a couple of questions were added that were probably not so much diversity related (eg the one about finding information...)
> - What technology was used to apply the survey?
The survey was done using Survey Monkey. I created an account and we had to pay to upgrade it to be able to have the potential of all 5800 committer responses. That subscription has expired now so if we needed to do it again, we’d need the upgrade.
When we ran the survey the Infra team helped us setup a link so that you needed to login using your Apache ID to access the survey and prove you were a committer, then the Apache ID was dropped an nothing was collected about the person responding.
> - How does someone gets access to the survey's backend?
To get access to the backend, you will need the login details to the Survey Monkey account which is managed by the ComDev PMC. I think this access this data needs to be carefully managed and I see you have some ComDev PMC people on this list so they should be able to get access to these credentials.
When we ran the survey we told everyone that
“The data collected will be used to generate consolidated and aggregated statistics for the Apache Community Development team and the Apache Software Foundation. These details may be published as part of Apache presentations and reports, and made publicly available.”
The survey was anonymous and even so, not everyone gave their permission to publish anything related to their comments so I ended up paraphrasing it so that people could get the general idea.
We received a lot of feedback which I tried to consolidate into various areas. See below for the feedback we received about Diversity in general and potential survey improvements.
https://s.apache.org/zVwR
https://s.apache.org/iotN
https://s.apache.org/dDNn
We did follow up the PMCs of individual projects that were explicitly mentioned to ensure they were aware of the feedback.
I hope this answers your questions and if you need any more information then please let me know.
Thanks
Sharan
>
> Once we have direction in these areas, I can help organize the timeline and
> next steps.
>
> In the meantime, I'd love to hear ideas on topics/questions/areas that
> weren't included in the 2016 edition [2], with the caveat that we won't be
> able to add them all since it would result in either a very different
> survey which will be hard to use to measure change or a long survey which
> people won't take.
>
> Thanks everyone, looking forward to completing this.
>
> [1]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> [2]
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Sharan F <sh...@apache.org>.
Hi All
Ack. Will aim to respond to the points requested over the weekend unless
someone else beats me to it.
Thanks
Sharan
On Wed, 10 Apr 2019, 00:59 Griselda Cuevas, <gr...@google.com> wrote:
> Hi folks - I'd like to kick start the revamp of the ASF Committer
> Diversity Survey. As agreed in the thread "On Meritocracy" sent to the
> ComDev lists [1], we want to revamp the survey in order to inform our
> Diversity and Inclusion strategy.
>
> @Sharan - I believe you were the lead on this effort back in 2016, so you
> input here would be valuable to help us scope the effort. Here are some
> questions to help us do that:
> - What's been done to revamp the survey so far? What's the current status?
> - What tasks are needed so we revamp the survey?
> - What technology was used to apply the survey?
> - How does someone gets access to the survey's backend?
>
> Once we have direction in these areas, I can help organize the timeline
> and next steps.
>
> In the meantime, I'd love to hear ideas on topics/questions/areas that
> weren't included in the 2016 edition [2], with the caveat that we won't be
> able to add them all since it would result in either a very different
> survey which will be hard to use to measure change or a long survey which
> people won't take.
>
> Thanks everyone, looking forward to completing this.
>
> [1]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> [2]
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>
Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Gris Cuevas <gr...@apache.org>.
Hi folks - it's been almost 3 weeks since I kicked off this thread, so I think we should keep moving this forward. If you're interested in collaborating in the launch, please follow this Jira component [1]. Here are the steps we need to work on:
1) Incorporate the feedback received in this thread into a new version of the survey. (I took this on)
2) Socialize the draft with folks from the CHAOSS team. I want us to not reinvent the wheel, but instead leverage what the industry is measuring to have a benchmark and support from other groups. Happy to pass this on to a volunteer who wants to be the liaison with the CHAOSS team.
3) Socialize a finalized version to get input/thoughts in this mailing list. (Need volunteer)
4) We'll move to launch mode (need 1 volunteer, can be the same as above volunteers)
If you want to volunteer, please open a Jira issue under the demographic survey component and assign it to you and create a comment and mention me. Also let us know in this thread you're working on it.
Thanks!
G
[1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/DI-4?jql=project%20%3D%20DI
P.S. If you have any burning thoughts, comments, contributions, etc. Please leave them as comments in this Jira issue [2]. I will stop monitoring this thread for additions.
[2] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/DI-4
On 2019/04/09 22:58:48, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
> Hi folks - I'd like to kick start the revamp of the ASF Committer Diversity
> Survey. As agreed in the thread "On Meritocracy" sent to the ComDev lists
> [1], we want to revamp the survey in order to inform our Diversity and
> Inclusion strategy.
>
> @Sharan - I believe you were the lead on this effort back in 2016, so you
> input here would be valuable to help us scope the effort. Here are some
> questions to help us do that:
> - What's been done to revamp the survey so far? What's the current status?
> - What tasks are needed so we revamp the survey?
> - What technology was used to apply the survey?
> - How does someone gets access to the survey's backend?
>
> Once we have direction in these areas, I can help organize the timeline and
> next steps.
>
> In the meantime, I'd love to hear ideas on topics/questions/areas that
> weren't included in the 2016 edition [2], with the caveat that we won't be
> able to add them all since it would result in either a very different
> survey which will be hard to use to measure change or a long survey which
> people won't take.
>
> Thanks everyone, looking forward to completing this.
>
> [1]
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> [2]
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
> Hi fol
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@consensys.net>.
This may be an uncomfortable issue to bring up, but, in general, we are not
an "outreach" organization. That is, our charter is not to foster open source,
nor do direct outreach, etc... it is to create open source software for the
public good.
Now, OF COURSE, these sorts of efforts are part of growing and maintaining
and nurturing a community, which is the key way of ensuring that the open
source software is produced and maintained.
The only reason why I bring this up is that it is unfair and somewhat disingenuous
if we try to compare ourselves with such entities/efforts as GSOC, or OutReachy,
because those sorts of efforts are their *prime* reason for existence. We should
take clues from them, but they are not the exact models that we should follow.
Just making sure that we all are on the same page as this is concerned. Same
as with ApacheCon, for example. The ASF is not a conference producer; we do
so in order to help our projects and help us fulfill our mission. We need to treat
all such efforts similarly, IMHO.
> On Apr 14, 2019, at 1:02 AM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Understanding diversity in potential committers is important, specially to
> know if efforts such as outreach, mentoring and "grooming" are the source
> of our low diversity. However, I believe this is out of scope for a *Committer
> Diversity Survey*.
>
> Measuring the funnel is *very *important so it should happen in its own
> "tool", it could be via a separate survey (for the right audience), a
> qualitative research, interviews, etc. I'd recommend we keep the topic in
> the radar but pause the effort to include it in this survey so we can stay
> focused.
>
> I'm forking the conversation about measuring diversity in our growth funnel
> and understanding non-code contributions to a new thread called "Areas
> where we want to measure diversity, equity & inclusion".
>
> While we wait for more info from Sharan, I'd like to suggest we document
> the objective of the committer survey in the following design document:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r9oqJ7Ccm9d6nxWTh6Q6h2PUIemMgR7erIEilxHMkeE/edit#
> I'll leave the doc open until Wednesday so we call it a v1.0 by then.
>
> Here's one action item I'd like to put for someone to take:
> We need a new wiki page for Diversity & Inclusion, I'd like to add the v1.0
> of the committer diversity survey design doc to it, who could take on this?
> Jira - (DI-3):
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/DI/issues/DI-3?filter=allopenissues
> (This need a bit more work like figuring out where to create the page,
> create it and share it here)
>
> Thank you so much for the input, let's keep the ideas for the survey
> flowing!
> Hope everyone is enjoying the weekend,
> G
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 at 18:15, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 4/13/2019 11:02 AM, Joan Touzet wrote:
>>> On 2019-04-13 2:37 a.m., Dinesh Joshi wrote:
>>>> Rich, Myrle – both of you made great points. I especially think non-code
>>>> contributions are critical and generally go unrecognized. They are
>>>> equally as important.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding gathering data about individuals being nominated, perhaps
>>>> sending a survey to the PMC Chairs to gather the stats, would that be
>>>> reasonable? I am just trying brainstorm an effective way to gather data
>>>> around who is being left out and associated reasons.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Dinesh,
>>>
>>> I like the idea, but the devil is in the details.
>>>
>>> PMCs tend to be overloaded with responsibilities already. Unless we
>>> provide them something well-packaged and easy to run, we won't get any
>>> data this way.
>>>
>>> You'll also end up with serious selection bias; we'll hear back from the
>>> PMCs who are motivated to tell us about specific people, or who are
>>> idle, or who have smaller communities (because it's easy to get your
>>> hands around who all there is).
>>>
>>> I'm not saying this isn't doable, but I am having a hard time thinking
>>> of a way that we can get a good sample this way.
>>>
>>> -Joan
>>
>> Is the intent to have the PMC supply the information, or to ask the
>> nominee to complete a survey?
>>
>> If the former, there may not be much information. I know and care about
>> a nominee's contributions, but do not typically know their gender or
>> ethnicity. I may be able to guess whether they identify as male or
>> female from their name, but that is limited by my limited knowledge of
>> non-English naming practices, and many English names are ambiguous.
>>
>> If the latter, we would get into a situation in which people would know
>> they were being discussed because of getting a survey invitation.
>>
>> How about sending survey requests to randomly selected people who are
>> active on project mailing lists?
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dinesh
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:32 PM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Your suggestion of surveying non-committer Github contributors
>>>>>> certainly
>>>>>> has merit, but, having tried to gather that kind of data in the past
>>>>>> (ie, actual contact info for contributors to an open source project,
>>>>>> based on Github names), it's not particularly easy, as even the people
>>>>>> that list their email address on Github (which is not everyone, by a
>>>>>> long shot) consider it pretty spammy to receive surveys.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, focusing on github contributions would leave out people who
>>>>> provide
>>>>> customer support. And documentation and graphics might not compare
>>>>> appropriately in size with code contributions either. But non-code
>>>>> contributors is one of our biggest problem-areas IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Myrle
>>>>
>>>>
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 14/04/2019 06:02, Griselda Cuevas wrote:
<snip/>
> Here's one action item I'd like to put for someone to take:
> We need a new wiki page for Diversity & Inclusion, I'd like to add the v1.0
> of the committer diversity survey design doc to it, who could take on this?
> Jira - (DI-3):
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/DI/issues/DI-3?filter=allopenissues
> (This need a bit more work like figuring out where to create the page,
> create it and share it here)
The wiki should be in place now.
Login name is your Apache ID (e.g. for me it is "markt") and password is
your LDAP password (that you set up at id.apache.org when your Apache
account was created).
Let me know if you have any issues adding the survey design doc.
Mark
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Apr 14, 2019, at 1:02 AM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> Understanding diversity in potential committers is important, specially to
> know if efforts such as outreach, mentoring and "grooming" are the source
> of our low diversity.
Agreed.
This may be an uncomfortable issue to bring up, but, in general, we are not
an "outreach" organization. That is, our charter is not to foster open source,
nor do direct outreach, etc... it is to create open source software for the
public good.
Now, OF COURSE, these sorts of efforts are part of growing and maintaining
and nurturing a community, which is the key way of ensuring that the open
source software is produced and maintained.
The only reason why I bring this up is that it is unfair and somewhat disingenuous
if we try to compare ourselves with such entities/efforts as GSOC, or OutReachy,
because those sorts of efforts are their *prime* reason for existence. We should
take clues from them, but they are not the exact models that we should follow.
Just making sure that we all are on the same page as this is concerned. Same
as with ApacheCon, for example. The ASF is not a conference producer; we do
so in order to help our projects and help us fulfill our mission. We need to treat
all such efforts similarly, IMHO.
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
Hi All,
Understanding diversity in potential committers is important, specially to
know if efforts such as outreach, mentoring and "grooming" are the source
of our low diversity. However, I believe this is out of scope for a *Committer
Diversity Survey*.
Measuring the funnel is *very *important so it should happen in its own
"tool", it could be via a separate survey (for the right audience), a
qualitative research, interviews, etc. I'd recommend we keep the topic in
the radar but pause the effort to include it in this survey so we can stay
focused.
I'm forking the conversation about measuring diversity in our growth funnel
and understanding non-code contributions to a new thread called "Areas
where we want to measure diversity, equity & inclusion".
While we wait for more info from Sharan, I'd like to suggest we document
the objective of the committer survey in the following design document:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r9oqJ7Ccm9d6nxWTh6Q6h2PUIemMgR7erIEilxHMkeE/edit#
I'll leave the doc open until Wednesday so we call it a v1.0 by then.
Here's one action item I'd like to put for someone to take:
We need a new wiki page for Diversity & Inclusion, I'd like to add the v1.0
of the committer diversity survey design doc to it, who could take on this?
Jira - (DI-3):
https://issues.apache.org/jira/projects/DI/issues/DI-3?filter=allopenissues
(This need a bit more work like figuring out where to create the page,
create it and share it here)
Thank you so much for the input, let's keep the ideas for the survey
flowing!
Hope everyone is enjoying the weekend,
G
On Sat, 13 Apr 2019 at 18:15, Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 4/13/2019 11:02 AM, Joan Touzet wrote:
> > On 2019-04-13 2:37 a.m., Dinesh Joshi wrote:
> >> Rich, Myrle – both of you made great points. I especially think non-code
> >> contributions are critical and generally go unrecognized. They are
> >> equally as important.
> >>
> >> Regarding gathering data about individuals being nominated, perhaps
> >> sending a survey to the PMC Chairs to gather the stats, would that be
> >> reasonable? I am just trying brainstorm an effective way to gather data
> >> around who is being left out and associated reasons.
> >
> >
> > Hi Dinesh,
> >
> > I like the idea, but the devil is in the details.
> >
> > PMCs tend to be overloaded with responsibilities already. Unless we
> > provide them something well-packaged and easy to run, we won't get any
> > data this way.
> >
> > You'll also end up with serious selection bias; we'll hear back from the
> > PMCs who are motivated to tell us about specific people, or who are
> > idle, or who have smaller communities (because it's easy to get your
> > hands around who all there is).
> >
> > I'm not saying this isn't doable, but I am having a hard time thinking
> > of a way that we can get a good sample this way.
> >
> > -Joan
>
> Is the intent to have the PMC supply the information, or to ask the
> nominee to complete a survey?
>
> If the former, there may not be much information. I know and care about
> a nominee's contributions, but do not typically know their gender or
> ethnicity. I may be able to guess whether they identify as male or
> female from their name, but that is limited by my limited knowledge of
> non-English naming practices, and many English names are ambiguous.
>
> If the latter, we would get into a situation in which people would know
> they were being discussed because of getting a survey invitation.
>
> How about sending survey requests to randomly selected people who are
> active on project mailing lists?
>
> >
> >>
> >> Dinesh
> >>
> >>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:32 PM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Your suggestion of surveying non-committer Github contributors
> >>>> certainly
> >>>> has merit, but, having tried to gather that kind of data in the past
> >>>> (ie, actual contact info for contributors to an open source project,
> >>>> based on Github names), it's not particularly easy, as even the people
> >>>> that list their email address on Github (which is not everyone, by a
> >>>> long shot) consider it pretty spammy to receive surveys.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Also, focusing on github contributions would leave out people who
> >>> provide
> >>> customer support. And documentation and graphics might not compare
> >>> appropriately in size with code contributions either. But non-code
> >>> contributors is one of our biggest problem-areas IMHO.
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Myrle
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
On 4/13/2019 11:02 AM, Joan Touzet wrote:
> On 2019-04-13 2:37 a.m., Dinesh Joshi wrote:
>> Rich, Myrle – both of you made great points. I especially think non-code
>> contributions are critical and generally go unrecognized. They are
>> equally as important.
>>
>> Regarding gathering data about individuals being nominated, perhaps
>> sending a survey to the PMC Chairs to gather the stats, would that be
>> reasonable? I am just trying brainstorm an effective way to gather data
>> around who is being left out and associated reasons.
>
>
> Hi Dinesh,
>
> I like the idea, but the devil is in the details.
>
> PMCs tend to be overloaded with responsibilities already. Unless we
> provide them something well-packaged and easy to run, we won't get any
> data this way.
>
> You'll also end up with serious selection bias; we'll hear back from the
> PMCs who are motivated to tell us about specific people, or who are
> idle, or who have smaller communities (because it's easy to get your
> hands around who all there is).
>
> I'm not saying this isn't doable, but I am having a hard time thinking
> of a way that we can get a good sample this way.
>
> -Joan
Is the intent to have the PMC supply the information, or to ask the
nominee to complete a survey?
If the former, there may not be much information. I know and care about
a nominee's contributions, but do not typically know their gender or
ethnicity. I may be able to guess whether they identify as male or
female from their name, but that is limited by my limited knowledge of
non-English naming practices, and many English names are ambiguous.
If the latter, we would get into a situation in which people would know
they were being discussed because of getting a survey invitation.
How about sending survey requests to randomly selected people who are
active on project mailing lists?
>
>>
>> Dinesh
>>
>>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:32 PM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Your suggestion of surveying non-committer Github contributors
>>>> certainly
>>>> has merit, but, having tried to gather that kind of data in the past
>>>> (ie, actual contact info for contributors to an open source project,
>>>> based on Github names), it's not particularly easy, as even the people
>>>> that list their email address on Github (which is not everyone, by a
>>>> long shot) consider it pretty spammy to receive surveys.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Also, focusing on github contributions would leave out people who
>>> provide
>>> customer support. And documentation and graphics might not compare
>>> appropriately in size with code contributions either. But non-code
>>> contributors is one of our biggest problem-areas IMHO.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Myrle
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Joan Touzet <wo...@apache.org>.
On 2019-04-13 2:37 a.m., Dinesh Joshi wrote:
> Rich, Myrle – both of you made great points. I especially think non-code
> contributions are critical and generally go unrecognized. They are
> equally as important.
>
> Regarding gathering data about individuals being nominated, perhaps
> sending a survey to the PMC Chairs to gather the stats, would that be
> reasonable? I am just trying brainstorm an effective way to gather data
> around who is being left out and associated reasons.
Hi Dinesh,
I like the idea, but the devil is in the details.
PMCs tend to be overloaded with responsibilities already. Unless we
provide them something well-packaged and easy to run, we won't get any
data this way.
You'll also end up with serious selection bias; we'll hear back from the
PMCs who are motivated to tell us about specific people, or who are
idle, or who have smaller communities (because it's easy to get your
hands around who all there is).
I'm not saying this isn't doable, but I am having a hard time thinking
of a way that we can get a good sample this way.
-Joan
>
> Dinesh
>
>> On Apr 12, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:32 PM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Your suggestion of surveying non-committer Github contributors certainly
>>> has merit, but, having tried to gather that kind of data in the past
>>> (ie, actual contact info for contributors to an open source project,
>>> based on Github names), it's not particularly easy, as even the people
>>> that list their email address on Github (which is not everyone, by a
>>> long shot) consider it pretty spammy to receive surveys.
>>>
>>
>> Also, focusing on github contributions would leave out people who provide
>> customer support. And documentation and graphics might not compare
>> appropriately in size with code contributions either. But non-code
>> contributors is one of our biggest problem-areas IMHO.
>>
>> Best,
>> Myrle
>
>
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Dinesh Joshi <di...@yahoo.com.INVALID>.
Rich, Myrle – both of you made great points. I especially think non-code
contributions are critical and generally go unrecognized. They are
equally as important.
Regarding gathering data about individuals being nominated, perhaps
sending a survey to the PMC Chairs to gather the stats, would that be
reasonable? I am just trying brainstorm an effective way to gather data
around who is being left out and associated reasons.
Dinesh
> On Apr 12, 2019, at 6:22 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:32 PM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
>> Your suggestion of surveying non-committer Github contributors certainly
>> has merit, but, having tried to gather that kind of data in the past
>> (ie, actual contact info for contributors to an open source project,
>> based on Github names), it's not particularly easy, as even the people
>> that list their email address on Github (which is not everyone, by a
>> long shot) consider it pretty spammy to receive surveys.
>>
>
> Also, focusing on github contributions would leave out people who provide
> customer support. And documentation and graphics might not compare
> appropriately in size with code contributions either. But non-code
> contributors is one of our biggest problem-areas IMHO.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 3:32 PM Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> Your suggestion of surveying non-committer Github contributors certainly
> has merit, but, having tried to gather that kind of data in the past
> (ie, actual contact info for contributors to an open source project,
> based on Github names), it's not particularly easy, as even the people
> that list their email address on Github (which is not everyone, by a
> long shot) consider it pretty spammy to receive surveys.
>
Also, focusing on github contributions would leave out people who provide
customer support. And documentation and graphics might not compare
appropriately in size with code contributions either. But non-code
contributors is one of our biggest problem-areas IMHO.
Best,
Myrle
Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
On 4/10/19 5:39 AM, Dinesh Joshi wrote:
> I have a dumb question, please bear with me. Will this survey reveal answers to the following questions –
>
> 1. How diverse are the contributors that are not committers yet?
> 2. How diverse are the contributors being nominated for committership?
I cannot think of any way that we could access that data. Nominations
happen on private lists, and are private. The contributors themselves do
not know that they are being considered. We could not survey them while
they were under consideration without telling them that they are under
consideration.
Your suggestion of surveying non-committer Github contributors certainly
has merit, but, having tried to gather that kind of data in the past
(ie, actual contact info for contributors to an open source project,
based on Github names), it's not particularly easy, as even the people
that list their email address on Github (which is not everyone, by a
long shot) consider it pretty spammy to receive surveys.
>> On Apr 10, 2019, at 2:15 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> Here's the last time this was discussed in 2018:
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/d286be73692809e9fc71e90970b43319b36c4588b17eeb23fecc132b@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
>>
>> There are some good suggestions on that thread.
>>
>> Best,
>> Myrle
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 12:59 AM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks - I'd like to kick start the revamp of the ASF Committer Diversity
>>> Survey. As agreed in the thread "On Meritocracy" sent to the ComDev lists
>>> [1], we want to revamp the survey in order to inform our Diversity and
>>> Inclusion strategy.
>>>
>>> @Sharan - I believe you were the lead on this effort back in 2016, so you
>>> input here would be valuable to help us scope the effort. Here are some
>>> questions to help us do that:
>>> - What's been done to revamp the survey so far? What's the current status?
>>> - What tasks are needed so we revamp the survey?
>>> - What technology was used to apply the survey?
>>> - How does someone gets access to the survey's backend?
>>>
>>> Once we have direction in these areas, I can help organize the timeline and
>>> next steps.
>>>
>>> In the meantime, I'd love to hear ideas on topics/questions/areas that
>>> weren't included in the 2016 edition [2], with the caveat that we won't be
>>> able to add them all since it would result in either a very different
>>> survey which will be hard to use to measure change or a long survey which
>>> people won't take.
>>>
>>> Thanks everyone, looking forward to completing this.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>>
>>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
>>> [2]
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>>>
>
>
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>
--
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
>
> > I think there might be better ways to understand the funnel, using
> Kibble.
>
> What is Kibble? I am not familiar with it.
>
https://kibble.apache.org/ Go play with it. It is the best way to
understand it. There's a live demo under demo.kibble... that already has
data loaded for several projects.
Best,
Myrle
Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Dinesh Joshi <di...@yahoo.com.INVALID>.
> On Apr 10, 2019, at 2:45 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how to reach contributors who are not committers unless we're
> talking about mailing the dev lists of all the projects. People have done
> this before, and the backlash it generates is larger each time. Made worse
> by the fact that some of those surveys have been very poorly designed. And
> even if we were to do something like this, we'd have the problem of
> self-selection to deal with. Which we already have for committers, but my
> gut tells me it'd be worse for contributors.
One could look at the git commits and determine who is or isn't a committer, if the projects are good about separating author from committer in their git commits. Not sure if all projects follow it?
> I think there might be better ways to understand the funnel, using Kibble.
What is Kibble? I am not familiar with it.
Dinesh
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:39 AM Dinesh Joshi
<di...@yahoo.com.invalid> wrote:
> I have a dumb question, please bear with me. Will this survey reveal
> answers to the following questions –
>
> 1. How diverse are the contributors that are not committers yet?
>
Unless it is changed, no it will not. Only committers were surveyed the
last time.
> 2. How diverse are the contributors being nominated for committership?
>
Maybe.
In its current form, Question #1 asks: "How long have you been involved
with any Apache project community?" Other questions are designed to "suss
out" diversity. Subdividing answers based on the first question could
provide this information if we get enough respondents to be statistically
significant.
> I think, that will help understanding the funnel. Comments?
>
I'm not sure how to reach contributors who are not committers unless we're
talking about mailing the dev lists of all the projects. People have done
this before, and the backlash it generates is larger each time. Made worse
by the fact that some of those surveys have been very poorly designed. And
even if we were to do something like this, we'd have the problem of
self-selection to deal with. Which we already have for committers, but my
gut tells me it'd be worse for contributors.
I think there might be better ways to understand the funnel, using Kibble.
Best,
Myrle
Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Dinesh Joshi <di...@yahoo.com.INVALID>.
I have a dumb question, please bear with me. Will this survey reveal answers to the following questions –
1. How diverse are the contributors that are not committers yet?
2. How diverse are the contributors being nominated for committership?
I think, that will help understanding the funnel. Comments?
Dinesh
> On Apr 10, 2019, at 2:15 AM, Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Here's the last time this was discussed in 2018:
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/d286be73692809e9fc71e90970b43319b36c4588b17eeb23fecc132b@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
>
> There are some good suggestions on that thread.
>
> Best,
> Myrle
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 12:59 AM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks - I'd like to kick start the revamp of the ASF Committer Diversity
>> Survey. As agreed in the thread "On Meritocracy" sent to the ComDev lists
>> [1], we want to revamp the survey in order to inform our Diversity and
>> Inclusion strategy.
>>
>> @Sharan - I believe you were the lead on this effort back in 2016, so you
>> input here would be valuable to help us scope the effort. Here are some
>> questions to help us do that:
>> - What's been done to revamp the survey so far? What's the current status?
>> - What tasks are needed so we revamp the survey?
>> - What technology was used to apply the survey?
>> - How does someone gets access to the survey's backend?
>>
>> Once we have direction in these areas, I can help organize the timeline and
>> next steps.
>>
>> In the meantime, I'd love to hear ideas on topics/questions/areas that
>> weren't included in the 2016 edition [2], with the caveat that we won't be
>> able to add them all since it would result in either a very different
>> survey which will be hard to use to measure change or a long survey which
>> people won't take.
>>
>> Thanks everyone, looking forward to completing this.
>>
>> [1]
>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
>> [2]
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>>
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Re: Revamping the ASF Committer Diversity Survey
Posted by Myrle Krantz <my...@apache.org>.
Here's the last time this was discussed in 2018:
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/d286be73692809e9fc71e90970b43319b36c4588b17eeb23fecc132b@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
There are some good suggestions on that thread.
Best,
Myrle
On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 12:59 AM Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.invalid>
wrote:
> Hi folks - I'd like to kick start the revamp of the ASF Committer Diversity
> Survey. As agreed in the thread "On Meritocracy" sent to the ComDev lists
> [1], we want to revamp the survey in order to inform our Diversity and
> Inclusion strategy.
>
> @Sharan - I believe you were the lead on this effort back in 2016, so you
> input here would be valuable to help us scope the effort. Here are some
> questions to help us do that:
> - What's been done to revamp the survey so far? What's the current status?
> - What tasks are needed so we revamp the survey?
> - What technology was used to apply the survey?
> - How does someone gets access to the survey's backend?
>
> Once we have direction in these areas, I can help organize the timeline and
> next steps.
>
> In the meantime, I'd love to hear ideas on topics/questions/areas that
> weren't included in the 2016 edition [2], with the caveat that we won't be
> able to add them all since it would result in either a very different
> survey which will be hard to use to measure change or a long survey which
> people won't take.
>
> Thanks everyone, looking forward to completing this.
>
> [1]
>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> [2]
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/COMDEV/ASF+Committer+Diversity+Survey+-+2016
>