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Posted to dev@ode.apache.org by Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com> on 2010/06/07 15:32:33 UTC
BPM ecosystem at Apache
Hi guys,
I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around ODE
in particular and BPM in general.
While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution, the
BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new human
task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects
(Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE
(adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM
ecosystem at Apache.
Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring PMC.
There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find their
home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which
would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache the
can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project that
will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea, but
I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
Thanks,
Tammo
--
Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Posted by Rafal Rusin <ra...@intalio.com>.
Sounds very good.
On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Milinda Pathirage <
milinda.pathirage@gmail.com> wrote:
> IMHO, as the first step, we should try to bring ODE, Apache Hise, and
> BPEL4Peple implementation together and do a release which provide basic BPM
> tools. WDYT?
>
> Thanks
> Milinda
>
> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There is a balance to be had here. Firstly, the idea of super-projects
> > and sub-projects is tricky. I personally think that in this case it
> > might have some merit, but I agree with others I don't think its going
> > to fly just now. But maybe the approach will change.
> >
> > However, I'm very positive about Tammo's overall goals here: I'd
> > really like to see a more co-ordinated and active roadmap and and
> > encourage people to see that we have focussed plans around BPM. I'm
> > certainly willing to help out with whatever I can.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > Btw, don't get me wrong. I don't say you should not start implementing
> > WSHT
> > > or anything else inside Ode.
> > > I'm just saying that *aiming* at being an umbrella project is not the
> > best
> > > thing to do.
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:41, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:00, Tammo van Lessen <tvanlessen@gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi,
> > >>>
> > >>> okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub
> > >>> projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and
> > makes
> > >>> integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be
> > >>> packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT
> > >>> implementations are probably also interesting for people not
> > necessarily
> > >>> interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar
> merge.
> > >>>
> > >>> If those subprojects are consumable independantly, they may be better
> > as
> > >> two peer TLPs at the end.
> > >> Because you will end up in two different communities: some new
> > committers
> > >> will be involved in one
> > >> project but not the other.
> > >>
> > >> Anyway, it mostly depend on the size of the subprojects and the size
> of
> > >> their respective communities.
> > >> You'd better start either in the incubator or in ode, and see what the
> > >> status is in one year.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or
> > >>> ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand
> that
> > >>> the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very
> > >>> difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong
> together
> > >>> or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not
> > >>> really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I
> > >>> actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always
> > >>> know what I can expect to find there.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> FWIW, Apache Web Services is being kinda dismantled as Axis is being
> > spin
> > >> off as a TLP.
> > >> And the names you refer to (ws and db) would actually never be
> accepted
> > as
> > >> new TLP afaik.
> > >> Because the ASF does not have any technical vision / roadmap /
> strategy,
> > >> you can have
> > >> multiple TLP on the same domain (consider CXF / Axis, but there are
> > other
> > >> examples too).
> > >> So having a bpm.apache.org would not be possible I think.
> > >>
> > >> The fact that it's difficult to find projects for a given technology
> is
> > >> irrelevant to the fact that they
> > >> are grouped into a single TLP or not I think. For that, the
> > >> projects.apache.org site should be
> > >> improved imo.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Tammo
> > >>>
> > >>> On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote:
> > >>> > I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things
> will
> > be
> > >>> > integrated, which means a lot.
> > >>> >
> > >>> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> >> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at
> the
> > >>> ASF
> > >>> >> ...
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <
> > tvanlessen@gmail.com>
> > >>> >> wrote:
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>> Hi guys,
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache
> around
> > >>> ODE
> > >>> >>> in particular and BPM in general.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution,
> > the
> > >>> >>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0),
> new
> > >>> human
> > >>> >>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new
> > projects
> > >>> >>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for
> ODE
> > >>> >>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the
> BPM
> > >>> >>> ecosystem at Apache.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the
> sponsoring
> > >>> PMC.
> > >>> >>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to
> find
> > >>> their
> > >>> >>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE,
> > which
> > >>> >>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at
> Apache
> > >>> the
> > >>> >>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project
> > that
> > >>> >>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked
> > idea,
> > >>> but
> > >>> >>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> Thanks,
> > >>> >>> Tammo
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> --
> > >>> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> --
> > >>> >> Cheers,
> > >>> >> Guillaume Nodet
> > >>> >> ------------------------
> > >>> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> > >>> >> ------------------------
> > >>> >> Open Source SOA
> > >>> >> http://fusesource.com
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>> >
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Cheers,
> > >> Guillaume Nodet
> > >> ------------------------
> > >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> > >> ------------------------
> > >> Open Source SOA
> > >> http://fusesource.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > > Guillaume Nodet
> > > ------------------------
> > > Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> > > ------------------------
> > > Open Source SOA
> > > http://fusesource.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul Fremantle
> > Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2
> > Apache Synapse PMC Chair
> > OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> >
> > blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
> > paul@wso2.com
> >
> > "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Milinda Pathirage
> Technical Lead & Product Manager WSO2 BPS; http://wso2.org/bps
> WSO2 Inc.; http://wso2.com
> E-mail: milinda@wso2.com, milinda.pathirage@gmail.com
> Web: http://mpathirage.com
> Blog: http://blog.mpathirage.com
>
--
Regards,
Rafał Rusin
http://rrusin.blogspot.com
Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Posted by Milinda Pathirage <mi...@gmail.com>.
IMHO, as the first step, we should try to bring ODE, Apache Hise, and
BPEL4Peple implementation together and do a release which provide basic BPM
tools. WDYT?
Thanks
Milinda
On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a balance to be had here. Firstly, the idea of super-projects
> and sub-projects is tricky. I personally think that in this case it
> might have some merit, but I agree with others I don't think its going
> to fly just now. But maybe the approach will change.
>
> However, I'm very positive about Tammo's overall goals here: I'd
> really like to see a more co-ordinated and active roadmap and and
> encourage people to see that we have focussed plans around BPM. I'm
> certainly willing to help out with whatever I can.
>
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Btw, don't get me wrong. I don't say you should not start implementing
> WSHT
> > or anything else inside Ode.
> > I'm just saying that *aiming* at being an umbrella project is not the
> best
> > thing to do.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:41, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:00, Tammo van Lessen <tvanlessen@gmail.com
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub
> >>> projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and
> makes
> >>> integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be
> >>> packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT
> >>> implementations are probably also interesting for people not
> necessarily
> >>> interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar merge.
> >>>
> >>> If those subprojects are consumable independantly, they may be better
> as
> >> two peer TLPs at the end.
> >> Because you will end up in two different communities: some new
> committers
> >> will be involved in one
> >> project but not the other.
> >>
> >> Anyway, it mostly depend on the size of the subprojects and the size of
> >> their respective communities.
> >> You'd better start either in the incubator or in ode, and see what the
> >> status is in one year.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or
> >>> ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand that
> >>> the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very
> >>> difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong together
> >>> or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not
> >>> really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I
> >>> actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always
> >>> know what I can expect to find there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> FWIW, Apache Web Services is being kinda dismantled as Axis is being
> spin
> >> off as a TLP.
> >> And the names you refer to (ws and db) would actually never be accepted
> as
> >> new TLP afaik.
> >> Because the ASF does not have any technical vision / roadmap / strategy,
> >> you can have
> >> multiple TLP on the same domain (consider CXF / Axis, but there are
> other
> >> examples too).
> >> So having a bpm.apache.org would not be possible I think.
> >>
> >> The fact that it's difficult to find projects for a given technology is
> >> irrelevant to the fact that they
> >> are grouped into a single TLP or not I think. For that, the
> >> projects.apache.org site should be
> >> improved imo.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Tammo
> >>>
> >>> On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote:
> >>> > I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things will
> be
> >>> > integrated, which means a lot.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the
> >>> ASF
> >>> >> ...
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <
> tvanlessen@gmail.com>
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Hi guys,
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around
> >>> ODE
> >>> >>> in particular and BPM in general.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution,
> the
> >>> >>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new
> >>> human
> >>> >>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new
> projects
> >>> >>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE
> >>> >>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM
> >>> >>> ecosystem at Apache.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring
> >>> PMC.
> >>> >>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find
> >>> their
> >>> >>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE,
> which
> >>> >>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache
> >>> the
> >>> >>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project
> that
> >>> >>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked
> idea,
> >>> but
> >>> >>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Thanks,
> >>> >>> Tammo
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> --
> >>> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> Cheers,
> >>> >> Guillaume Nodet
> >>> >> ------------------------
> >>> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> >>> >> ------------------------
> >>> >> Open Source SOA
> >>> >> http://fusesource.com
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >> Guillaume Nodet
> >> ------------------------
> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> >> ------------------------
> >> Open Source SOA
> >> http://fusesource.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > Guillaume Nodet
> > ------------------------
> > Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> > ------------------------
> > Open Source SOA
> > http://fusesource.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Paul Fremantle
> Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2
> Apache Synapse PMC Chair
> OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
>
> blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
> paul@wso2.com
>
> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
>
--
Milinda Pathirage
Technical Lead & Product Manager WSO2 BPS; http://wso2.org/bps
WSO2 Inc.; http://wso2.com
E-mail: milinda@wso2.com, milinda.pathirage@gmail.com
Web: http://mpathirage.com
Blog: http://blog.mpathirage.com
Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Posted by Paul Fremantle <pz...@gmail.com>.
There is a balance to be had here. Firstly, the idea of super-projects
and sub-projects is tricky. I personally think that in this case it
might have some merit, but I agree with others I don't think its going
to fly just now. But maybe the approach will change.
However, I'm very positive about Tammo's overall goals here: I'd
really like to see a more co-ordinated and active roadmap and and
encourage people to see that we have focussed plans around BPM. I'm
certainly willing to help out with whatever I can.
Paul
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Btw, don't get me wrong. I don't say you should not start implementing WSHT
> or anything else inside Ode.
> I'm just saying that *aiming* at being an umbrella project is not the best
> thing to do.
>
> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:41, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:00, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub
>>> projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and makes
>>> integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be
>>> packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT
>>> implementations are probably also interesting for people not necessarily
>>> interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar merge.
>>>
>>> If those subprojects are consumable independantly, they may be better as
>> two peer TLPs at the end.
>> Because you will end up in two different communities: some new committers
>> will be involved in one
>> project but not the other.
>>
>> Anyway, it mostly depend on the size of the subprojects and the size of
>> their respective communities.
>> You'd better start either in the incubator or in ode, and see what the
>> status is in one year.
>>
>>
>>> Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or
>>> ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand that
>>> the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very
>>> difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong together
>>> or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not
>>> really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I
>>> actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always
>>> know what I can expect to find there.
>>>
>>>
>> FWIW, Apache Web Services is being kinda dismantled as Axis is being spin
>> off as a TLP.
>> And the names you refer to (ws and db) would actually never be accepted as
>> new TLP afaik.
>> Because the ASF does not have any technical vision / roadmap / strategy,
>> you can have
>> multiple TLP on the same domain (consider CXF / Axis, but there are other
>> examples too).
>> So having a bpm.apache.org would not be possible I think.
>>
>> The fact that it's difficult to find projects for a given technology is
>> irrelevant to the fact that they
>> are grouped into a single TLP or not I think. For that, the
>> projects.apache.org site should be
>> improved imo.
>>
>>
>>> Tammo
>>>
>>> On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote:
>>> > I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things will be
>>> > integrated, which means a lot.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the
>>> ASF
>>> >> ...
>>> >>
>>> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi guys,
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around
>>> ODE
>>> >>> in particular and BPM in general.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution, the
>>> >>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new
>>> human
>>> >>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects
>>> >>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE
>>> >>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM
>>> >>> ecosystem at Apache.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring
>>> PMC.
>>> >>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find
>>> their
>>> >>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which
>>> >>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache
>>> the
>>> >>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project that
>>> >>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea,
>>> but
>>> >>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thanks,
>>> >>> Tammo
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Cheers,
>>> >> Guillaume Nodet
>>> >> ------------------------
>>> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>>> >> ------------------------
>>> >> Open Source SOA
>>> >> http://fusesource.com
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Guillaume Nodet
>> ------------------------
>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>> ------------------------
>> Open Source SOA
>> http://fusesource.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
>
--
Paul Fremantle
Co-Founder and CTO, WSO2
Apache Synapse PMC Chair
OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org
paul@wso2.com
"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>.
Btw, don't get me wrong. I don't say you should not start implementing WSHT
or anything else inside Ode.
I'm just saying that *aiming* at being an umbrella project is not the best
thing to do.
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:41, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:00, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub
>> projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and makes
>> integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be
>> packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT
>> implementations are probably also interesting for people not necessarily
>> interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar merge.
>>
>> If those subprojects are consumable independantly, they may be better as
> two peer TLPs at the end.
> Because you will end up in two different communities: some new committers
> will be involved in one
> project but not the other.
>
> Anyway, it mostly depend on the size of the subprojects and the size of
> their respective communities.
> You'd better start either in the incubator or in ode, and see what the
> status is in one year.
>
>
>> Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or
>> ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand that
>> the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very
>> difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong together
>> or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not
>> really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I
>> actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always
>> know what I can expect to find there.
>>
>>
> FWIW, Apache Web Services is being kinda dismantled as Axis is being spin
> off as a TLP.
> And the names you refer to (ws and db) would actually never be accepted as
> new TLP afaik.
> Because the ASF does not have any technical vision / roadmap / strategy,
> you can have
> multiple TLP on the same domain (consider CXF / Axis, but there are other
> examples too).
> So having a bpm.apache.org would not be possible I think.
>
> The fact that it's difficult to find projects for a given technology is
> irrelevant to the fact that they
> are grouped into a single TLP or not I think. For that, the
> projects.apache.org site should be
> improved imo.
>
>
>> Tammo
>>
>> On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote:
>> > I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things will be
>> > integrated, which means a lot.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the
>> ASF
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Hi guys,
>> >>>
>> >>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around
>> ODE
>> >>> in particular and BPM in general.
>> >>>
>> >>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution, the
>> >>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new
>> human
>> >>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects
>> >>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE
>> >>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM
>> >>> ecosystem at Apache.
>> >>>
>> >>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring
>> PMC.
>> >>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find
>> their
>> >>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which
>> >>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
>> >>>
>> >>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache
>> the
>> >>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project that
>> >>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea,
>> but
>> >>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks,
>> >>> Tammo
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Cheers,
>> >> Guillaume Nodet
>> >> ------------------------
>> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>> >> ------------------------
>> >> Open Source SOA
>> >> http://fusesource.com
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
>
>
>
--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 17:00, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub
> projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and makes
> integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be
> packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT
> implementations are probably also interesting for people not necessarily
> interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar merge.
>
> If those subprojects are consumable independantly, they may be better as
two peer TLPs at the end.
Because you will end up in two different communities: some new committers
will be involved in one
project but not the other.
Anyway, it mostly depend on the size of the subprojects and the size of
their respective communities.
You'd better start either in the incubator or in ode, and see what the
status is in one year.
> Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or
> ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand that
> the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very
> difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong together
> or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not
> really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I
> actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always
> know what I can expect to find there.
>
>
FWIW, Apache Web Services is being kinda dismantled as Axis is being spin
off as a TLP.
And the names you refer to (ws and db) would actually never be accepted as
new TLP afaik.
Because the ASF does not have any technical vision / roadmap / strategy, you
can have
multiple TLP on the same domain (consider CXF / Axis, but there are other
examples too).
So having a bpm.apache.org would not be possible I think.
The fact that it's difficult to find projects for a given technology is
irrelevant to the fact that they
are grouped into a single TLP or not I think. For that, the
projects.apache.org site should be
improved imo.
> Tammo
>
> On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote:
> > I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things will be
> > integrated, which means a lot.
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the ASF
> >> ...
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi guys,
> >>>
> >>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around ODE
> >>> in particular and BPM in general.
> >>>
> >>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution, the
> >>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new
> human
> >>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects
> >>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
> >>>
> >>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE
> >>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM
> >>> ecosystem at Apache.
> >>>
> >>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring
> PMC.
> >>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find
> their
> >>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which
> >>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
> >>>
> >>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache the
> >>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project that
> >>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea,
> but
> >>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Tammo
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers,
> >> Guillaume Nodet
> >> ------------------------
> >> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> >> ------------------------
> >> Open Source SOA
> >> http://fusesource.com
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>
--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com
Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Posted by Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
okay, first I agree that integrating and sharing code of multiple sub
projects into one repository with one build system makes sense and makes
integration, testing etc. easier. Although I think they should be
packaged separately (e.g. as mvn bundles and dists) as WSHT
implementations are probably also interesting for people not necessarily
interested in ODE. I think the Solr/Lucene guys did some similar merge.
Regarding umbrellas: No matter if it's called bpm.apache.org or
ode.apache.org, it will probably become an umbrella. I understand that
the ASF likes top-level-projects, but I personally find it very
difficult currently to find projects that are related, belong together
or are intended to be used together, simply because their names not
really suggest that they belong to a certain domain. That's why I
actually really like ws.apache.org or db.apache.org because I always
know what I can expect to find there.
Tammo
On 07.06.2010 15:47, Rafal Rusin wrote:
> I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things will be
> integrated, which means a lot.
>
> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the ASF
>> ...
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around ODE
>>> in particular and BPM in general.
>>>
>>> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution, the
>>> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new human
>>> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects
>>> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
>>>
>>> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE
>>> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM
>>> ecosystem at Apache.
>>>
>>> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring PMC.
>>> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find their
>>> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which
>>> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
>>>
>>> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache the
>>> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project that
>>> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea, but
>>> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tammo
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Guillaume Nodet
>> ------------------------
>> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
>> ------------------------
>> Open Source SOA
>> http://fusesource.com
>>
>
>
>
--
Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Posted by Rafal Rusin <ra...@intalio.com>.
I think growing ODE is the way to go, because in the end, things will be
integrated, which means a lot.
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:36 PM, Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the ASF
> ...
>
> On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around ODE
> > in particular and BPM in general.
> >
> > While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution, the
> > BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new human
> > task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects
> > (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
> >
> > I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE
> > (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM
> > ecosystem at Apache.
> >
> > Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring PMC.
> > There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find their
> > home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which
> > would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
> >
> > I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache the
> > can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project that
> > will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea, but
> > I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tammo
> >
> > --
> > Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Guillaume Nodet
> ------------------------
> Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
> ------------------------
> Open Source SOA
> http://fusesource.com
>
--
Regards,
Rafał Rusin
http://rrusin.blogspot.com
Re: BPM ecosystem at Apache
Posted by Guillaume Nodet <gn...@gmail.com>.
Last time I looked, umbrella projects were still frowned upon at the ASF ...
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 15:32, Tammo van Lessen <tv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> I'd like to raise a discussion about the ecosystem at Apache around ODE
> in particular and BPM in general.
>
> While ODE is getting mature and provides a stable BPEL execution, the
> BPM market is moving on, bringing up new languages (BPMN 2.0), new human
> task definitions (WSHT), new integrations (BPEL4People), new projects
> (Apache Hise), new adopters (JBoss Riftsaw), etc.
>
> I think it is time to discuss not only an adjusted road map for ODE
> (adding support for BPMN 2.0 and BPEL4People/WSHT) but also the BPM
> ecosystem at Apache.
>
> Apache Hise is currently under incubation and ODE is the sponsoring PMC.
> There may also be other BPM related projects that may want to find their
> home at Apache, but not necessarily under the umbrella of ODE, which
> would directly connect them with BPEL and/or process execution.
>
> I think we should think about founding a BPM umbrella PMC at Apache the
> can serve as the home of Ode, Hise, and whatever BPMish project that
> will come up in future. Honestly, this is yet just an uncooked idea, but
> I'd like to get your opinions on that. WDYT?
>
> Thanks,
> Tammo
>
> --
> Tammo van Lessen - http://www.taval.de
>
--
Cheers,
Guillaume Nodet
------------------------
Blog: http://gnodet.blogspot.com/
------------------------
Open Source SOA
http://fusesource.com