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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2002/06/08 15:24:28 UTC
Removing some of the irons from the fire [was Re: [Design]
ContainerManager is under fire--let's find the best resolution]
People,
the idea I had of Avalon kept with my hopes: it is a meme, an infective
programming notion that sticks in your head and that can't be further
removed.
Luckily, it also moved from a meme to code than to a community effort: I
can't say I'm entirely happy with what happens over at Avalon-land, but
I love the fact that the effort is moving along (rumors say that Turbine
might get to use Avalon in the future, this is a great thing for
everybody, IMO)
You guys are working on Avalon 5, great, I want to be part of this. I'm
resubscribing to avalon-dev right now.
But some of you (all?) are cocoon lovers and you see many things that
Cocoon might do in better ways. I can't disagree, but this is making too
many irons in the fire. The fire is cooling down and I bet not many
people followed the somewhat harsh discussion between Berin, Vadim and
Leo. I couldn't myself, there was too lack of focus for my personal
taste.
The things that were put on the table (all at once) were:
1) removing ComponentSelector
2) removing the release() method
3) change the behavior of the core cocoon internals
I guess that's a little too much to discuss in a single thread, don't
you think?
So, while the first 2 points don't belong to this list (no matter how
much Cocoon is tied to avalon), only the third does. But I will be
*STRONGLY* against changing any deep structure before Cocoon stabilizes
from a usability point of view.
While I understand the concepts that Berin proposes, I think they are
something for Cocoon 3. There are *much* more important things to do on
Cocoon (docs, the flowmap integration, blocks) before even trying to fix
deep architectural imperfections (which are yet to be demostrated,
anyhow)
SoC, damn it.
So, let's move the discussion on Avalon 5 in avalon-dev and when that
effort is done, we'll move it over to cocoon-dev and discuss a possible
Cocoon 3.0 internal branch... but with three/four books coming out, it
would be a *SUICIDE* even to start talking about changing those
interfaces right now, no matter how elegant the new framework will be.
In case you didn't know, there are companies outthere who are using
Cocoon or evaluating cocoon for their commercial use and investing
millions of dollars on our architectural solidity.
This doesn't mean that we can't improve, but we must be *very* concerned
about the timing, the reasons and the intentions.
Hope this is clear to everybody.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
At 10:03 AM 6/11/2002 +0200, you wrote:
> > From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> >
> > Oh, I know, I know, don't worry: I'm not resubscribing here
> > with my Cocoon-hat (if there is such a thing!) but with my
> > Avalon knight sword.
>
>We have developed firearms since you were here last. Here,
>have a SAW. ;)
Stefano was around back when we used to have daily flamefests over the
color of the sky so he probably still got nukes sitting about ;)
> At the same time, my status of committer in this project is
> > honorific and emeritus. For this reason, I don't consider
> > myself as a committer of this effort anymore (despite the
> > fact that the system allows me to commit, if I really wanted
> > to). My votes don't count, until you guys vote my emeritus
> > status back (but I don't want to call for such a votation right now).
>
>VOTE
>----
>Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
Hell yes!
+1 +1 +1
Cheers,
Peter Donald
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind,
and proving that there is no need to do so - almost
everyone gets busy on the proof."
- John Kenneth Galbraith
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: Removing some of the irons from the fire [was Re: [Design]
ContainerManageris under fire--let's find the best resolution]
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
> Ok, let's rock and roll.
rock on dude, rock on!
- LSD
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Re: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Peter Royal <pr...@apache.org>.
On Tuesday 11 June 2002 04:03 am, Leo Sutic wrote:
> VOTE
> ----
> Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
+1
-pete
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peter royal -> proyal@apache.org
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Re: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Leo Simons wrote:
>>>At the same time, my status of committer in this project is
>>>honorific and emeritus. For this reason, I don't consider
>>>myself as a committer of this effort anymore (despite the
>>>fact that the system allows me to commit, if I really wanted
>>>to). My votes don't count, until you guys vote my emeritus
>>>status back (but I don't want to call for such a votation right now).
>>
>>VOTE
>>----
>>Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
>>
>>Reason: Either Stefano has common sense or he hasn't. If he
>>has, he will not vote when he knows he does not understand the
>>issue. If he does not have common sense, well, will he care about
>>any "no-you-may-not-vote-or-change-CVS" rule? (No.)
>>
>>+1 from me.
>
>
> +1 if he is =)
>
+1
This is the first time I'm voting Stefano in, and not viceversa... :-D
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
> > At the same time, my status of committer in this project is
> > honorific and emeritus. For this reason, I don't consider
> > myself as a committer of this effort anymore (despite the
> > fact that the system allows me to commit, if I really wanted
> > to). My votes don't count, until you guys vote my emeritus
> > status back (but I don't want to call for such a votation right now).
>
> VOTE
> ----
> Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
>
> Reason: Either Stefano has common sense or he hasn't. If he
> has, he will not vote when he knows he does not understand the
> issue. If he does not have common sense, well, will he care about
> any "no-you-may-not-vote-or-change-CVS" rule? (No.)
>
> +1 from me.
+1 if he is =)
- Leo Simons
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RE: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@apache.org]
>
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:02, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > > From: Leo Sutic [mailto:leo.sutic@inspireinfrastructure.com]
> > >
> > > > From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> > > >
> > > > Oh, I know, I know, don't worry: I'm not resubscribing
> here with
> > > > my Cocoon-hat (if there is such a thing!) but with my Avalon
> > > > knight sword.
> > >
> > > We have developed firearms since you were here last. Here, have a
> > > SAW. ;)
> >
> > I prefer a good Katana like the McClaud boys in Highlander.
> They are
> > less bulky, and more precise. Their purpose is to slice,
> not bash.
> > :) (That and I just got one for my 30th in May).
>
> ooer - now I jealous.
:)
I just have to learn how to use it correctly. Eventually I will
invest in a "real" one (one that was designed as a weapon and
not a display piece)--but those cost at least $1200 USD. Perhaps
it will be a reward for when I achieve the skill to warrant one....
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Re: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:02, Berin Loritsch wrote:
> > From: Leo Sutic [mailto:leo.sutic@inspireinfrastructure.com]
> >
> > > From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> > >
> > > Oh, I know, I know, don't worry: I'm not resubscribing here
> > > with my Cocoon-hat (if there is such a thing!) but with my
> > > Avalon knight sword.
> >
> > We have developed firearms since you were here last. Here,
> > have a SAW. ;)
>
> I prefer a good Katana like the McClaud boys in Highlander.
> They are less bulky, and more precise. Their purpose is to
> slice, not bash. :) (That and I just got one for my 30th
> in May).
ooer - now I jealous.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
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militant agnostic: i don't know, and you don't know either.
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ATTN: Stefano
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
Stefano: Welcome back, dude, mate, geezer!
-----------------------------------------------
VOTE
----
Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
> From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:bloritsch@apache.org]
> I vote +1 to have him back in full swing.
Leo Simons wrote:
> +1 if he is =)
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@apache.org]
>
> +1
>
> This is the first time I'm voting Stefano in, and not viceversa... :-D
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@apache.org]
>
> Hell yes!
>
> +1 +1 +1
> From: Leo Sutic
>
> +1 from me.
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RE: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
> From: Leo Sutic [mailto:leo.sutic@inspireinfrastructure.com]
>
> > From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:bloritsch@apache.org]
> >
> > > > At the same time, my status of committer in this project is
> > > > honorific and emeritus. For this reason, I don't consider
> > myself as
> > > > a committer of this effort anymore (despite the fact that
> > the system
> > > > allows me to commit, if I really wanted to). My votes
> > don't count,
> > > > until you guys vote my emeritus status back (but I don't want to
> > > > call for such a votation
> > > right now).
> > >
> > > VOTE
> > > ----
> > > Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
> > >
> > > Reason: Either Stefano has common sense or he hasn't. If
> he has, he
> > > will not vote when he knows he does not understand the
> issue. If he
> > > does not have common sense, well, will he care about any
> > > "no-you-may-not-vote-or-change-CVS" rule? (No.)
> > >
> > > +1 from me.
> >
> > Stefano's CVS privaledges have not been revoked (at least to
> > my knowledge). All he said was that he wants to regain the
> > respect in this community and earn what he already has.
>
> Yes - and that is what I am proposing. He explicitly says
> that he will not vote until we (as a formality) vote him back as a
> committer: "My votes don't count, until you guys vote my emeritus
> status back (but I don't want to call for such a votation right
> now)."
>
> As I stated, if he has common sense he'll know when to vote and
> when not to. If he doesn't have it, well, he won't remember any
> *self-imposed* "no-you-may-not-vote-or-change-CVS" rule.
>
> So give the guy a pat on the back, a "welcome back, dude, mate,
> geezer (British meaning)" and see what happens. What's the worst
> outcome?
>
> 1) A load of idiot mails and
>
> 2) and a lot of votes cast for "the wrong" proposals.
>
> I won't comment (1), but if ONE person can, by voting, get
> something moronic through, then the voting process is broken
> or we're all equally moronic (by not vetoing).
I doubt we will have that kind of trouble with Stefano. He's got
some decent mettle, and he's pretty intelligent (he does have a
doctorate....).
I have no qualms with him, and I think he would be a great asset
to the Avalon community. I vote +1 to have him back in full swing.
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RE: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:bloritsch@apache.org]
>
> > > At the same time, my status of committer in this project is
> > > honorific and emeritus. For this reason, I don't consider
> myself as
> > > a committer of this effort anymore (despite the fact that
> the system
> > > allows me to commit, if I really wanted to). My votes
> don't count,
> > > until you guys vote my emeritus status back (but I don't want to
> > > call for such a votation
> > right now).
> >
> > VOTE
> > ----
> > Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
> >
> > Reason: Either Stefano has common sense or he hasn't. If he
> > has, he will not vote when he knows he does not understand the
> > issue. If he does not have common sense, well, will he care
> > about any "no-you-may-not-vote-or-change-CVS" rule? (No.)
> >
> > +1 from me.
>
> Stefano's CVS privaledges have not been revoked (at least to
> my knowledge). All he said was that he wants to regain the
> respect in this community and earn what he already has.
Yes - and that is what I am proposing. He explicitly says that
he will not vote until we (as a formality) vote him back as a
committer: "My votes don't count, until you guys vote my emeritus
status back (but I don't want to call for such a votation right
now)."
As I stated, if he has common sense he'll know when to vote and
when not to. If he doesn't have it, well, he won't remember any
*self-imposed* "no-you-may-not-vote-or-change-CVS" rule.
So give the guy a pat on the back, a "welcome back, dude, mate,
geezer (British meaning)" and see what happens. What's the worst
outcome?
1) A load of idiot mails and
2) and a lot of votes cast for "the wrong" proposals.
I won't comment (1), but if ONE person can, by voting, get
something moronic through, then the voting process is broken or
we're all equally moronic (by not vetoing).
/LS
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RE: [VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
> From: Leo Sutic [mailto:leo.sutic@inspireinfrastructure.com]
>
> > From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
> >
> > Oh, I know, I know, don't worry: I'm not resubscribing here
> > with my Cocoon-hat (if there is such a thing!) but with my
> > Avalon knight sword.
>
> We have developed firearms since you were here last. Here,
> have a SAW. ;)
I prefer a good Katana like the McClaud boys in Highlander.
They are less bulky, and more precise. Their purpose is to
slice, not bash. :) (That and I just got one for my 30th
in May).
> > At the same time, my status of committer in this project is
> > honorific and emeritus. For this reason, I don't consider
> > myself as a committer of this effort anymore (despite the
> > fact that the system allows me to commit, if I really wanted
> > to). My votes don't count, until you guys vote my emeritus
> > status back (but I don't want to call for such a votation
> right now).
>
> VOTE
> ----
> Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
>
> Reason: Either Stefano has common sense or he hasn't. If he
> has, he will not vote when he knows he does not understand the
> issue. If he does not have common sense, well, will he care
> about any "no-you-may-not-vote-or-change-CVS" rule? (No.)
>
> +1 from me.
Stefano's CVS privaledges have not been revoked (at least to my
knowledge). All he said was that he wants to regain the respect
in this community and earn what he already has.
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[VOTE] RE: Removing some of the irons from the fire
Posted by Leo Sutic <le...@inspireinfrastructure.com>.
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:stefano@apache.org]
>
> Oh, I know, I know, don't worry: I'm not resubscribing here
> with my Cocoon-hat (if there is such a thing!) but with my
> Avalon knight sword.
We have developed firearms since you were here last. Here,
have a SAW. ;)
> At the same time, my status of committer in this project is
> honorific and emeritus. For this reason, I don't consider
> myself as a committer of this effort anymore (despite the
> fact that the system allows me to commit, if I really wanted
> to). My votes don't count, until you guys vote my emeritus
> status back (but I don't want to call for such a votation right now).
VOTE
----
Restore Stefano's committer status IMMEDIATELY.
Reason: Either Stefano has common sense or he hasn't. If he
has, he will not vote when he knows he does not understand the
issue. If he does not have common sense, well, will he care about
any "no-you-may-not-vote-or-change-CVS" rule? (No.)
+1 from me.
/LS
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Re: Removing some of the irons from the fire [was Re: [Design]
ContainerManageris under fire--let's find the best resolution]
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Stephen McConnell wrote:
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> >You guys are working on Avalon 5, great, I want to be part of this. I'm
> >resubscribing to avalon-dev right now.
> >
> >
>
> Cool.
> I have seen your name scattered around variouse sources so I guess
> this means your guilty by implication ;-)
Of course, I am. I left Avalon when Berin and Peter came along since I
had to graduate from college and I didn't have time to follow both
Cocoon and Avalon at the same time. I think it's time to clean up my own
mess.
> >But some of you (all?) are cocoon lovers and you see many things that
> >Cocoon might do in better ways.
> >
>
> Just for reference there is a lot of use of Avalon in areas that
> are totally independent of the cocoon world.
Oh, I know, I know, don't worry: I'm not resubscribing here with my
Cocoon-hat (if there is such a thing!) but with my Avalon knight sword.
At the same time, my status of committer in this project is honorific
and emeritus. For this reason, I don't consider myself as a committer of
this effort anymore (despite the fact that the system allows me to
commit, if I really wanted to). My votes don't count, until you guys
vote my emeritus status back (but I don't want to call for such a
votation right now).
So, in short: my opinions count as anybody else's and my votes won't be
pending. This is because I don't want people to think "look at him: he
comes back after all this time and wants to rule the place". No way. I
have to learn a bunch of things that you guys did in the past and I hope
I'll be able to catch up and contribute something.
I'm here to help, not to impose anything.
> Just the ctivities I'm involved in include the OpenORB project which
> makes extensive use of the framework and a number of Excalibur
> resources (not ECM). Services include a full-blown ORB, Persistent
> State Service, Naming, Time, event and notification services, a couple
> of compilers, and a Trader service. Beyond that, there are industrial
> projects dealing with Business Process Management, Community and
> Collaboration policy and execution for in the B2B context, business
> service registration and discovery systems, PKI frameworks, ....
> not to mention all of the projects under avalon-apps.
Don't worry, Steve. I'm fully aware of the fact that Avalon is not
simply the foundation of Cocoon and James, but it's getting momentum in
many different areas, expecially in those service-oriented areas where
Avalon was invented to fit in.
> Looking forward to you thoughts on A5.
Thanks, this is very appreciated.
I might ask stupid questions in the near future, hopefully to get up to
speed with what you guys did in the last year of so. I apologize in
advance for this.
Ok, let's rock and roll.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Removing some of the irons from the fire [was Re: [Design] ContainerManager
is under fire--let's find the best resolution]
Posted by Stephen McConnell <mc...@osm.net>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>You guys are working on Avalon 5, great, I want to be part of this. I'm
>resubscribing to avalon-dev right now.
>
>
Cool.
I have seen your name scattered around variouse sources so I guess
this means your guilty by implication ;-)
>But some of you (all?) are cocoon lovers and you see many things that
>Cocoon might do in better ways.
>
Just for reference there is a lot of use of Avalon in areas that
are totally independent of the cocoon world.
Just the ctivities I'm involved in include the OpenORB project which
makes extensive use of the framework and a number of Excalibur
resources (not ECM). Services include a full-blown ORB, Persistent
State Service, Naming, Time, event and notification services, a couple
of compilers, and a Trader service. Beyond that, there are industrial
projects dealing with Business Process Management, Community and
Collaboration policy and execution for in the B2B context, business
service registration and discovery systems, PKI frameworks, ....
not to mention all of the projects under avalon-apps.
Looking forward to you thoughts on A5.
Cheers, Steve.
--
Stephen J. McConnell
OSM SARL
digital products for a global economy
mailto:mcconnell@osm.net
http://www.osm.net
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Re: Removing some of the irons from the fire [was Re: [Design] ContainerManager
is under fire--let's find the best resolution]
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>
>So, while the first 2 points don't belong to this list (no matter how
>much Cocoon is tied to avalon), only the third does. But I will be
>*STRONGLY* against changing any deep structure before Cocoon stabilizes
>from a usability point of view.
>
>
+1 - Amen. There are many areas that need incremental improvement
before the foundation gets ripped
up again.
>While I understand the concepts that Berin proposes, I think they are
>something for Cocoon 3. There are *much* more important things to do on
>Cocoon (docs, the flowmap integration, blocks) before even trying to fix
>deep architectural imperfections (which are yet to be demostrated,
>anyhow)
>
>SoC, damn it.
>
>So, let's move the discussion on Avalon 5 in avalon-dev and when that
>effort is done, we'll move it over to cocoon-dev and discuss a possible
>Cocoon 3.0 internal branch... but with three/four books coming out, it
>would be a *SUICIDE* even to start talking about changing those
>interfaces right now, no matter how elegant the new framework will be.
>
>
+1 - I know many folks interested in using Cocoon that ripping up the
foundation would seriously
turn off.
>In case you didn't know, there are companies outthere who are using
>Cocoon or evaluating cocoon for their commercial use and investing
>millions of dollars on our architectural solidity.
>
>This doesn't mean that we can't improve, but we must be *very* concerned
>about the timing, the reasons and the intentions.
>
>
And thats why its 2.1 but not 3.0. 2.1 implies improvement but not
revolutionary change. Granted with
the opensource environment and the way I know a how a certain contingent
of this community work.
(Build brilliant stuff that only they understand, provide no
documentation or explanation and wonder why no one uses it
and every one creates their own.) So perhaps once 2.0.3 is out a new
branch 3.0 should start for those who
want to start a revolution. The 2.1, 2.2, etc series can continue and
mature and 3.0 can be marked "absolutely do not
use unless you like exceptions". The book writers can watch the commit
logs and start their "second editions" ;-).
But devils and angels alike atack those who have three or more CVS branches.
-Andy
>Hope this is clear to everybody.
>
>
>
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