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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> on 2012/05/01 12:23:37 UTC
Getting Started with AOO book
The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous, and very demotivating for me to continue to work on it. I've put the updated draft chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book there soon. Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice books. Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs. Cheers, Jean
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:22 PM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think the trick is finding the right people, of connecting
>> volunteers with volunteer opportunities. Realistically, if someone
>> was really interested in tech writing, they probably would not be on
>> this list. The traffic level and the topics covered would make this
>> list nearly unbearable to someone unless they were interested in the
>> project in general. I don't think it is necessarily lack of interest
>> or lack of writers. It could just be a question of finding them.
>>
>> So instead of having posts lost in the ocean of ooo-dev, maybe we'd
>> have better luck with:
>>
>> 1) Adding some specific ODF Authors call for volunteers info on our
>> "help wanted" page;
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Help+Wanted
>
>
> I'm actually surprised that you are suggesting calling for techwriters
> to join ODFAuthors instead of trying to get them involved with
> "official" Apache-licensed user docs. I'm not objecting, mind you, but
> I am surprised.
>
Well, I'm surprised that you are "surprised", since we've discussed
this repeatedly for 9 months.
The 3.4 User Guides are created by you and your volunteers with
ODFAuthors. That is an external group, not part of Apache. That is
fine. The broader OpenOffice ecosystem includes many similar
efforts. Why shouldn't I encourage volunteers to work with you?
As we've discussed before, moving that effort to Apache is possible,
but only if the work is done under the Apache license. But that does
not seem possible because of the diverse and scattered authorship and
license regimes of the existing guides.
So I can only see two options.
1) Continue as you are, at ODFAuthors, using your own website, lists, etc..
2) Start fresh at Apache with whatever materials can be brought in
under ALv2. This might be nothing.
Do you see any other options?
I think option #1 is the easiest one. If you want to push for #2,
then you are welcome to do that, but it will require much more effort.
>>
>> 2) cc'ing ooo-users on a "call for volunteers" (or reviewers) post.
>> (ooo-users is more power users than normal users)
>>
>> 3) Write a blog post on the project blog, explaining the documentation
>> program you have in general, what you've accomplished and then explain
>> how interested parties can get involved. We can promote that post via
>> social networking sites and get thousands of views, This is probably
>> your best bet.
>
> We don't actually have a documentation program at this point. All the
> official stuff is still under discussion as to which way to go, what
> to do, where to do it.
>
Depends on who "we" is.
If you mean ODFAuthors, then certainly you have a documentation program.
If you mean AOO users, then certainly they have access to this documentation.
If you mean an official documentation project, hosted at Apache, using
Apache lists, with source docs stored in Subversion and PDF's included
in our releases, then you are correct. But does that really
necessary? The guides were not part of the installs before with OOo,
were they? So why would it be different now?
As for discussion, yes we can discuss as long as you want. But the
fact is you've made progress with doing the 3.4 guides with
volunteers at ODFAuthors. Why shouldn't you want to build on that
success?
>>
>> 4) In general, promote the idea of volunteering. For example, imagine
>> something like this:
>>
>> "Just in time for the release of Apache OpenOffice 3.4 we have
>> refreshed content for the User Guides. Technical writers with the
>> ODF Authors project have worked hard to create these updates, but we
>> need to your help to review these new guides. Both technical and
>> editorial reviews are valuable. This is a great opportunity for new
>> volunteers on the project, since it assumes no previous knowledge
>> about OpenOffice, and in fact you will learn a lot about it in the
>> process!
>>
>> To volunteer, please join the following mailing list XXXXXX and
>> introduce yourself. Our editors are standing by."
>>
>> See? Make it interesting, exciting and actionable.
>
>
> Over the years I've done quite a bit of that type of recruitment. My
> experience is that such efforts mostly bring forth a collection of
> wannabe writers who waste enormous amounts of my time and produce
> nothing useful, and reviewers who nitpick but don't notice actual
> errors in content. The few productive members of the ODFAuthors team
> appear to have come on their own, and those few make great
> contributions.
>
Yes, you need to filter, and not every one who volunteers will work
out in the project. In that regard a documentation effort is the
same as every other part of OpenOffice, or indeed every other open
source project, or indeed every commercial software development
project.
> For the various reasons mentioned above, I personally am not motivated
> to do any of the sort of recruitment you suggest at this time. If
> someone else wants to do so, that's fine.
>
Another approach, which can work with a project with such a large
established user population, is to think of a pyramid with users at
the base. If you want more help with something, then start with
getting more users of something. So if you want more help with user
guides then start with making more users aware of the users guides.
Blog posts, posts to ooo-users, announce list, social networks, etc.
At the same time indicate how users can submit corrections. Small
steps. A certain percentage of users will do that. That is the next
level of the pyramid, the casual contributors. Then you work on
getting them into
steady contributors. You thank them, give them credit, etc. When
you have a new draft, make sure you notify those who had contributor
before. Steady contributors of course become Committers and PPMC
members, and you have the top of the pyramid.
> I totally agree with your comment in the first paragraph about
> techwriters probably not being on this list. I think we need a
> separate list. But every time the topic has come up, it's been lost in
> the "wait until the traffic gets high enough and then we'll consider a
> separate list" syndrome (not specifically about a docs list). No, I'm
> not going to attempt to look up when I brought up the subject.
>
IMHO, you'll get even poorer results with an empty list. it is not
"build it and they will come".
Regards,
-Rob
> --Jean
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Guy Waterval <wa...@gmail.com>.
Hi Jean,
2012/5/2 Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>
>
> Over the years I've done quite a bit of that type of recruitment. My
> experience is that such efforts mostly bring forth a collection of
> wannabe writers who waste enormous amounts of my time and produce
> nothing useful, and reviewers who nitpick but don't notice actual
> errors in content. The few productive members of the ODFAuthors team
> appear to have come on their own, and those few make great
> contributions.
>
> For the various reasons mentioned above, I personally am not motivated
> to do any of the sort of recruitment you suggest at this time. If
> someone else wants to do so, that's fine.
>
I can understand your reticence with a too big campaign of recrutement. The
"Take all what you find, put all the business in a pot, add a liter ketchup
and mix" is a modern method of management but certainly not a good one.;-)
But you haven't to be demotivated, because with a few people you have
produced, without noise, an useful and concret work. Thus, you haven't to
assume all the job here, this project has also to take its
responsabilities, but your experience has a high value here where all has
to be started.
A+
--
gw
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I think the trick is finding the right people, of connecting
> volunteers with volunteer opportunities. Realistically, if someone
> was really interested in tech writing, they probably would not be on
> this list. The traffic level and the topics covered would make this
> list nearly unbearable to someone unless they were interested in the
> project in general. I don't think it is necessarily lack of interest
> or lack of writers. It could just be a question of finding them.
>
> So instead of having posts lost in the ocean of ooo-dev, maybe we'd
> have better luck with:
>
> 1) Adding some specific ODF Authors call for volunteers info on our
> "help wanted" page;
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Help+Wanted
I'm actually surprised that you are suggesting calling for techwriters
to join ODFAuthors instead of trying to get them involved with
"official" Apache-licensed user docs. I'm not objecting, mind you, but
I am surprised.
>
> 2) cc'ing ooo-users on a "call for volunteers" (or reviewers) post.
> (ooo-users is more power users than normal users)
>
> 3) Write a blog post on the project blog, explaining the documentation
> program you have in general, what you've accomplished and then explain
> how interested parties can get involved. We can promote that post via
> social networking sites and get thousands of views, This is probably
> your best bet.
We don't actually have a documentation program at this point. All the
official stuff is still under discussion as to which way to go, what
to do, where to do it.
>
> 4) In general, promote the idea of volunteering. For example, imagine
> something like this:
>
> "Just in time for the release of Apache OpenOffice 3.4 we have
> refreshed content for the User Guides. Technical writers with the
> ODF Authors project have worked hard to create these updates, but we
> need to your help to review these new guides. Both technical and
> editorial reviews are valuable. This is a great opportunity for new
> volunteers on the project, since it assumes no previous knowledge
> about OpenOffice, and in fact you will learn a lot about it in the
> process!
>
> To volunteer, please join the following mailing list XXXXXX and
> introduce yourself. Our editors are standing by."
>
> See? Make it interesting, exciting and actionable.
Over the years I've done quite a bit of that type of recruitment. My
experience is that such efforts mostly bring forth a collection of
wannabe writers who waste enormous amounts of my time and produce
nothing useful, and reviewers who nitpick but don't notice actual
errors in content. The few productive members of the ODFAuthors team
appear to have come on their own, and those few make great
contributions.
For the various reasons mentioned above, I personally am not motivated
to do any of the sort of recruitment you suggest at this time. If
someone else wants to do so, that's fine.
I totally agree with your comment in the first paragraph about
techwriters probably not being on this list. I think we need a
separate list. But every time the topic has come up, it's been lost in
the "wait until the traffic gets high enough and then we'll consider a
separate list" syndrome (not specifically about a docs list). No, I'm
not going to attempt to look up when I brought up the subject.
--Jean
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 7:55 PM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 6:23 AM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous, and very demotivating for me to continue to work on it. I've put the updated draft chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book there soon. Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice books. Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs. Cheers, Jean
>>
>> In case it is not clear: this is the mad rush to do the final touches
>> on the AOO 3.4 release. We're completing the vote, mapping out
>> release directory structures, updating download scripts, doing final
>> website translations, preparing blog posts and release announcements,
>> etc. Anyone involved in the project is already working at 110% this
>> week. So don't be demotivated if you don't get immediate feedback on
>> your user guides. But next time maybe try to have these ready for
>> review at the same time we're prepping the Release Candidate build.
>> You're more likely to get cycles from project members then.
>>
>> -Rob
>
> I first brought this specific book project up on this list on 15
> February, at which time there was a bit of discussion but no one came
> forth to actually do any work. I also brought it up at ODFAuthors,
> with similar lack of response. So I forged ahead on my own. On 4 April
> I asked for reviewers on both this list and ODFAuthors. I may be
> wrong, but I think that was before the RC prep cycle.
>
> My note at the start of this thread was as much to do with the lack of
> interest (at ODFAuthors as well as here) from people to work on
> preparing the drafts, as it was about lack of reviewers. The lack of
> techwriters could be due to any number of factors, but the nett result
> is as I mentioned in my first note on this thread.
>
I think the trick is finding the right people, of connecting
volunteers with volunteer opportunities. Realistically, if someone
was really interested in tech writing, they probably would not be on
this list. The traffic level and the topics covered would make this
list nearly unbearable to someone unless they were interested in the
project in general. I don't think it is necessarily lack of interest
or lack of writers. It could just be a question of finding them.
So instead of having posts lost in the ocean of ooo-dev, maybe we'd
have better luck with:
1) Adding some specific ODF Authors call for volunteers info on our
"help wanted" page;
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Help+Wanted
2) cc'ing ooo-users on a "call for volunteers" (or reviewers) post.
(ooo-users is more power users than normal users)
3) Write a blog post on the project blog, explaining the documentation
program you have in general, what you've accomplished and then explain
how interested parties can get involved. We can promote that post via
social networking sites and get thousands of views, This is probably
your best bet.
4) In general, promote the idea of volunteering. For example, imagine
something like this:
"Just in time for the release of Apache OpenOffice 3.4 we have
refreshed content for the User Guides. Technical writers with the
ODF Authors project have worked hard to create these updates, but we
need to your help to review these new guides. Both technical and
editorial reviews are valuable. This is a great opportunity for new
volunteers on the project, since it assumes no previous knowledge
about OpenOffice, and in fact you will learn a lot about it in the
process!
To volunteer, please join the following mailing list XXXXXX and
introduce yourself. Our editors are standing by."
See? Make it interesting, exciting and actionable.
-Rob
> --Jean
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 11:09 PM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 6:23 AM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous, and very demotivating for me to continue to work on it. I've put the updated draft chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book there soon. Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice books. Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs. Cheers, Jean
>
> In case it is not clear: this is the mad rush to do the final touches
> on the AOO 3.4 release. We're completing the vote, mapping out
> release directory structures, updating download scripts, doing final
> website translations, preparing blog posts and release announcements,
> etc. Anyone involved in the project is already working at 110% this
> week. So don't be demotivated if you don't get immediate feedback on
> your user guides. But next time maybe try to have these ready for
> review at the same time we're prepping the Release Candidate build.
> You're more likely to get cycles from project members then.
>
> -Rob
I first brought this specific book project up on this list on 15
February, at which time there was a bit of discussion but no one came
forth to actually do any work. I also brought it up at ODFAuthors,
with similar lack of response. So I forged ahead on my own. On 4 April
I asked for reviewers on both this list and ODFAuthors. I may be
wrong, but I think that was before the RC prep cycle.
My note at the start of this thread was as much to do with the lack of
interest (at ODFAuthors as well as here) from people to work on
preparing the drafts, as it was about lack of reviewers. The lack of
techwriters could be due to any number of factors, but the nett result
is as I mentioned in my first note on this thread.
--Jean
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 6:23 AM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous, and very demotivating for me to continue to work on it. I've put the updated draft chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book there soon. Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice books. Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs. Cheers, Jean
In case it is not clear: this is the mad rush to do the final touches
on the AOO 3.4 release. We're completing the vote, mapping out
release directory structures, updating download scripts, doing final
website translations, preparing blog posts and release announcements,
etc. Anyone involved in the project is already working at 110% this
week. So don't be demotivated if you don't get immediate feedback on
your user guides. But next time maybe try to have these ready for
review at the same time we're prepping the Release Candidate build.
You're more likely to get cycles from project members then.
-Rob
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Louis Suárez-Potts <lu...@gmail.com>.
Jean, et al.
On 2012-05-01, at 06:23 , Jean Weber wrote:
> The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous, and very demotivating for me to continue to work on it. I've put the updated draft chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book there soon. Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice books. Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs. Cheers, Jean
One of the crucial elements for developing an ecosystem is to have available, free or not, texts that enable regular users to get started: reference manuals, guides, whatever.
During OOo's days, we had a page that pointed people to the Authors' works, and it was accessed. We also had other authors, outside of OOo, such as Solveig, who indirectly highlighted the work being done by the Authors and, more generally, by the Documentation Project, under Frank and Clayton and others.
My point: Let's redevelop the ecosystem. It needs several things, documentation is one of them, but also the assurance that there is a code, there, that can be used and supported and migrated to; and that will be developed and enhanced over time.
Getting AOO 3.4 out will help immensely. Having immediately available documentation and guides will help, too and in ways that are absolutely requisite for the sustainability of the project.
What we can do: There remain some support/service organizations around the world focused on OO and not LO. Notifying them is a bit of pain, as their actual business is unclear to me. But I can think of at least two, and I'm quite sure there are more.
Building a list of these is important. We had done something like this, with OOo's consultants' list, but that was unusably large, perpetually out of date, and so on.
Having a list of actual providers seems better, but it also means instituting criteria for addition; that is not hard, especially if the Apache OO project is *not* involved as such, as I think it may deviate from the developmental and productive purpose we recognize, but I could be quite wrong here.
louis
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>.
On 01/05/2012, at 20:37, eric <er...@free.fr> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Le 01/05/2012 12:23, Jean Weber a écrit :
>> The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous,
>> and very demotivating for me to continue to work on it.
>
> What about wait for the Apache OpenOffice availability *before* to stop ?
> IMHO, it should be more easy to find contributors once we'll provide something usable.
Possibly we'll get more technical writers then. But always having user documentation done *after* the release is not a good situation. Most if the time the user docs don't get done before the next release, and so are always very late and behind schedule. This is very common, not just at AOO.
Also, these books are not under Apache license, and there has been talk about doing other types of user assistance within the official project. So any tech writers who turn up should be encouraged to work on official stuff, don't you think?
>
>> I've put the updated draft chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book there soon.
>> Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice books.
>
>
> I don't understand why you say that, just before Apache OpenOffice graduation, but thanks a lot.
>
>
>> Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs. Cheers, Jean
>
> I think someone will contact you.
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by eric <er...@free.fr>.
Hi,
Le 01/05/2012 12:23, Jean Weber a écrit :
> The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous,
> and very demotivating for me to continue to work on it.
What about wait for the Apache OpenOffice availability *before* to stop ?
IMHO, it should be more easy to find contributors once we'll provide
something usable.
> I've put the updated draft chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book there soon.
> Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice books.
I don't understand why you say that, just before Apache OpenOffice
graduation, but thanks a lot.
> Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs. Cheers, Jean
I think someone will contact you.
Regards,
Eric
--
Education Project:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Education_Project
Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org
Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Kay Schenk <ka...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Juergen Schmidt
<jo...@googlemail.com>wrote:
> On Tuesday, 1. May 2012 at 12:23, Jean Weber wrote:
> > The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous, and very
> demotivating for me to continue to work on it. I've put the updated draft
> chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book
> there soon. Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice
> books. Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs.
> Cheers, Jean
> >
> >
>
> it's simply a busy time at the moment with a lot of things that have to be
> finished for our 3.4 release.
> I personally got an upset stomach and felt not motivated to do anything.
> Probably the German food was to heavy compared to Chinese food that I have
> enjoyed the last weeks.
> But I am sure you will get many feedback when the 3.4 is out and more and
> more people will seeking good documenting.
> Maybe the forum is also a good place to ask for feedback. I don't know if
> you have asked there as well.
>
> Your work and the work of odfauthors is very much appreciated and very
> useful.
>
> Don't be demotivated, let us think how we can promote the docs better.
> Maybe we can include some reference links in our integrated help or
> something similar.
>
This would be a nice idea...I see the "/support" area, where books and
other support is kept, is not mentioned in the README file and maybe should
be.
And, yes, it has been VERY busy with distribution details right now. I am
optimistic we can get back to" rebuilding the ecosystem" once this initial
release is out.
> Juergen
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MzK
"Well, life has a funny way of sneaking up on you
And life has a funny way of helping you out
Helping you out."
-- "Ironic", Alanis Morissette
Re: Getting Started with AOO book
Posted by Juergen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>.
On Tuesday, 1. May 2012 at 12:23, Jean Weber wrote:
> The lack of interest in this book is quite conspicuous, and very demotivating for me to continue to work on it. I've put the updated draft chapters on the ODFAuthors website and will put the compiled draft book there soon. Then I'll go back to my travel photos and to the LibreOffice books. Someone can let me know if/when anything happens at AOO userdocs. Cheers, Jean
>
>
it's simply a busy time at the moment with a lot of things that have to be finished for our 3.4 release.
I personally got an upset stomach and felt not motivated to do anything. Probably the German food was to heavy compared to Chinese food that I have enjoyed the last weeks.
But I am sure you will get many feedback when the 3.4 is out and more and more people will seeking good documenting.
Maybe the forum is also a good place to ask for feedback. I don't know if you have asked there as well.
Your work and the work of odfauthors is very much appreciated and very useful.
Don't be demotivated, let us think how we can promote the docs better. Maybe we can include some reference links in our integrated help or something similar.
Juergen