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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com> on 2003/01/01 02:50:05 UTC
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
>> See the proposal here: (
>> http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewikitest.cgi?TapestryProposal ).
>> Please call a vote on accepting tapestry into the incubator and let
>> me know what the decision is.
>
> Could you or someone please post this proposal to the general@incubator
> list? ...
Here you go:
[0] rationale
Tapestry, currently housed at the SourceForge?
(http://tapestry.sf.net), is a component-based web application
framework. Tapestry falls generally into the pull-MVC model of
development.
Tapestry is designed specifically around the creation of completely
re-usable components. Components can easily be packaged into libraries
and distributed within Jar files, even when they contain assets such as
image files and stylesheets.
Tapestry is organized around an abstraction that isolates
application-specific logic from the details of the servlet API, such as
HttpSession?, request, response, URLs and query parameters.
Tapestry is highly pluggable, allowing any and all behavior to be
customized by subclassing appropriate base classes.
Tapestry is specifically not a JSP taglib. Tapestry uses its own method
for instrumenting HTML that is extremely non-obtrusive (it still
previews properly in a WYSIWYG editor). Tapestry has well specified,
separate roles for HTML producers and Java developers, and allows them
to work together without interfering with each other.
The goal of Tapestry is to shift much of the burden of developing web
applications onto the framework, and free the developer to work cleanly
and effectively without concern for the many small details of web
application development. The primary function of Tapestry is the
automatic creation of URLs by the framework, facilitating a
fine-grained dispatch model. The bird's-eye view is that, in Tapestry,
actions (such as clicking a link, or submitting a form) are associated
with a particular component and, through a simple delegation system, a
particular bit of user code. There is no global registry of actions, as
in Struts, and it's easy to create reusable components that define
their own behaviors (in terms of links or forms), independent of the
containing page.
Tapestry applications can be extremely sophisticated with surprisingly
little code.
Tapestry includes a significant amount of documentation describing its
strengths and features in great detail, available at
http://tapestry.sf.net. Live demos, a great collection of user quotes,
extensive documentation (HTML and PDF) and a recent code coverage
report are all online.
Tapestry has been an open-source project on SourceForge? since June
2000. Milestone releases (such as 2.1 in July, or the just-released
2.2) result in 6K - 7K downloads (increasing by over 1K downloads with
each successive release). Tapestry has averaged over 3000 downloads a
month during 2002, with peaks above 8K/month.
Tapestry has recently adopted Apache meritocracy rules to govern the
project. The license for Tapestry has been changed from LGPL to Apache
Software License.
[0.1] criteria
Meritocracy: Tapestry follows the Apache meritocracy rules, with a core
of committers.
Community: Tapestry has a modest, but very active community, centered
around a user's mailing list (approx. 200 members), a developer's
mailing list, and the Tapestry Wiki (http://tapestry.sf.net/wiki). The
mailing lists have an exceptionally good signal-to-noise ratio;
discussions typically revolve around planning new extensions to the
framework, creating new components and documentation, and diagnosing
developer issues. The developer's mailing list is used primarily for
voting, and for discussions about votes. A secondary project, to
provide a community component repository is now underway
(http://sf.net/projects/tacos).
Core Developers. Tapestry has an active and dedicated team of
committers. The project was founded by Howard Lewis Ship, who is
extremely dedicated to Tapestry and authored the majority of the
codebase. Richard Lewis-Shell and Mind Bridge are frequent contributors
of components and bug fixes as well as some significant extensions.
Neil Clayton and Malcolm Edgar provide code and significant amounts of
documentation. Geoff Longman has created an excellent plugin for the
Eclipse IDE (as a separate project) and provides code to keep the two
projects in sync. Several other developers contribute bug fixes,
components and documentation.
Alignment: Tapestry makes use of the ORO, commons-lang and
commons-logging packages internally.
Scope: Tapestry is entirely a server-side framework, well aligned with
the overall goals of the Jakarta project.
[0.2] warning signs
Orphaned products. Tapestry is far from orphaned, it was originally
conceived and executed specifically as an open-source project.
Inexperience: Howard Lewis Ship has been coding, documenting, mentoring
and managing this open source project for nearly three years. Others on
the team have been actively using, supporting and extending Tapestry
for over a year.
Homogeneous Developers: The current Tapestry committers include
representatives from Canada, England, Australia and New Zealand; other,
more occasional, contributors represent South America and Asia. This is
just the opposite of the "smoke filled room".
Reliance on Salaried Developers: Tapestry is largely developed during
free time. Many contributions are developed by consultants to address
specific needs of their clients, then modularized and provided back to
the community (for example, Geoff is developing a workflow management
subsystem for Tapestry that may be released into the framework proper
when completed). Increasingly, developers are finishing projects with
Tapestry and contributing components created for those projects back
into the project.
No ties to other Apache Products: As stated above, Tapestry makes use
of the ORO and commons packages and has numerous places where greater
integration with Jakarta could occur. It is servlet container agnostic,
working well with Tomcat, Jetty, Resin and others.
Fascination with Apache Brand: Tapestry has been, and always will be an
open-source project.
[0.3] overlap with Turbine
Turbine has a similar model to Tapestry, but the focus of the two
projects is somewhat divergent. Turbine is a service-oriented where
Tapestry is component-oriented. Turbine provides a larger toolkit (in
the form of services) for aspects of the application not related
directly to the presentation layer. Tapestry provides more flexibility
and power in the presentation layer but doesn't provide any other
services (such as scheduling, database access, security, etc.).
Many Tapestry users are employing Tapestry for the presentation layer,
but leverage the many Turbine services (especially Torque).
[1] scope of subproject
The project shall create and maintain packages written in the Java
programming language constituting the framework itself, a standard
library of additional components, documentation, a web site and
additional examples.
[2] identify the initial source from which the project is to be
populated
The project currently resides on the SourceForge?
(http://tapestry.sf.net).
[3] identify the Jakarta resources to be created
[3.1] mailing lists(s)
tapestry-user tapestry-dev tapestry-cvs
[3.2] CVS repositories
jakarta-tapestry
[3.3] Bugzilla
framework - tapestry components - web site, contrib library,
documentation, examples
[3.4] Wiki
It is desired that a Wiki be setup. Use of the current Wiki
(http://tapestry.sf.net/wiki) has proven highly successful in
supporting distributed design, discussion and decision making, as well
as providing a home for temporary documentation until permanent
documentation changes occur. We would prefer MoinMoin?, a Python Wiki
implementation.
[4] identify the initial set of committers
Mind Bridge mindbridge mindbridgeweb@yahoo.com
Neil Clayton nclayton neil@cloudnine.net.nz
Malcolm Edgar medgar malcolm_edgar@hotmail.com
Richard Lewis-Shell rlewisshell rlewisshell@mac.com
Howard Lewis Ship hlship hlship@attbi.com
Geoff Longman glongman glongman@intelligentworks.com
[5] identify apache sponsoring individuals
Andrew C. Oliver
dIon Gillard
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> In this case, it was the capital letters in the subject line.
>
> Sam, thats my fault. He replied to one of my emails from a long time
> ago.
My bad. Many apologies Aaron.
Carry on.
- Sam Ruby
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>>
>> I'm dense and you're being vague. What exactly is bothering you?
>
>
> In this case, it was the capital letters in the subject line.
Sam, thats my fault. He replied to one of my emails from a long time ago.
The audience was the Tapestry committers and AGAIN was to attract their
attention that this was not the first thread entitled "Apache Proposal"
that this
was a "redeux" but I have enough trouble (due to my dyslexia) spelling
english
words correctly, let alone French. ;-)
I would have preferred a new thread started as well.
>
> Perhaps I would have felt differently if this e-mail had started out
> with "I have read the Tapestry proposal, and based on it, I have the
> following questions".
I actually ignored the first email because I felt "gee didn't he read
the proposal, it was *posted* on the mail list, posted on the web...
Anyhow, I'm going to fulfil the request (sending an email to community
and general @ jakarta) asking if those interested in participating in
the "incubation process" for Tapestry please subscribe.
I also have an email to send in response to ken's blog
http://ken.coar.org/blog/index?entry=25. I have some constructive
criticism to offer
on the incubator and would like to suggest an "emergence-based"
alternative to the current parts of the process which seem to have been
decided which I think would still fulfil the goal of the incubator while
solving this "which mailing list" problem. I am taking extra time to
edit out anything which could be perceived as negative or offensive
other than the basic disagreement (which can't be helped). So its been
coming for 5 days... This is fair *heads up*. I will send it to the
"members" list as it seems to be the most appropriate place.
-Andy
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
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>
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
>> [*] I've been pondering The Apache Way(TM) of late. This style of
>> challenge and parry is an example. I also note a tendency towards
>> "battles must be fought on my turf". This saddens me.
>
> I'm dense and you're being vague. What exactly is bothering you?
In this case, it was the capital letters in the subject line.
> If you are going to take each request for elaboration as resistance to
> the incubation process, then at the end of the day we'll all be sitting
> around being defensive and nothing will get done. OTOH, if we are able
> to explore the ramifications of accepting a new project, then in the
> end we will have a more healthy community.
Perhaps I would have felt differently if this e-mail had started out
with "I have read the Tapestry proposal, and based on it, I have the
following questions".
- Sam Ruby
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
On Saturday, January 4, 2003, at 01:50 PM, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Answers below. AGAIN. [*]
> [...]
> From
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=103495142031598&w=2 > :
>
> "Tapestry would benefit from Jakarta in terms of greater exposure and
> acceptance, but also in terms of better infrastructure, such as
> Bugzilla
> and Maven."
Thanks. Tapestry is in a unique position since it's the first project
proposal
to run through incubator, so my apologies in advance if these and other
topics
have already been discussed elsewhere (where many of us aren't
subscribers).
>>> Also, are there any other Apache people (members, committers,
>>> contributors, etc) interested in joining this community?
>
> From
> http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TapestryProposal :
>
> "Andrew C. Oliver
> dIon Gillard"
Please note the use of the word "other" in the above query. Since you,
Andy and dIon seem
to be most in touch with this group of potential community members,
would you perhaps
like to direct those people to this list so that they might participate
in the
incubation process?
> [*] I've been pondering The Apache Way(TM) of late. This style of
> challenge and parry is an example. I also note a tendency towards
> "battles must be fought on my turf". This saddens me.
I'm dense and you're being vague. What exactly is bothering you?
If it is my insistence that discussions and project proposals happen
on a mailing list (specifically this mailing list) then it is
unfortunate that you
see this as a turf war. I simply want the most healthy environment for
these
types of discussions.
Since this incubation process is not yet defined, we must each take it
upon
ourselves to figure out what we believe the proper criteria are for
adoption
and incubation of new projects.
If you are going to take each request for elaboration as resistance to
the incubation process, then at the end of the day we'll all be sitting
around being defensive and nothing will get done. OTOH, if we are able
to explore the ramifications of accepting a new project, then in the
end we will have a more healthy community.
> When in such situations, my tendency is to retreat from the forefront
> and to selectively reinforce those who's opinion I share. A +1 here.
> A quote and a hypertext link there. Perhaps an occasional question.
Quotes are good (in context). Hyperlinks on mailing lists tend to
restrict
visibility to those people with instant internet access. I almost
always forget
to go back and read hyperlinks in emails once I get back online. I find
it
very frustrating when URLs appear in emails as a replacement for
content.
> What would I have done differently in this case? Well, If I had a
> question of the Tapestry folks, I would simply go ask them.
I was actually trying to figure out *who* they are. So far it's just
Andy and dIon, right?
-aaron
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> Is anyone able to answer these?
>
> -a
Answers below. AGAIN. [*]
> On Tuesday, December 31, 2002, at 07:32 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
>> So, what will Tapestry gain from becoming an Apache project?
From
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=103495142031598&w=2 :
"Tapestry would benefit from Jakarta in terms of greater exposure and
acceptance, but also in terms of better infrastructure, such as Bugzilla
and Maven."
>> Also, are there any other Apache people (members, committers,
>> contributors, etc) interested in joining this community?
From
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TapestryProposal :
"Andrew C. Oliver
dIon Gillard"
- Sam Ruby
[*] I've been pondering The Apache Way(TM) of late. This style of
challenge and parry is an example. I also note a tendency towards
"battles must be fought on my turf". This saddens me.
When in such situations, my tendency is to retreat from the forefront
and to selectively reinforce those who's opinion I share. A +1 here. A
quote and a hypertext link there. Perhaps an occasional question.
What would I have done differently in this case? Well, If I had a
question of the Tapestry folks, I would simply go ask them.
Retreating back into my hole,
- Sam Ruby
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> Also, are there any other Apache people (members, committers,
contributors, etc)
> interested in joining this community?
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TapestryProposal
Specifically:
"
[5] identify apache sponsoring individuals
Andrew C. Oliver
dIon Gillard
"
While there are others, I hadn't recorded them formally and I have a
sneaking suspicion there are more than stepped forward.
<extreme-honesty desiredactions="appreciate, ignore">
As for "what they get".. . Increased visibility, synergy and the
"Jakarta factor". Sourceforge's servers
are down half the time, etc. I see synergies starting between Velocity
and Turbine and maybe Jetspeed.
They've already noted gains in the project through re-structuring their
community to be an Apache-style community.
One thing we get is a great group of guys (I've grown to really respect
them and the way they work together as a community) who
can pump new blood and pragmatism into our community. I think this is
not only a good match and Apache is good for Tapestry, but
I think these guys are super-good for Apache, especially Jakarta and
expect that they'll "fall" into other project and be a good influence on
the community.
</extreme-honesty>
-Andy
Aaron Bannert wrote:
> Is anyone able to answer these?
>
> -a
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 31, 2002, at 07:32 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
>
>> So, what will Tapestry gain from becoming an Apache project?
>>
>> Also, are there any other Apache people (members, committers,
>> contributors, etc)
>> interested in joining this community?
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
Is anyone able to answer these?
-a
On Tuesday, December 31, 2002, at 07:32 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
> So, what will Tapestry gain from becoming an Apache project?
>
> Also, are there any other Apache people (members, committers,
> contributors, etc)
> interested in joining this community?
Re: Apache Proposal AGAIN
Posted by Aaron Bannert <aa...@clove.org>.
>> Could you or someone please post this proposal to the
>> general@incubator
>> list? ...
>
> Here you go:
Excellent, thanks Ben.
So, what will Tapestry gain from becoming an Apache project?
Also, are there any other Apache people (members, committers,
contributors, etc)
interested in joining this community?
-aaron