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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> on 2003/04/09 14:53:51 UTC
[PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
I'm not on the Cocoon PMC, but would like to move swiftly along with the
transition.
So, here is the current list of "candidates" to succeed to Stefano in his
role as a chair of the Cocoon PMC (in alphabetical order):
- Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>
nominated by: Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>
- Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>
nominated by: self
- Sylvain Wallez
nominated by: Torsten Curdt <tc...@dff.st>
(Sylvain declined)
- Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>
nominated by: Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>
And personally I would like to add to this list:
- Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>
nominated by: Pier Fumagalli <pi...@apache.org>
Regarding the voting process, I suggest to use the Apache SSH-based voting
process outlined by Dirk (secret ballot, as we're voting on people). We'll
need two volunteers to check the votes (PMC members, but not candidate to
the role) and count them at the end.
Regarding the voting timeline, I would suggest to open it up next Monday
April the 14th at 12:00 noon GMT, and to leave it running until the Monday
April the 21st at 12:00 noon GMT (7 days exactly).
The only "problem" with this timeline is that the last few days fall over
Easter, and I don't know if people here are going to be on vacation.
Pier
RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
>
> You did, why doesn't anyone read the /few/ mails I write?!? ;-P
>
Sorry. Really. Truely. It won't happen again. I promise. :-).
> Ok, joking :-))) , here it is:
>
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104801348501009&w=2
>
>
Thanks.
Matthew
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Matthew Langham wrote, On 09/04/2003 18.14:
>Just what is the actual value of a PMC Chair? I guess I
> must have missed this the first time round - what does the Chair actually do
> and why is it currently mixed concerns? I would like to understand the role,
> responsibilities and possible conflicts of a PMC Chair before going any
> further with this. And I can't find any quick pointers on this also - but I
> may just have missed them.
You did, why doesn't anyone read the /few/ mails I write?!? ;-P
Ok, joking :-))) , here it is:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=104801348501009&w=2
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Matthew Langham wrote:
<snip/>
>
> Ok, I'll bite :-). Just what is the actual value of a PMC Chair? I guess I
> must have missed this the first time round - what does the Chair actually do
> and why is it currently mixed concerns? I would like to understand the role,
> responsibilities and possible conflicts of a PMC Chair before going any
> further with this. And I can't find any quick pointers on this also - but I
> may just have missed them.
>
> I think this topic is relevant both from a voting decision as also from a
> possible nominee one.
>
> And if I happen to be the only one who doesn't understand what role the
> Chair has - then I apologize for the bandwidth.
The email that Stefano sent, to invite all current committers to
form the PMC, had a description of the chair role.
Fwd: Participation in the Cocoon PMC
2002-12-13
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=103976687224347
<clip>
7) what is the role of the PMC chair?
mostly the role of a secretary, not one of a dictator, even if
benevolent. the PMC will be like a round table where everybody
counts as one. the chair is required by the bylaws and will be
in charge of communication with the board to avoid the board
having to deal with tons of people they might not even know.
It's mostly an organization detail but should *not* impact how
the PMC is run.
8) what if shit happens?
the PMC will try to resolve it as good and as fast as it can.
If not possible, the PMC will ask the board for advice.
But in general, the PMC should try to be as self-sufficient
as possible.
</clip>
RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
> elected. Honestly, now that Stefano has expressed his willingness to
> proceed with technical innovation rather than the legal stuff, I think
> it has been made clear what the actual value of all this is (please
> don't read this as belittling - just as a reality check).
>
Ok, I'll bite :-). Just what is the actual value of a PMC Chair? I guess I
must have missed this the first time round - what does the Chair actually do
and why is it currently mixed concerns? I would like to understand the role,
responsibilities and possible conflicts of a PMC Chair before going any
further with this. And I can't find any quick pointers on this also - but I
may just have missed them.
I think this topic is relevant both from a voting decision as also from a
possible nominee one.
And if I happen to be the only one who doesn't understand what role the
Chair has - then I apologize for the bandwidth.
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Cocoon book:
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Weblogs:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
=================================================================
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 9/04/2003 15:25 Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Torsten Curdt" <tc...@dff.st> wrote:
>
>
>>>Regarding the voting process, I suggest to use the Apache SSH-based voting
>>>process outlined by Dirk (secret ballot, as we're voting on people). We'll
>>>need two volunteers to check the votes (PMC members, but not candidate to
>>>the role) and count them at the end.
>>
>>...do you have a link on "ssh-based voting"? Where did Dirk explain it?
>
>
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=104978862718775&w=2
I understand this requires apmail access - Pier, would you be able to
set up the required voting list for us?
>>>Regarding the voting timeline, I would suggest to open it up next Monday
>>>April the 14th at 12:00 noon GMT, and to leave it running until the Monday
>>>April the 21st at 12:00 noon GMT (7 days exactly).
>>>
>>>The only "problem" with this timeline is that the last few days fall over
>>>Easter, and I don't know if people here are going to be on vacation.
>>
>>Hm.. yes :-(
>>
>>...so either we start earlier or later. I'd prefer starting earlier.
>>If that's ok as it shortens the time for further nominations.
>
>
> That's up to you guys to decide, I can only give suggestions :-) I love the
> fact that I'm not in the PMC so that I don't have to "decide" on stuff! :-)
My suggestion would be to hold PMC chair elections from 21-28 April
(noon GMT). That way, we are still able to decide on the term duration,
and candidates can step forward and confirm their candidature.
On a total of 48 possible committers and some 25'ish PMC members, one
candidate more or less shouldn't be a problem. In the end, I would
really like to see this become a 'no fuzz' thing where every committer
who wants to, gets to do it once.
Come on people: I'm getting the feeling some of us are looking at each
other, and are afraid to proceed or talk freely in order not to hurt
each other's feelings.
Somebody told me off-list that it was 'brave' to step up and post a
candidature, since there's a chance involved with that of _not_ being
elected. Honestly, now that Stefano has expressed his willingness to
proceed with technical innovation rather than the legal stuff, I think
it has been made clear what the actual value of all this is (please
don't read this as belittling - just as a reality check).
Cheers,
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Torsten Curdt" <tc...@dff.st> wrote:
>> Regarding the voting process, I suggest to use the Apache SSH-based voting
>> process outlined by Dirk (secret ballot, as we're voting on people). We'll
>> need two volunteers to check the votes (PMC members, but not candidate to
>> the role) and count them at the end.
>
> ...do you have a link on "ssh-based voting"? Where did Dirk explain it?
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=104978862718775&w=2
"Dirk-Willem van Gulik" <di...@webweaving.org> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> You may want to consider a closed, rather than an open ballot. This
> may improve quality. See the 'voter' code in ~voter for instructions of
> how to use.
>> Regarding the voting timeline, I would suggest to open it up next Monday
>> April the 14th at 12:00 noon GMT, and to leave it running until the Monday
>> April the 21st at 12:00 noon GMT (7 days exactly).
>>
>> The only "problem" with this timeline is that the last few days fall over
>> Easter, and I don't know if people here are going to be on vacation.
>
> Hm.. yes :-(
>
> ...so either we start earlier or later. I'd prefer starting earlier.
> If that's ok as it shortens the time for further nominations.
That's up to you guys to decide, I can only give suggestions :-) I love the
fact that I'm not in the PMC so that I don't have to "decide" on stuff! :-)
Pier
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le Mercredi, 9 avr 2003, à 15:06 Europe/Zurich, Torsten Curdt a écrit :
>
> ...do you have a link on "ssh-based voting"? Where did Dirk explain it?
Dirk's message is
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=104978862718775&w=2
and the explanation that he pointed to is
http://www.apache.org/~dirkx/pmc-email-ballot-example.txt
-Bertrand
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Torsten Curdt <tc...@dff.st>.
> Regarding the voting process, I suggest to use the Apache SSH-based voting
> process outlined by Dirk (secret ballot, as we're voting on people). We'll
> need two volunteers to check the votes (PMC members, but not candidate to
> the role) and count them at the end.
...do you have a link on "ssh-based voting"? Where did Dirk explain it?
> Regarding the voting timeline, I would suggest to open it up next Monday
> April the 14th at 12:00 noon GMT, and to leave it running until the Monday
> April the 21st at 12:00 noon GMT (7 days exactly).
>
> The only "problem" with this timeline is that the last few days fall over
> Easter, and I don't know if people here are going to be on vacation.
Hm.. yes :-(
...so either we start earlier or later. I'd prefer starting earlier.
If that's ok as it shortens the time for further nominations.
--
Torsten
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by ivelin <iv...@apache.org>.
>
> And personally I would like to add to this list:
>
> - Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>
> nominated by: Pier Fumagalli <pi...@apache.org>
I was going to propose Vadim as well.
He's been with this project forever and has been tirelessly helping both
users and developers while making contributions himself.
>
>
> Regarding the voting process, I suggest to use the Apache SSH-based voting
where are the instructions?
Ivelin
RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Robert Koberg <ro...@koberg.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:pier@betaversion.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 4:42 PM
> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
>
> On 9/4/03 21:36, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Knowing Pier, he won't be part of it just to be able to say "you people
> > in the PMC. :-)
>
> That's for sure... Ever red "Nineteen Eighty-Four" by George Orwell? :-)
> :-)
Wasn't that an Apple commercial :) Events seem more like Animal Farm where
"everyone is equal, except some are more equal than others..." and perhaps
"the pigs are eating at the masters table - the pigs are eating at the
masters table!"
Paraphrasically yours,
-Rob :)
>
> Pier
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
On 9/4/03 21:36, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <st...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Knowing Pier, he won't be part of it just to be able to say "you people
> in the PMC. :-)
That's for sure... Ever red "Nineteen Eighty-Four" by George Orwell? :-) :-)
Pier
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Vadim hasn't confirmed yet, and both you (off-list) and Sylvain
> (on-list) have indicated not to be willing to take up the chair role ATM.
>
> So in order to proceed, Vadim and Matthew (CC-ed) should come up with
> a statement, and Pier (would-you-pretty-please?) should start setting
> up the infrastructure for the vote.
I was thinking a bit... I agree with Matthew's email, and think that at
the moment <Steven/>'s is better chair candidate than me; he is more
vocal in Apache matters and have better people skills; so I pass this time.
Vadim
> We also need some volunteers for the vote tallying.
>
> </Steven>
RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
> So in order to proceed, Vadim and Matthew (CC-ed) should come up with a
> statement, and Pier (would-you-pretty-please?) should start setting up
> the infrastructure for the vote.
Ok, here's my statement: I was kindly nominated for which I am honored.
The role of PMC Chair is something that I would certainly be interested in
doing - at a later stage. And I have indeed thought long and hard about
campaigning for the position.
At the moment I feel that the PMC chair should be both someone with a strong
Cocoon background and someone who is very vocal on Apache matters. We are a
young PMC and we still need to find our place in "the family that is
Apache". I'm sure this will not be easy for the first few months - and as we
have experienced - this will most certainly be frustrating.
However, we should also not underestimate the PMC Chair role - which is sure
to be more visible - and more closely watched - than the normal dwarfs deep
down in the mines :-). All the more so - because the new PMC Chair will be
compared to the previous Chair. Not easy to follow for sure.
So, next time, perhaps.
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Cocoon book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
Weblogs:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
=================================================================
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RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
Sorry, meant for cocoon-dev.
Matthew
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Langham [mailto:mlangham@s-und-n.de]
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 1:49 PM
> To: Cocoon-Users@Xml. Apache. Org
> Subject: RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
>
>
> > So in order to proceed, Vadim and Matthew (CC-ed) should come up with a
> > statement, and Pier (would-you-pretty-please?) should start setting up
> > the infrastructure for the vote.
>
> Ok, here's my statement: I was kindly nominated for which I am honored.
>
> The role of PMC Chair is something that I would certainly be interested in
> doing - at a later stage. And I have indeed thought long and hard about
> campaigning for the position.
>
> At the moment I feel that the PMC chair should be both someone
> with a strong
> Cocoon background and someone who is very vocal on Apache
> matters. We are a
> young PMC and we still need to find our place in "the family that is
> Apache". I'm sure this will not be easy for the first few months
> - and as we
> have experienced - this will most certainly be frustrating.
>
> However, we should also not underestimate the PMC Chair role -
> which is sure
> to be more visible - and more closely watched - than the normal
> dwarfs deep
> down in the mines :-). All the more so - because the new PMC Chair will be
> compared to the previous Chair. Not easy to follow for sure.
>
> So, next time, perhaps.
>
> Matthew
>
> --
> Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
> =================================================================
> Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
> Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Cocoon book:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
> Weblogs:
> http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
> http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
> =================================================================
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: cocoon-users-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: cocoon-users-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
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RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Argyn <ak...@cox.net>.
only one's left? Vadim? u need more peole in the ballot, to make it more
respectable
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew Langham [mailto:mlangham@s-und-n.de]
> Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 7:49 AM
> To: Cocoon-Users@Xml. Apache. Org
> Subject: RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
>
>
> > So in order to proceed, Vadim and Matthew (CC-ed) should
> come up with a
> > statement, and Pier (would-you-pretty-please?) should start
> setting up
> > the infrastructure for the vote.
>
> So, next time, perhaps.
>
> Matthew
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RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
> So in order to proceed, Vadim and Matthew (CC-ed) should come up with a
> statement, and Pier (would-you-pretty-please?) should start setting up
> the infrastructure for the vote.
Ok, here's my statement: I was kindly nominated for which I am honored.
The role of PMC Chair is something that I would certainly be interested in
doing - at a later stage. And I have indeed thought long and hard about
campaigning for the position.
At the moment I feel that the PMC chair should be both someone with a strong
Cocoon background and someone who is very vocal on Apache matters. We are a
young PMC and we still need to find our place in "the family that is
Apache". I'm sure this will not be easy for the first few months - and as we
have experienced - this will most certainly be frustrating.
However, we should also not underestimate the PMC Chair role - which is sure
to be more visible - and more closely watched - than the normal dwarfs deep
down in the mines :-). All the more so - because the new PMC Chair will be
compared to the previous Chair. Not easy to follow for sure.
So, next time, perhaps.
Matthew
--
Open Source Group Cocoon { Consulting, Training, Projects }
=================================================================
Matthew Langham, S&N AG, Klingenderstrasse 5, D-33100 Paderborn
Tel:+49-5251-1581-30 mlangham@s-und-n.de - http://www.s-und-n.de
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Cocoon book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0735712352/needacake-20
Weblogs:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0103021/
http://www.oreillynet.com/weblogs/author/1014
=================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Steven Noels" <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> So in order to proceed, Vadim and Matthew (CC-ed) should come up with a
> statement, and Pier (would-you-pretty-please?) should start setting up
> the infrastructure for the vote.
Unfortunately (given Easter) this week my time is squeezed between more work
and a visit to the parents down in Italy... I most definitely won't be able
to help if you guys want to start collecting votes on the 21st...
Sorry :-(
Pier
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 14/04/2003 8:35 Carsten Ziegeler wrote:
> Hi,
>
> what is the current status?
>
> Carsten
We need to come up with a definitive list of candidates, and I propose
to proceed with voting on the 21st (-> 28th).
As I understand it now, some of the nominated people would be dropping
their candidature, and this should be made explicit on the list.
So far, I have seen (self-)nominations of:
- Carsten
- Sylvain
- Vadim
- Matthew
- myself
Vadim hasn't confirmed yet, and both you (off-list) and Sylvain
(on-list) have indicated not to be willing to take up the chair role ATM.
So in order to proceed, Vadim and Matthew (CC-ed) should come up with a
statement, and Pier (would-you-pretty-please?) should start setting up
the infrastructure for the vote.
We also need some volunteers for the vote tallying.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>.
Hi,
what is the current status?
Carsten
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
on 4/9/03 8:48 PM Steven Noels wrote:
> On 9/04/2003 19:56 Andrew Savory wrote:
>
>
>>Is it enough to notify the current Chair or PMC that I'd like to
>>participate?
>
>
> The (current) PMC chair has the authority to change composition of the
> PMC at will, without consultation of the board.
>
> That being said, the Chair will most likely check whether the existing
> PMC members are OK with your addition. We had already the general
> consensus that all committers can be PMC member if they want, the mass
> nomination some time ago was simply a bootstrap.
>
> In case there would be a formal vote on your addition, here's my +1
> already. :-)
I already apologized with Ivelin privatley for forgetting to add him to
the list that was ratified by the board. I'm sorry, dude, I really
wanted to add you but then too many things happened and that was pushed
down my lightyears-long todo pipe. :-( Hope this didn't cause any bad
feelings.
moreover, I would suggest the PMC to write something in the charter that
says that all committers become automatically PMC members, unless they
don't want to (for whatever reason)
Knowing Pier, he won't be part of it just to be able to say "you people
in the PMC. :-)
Anyway, first thing to do should be to have a private PMC. i would
humbly suggest *NOT* to use it, though. Only to use it for strictly
private things like security holes reports, patent issues or anything
that would scare people.
for anything related to the project which should *NOT* necessarely be
secret, *THIS* list is the one to use, just use [PMC] in front of your
email titles.
Things left to do by the PMC are:
- The PMC should clarify the intention of this project which is, as
today, recursive in nature, thus unbinding.
- ratify the voting process.
- come up with the charter
- solve the copyright issues that remain on the table
That should be it. It's more or less the dump of my PMC-related todo list.
Hope this helps.
--
Stefano.
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 10/04/2003 5:29 Sam Ruby wrote:
> Steven Noels wrote:
>
>> On 9/04/2003 19:56 Andrew Savory wrote:
>>
>>> Is it enough to notify the current Chair or PMC that I'd like to
>>> participate?
>>
>>
>> The (current) PMC chair has the authority to change composition of the
>> PMC at will, without consultation of the board.
>
>
> False. It used to be that PMC composition changes required a board
> resolution. This was recently changed to merely requiring the PMC chair
> to notify the board of the changes, with the proviso that such changes
> are not effective until 72 hours after an acknowledgement of the receipt
> of such change has been made.
Sorry. I stand corrected - I meant 'prior' consultation. I was aware of
the fact PMC recomposition was now in the hands of the PMC itself, but
forgot to mention the 72 hour grace period. I agree my phrasing was
subject to interpretation - excuse me for that.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> On 9/04/2003 19:56 Andrew Savory wrote:
>
>> Is it enough to notify the current Chair or PMC that I'd like to
>> participate?
>
> The (current) PMC chair has the authority to change composition of the
> PMC at will, without consultation of the board.
False. It used to be that PMC composition changes required a board
resolution. This was recently changed to merely requiring the PMC chair
to notify the board of the changes, with the proviso that such changes
are not effective until 72 hours after an acknowledgement of the receipt
of such change has been made.
See R1 in:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2002/board_minutes_2002_12_18.txt
- Sam Ruby
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 9/04/2003 19:56 Andrew Savory wrote:
> Is it enough to notify the current Chair or PMC that I'd like to
> participate?
The (current) PMC chair has the authority to change composition of the
PMC at will, without consultation of the board.
That being said, the Chair will most likely check whether the existing
PMC members are OK with your addition. We had already the general
consensus that all committers can be PMC member if they want, the mass
nomination some time ago was simply a bootstrap.
In case there would be a formal vote on your addition, here's my +1
already. :-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Andrew Savory <an...@luminas.co.uk>.
On Wed, 9 Apr 2003, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> Regarding the voting process
I have a question. Is voting open to committers or just PMC members? If
the latter, how do I go about becoming a PMC member? Is it enough to
notify the current Chair or PMC that I'd like to participate?
Andrew.
--
Andrew Savory Email: andrew@luminas.co.uk
Managing Director Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Sylvain Wallez" <sy...@anyware-tech.com> wrote:
> Preliminary to that, we should make a list of people that *explicitely*
> run for the chair.
That is for the PMC members to do...
> Up to now, only Steven did it. Matthew and Vadim haven't said their
> intention, and Matthew told us that Carsten was interested, but we got
> nothing from him, probably because he's currently offline.
I am not in the Cocoon PMC and therefore cannot propose any formal vote on
the chair... To re-state my position, as a friend of Stefano, I simply don't
want to drag this on for weeks, so, I'm just trying to summarize what was
said in the discussion.
I am only acting as an annoying reminder that this should be tackled by the
Cocoon PMC, nothing else! :-)
Pier
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>I'm not on the Cocoon PMC, but would like to move swiftly along with the
>transition.
>
>So, here is the current list of "candidates" to succeed to Stefano in his
>role as a chair of the Cocoon PMC (in alphabetical order):
>
>- Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>
> nominated by: Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>
>
>- Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>
> nominated by: self
>
>- Sylvain Wallez
> nominated by: Torsten Curdt <tc...@dff.st>
> (Sylvain declined)
>
>- Carsten Ziegeler <cz...@s-und-n.de>
> nominated by: Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>
>
>And personally I would like to add to this list:
>
>- Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>
> nominated by: Pier Fumagalli <pi...@apache.org>
>
>
>Regarding the voting process, I suggest to use the Apache SSH-based voting
>process outlined by Dirk (secret ballot, as we're voting on people). We'll
>need two volunteers to check the votes (PMC members, but not candidate to
>the role) and count them at the end.
>
Preliminary to that, we should make a list of people that *explicitely*
run for the chair.
Up to now, only Steven did it. Matthew and Vadim haven't said their
intention, and Matthew told us that Carsten was interested, but we got
nothing from him, probably because he's currently offline.
Also, as Torsten, I haven't found about this ssh vote thing...
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Vadim Gritsenko wrote, On 24/04/2003 0.14:
> (I was just thinking about the same subject today! :)
...
> Let's get the ball rolling:
> I'm hereby voting for the PMC chair candidate Steven, as he is lesser of
> two evils ;-P
> +1
Initially I didn't feel that I wanted Steven as a PMC chair. I proposed
others that I felt were more indicated to represent Cocoon.
Hmmm, represent != lead...
As time passed by, and as Steven started "acting" like a chair and doing
boring admin stuff, I remembered how it was in Avalon, and how I managed
to become chair of a project while being the least involved in its
coding. Similary to me, Steven is bound a lot to Cocoon success, but
much less in its coding.
Is it that it's natural for humans to create politicians?
(this is half a joke, half food for thought)
Cocoon needs coders, designers, docers and "admins". Steven does it also
for work, and I think that probably he may do it well here too.
Look at Sam Ruby, he is IMHO good at managing Jakarta, but does he still
code there?
A funny phrase strikes me now: "Do you want to leave Steven without
anything to do? Heck, let him do something! ;-)"
So, based on the above reasoned thoughts, and on the fact that if Steven
acts strangely we will kick his soul out ;-) , I vote +1 for Steven.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Vadim Gritsenko <va...@verizon.net>.
(I was just thinking about the same subject today! :)
Steven Noels wrote:
...
> My interpretation would be that we vote, and seek ratification of our
> newly elected PMC chair with the board.
Fair enough.
> Either case, if we are left with only one candidate, I doubt whether
> we need private ballots as Dirk & Pier suggested and might as well
> hold the vote over here or on the PMC list. I'm fairly thick-skinned
> and would honestly enjoy your comments, remarks, encouragements or
> warnings. :-)
Let's get the ball rolling:
I'm hereby voting for the PMC chair candidate Steven, as he is lesser of
two evils ;-P
+1
Vadim
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 24/04/2003 9:31 David Crossley wrote:
> Andrew Savory wrote:
> <snip/>
>
>>(uh, can I vote as a committer but not a PMC? If not,
>>please add me to the PMC.)
>
>
> When the Cocoon project recently gained a PMC, then all
> current committers were invited to be on it. A few new
> committers have been employed since then. Until we sort
> out what is required to also "add you to the PMC", then
> perhaps you should just subscribe to the pmc mail list
> using your apache.org email address.
yep
> As far as i know, all committers are to be PMC members
> unless they choose not to be.
fyi: the current PMC member roll should be reflected in the
committers-only CVS module:
:ext:user@cvs.apache.org:/home/cvs/committers, board/committee-info.txt
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
David Crossley wrote, On 24/04/2003 9.31:
> Andrew Savory wrote:
> <snip/>
>
>>(uh, can I vote as a committer but not a PMC? If not,
>>please add me to the PMC.)
>
>
> When the Cocoon project recently gained a PMC, then all
> current committers were invited to be on it. A few new
> committers have been employed since then. Until we sort
> out what is required to also "add you to the PMC",
The PMC Chair must inform the board that there are new PMC members, and
the board has some time to eventually challenge that IIRC. This was one
of the last board decisions (look at the board meeting minutes for more
info).
> then
> perhaps you should just subscribe to the pmc mail list
> using your apache.org email address.
>
> As far as i know, all committers are to be PMC members
> unless they choose not to be.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by David Crossley <cr...@indexgeo.com.au>.
Andrew Savory wrote:
<snip/>
>
> (uh, can I vote as a committer but not a PMC? If not,
> please add me to the PMC.)
When the Cocoon project recently gained a PMC, then all
current committers were invited to be on it. A few new
committers have been employed since then. Until we sort
out what is required to also "add you to the PMC", then
perhaps you should just subscribe to the pmc mail list
using your apache.org email address.
As far as i know, all committers are to be PMC members
unless they choose not to be.
--David
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Andrew Savory <an...@luminas.co.uk>.
On Wed, 23 Apr 2003, Steven Noels wrote:
> Either case, if we are left with only one candidate, I doubt whether we
> need private ballots as Dirk & Pier suggested and might as well hold the
> vote over here or on the PMC list. I'm fairly thick-skinned and would
> honestly enjoy your comments, remarks, encouragements or warnings. :-)
Here's my +1 for you, Steven. Should we move this to a [PMC] [vote]
thread?
(uh, can I vote as a committer but not a PMC? If not, please add me to the
PMC.)
Andrew.
--
Andrew Savory Email: andrew@luminas.co.uk
Managing Director Tel: +44 (0)870 741 6658
Luminas Internet Applications Fax: +44 (0)700 598 1135
This is not an official statement or order. Web: www.luminas.co.uk
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 24/04/2003 14:20 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
> If we all agree, formality is not that necessary. Votes *and*
> discussions should *always* happen on the dev list, not on the PMC list.
Yep.
> Remember guys, the PMC takes decisions in a project.
Couldn't agree more with you on this.
The PMC list is there, and can be used if matters of confidentiality
need to be discussed, and I think it is only reasonable to expect PMC
members to be subscribed to this list since the PMC (as a whole) is the
primary interface between the Cocoon project/community and the ASF org,
with the PMC chair acting as the talking puppet for administrativia.
Other than that, no black magic and just business as usual.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 24/04/2003 14:33 Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> The idea about using the PMC list for this was to take the opportunity
> to make sure people are subscribed to this list, that's all.
... and that was a good point. :-)
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le jeudi, 24 avr 2003, à 14:20 Europe/Zurich, Nicola Ken Barozzi a
écrit :
> ...If we all agree, formality is not that necessary. Votes *and*
> discussions should *always* happen on the dev list, not on the PMC
> list. In this case it seems we are doing it de-facto in the open,
> because there is some consensus, so if Steven starts a [vote] thread
> summarizing the votes so far, I have no problem with it.
Neither do I - but I think in any case at least a [VOTE] header is
needed for a thread where voting happens. Not *that much* formal but it
helps keep track of what's happening - discussing or voting.
I agree that summarizing previous votes is fine, but voting on non-vote
threads can be confusing at times ;-)
The idea about using the PMC list for this was to take the opportunity
to make sure people are subscribed to this list, that's all.
-Bertrand
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote, On 24/04/2003 14.01:
> Le jeudi, 24 avr 2003, à 13:43 Europe/Zurich, Matthew Langham a écrit :
>
>> ...
>> Everyone is giving Steven +1 which is fine - but I do think we should
>> stick
>> to some formaility.
>
>
> Agreed (note I'm being careful not to say "+1" ;-)
> I think Steven only proposed that we vote for the PMC Chair and let the
> board approve the result.
>
> From this morning's discussions I assume Steven is going to start the
> vote on the PMC list, so we should wait for this before voting.
Can I say mine? (in other words, do I ever miss the opportunity to say
mine? ;-)
If we all agree, formality is not that necessary. Votes *and*
discussions should *always* happen on the dev list, not on the PMC list.
In this case it seems we are doing it de-facto in the open, because
there is some consensus, so if Steven starts a [vote] thread summarizing
the votes so far, I have no problem with it.
Remember guys, the PMC takes decisions in a project. The PMC decides
that the PMC decides. If we decide that this voting is ok, then it's ok.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le jeudi, 24 avr 2003, à 13:43 Europe/Zurich, Matthew Langham a écrit :
> ...
> Everyone is giving Steven +1 which is fine - but I do think we should
> stick
> to some formaility.
Agreed (note I'm being careful not to say "+1" ;-)
I think Steven only proposed that we vote for the PMC Chair and let the
board approve the result.
From this morning's discussions I assume Steven is going to start the
vote on the PMC list, so we should wait for this before voting.
-Bertrand
RE: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Matthew Langham <ml...@s-und-n.de>.
> I already said all the good things I think about you being the PMC
> chair. So...
> +1 !
Sorry for being a PITA - but has some vote now been started? What did I
miss?
I mean I'm not against voting or anything but I thought it was all
complicated and stuff. Don't we at least need an official "[Vote] PMC Chair"
type message with stuff like how long the vote will be for etc.? Did I miss
that?
Everyone is giving Steven +1 which is fine - but I do think we should stick
to some formaility.
Matthew
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@anyware-tech.com>.
Steven Noels wrote:
> Either case, if we are left with only one candidate, I doubt whether
> we need private ballots as Dirk & Pier suggested and might as well
> hold the vote over here or on the PMC list. I'm fairly thick-skinned
> and would honestly enjoy your comments, remarks, encouragements or
> warnings. :-)
I already said all the good things I think about you being the PMC
chair. So...
+1 !
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez Anyware Technologies
http://www.apache.org/~sylvain http://www.anyware-tech.com
{ XML, Java, Cocoon, OpenSource }*{ Training, Consulting, Projects }
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 24/04/2003 8:33 Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> +1 on an open vote, preferably on the PMC list as a way of getting
> everyone from the PMC subscribed there.
Good point. I had to moderate the subscription requests, and I'm quite
sure not all of the PMC members are on that list (pmc@cocoon.apache.org)
I'm no list owner however, so I can't check on the current subscriber's
database.
I'll rethread and ask explicitely that current PMC members are kindly
invited to subscribe themselves.
> IMO voting should last long enough (48 hours?) to give all PMC members a
> chance to vote.
Sure. Votes can last until Monday IMHO.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Le mercredi, 23 avr 2003, à 23:53 Europe/Zurich, Steven Noels a écrit :
> ...
> My interpretation would be that we vote, and seek ratification of our
> newly elected PMC chair with the board....
I know near to nothing about PMC rules and regulations but this sounds
reasonable, I'm +1 on doing it this way.
> ...Either case, if we are left with only one candidate, I doubt
> whether we need private ballots as Dirk & Pier suggested and might as
> well hold the vote over here or on the PMC list....
+1 on an open vote, preferably on the PMC list as a way of getting
everyone from the PMC subscribed there.
IMO voting should last long enough (48 hours?) to give all PMC members
a chance to vote.
-Bertrand
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 9/04/2003 14:53 Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> The only "problem" with this timeline is that the last few days fall over
> Easter, and I don't know if people here are going to be on vacation.
... seems like all this somehow stalled in a flurry of nominations,
withdrawals and chocolat easter eggs. Fair enough.
We still need to resolve the issue of Stefano's resignation, and the
longer we wait, the more awkward this stall looks like.
Most - if not all - of the (self-)nominated chair candidates stepped
down over the past few days, apart from myself, which leaves us with the
'option' of voting in favor or against my candidature. I'm still very
much willing to volunteer for this position, with your support of
course, so that the current vacuum is filled and we are able to work in
accordance with the foundation's rules.
I've been reviewing section 6.3 and 6.4 of the ASF bylaws [1], and the
amendments to these in the 18/Dec 2002 board minutes [2], and to be
honest, it's a bit unclear to me how we should proceed, so please chime
in if you can make more out of it.
AFAIU, a PMC is originally formed 'under surveillance' and 'under the
guidance' of an officer of the foundation, who coincidentally also
becomes the chair of that PMC (hence the topleveling of Cocoon/formation
of our PMC/Stefano becoming Cocoon PMC chair & officer of the
foundation). When a chair steps away however, not much has been
specified in the bylaws on how to proceed. We might look at Avalon as an
example ([3]).
My interpretation would be that we vote, and seek ratification of our
newly elected PMC chair with the board. If bylaws need to be expanded
wrt. PMC chairman changes, at least there is a use case to work on. If
the conclusion is this is the responsability of the PMC, even better: we
will be able to set up rotation and change management rules ourselves.
Either case, if we are left with only one candidate, I doubt whether we
need private ballots as Dirk & Pier suggested and might as well hold the
vote over here or on the PMC list. I'm fairly thick-skinned and would
honestly enjoy your comments, remarks, encouragements or warnings. :-)
Cheers,
</Steven>
________
[1] http://www.apache.org/foundation/bylaws.html
[2]
http://www.apache.org/foundation/records/minutes/2002/board_minutes_2002_12_18.txt
[3] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-dev&m=104792730517875&w=2
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org
Re: [PMC] PMC Chair Nominations
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
On 9/04/2003 14:53 Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> I'm not on the Cocoon PMC, but would like to move swiftly along with the
> transition.
Agree. Thank you for taking the lead in this.
> So, here is the current list of "candidates" to succeed to Stefano in his
> role as a chair of the Cocoon PMC (in alphabetical order):
I would find it more efficient if only confirmed candidates are on the
ballot. I propose to postpone until this has been solved by explicit
yes/no's from the candidates.
Also, as my swift candidature was (and still is) mainly targeted at
trying to reduce the 'footprint' perceived by this role on our
community, I'd like to reach consensus on term duration, and a
separation between the legal/reporting tasks of the chair, and the
technical leadership (which should be owned by the community of
committers at large, as it has been in the past). The ASF bylaws are
pretty clear on the role of a chair, and we should be conscious about them.
Not meaning to mess things up, but we shouldn't trip wires by moving
recklessly.
</Steven>
--
Steven Noels http://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source, Java & XML Competence Support Center
Read my weblog at http://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.org stevenn at apache.org