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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com> on 2003/08/23 18:32:54 UTC
Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?
Hi Roger:
Can you write the intro as you suggested? Please don't take this question
in the bad sense. I think all of us can help to make a better Cocoon. We
are a community with a common interest called Cocoon framework.
I meet Cocoon a year ago (I still consider my self a newbie in Cocoon).
>From my point of view, there has been an amazing improvement in the Cocoon
documentation: Currently, we have 3 printed books released in less than a
year, a nice (still growing) wiki site with many info and helps docs to
read and at the end but not the last important a better official cocoon
documentation. A year ago there was nothing like that, just some docs in
the official cocoon site and a handfull articles somewhere in the vast
Internet. It is really amazing how long the project growed in the last
year. I saw that. Well, as usual, nothing is perfect and because of that
we are still working to improve Cocoon framework every day. I encourage
you to join us an helps in this wonderful project.
>From my own experience in the project I learned that:
"Critics are always welcomed, because helps to improve the framework. But
solutions are better welcomed".
By solutions I mean a patch that address a particular problem someone see.
Remember that this is a multi cultural community that try to use a unique
language (english). The skill of written english that members use is very
diferent. From totally beginners to people with great skill to write
english. This is a fact. Take my own example:
To write this mail I need more than 30 mins. I need to review what I wrote
to make sure if my message carries what I mean and I know still there are
many errors and sometimes after my own review my message is not carried in
the lines. But is is not because I am a stupid, this is because simply my
mother language is not english.
For there reasons, I think we need people with better skill of written
english to help us to write and improve the docs. And if this is your case
I encourage you to helps us to write your requested INSTALL.txt :)
As usual, when there is nothing, the first draft or the first block of the
construction is hard to put, after that when we have "something" then
improve it is easier! Please try to write the first draft. :)
At the end I want to write a phrase from a song from Pink Floyd:
"Together we stand, divided we fall" :)
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
P.S: I dont want to fight with nobody here and I am not trying to attack
nobody. Please take my message in the most good sense. Really we need to
work together :)
Re: Personality in docs (Was: Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?)
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>.
> I don't mind making the docs a little more "pofessional sounding" but
> I'd really, really hate to see the personality stripped from them as
> well. We're all people here, not robots. I'd rather read someone's
> genuine opinion about why Cocoon kicks so much ass instead of reading
> about the latest buzzword of the day.
Great one!
Antonio Gallardo
Re: Personality in docs (Was: Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?)
Posted by Boon Hian Tek <bt...@pdxbtek.dyndns.org>.
Tony Collen wrote:
> I don't mind making the docs a little more "pofessional sounding" but
> I'd really, really hate to see the personality stripped from them as
> well. We're all people here, not robots. I'd rather read someone's
> genuine opinion about why Cocoon kicks so much ass instead of reading
> about the latest buzzword of the day.
+1
Re: Personality in docs (Was: Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?)
Posted by Giacomo Pati <gi...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Tony Collen wrote:
> I don't mind making the docs a little more "pofessional sounding" but
> I'd really, really hate to see the personality stripped from them as
> well. We're all people here, not robots. I'd rather read someone's
> genuine opinion about why Cocoon kicks so much ass instead of reading
> about the latest buzzword of the day.
I absolutely share your oppinion.
--
Giacomo Pati
Otego AG, Switzerland - http://www.otego.com
Orixo, the XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
Re: Personality in docs (Was: Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?)
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le Mardi, 26 aoû 2003, à 18:53 Europe/Zurich, Tony Collen a écrit :
> ...I don't mind making the docs a little more "pofessional sounding"
> but I'd really, really hate to see the personality stripped from them
> as well. We're all people here, not robots. I'd rather read
> someone's genuine opinion about why Cocoon kicks so much ass instead
> of reading about the latest buzzword of the day....
+1
-Bertrand
Personality in docs (Was: Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?)
Posted by Tony Collen <co...@umn.edu>.
Roger I Martin PhD wrote:
> Right now INSTALL.txt needs some things cut out of it:
[stuff-snipped]
I'd like to point out a few Theses of the Cluetrain which apply here:
14. Corporations do not speak in the same voice as these new networked conversations. To their
intended online audiences, companies sound hollow, flat, literally inhuman.
15. In just a few more years, the current homogenized "voice" of business—the sound of mission
statements and brochures—will seem as contrived and artificial as the language of the 18th century
French court.
16. Already, companies that speak in the language of the pitch, the dog-and-pony show, are no longer
speaking to anyone.
17. Companies that assume online markets are the same markets that used to watch their ads on
television are kidding themselves.
18. Companies that don't realize their markets are now networked person-to-person, getting smarter
as a result and deeply joined in conversation are missing their best opportunity.
19. Companies can now communicate with their markets directly. If they blow it, it could be their
last chance.
20. Companies need to realize their markets are often laughing. At them.
21. Companies need to lighten up and take themselves less seriously. They need to get a sense of humor.
22. Getting a sense of humor does not mean putting some jokes on the corporate web site. Rather, it
requires big values, a little humility, straight talk, and a genuine point of view.
I don't mind making the docs a little more "pofessional sounding" but I'd really, really hate to see
the personality stripped from them as well. We're all people here, not robots. I'd rather read
someone's genuine opinion about why Cocoon kicks so much ass instead of reading about the latest
buzzword of the day.
Tony
Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?
Posted by Michael Wechner <mi...@wyona.org>.
Roger I Martin PhD wrote:
> Hi Antonio,
>
> At the moment I'm checking out Lenya by CVS so I can understand it's impact
> on the use of Cocoon and webapp design. Then I'll get back to you on what
> Cocoon's INSTALL.txt needs added.
with regard to your recent emails better don't look at the Lenya
INSTALL.txt ;-) it's basically a white sheet ...
... but any help on improving them is very welcome (especially
generating them out of some XML)
Michael
>
> Right now INSTALL.txt needs some things cut out of it:
> <snip>
> Let me guess: you don't like to read verbose docs, right?
> Great, this file is for you.
> </snip>
> <snip>
>
> your mileage may vary depending on your shell, but you know how to setup
> environments, right?
> </snip>
> <snip>
> That's it!
>
>
> Now, you have two choices:
> a) close this file and try to hack something out by yourself
> b) keep reading
> Go ahead and choose option a), but don't complain if you can't figure out
> how
> to use the cocoon build system for your needs.
>
>
>
>
> Still here? good. You won't regret it.
> </snip>
> <snip>
>
> All right, that's it for now.
> Happy hacking with Cocoon.
> </snip>
>
> Would you rather a CVS patch that removes these?
>
> Typos and English troubles are not a problem. A good editor can solve
> those quickly. It's coyness, obnoxious "playing" with people new to Cocoon
> in the first documents they read that lowers first impressions.
>
> The overview on http://cocoon.apache.org/ gives a good first impression.
> Where is the person who wrote it?
>
> br,
>
> Roger
>
> BTW, it is fine for email between developers to have typos, English problems
> and "self expression" :-) One thing I do note is many take snips out of
> other people's email to express themselves about said snippet and lose the
> context like a bunch of quibbling Biblical "scholars":-) Perhaps someday
> instead of using email lists we can use a Content Management System where we
> can link to reference a particular piece of writing we're wanting to
> discuss.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Antonio Gallardo" <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>
> To: <de...@cocoon.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:32 PM
> Subject: Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?
>
>
>
>>Hi Roger:
>>
>>Can you write the intro as you suggested? Please don't take this question
>>in the bad sense. I think all of us can help to make a better Cocoon. We
>>are a community with a common interest called Cocoon framework.
>>
>>I meet Cocoon a year ago (I still consider my self a newbie in Cocoon).
>>>From my point of view, there has been an amazing improvement in the Cocoon
>>documentation: Currently, we have 3 printed books released in less than a
>>year, a nice (still growing) wiki site with many info and helps docs to
>>read and at the end but not the last important a better official cocoon
>>documentation. A year ago there was nothing like that, just some docs in
>>the official cocoon site and a handfull articles somewhere in the vast
>>Internet. It is really amazing how long the project growed in the last
>>year. I saw that. Well, as usual, nothing is perfect and because of that
>>we are still working to improve Cocoon framework every day. I encourage
>>you to join us an helps in this wonderful project.
>>
>>>From my own experience in the project I learned that:
>>
>>"Critics are always welcomed, because helps to improve the framework. But
>>solutions are better welcomed".
>>
>>By solutions I mean a patch that address a particular problem someone see.
>>Remember that this is a multi cultural community that try to use a unique
>>language (english). The skill of written english that members use is very
>>diferent. From totally beginners to people with great skill to write
>>english. This is a fact. Take my own example:
>>
>>To write this mail I need more than 30 mins. I need to review what I wrote
>>to make sure if my message carries what I mean and I know still there are
>>many errors and sometimes after my own review my message is not carried in
>>the lines. But is is not because I am a stupid, this is because simply my
>>mother language is not english.
>>
>>For there reasons, I think we need people with better skill of written
>>english to help us to write and improve the docs. And if this is your case
>>I encourage you to helps us to write your requested INSTALL.txt :)
>>
>>As usual, when there is nothing, the first draft or the first block of the
>>construction is hard to put, after that when we have "something" then
>>improve it is easier! Please try to write the first draft. :)
>>
>>At the end I want to write a phrase from a song from Pink Floyd:
>>
>>"Together we stand, divided we fall" :)
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>
>>Antonio Gallardo
>>
>>P.S: I dont want to fight with nobody here and I am not trying to attack
>>nobody. Please take my message in the most good sense. Really we need to
>>work together :)
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Michael Wechner
Wyona Ltd. - Open Source Content Management - Apache Lenya
http://www.wyona.com http://cocoon.apache.org/lenya/
michael.wechner@wyona.com michi@apache.org
Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
On Monday, Aug 25, 2003, at 16:25 Europe/Rome, Roger I Martin PhD wrote:
> The overview on http://cocoon.apache.org/ gives a good first
> impression.
> Where is the person who wrote it?
It's the same person: me
--
Stefano.
Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?
Posted by Roger I Martin PhD <hy...@hypernexinc.com>.
Hi Antonio,
At the moment I'm checking out Lenya by CVS so I can understand it's impact
on the use of Cocoon and webapp design. Then I'll get back to you on what
Cocoon's INSTALL.txt needs added.
Right now INSTALL.txt needs some things cut out of it:
<snip>
Let me guess: you don't like to read verbose docs, right?
Great, this file is for you.
</snip>
<snip>
your mileage may vary depending on your shell, but you know how to setup
environments, right?
</snip>
<snip>
That's it!
Now, you have two choices:
a) close this file and try to hack something out by yourself
b) keep reading
Go ahead and choose option a), but don't complain if you can't figure out
how
to use the cocoon build system for your needs.
Still here? good. You won't regret it.
</snip>
<snip>
All right, that's it for now.
Happy hacking with Cocoon.
</snip>
Would you rather a CVS patch that removes these?
Typos and English troubles are not a problem. A good editor can solve
those quickly. It's coyness, obnoxious "playing" with people new to Cocoon
in the first documents they read that lowers first impressions.
The overview on http://cocoon.apache.org/ gives a good first impression.
Where is the person who wrote it?
br,
Roger
BTW, it is fine for email between developers to have typos, English problems
and "self expression" :-) One thing I do note is many take snips out of
other people's email to express themselves about said snippet and lose the
context like a bunch of quibbling Biblical "scholars":-) Perhaps someday
instead of using email lists we can use a Content Management System where we
can link to reference a particular piece of writing we're wanting to
discuss.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Antonio Gallardo" <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>
To: <de...@cocoon.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?
> Hi Roger:
>
> Can you write the intro as you suggested? Please don't take this question
> in the bad sense. I think all of us can help to make a better Cocoon. We
> are a community with a common interest called Cocoon framework.
>
> I meet Cocoon a year ago (I still consider my self a newbie in Cocoon).
> From my point of view, there has been an amazing improvement in the Cocoon
> documentation: Currently, we have 3 printed books released in less than a
> year, a nice (still growing) wiki site with many info and helps docs to
> read and at the end but not the last important a better official cocoon
> documentation. A year ago there was nothing like that, just some docs in
> the official cocoon site and a handfull articles somewhere in the vast
> Internet. It is really amazing how long the project growed in the last
> year. I saw that. Well, as usual, nothing is perfect and because of that
> we are still working to improve Cocoon framework every day. I encourage
> you to join us an helps in this wonderful project.
>
> From my own experience in the project I learned that:
>
> "Critics are always welcomed, because helps to improve the framework. But
> solutions are better welcomed".
>
> By solutions I mean a patch that address a particular problem someone see.
> Remember that this is a multi cultural community that try to use a unique
> language (english). The skill of written english that members use is very
> diferent. From totally beginners to people with great skill to write
> english. This is a fact. Take my own example:
>
> To write this mail I need more than 30 mins. I need to review what I wrote
> to make sure if my message carries what I mean and I know still there are
> many errors and sometimes after my own review my message is not carried in
> the lines. But is is not because I am a stupid, this is because simply my
> mother language is not english.
>
> For there reasons, I think we need people with better skill of written
> english to help us to write and improve the docs. And if this is your case
> I encourage you to helps us to write your requested INSTALL.txt :)
>
> As usual, when there is nothing, the first draft or the first block of the
> construction is hard to put, after that when we have "something" then
> improve it is easier! Please try to write the first draft. :)
>
> At the end I want to write a phrase from a song from Pink Floyd:
>
> "Together we stand, divided we fall" :)
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Antonio Gallardo
>
> P.S: I dont want to fight with nobody here and I am not trying to attack
> nobody. Please take my message in the most good sense. Really we need to
> work together :)
>
>
>
Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>.
Steven Noels dijo:
> Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>
>> P.S: I dont want to fight with nobody here and I am not trying to
>> attack nobody. Please take my message in the most good sense. Really
>> we need to work together :)
>
> ... and your relentless efforts at such are very much appreciated,
> Antonio!
Thanks Steven :)
Antonio
>
> </Steven>
> --
> Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
> Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
> Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
> stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: 'Production' build for Cocoon?
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Antonio Gallardo wrote:
> P.S: I dont want to fight with nobody here and I am not trying to attack
> nobody. Please take my message in the most good sense. Really we need to
> work together :)
... and your relentless efforts at such are very much appreciated, Antonio!
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org