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Posted to dev@commons.apache.org by Emmanuel Bourg <eb...@micropole-univers.com> on 2004/02/02 16:05:38 UTC
Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Hi, the Apache License 2.0 has been released last month
(http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0) and it seems it will become
mandatory for all Apache projects this year.
I wonder what is the procedure for this migration, i guess all copyright
holders, that's committers and external contributors, have to agree
explicitely on the relicensing. This should be immediate for the
committers since they signed the Contributor License Agreement allowing
the ASF to license the code in any way. But the other contributors will
have to be contacted to request permission for relicensing, correct?
Emmanuel Bourg
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Feb 4, 2004, at 5:30 PM, Martin Cooper wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
>> On 4 Feb 2004, at 17:51, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>>> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims may
>>>> i politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate forums
>>>> where those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able to
>>>> provide goods answer.
>>>
>>> What mailing list could be contacted to address this concern?
>>
>> license at apache dot org is ASF wide (and contains - or contained -
>> some very big guns).
>
> I sent a message to license@ a couple of days ago, suggesting that a
> message about usage, sent to all committers, might be appropriate,
> given
> the amount of discussion I'm seeing on so many lists. I have not had
> any
> response so far, though. Maybe they're holed up somewhere, wordsmithing
> something to guide us all. ;-)
A message will be forthcoming, either from the board, or the Jakarta
PMC.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 4 Feb 2004, at 22:30, Martin Cooper wrote:
<snip>
> I sent a message to license@ a couple of days ago, suggesting that a
> message about usage, sent to all committers, might be appropriate,
> given
> the amount of discussion I'm seeing on so many lists. I have not had
> any
> response so far, though. Maybe they're holed up somewhere, wordsmithing
> something to guide us all. ;-)
i think that license is a public list so you might need to subscribe to
join in the (small) thread your email started. i'm subscribed and it's
polite, respectful and low volume.
- robert
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2004, at 17:51, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> > robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >> if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims may
> >> i politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate forums
> >> where those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able to
> >> provide goods answer.
> >
> > What mailing list could be contacted to address this concern?
>
> license at apache dot org is ASF wide (and contains - or contained -
> some very big guns).
I sent a message to license@ a couple of days ago, suggesting that a
message about usage, sent to all committers, might be appropriate, given
the amount of discussion I'm seeing on so many lists. I have not had any
response so far, though. Maybe they're holed up somewhere, wordsmithing
something to guide us all. ;-)
--
Martin Cooper
>
> or possibly if you want to raise this with the jakarta pmc then either
> direct to pmc at jakarta dot apache dot org (for private discussions)
> or general at jakarta dot apache dot org (allowing public discussion).
>
> it's nothing personal but the jakarta commons team simple don't have
> the authority to decide legal matters such as these. it's very
> important that all matters such as these are raised with the ASF
> officers (or at the very least with ASF committees that have legal
> standing).
>
> - robert
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Emmanuel Bourg <eb...@micropole-univers.com>.
robert burrell donkin wrote:
>> What's the legal matter to be decided?
>
>
> (as i understand it) emmanuel bourg suspects that the ASF has only a
> license to use from contributors (rather than a copyright transfer) and
> that it would be wise if jakarta commons contacted all contributors and
> sort their approval before changing to the 2.0 license.
>
> - robert
Yes, essentially the contributors who haven't signed the CLA.
Emmanuel
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 8 Feb 2004, at 04:55, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>
> On Feb 4, 2004, at 4:51 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
>> On 4 Feb 2004, at 17:51, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>>> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims
>>>> may i politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate
>>>> forums where those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able
>>>> to provide goods answer.
>>>
>>> What mailing list could be contacted to address this concern?
>>
>> license at apache dot org is ASF wide (and contains - or contained -
>> some very big guns).
>>
>> or possibly if you want to raise this with the jakarta pmc then
>> either direct to pmc at jakarta dot apache dot org (for private
>> discussions) or general at jakarta dot apache dot org (allowing
>> public discussion).
>>
>> it's nothing personal but the jakarta commons team simple don't have
>> the authority to decide legal matters such as these. it's very
>> important that all matters such as these are raised with the ASF
>> officers (or at the very least with ASF committees that have legal
>> standing).
>
> What's the legal matter to be decided?
(as i understand it) emmanuel bourg suspects that the ASF has only a
license to use from contributors (rather than a copyright transfer) and
that it would be wise if jakarta commons contacted all contributors and
sort their approval before changing to the 2.0 license.
- robert
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On Feb 4, 2004, at 4:51 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2004, at 17:51, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims may
>>> i politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate forums
>>> where those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able to
>>> provide goods answer.
>>
>> What mailing list could be contacted to address this concern?
>
> license at apache dot org is ASF wide (and contains - or contained -
> some very big guns).
>
> or possibly if you want to raise this with the jakarta pmc then either
> direct to pmc at jakarta dot apache dot org (for private discussions)
> or general at jakarta dot apache dot org (allowing public discussion).
>
> it's nothing personal but the jakarta commons team simple don't have
> the authority to decide legal matters such as these. it's very
> important that all matters such as these are raised with the ASF
> officers (or at the very least with ASF committees that have legal
> standing).
What's the legal matter to be decided?
geir
>
> - robert
>
>
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>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 4 Feb 2004, at 17:51, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> robert burrell donkin wrote:
<snip>
>> if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims may
>> i politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate forums
>> where those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able to
>> provide goods answer.
>
> What mailing list could be contacted to address this concern?
license at apache dot org is ASF wide (and contains - or contained -
some very big guns).
or possibly if you want to raise this with the jakarta pmc then either
direct to pmc at jakarta dot apache dot org (for private discussions)
or general at jakarta dot apache dot org (allowing public discussion).
it's nothing personal but the jakarta commons team simple don't have
the authority to decide legal matters such as these. it's very
important that all matters such as these are raised with the ASF
officers (or at the very least with ASF committees that have legal
standing).
- robert
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
Quoting Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> > On 4 Feb 2004, at 19:52, Henri Yandell wrote:
> >
> > > licensing@apache.org
> >
> > IIRC i think licensing is closed. i think license is open. (hopefully
> > someone will correct me if i'm wrong)
>
It's the other way around. The "license" list was for discussion of the 2.0
license during its development (over almost two years). The "licensing" list
is for general questions about licensing and ASF.
> Sounds good. I couldn't find anything on the website about it [the legal
> page should specify it I would have thought]. I didn't check the mail2
> page though.
>
I can save you some time though, in answer to the original question on this
thread. The relicensing is occuring on the copy of the code that has already
been contributed to the ASF (and carries an ASF copyright). Anything an
original contributor wants to do on their own (with their own rights to the
original code) is independent of, and irrelevant to, this relicensing. No
retroactive request for relicensing permission is needed -- it was granted in
the first place when the contributor allowed the code to be copyrighted by
ASF.
> Hen
Craig McClanahan
(Jakarta PMC Member)
(ASF Member)
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, robert burrell donkin wrote:
> On 4 Feb 2004, at 19:52, Henri Yandell wrote:
>
> > licensing@apache.org
>
> IIRC i think licensing is closed. i think license is open. (hopefully
> someone will correct me if i'm wrong)
Sounds good. I couldn't find anything on the website about it [the legal
page should specify it I would have thought]. I didn't check the mail2
page though.
Hen
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 4 Feb 2004, at 19:52, Henri Yandell wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
>
>>> if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims may
>>> i
>>> politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate forums
>>> where
>>> those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able to provide
>>> goods
>>> answer.
>>
>> What mailing list could be contacted to address this concern?
>
> licensing@apache.org
IIRC i think licensing is closed. i think license is open. (hopefully
someone will correct me if i'm wrong)
- robert
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> > if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims may i
> > politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate forums where
> > those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able to provide goods
> > answer.
>
> What mailing list could be contacted to address this concern?
licensing@apache.org
Deifnitely sound like valid questions and the ASF licensing people should
have FAQ or prepared answers available for them.
Hen
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Emmanuel Bourg <eb...@micropole-univers.com>.
robert burrell donkin wrote:
> these days, who knows. good, old fashioned, reasonable, understandable
> copyright law is turning into intellectual property law. the ASF is
> governed by US law which is case-based. so until cases have passed
> through the courts, it's purely a matter of one legal opinion against
> another. for a proper answer, the best advice must be: ask your question
> to the best lawyer you can afford.
That sounds more reasonable to investigate now than relicensing without
asking and waiting for someone to sue and settle this issue later. I
doubt an external contributor would refuse to relicense its work under
the new license and bring this to a court though, but that doesn't spare
asking.
> but (from what i know of) the ASF they have always claimed that the
> copyright ownership of code donated to the ASF and then used in their
> software products is vested with them. the ASF does have access to legal
> advice and i for one am willing to believe that this advice is better
> than any speculations on my part (or the others i know on this list).
I don't know if i'm speculating but the Apache documentation seems quite
clear:
http://www.apache.org/licenses/
"In all cases, contributors retain full rights to use their original
contributions for any other purpose outside of Apache while providing
the ASF and its projects the right to distribute and build upon their
work within Apache."
http://www.apache.org/licenses/cla.txt
"2. You hereby grant to the Foundation a non-exclusive, irrevocable,
worldwide, no-charge, transferable copyright license to use, execute,
prepare derivative works of, and distribute (internally and externally,
in object code and, if included in your Contributions, source code form)
your Contributions. Except for the rights granted to the Foundation in
this paragraph, You reserve all right, title and interest in and to your
Contributions."
The ASF is granted enough rights to work with the contribution, but the
ownership is not transfered.
> if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims may i
> politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate forums where
> those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able to provide goods
> answer.
What mailing list could be contacted to address this concern?
Emmanuel Bourg
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
On 3 Feb 2004, at 11:37, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
<snip>
> As i read the CLA and the software grant agreement the ASF doesn't own
> the code, it's just a license agreement and not a copyright transfert.
> That means the ASF is granted by the copyright holder the right to
> "reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly
> perform, distribute and sublicense" the code, that's most of the
> rights of the copyright holder except the right to register the work
> to the Copyright Office and the right to claim copyright and sue for
> infringements.
>
> I think it's interesting to compare this situation with the Mozilla
> relicensing. While Netscape was entitled to relicense the work of its
> employees (as the ASF is allowed to relicense the work of the
> contributors who signed the CLA), they spent a significant time
> hunting down every non-netscape contributor to request the permission
> to relicense their code. IMHO the relicensing to the Apache License
> 2.0 is a similar case.
these days, who knows. good, old fashioned, reasonable, understandable
copyright law is turning into intellectual property law. the ASF is
governed by US law which is case-based. so until cases have passed
through the courts, it's purely a matter of one legal opinion against
another. for a proper answer, the best advice must be: ask your
question to the best lawyer you can afford.
but (from what i know of) the ASF they have always claimed that the
copyright ownership of code donated to the ASF and then used in their
software products is vested with them. the ASF does have access to
legal advice and i for one am willing to believe that this advice is
better than any speculations on my part (or the others i know on this
list).
if you have any further concerns relating to possible ASF claims may i
politely suggest that you take them to a more appropriate forums where
those with authority to speak for the ASF will be able to provide goods
answer.
there ain't nobody here but us chickens ;)
- robert
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> Stephen Colebourne wrote:
>
> > No, the ASF owns the code, as it was donated at time of submission.
> >
> > Stephen
>
> I think it's interesting to compare this situation with the Mozilla
> relicensing. While Netscape was entitled to relicense the work of its
> employees (as the ASF is allowed to relicense the work of the
> contributors who signed the CLA), they spent a significant time hunting
> down every non-netscape contributor to request the permission to
> relicense their code. IMHO the relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 is
> a similar case.
Could be similar. It would match the reason why the ASF is working hard to
ensure that all committers have signed CLAs asap [though whether the work
they have contributed would be rolled out if they cannot has not come up
yet]. I'm unsure on contributors.
Hen
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Emmanuel Bourg <eb...@micropole-univers.com>.
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
> No, the ASF owns the code, as it was donated at time of submission.
>
> Stephen
As i read the CLA and the software grant agreement the ASF doesn't own
the code, it's just a license agreement and not a copyright transfert.
That means the ASF is granted by the copyright holder the right to
"reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly
perform, distribute and sublicense" the code, that's most of the rights
of the copyright holder except the right to register the work to the
Copyright Office and the right to claim copyright and sue for infringements.
I think it's interesting to compare this situation with the Mozilla
relicensing. While Netscape was entitled to relicense the work of its
employees (as the ASF is allowed to relicense the work of the
contributors who signed the CLA), they spent a significant time hunting
down every non-netscape contributor to request the permission to
relicense their code. IMHO the relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 is
a similar case.
Emmanuel Bourg
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Stephen Colebourne <sc...@btopenworld.com>.
From: "Emmanuel Bourg" <eb...@micropole-univers.com>
> But the other contributors will
> have to be contacted to request permission for relicensing, correct?
No, the ASF owns the code, as it was donated at time of submission.
Stephen
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Re: Relicensing to the Apache License 2.0 ?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
The policy as far as I know is:
All releases after March 1st must use Apache License 2.0.
No agreement is needed as the only copyright holders to the ASF version of
the source is the ASF. While people retain copyright to their submissions,
they retain the copyright to their copy and not to the ASF copy.
It might be different for say ASF-members who have not signed the CLA, but
I would expect committers who have not signed the CLA to be the same as a
contributor.
IANAL etc. Just passing on what I've seen said, which could be wrong for
all I know.
Hen
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004, Emmanuel Bourg wrote:
> Hi, the Apache License 2.0 has been released last month
> (http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0) and it seems it will become
> mandatory for all Apache projects this year.
>
> I wonder what is the procedure for this migration, i guess all copyright
> holders, that's committers and external contributors, have to agree
> explicitely on the relicensing. This should be immediate for the
> committers since they signed the Contributor License Agreement allowing
> the ASF to license the code in any way. But the other contributors will
> have to be contacted to request permission for relicensing, correct?
>
> Emmanuel Bourg
>
>
>
>
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