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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> on 2014/09/26 05:56:36 UTC
Code Donations and Committer Righs
I'd like to know: if a code base is donated to Apache under a Software
Grant, do most projects grant committer rights to the code authors at the
same time or do most projects require that the donors submit patches as
other non-committers normally do?
Thanks,
-Alex
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Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by Branko Čibej <br...@apache.org>.
On 26.09.2014 20:03, jan i wrote:
> On 26 September 2014 19:23, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
>
>> Just like Ross, the following constitutes my personal opinion
>> (that has been formed over the years of maintaining complex
>> code bases written "before my time"):
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
>> <Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>> OK. I will give you my personal opinion since you are seeking to drive
>> consensus...
>>> I would say that if the code is of sufficient quality and relevance for
>> the project to want
>>> to accept it then contributors should be given commit rights.
>> I would even go further than this: to me a brand new code donation
>> without anybody donating that code willing to sign up to maintain
>> it (at least for as long as it takes for others to ramp up) spells orphaned
>> code.
>>
>> IOW, for sizable brand new contribution the commit rights of somebody
>> familiar with the code shouldn't be a question, but more of a prerequisite
>> to actually accepting that contribution in the first place.
>>
> my personal opion is a big +1 to not accepting bigger contributions if the
> programmers (or at least part of them) comes along. Getting new code
> without people that understand it deeply, is really asking for trouble.
I tend to agree. However, there's more than one aspect to the issue:
your typical ASF committer does not only contribute and maintain code;
she also participates in the process of managing the project and
community. The more so on projects that do not make a difference between
committer and PMC member.
It may not always be the case that someone who makes a software grant is
also aware of how the project and community work. On the other hand, one
would expect that the existing community members are able to help such
new contributors over the initial hurdles of adapting to the (drumroll)
Apache Way.
So ... it's essentially a toss-up, but personally I'd prefer
inclusiveness over control-freakness.
-- Brane
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Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
For more context, there has been only one prior donation from
non-committers to Flex and that was completed only 26 days ago. All but
one other donation has come from Adobe and are parts of existing Flex
products that Adobe provided before the transition to Apache.
-Alex
On 9/28/14 9:51 AM, "Justin Mclean" <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>For some context the Flex project has has several donations that have
>ended up get little or no involvement from the community or the people
>who donated them after donation. For most projects donations (once a
>project is top level) are reasonably rare and from what I can see most
>donations come for people already involved in the community. If someone
>is involved it should take almost no time for them be offered committer
>ship after donation, but with automatically awarding committership to
>people you don't really know if they will continue to be involved or not.
>For some projects automatic committership may work, but given Flex's
>history with donations it's probably not suitable choice of action.
>
>Thanks,
>Justin
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Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
>I¹m also not sure what history you mean. The only donation that I know of
>that there was no follow through was the Swiz donation.
Also for context: The Swiz folks never submitted the software grant so
technically it hasn't been donated.
-Alex
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Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by Harbs <ha...@gmail.com>.
On Sep 28, 2014, at 7:51 PM, Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> For some projects automatic committership may work, but given Flex's history with donations it's probably not suitable choice of action.
I don’t see what’s different about Flex. The rationale to give them committer rights is to increase the probability that the code will be maintained after the donation. If the new committer does not follow through, there’s no harm done.
I’m also not sure what history you mean. The only donation that I know of that there was no follow through was the Swiz donation.
Harbs
Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
For some context the Flex project has has several donations that have ended up get little or no involvement from the community or the people who donated them after donation. For most projects donations (once a project is top level) are reasonably rare and from what I can see most donations come for people already involved in the community. If someone is involved it should take almost no time for them be offered committer ship after donation, but with automatically awarding committership to people you don't really know if they will continue to be involved or not. For some projects automatic committership may work, but given Flex's history with donations it's probably not suitable choice of action.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 28 September 2014 15:24, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 26 September 2014 19:03, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On 26 September 2014 19:23, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just like Ross, the following constitutes my personal opinion
> >> (that has been formed over the years of maintaining complex
> >> code bases written "before my time"):
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
> >> <Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> > OK. I will give you my personal opinion since you are seeking to drive
> >> consensus...
> >> >
> >> > I would say that if the code is of sufficient quality and relevance
> for
> >> the project to want
> >> > to accept it then contributors should be given commit rights.
> >>
> >> I would even go further than this: to me a brand new code donation
> >> without anybody donating that code willing to sign up to maintain
> >> it (at least for as long as it takes for others to ramp up) spells
> orphaned
> >> code.
> >>
> >> IOW, for sizable brand new contribution the commit rights of somebody
> >> familiar with the code shouldn't be a question, but more of a
> prerequisite
> >> to actually accepting that contribution in the first place.
> >>
> > my personal opion is a big +1 to not accepting bigger contributions if
> the
> > programmers (or at least part of them) comes along.
>
> I assume you meant:
>
> "unless the ... comes along"
> or
> "if the ... do not come along"
>
Thanks sebb for catching that typo. Yes I meant:
"my personal opion is a big +1 to not accepting bigger contributions if the
programmers (or at least part of them) do not come along."
thanks
jan i.
>
> > Getting new code
> > without people that understand it deeply, is really asking for trouble.
> >
> > rgds
> > jan I.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Thanks,
> >> Roman.
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
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Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 26 September 2014 19:03, jan i <ja...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 26 September 2014 19:23, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
>
>> Just like Ross, the following constitutes my personal opinion
>> (that has been formed over the years of maintaining complex
>> code bases written "before my time"):
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
>> <Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> > OK. I will give you my personal opinion since you are seeking to drive
>> consensus...
>> >
>> > I would say that if the code is of sufficient quality and relevance for
>> the project to want
>> > to accept it then contributors should be given commit rights.
>>
>> I would even go further than this: to me a brand new code donation
>> without anybody donating that code willing to sign up to maintain
>> it (at least for as long as it takes for others to ramp up) spells orphaned
>> code.
>>
>> IOW, for sizable brand new contribution the commit rights of somebody
>> familiar with the code shouldn't be a question, but more of a prerequisite
>> to actually accepting that contribution in the first place.
>>
> my personal opion is a big +1 to not accepting bigger contributions if the
> programmers (or at least part of them) comes along.
I assume you meant:
"unless the ... comes along"
or
"if the ... do not come along"
> Getting new code
> without people that understand it deeply, is really asking for trouble.
>
> rgds
> jan I.
>
>
>
>
>> Thanks,
>> Roman.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 26 September 2014 19:23, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> Just like Ross, the following constitutes my personal opinion
> (that has been formed over the years of maintaining complex
> code bases written "before my time"):
>
> On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
> <Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > OK. I will give you my personal opinion since you are seeking to drive
> consensus...
> >
> > I would say that if the code is of sufficient quality and relevance for
> the project to want
> > to accept it then contributors should be given commit rights.
>
> I would even go further than this: to me a brand new code donation
> without anybody donating that code willing to sign up to maintain
> it (at least for as long as it takes for others to ramp up) spells orphaned
> code.
>
> IOW, for sizable brand new contribution the commit rights of somebody
> familiar with the code shouldn't be a question, but more of a prerequisite
> to actually accepting that contribution in the first place.
>
my personal opion is a big +1 to not accepting bigger contributions if the
programmers (or at least part of them) comes along. Getting new code
without people that understand it deeply, is really asking for trouble.
rgds
jan I.
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>
>
Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
Just like Ross, the following constitutes my personal opinion
(that has been formed over the years of maintaining complex
code bases written "before my time"):
On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)
<Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> OK. I will give you my personal opinion since you are seeking to drive consensus...
>
> I would say that if the code is of sufficient quality and relevance for the project to want
> to accept it then contributors should be given commit rights.
I would even go further than this: to me a brand new code donation
without anybody donating that code willing to sign up to maintain
it (at least for as long as it takes for others to ramp up) spells orphaned
code.
IOW, for sizable brand new contribution the commit rights of somebody
familiar with the code shouldn't be a question, but more of a prerequisite
to actually accepting that contribution in the first place.
Thanks,
Roman.
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RE: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
OK. I will give you my personal opinion since you are seeking to drive consensus...
I would say that if the code is of sufficient quality and relevance for the project to want to accept it then contributors should be given commit rights. The debate should really about whether they get PMC membership as well. If the community is not 100% behind bringing in the committers then perhaps the solution is to only give them a commit bit and ask them to earn merit in the project to get PMC membership.
Some people would argue they should get PMC membership too. Normally I would be in this camp (I like commit + PMC in almost all cases), however in this case I might argue that these individuals have not yet demonstrated that they understand the Apache Way and thus their merit is in code only.
Others will likely have different opinions - ultimately the PMC needs to decide what is right for their community.
Ross
Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
MS Open Tech is hiring! Ask me for details if anyone you know is interested (http://aka.ms/msopentechjobs)
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Harui [mailto:aharui@adobe.com]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 9:42 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Hi Ross,
Yes, I am asking here because of lack of consensus in the Flex project.
In this particular scenario the Flex TLP has received a donation from non-committers. I know one of our mentors mentioned that he was given committer rights to different project for bringing in a code base after that project got started. Most of the Flex PMC seems to agree, but I was looking for data from other projects to support this.
-Alex
On 9/26/14 9:00 AM, "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)"
<Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>It really depends on the project. I don't think there are enough cases
>of code coming into an existing project via SGA to be able to say "most
>projects". Fact is most have never faced this issue. I could give you
>my personal opinion but I'm pretty sure someone on this list would have
>a different opinion. This is something best discussed with the
>receiving project and brought here if there is a lack of consensus.
>
>If the code is coming in as a new project then the normal incubating
>proposal process sees a list of initial committers - in other words for
>a new project then it would be expected that all original contributors
>(that wanted to come along) would be given commit rights. Though
>whether that is the case or not depends on the proposers/champion/mentor.
>
>Ross
>
>Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
>A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>MS Open Tech is hiring! Ask me for details if anyone you know is
>interested (http://aka.ms/msopentechjobs)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alex Harui [mailto:aharui@adobe.com]
>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:57 PM
>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>Subject: Code Donations and Committer Righs
>
>I'd like to know: if a code base is donated to Apache under a Software
>Grant, do most projects grant committer rights to the code authors at
>the same time or do most projects require that the donors submit
>patches as other non-committers normally do?
>
>Thanks,
>-Alex
>
>
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>
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Re: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
Hi Ross,
Yes, I am asking here because of lack of consensus in the Flex project.
In this particular scenario the Flex TLP has received a donation from
non-committers. I know one of our mentors mentioned that he was given
committer rights to different project for bringing in a code base after
that project got started. Most of the Flex PMC seems to agree, but I was
looking for data from other projects to support this.
-Alex
On 9/26/14 9:00 AM, "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)"
<Ro...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>It really depends on the project. I don't think there are enough cases of
>code coming into an existing project via SGA to be able to say "most
>projects". Fact is most have never faced this issue. I could give you my
>personal opinion but I'm pretty sure someone on this list would have a
>different opinion. This is something best discussed with the receiving
>project and brought here if there is a lack of consensus.
>
>If the code is coming in as a new project then the normal incubating
>proposal process sees a list of initial committers - in other words for a
>new project then it would be expected that all original contributors
>(that wanted to come along) would be given commit rights. Though whether
>that is the case or not depends on the proposers/champion/mentor.
>
>Ross
>
>Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
>A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
>MS Open Tech is hiring! Ask me for details if anyone you know is
>interested (http://aka.ms/msopentechjobs)
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alex Harui [mailto:aharui@adobe.com]
>Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:57 PM
>To: general@incubator.apache.org
>Subject: Code Donations and Committer Righs
>
>I'd like to know: if a code base is donated to Apache under a Software
>Grant, do most projects grant committer rights to the code authors at the
>same time or do most projects require that the donors submit patches as
>other non-committers normally do?
>
>Thanks,
>-Alex
>
>
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>
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RE: Code Donations and Committer Righs
Posted by "Ross Gardler (MS OPEN TECH)" <Ro...@microsoft.com>.
It really depends on the project. I don't think there are enough cases of code coming into an existing project via SGA to be able to say "most projects". Fact is most have never faced this issue. I could give you my personal opinion but I'm pretty sure someone on this list would have a different opinion. This is something best discussed with the receiving project and brought here if there is a lack of consensus.
If the code is coming in as a new project then the normal incubating proposal process sees a list of initial committers - in other words for a new project then it would be expected that all original contributors (that wanted to come along) would be given commit rights. Though whether that is the case or not depends on the proposers/champion/mentor.
Ross
Microsoft Open Technologies, Inc.
A subsidiary of Microsoft Corporation
MS Open Tech is hiring! Ask me for details if anyone you know is interested (http://aka.ms/msopentechjobs)
-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Harui [mailto:aharui@adobe.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2014 8:57 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Code Donations and Committer Righs
I'd like to know: if a code base is donated to Apache under a Software Grant, do most projects grant committer rights to the code authors at the same time or do most projects require that the donors submit patches as other non-committers normally do?
Thanks,
-Alex
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