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Posted to dev@ariatosca.apache.org by Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com> on 2018/05/21 15:17:04 UTC
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur from Cloudify (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we were always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and we thought we could contribute a few things.
Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can commit our PRs. We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the community.
Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on, and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know if that is going to change.
Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status. Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the project and will continue on github.
Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and Ericsson).
Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an active community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the Cloudify "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an option.
DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA parser implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons: the management complications.
Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that organization. WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on github with healthy communities.
I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild support. The community at large did not support this much.
Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the project. Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those folks will.
I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I have a lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler. That might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your new project would have the same attraction.
Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache. Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any organizational affiliation.
Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to reboot Aria is this possible?
Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The problem is that the active commiters are no longer interested in participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
Shen: Is there a way forward?
Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
Ido: See comment above.
Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the project.
Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in keeping it in Apache?
Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than starting a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the Committers list?
Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
Shen: We have many improvements.
Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the attic while in parallel working on github.
How does putting a project into the attic work?
Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of the attic/rebooting the project.
Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic. When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we can restart the project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom could lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it on their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real community when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control, you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your roadmap at all?
Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the code. What I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move forward within the organization (ASF).
Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to move forward we need people to be active in the project including add new committers.
Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear option.
Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor to run this project?
Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will need much more community.
Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come back Tom and Tal will support that.
Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take this over.
Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If you go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org is owned by Cloudify.
DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to do.
Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
DJ: yes.
> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com> wrote:
>
>
> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was the first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at 10AM EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
>
> —Tom
>
>
>
>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <ma...@lucidvision.com>>
>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <ma...@redhat.com>>
>>
>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the information for your video meeting.
>>
>>
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>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>.
https://incubator.apache.org/guides/retirement.html
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 9:59 AM, Tal Liron <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sadly, yes.
>
> Do you have a link the formal procedure? Does it need to be proposed in
> private@ or here?
>
> On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 7:57 AM Thomas Nadeau <tn...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > +1
> >
> > > On Jun 25, 2018, at 8:56 AM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Given that its been over a month since our last meeting about the
> future
> > of
> > > AriaTosca - and wee have not heard back from Ericsson - I propose that
> we
> > > start a [DISCUSS] to retire this project.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Tal Liron <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I actually think my work is not orthogonal... It is a complete TOSCA
> > parser
> > >> that can do a lot of what AriaTosca does, if not more, in that
> respect.
> > So,
> > >> depending on what folk think about it my project, it might make since
> to
> > >> move development focus there. (It's also Apache licensed.)
> > >>
> > >> However, it does not exactly include an orchestrator. Instead, it
> > targets
> > >> Kubernetes, which does your orchestration for you.
> > >>
> > >> If folk want an AriaTosca-style orchestrator, I don't think it would
> be
> > too
> > >> hard to add one. AriaTosca's orchestration is very simple. I have some
> > >> thoughts for how to do so and can assist, though I am not personally
> > >> interested in classical orchestration. A think a better option might
> be
> > to
> > >> plug it into Cloudify Community Edition, which is a serious
> > orchestrator.
> > >> The Cloudify folk might be interested in assisting on that, since they
> > do
> > >> want TOSCA support in their product.
> > >>
> > >> I am planning on a public release on Monday, assuming I don't have to
> > much
> > >> fun this weekend. :)
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 4:20 PM Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Tal’s work is orthogonal to the status of the project as we
> > >>> discussed. Sunil’s
> > >>> ‘ask’ hasn’t been addressed, which was your guys’ action from the
> > meeting
> > >>> we had about
> > >>> 2 weeks ago now.
> > >>>
> > >>> —Tom
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 9:07 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
> > >>> s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Hi Tom,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There are some internal delays anyway. But I thought we will be
> having
> > >>> for some info from Tal's work and assess the same, before we can
> make a
> > >>> final decision.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>> /Shen
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeauaria@gmail.com]
> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:30 PM
> > >>>> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> > >>>> Cc: smarthi@apache.org
> > >>>> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
> > Minutes
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Guys,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Its been a week (and well past “the end of this week”). Do you have
> > any
> > >>> updates ?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> —Tom
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 1:01 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
> > >>> s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hi Sunil,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
> > >>>>> I would come back by end of this week.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>> /Shen
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
> > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
> > >>>>> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> > >>>>> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
> > >>>>> Minutes
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let
> > us
> > >>> know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <smarthi@apache.org
> >
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thanks for the call this week.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
> > >>>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> > >>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
> > >>>>>>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They
> started
> > >>>>>>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them
> back
> > >>>>>>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with
> Arthur
> > >>> from Cloudify
> > >>>>>>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that,
> > we
> > >>> were
> > >>>>>>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward
> > and
> > >>>>>>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
> > >>>>>>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that
> > >> can
> > >>> commit our PRs.
> > >>>>>>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of
> > the
> > >>>>>>> community.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
> > >>>>>>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on
> > Aria
> > >>>>>>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work
> on,
> > >>>>>>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't
> know
> > >>>>>>> if that is going to change.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
> > >>>>>>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You
> can
> > >>>>>>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different
> status.
> > >>>>>>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is
> much
> > >>>>>>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
> > >>>>>>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving
> the
> > >>>>>>> project and will continue on github.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and
> > >>> Ericsson).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was
> an
> > >>> active
> > >>>>>>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into
> the
> > >>> Cloudify
> > >>>>>>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an
> > >>> option.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA
> > >>> parser
> > >>>>>>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management).
> > >> Cons:
> > >>>>>>> the management complications.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
> > >>>>>>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that
> > >>> organization.
> > >>>>>>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful
> > on
> > >>>>>>> github with healthy communities.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
> > >>>>>>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and
> onap
> > >>>>>>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the
> > >>> project.
> > >>>>>>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that
> those
> > >>>>>>> folks will.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am
> rewriting
> > >>>>>>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA).
> > I
> > >>> have a
> > >>>>>>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler.
> > >>> That
> > >>>>>>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if
> your
> > >>>>>>> new project would have the same attraction.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to
> > Apache.
> > >>>>>>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without
> any
> > >>>>>>> organizational affiliation.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants
> > to
> > >>>>>>> reboot Aria is this possible?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The
> > >>>>>>> problem is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
> > >>>>>>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ido: See comment above.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the
> > >>> project.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in
> > >>>>>>> keeping it in Apache?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than
> > >>>>>>> starting a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the
> > >>> Committers list?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Shen: We have many improvements.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made
> ready.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that
> can
> > >>>>>>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the
> > >>>>>>> attic while in parallel working on github.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
> > >>>>>>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making
> the
> > >>>>>>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out
> of
> > >>>>>>> the attic/rebooting the project.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance
> committers?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
> > >>>>>>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github,
> we
> > >>> can restart the
> > >>>>>>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If
> Tal/Tom
> > >>> could
> > >>>>>>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's
> employ
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very
> diplomatic.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and
> develop
> > >> it
> > >>> on
> > >>>>>>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real
> > >>> community
> > >>>>>>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
> > >>>>>>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you
> should
> > >>>>>>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want
> > control,
> > >>>>>>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on
> your
> > >>> roadmap at all?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation
> has
> > >>>>>>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the
> > >>> code. What
> > >>>>>>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot
> move
> > >>>>>>> forward within the organization (ASF).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project.
> > to
> > >>>>>>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including
> > >>>>>>> add new committers.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we
> > can
> > >>>>>>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the
> nuclear
> > >>> option.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single
> > vendor
> > >>>>>>> to run this project?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson
> will
> > >>>>>>> need much more community.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success.
> Don't
> > >>>>>>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again
> in a
> > >>>>>>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
> > >>>>>>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
> > >>>>>>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is
> to
> > >>>>>>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work
> taking a
> > >>>>>>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to
> > come
> > >>> back Tom and Tal will support that.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
> > >>>>>>> this over.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use
> > that.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If
> > >>>>>>> you go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion
> with
> > >>>>>>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The
> ariatosca.org
> > >>>>>>> is owned by Cloudify.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community
> > know.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide
> what
> > >> to
> > >>> do.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> DJ: yes.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
> > >>>>>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
> > >>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
> > >>>>>>>> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
> > >>>>>>>> 10AM
> > >>>>>>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> —Tom
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <
> invite@bluejeans.com
> > >>>>>>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
> > >>>>>>>>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
> > >>>>>>>>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
> > >>>>>>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
> > >>>>>>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
> > >>>>>>>>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
> > >>>>>>>>> information
> > >>>>>>> for your video meeting.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
> > >>>>>>>>> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> (Join from computer or phone)
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Connecting directly from a room system?
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
> > >>>>>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Just want to dial in on your phone?
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
> > >>>>>>>>> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
> > >>>>>>>>> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers
> >
> > >>>>>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> > >>>>>>>>> 3.) Press #
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Want to test your video connection?
> > >>>>>>>>> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
> > >>>>>>>> <Mail Attachment.ics>
> > >>>>>>>> <invite.ics>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> >
> >
>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Tal Liron <ta...@gmail.com>.
Sadly, yes.
Do you have a link the formal procedure? Does it need to be proposed in
private@ or here?
On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 7:57 AM Thomas Nadeau <tn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> > On Jun 25, 2018, at 8:56 AM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > Given that its been over a month since our last meeting about the future
> of
> > AriaTosca - and wee have not heard back from Ericsson - I propose that we
> > start a [DISCUSS] to retire this project.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Tal Liron <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I actually think my work is not orthogonal... It is a complete TOSCA
> parser
> >> that can do a lot of what AriaTosca does, if not more, in that respect.
> So,
> >> depending on what folk think about it my project, it might make since to
> >> move development focus there. (It's also Apache licensed.)
> >>
> >> However, it does not exactly include an orchestrator. Instead, it
> targets
> >> Kubernetes, which does your orchestration for you.
> >>
> >> If folk want an AriaTosca-style orchestrator, I don't think it would be
> too
> >> hard to add one. AriaTosca's orchestration is very simple. I have some
> >> thoughts for how to do so and can assist, though I am not personally
> >> interested in classical orchestration. A think a better option might be
> to
> >> plug it into Cloudify Community Edition, which is a serious
> orchestrator.
> >> The Cloudify folk might be interested in assisting on that, since they
> do
> >> want TOSCA support in their product.
> >>
> >> I am planning on a public release on Monday, assuming I don't have to
> much
> >> fun this weekend. :)
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 4:20 PM Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Tal’s work is orthogonal to the status of the project as we
> >>> discussed. Sunil’s
> >>> ‘ask’ hasn’t been addressed, which was your guys’ action from the
> meeting
> >>> we had about
> >>> 2 weeks ago now.
> >>>
> >>> —Tom
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 9:07 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
> >>> s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi Tom,
> >>>>
> >>>> There are some internal delays anyway. But I thought we will be having
> >>> for some info from Tal's work and assess the same, before we can make a
> >>> final decision.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> /Shen
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeauaria@gmail.com]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:30 PM
> >>>> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> >>>> Cc: smarthi@apache.org
> >>>> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
> Minutes
> >>>>
> >>>> Guys,
> >>>>
> >>>> Its been a week (and well past “the end of this week”). Do you have
> any
> >>> updates ?
> >>>>
> >>>> —Tom
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 1:01 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
> >>> s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Sunil,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
> >>>>> I would come back by end of this week.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>> /Shen
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
> >>>>> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
> >>>>> Minutes
> >>>>>
> >>>>> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let
> us
> >>> know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for the call this week.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
> >>>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
> >>>>>>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
> >>>>>>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
> >>>>>>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur
> >>> from Cloudify
> >>>>>>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that,
> we
> >>> were
> >>>>>>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward
> and
> >>>>>>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
> >>>>>>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that
> >> can
> >>> commit our PRs.
> >>>>>>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of
> the
> >>>>>>> community.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
> >>>>>>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on
> Aria
> >>>>>>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
> >>>>>>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know
> >>>>>>> if that is going to change.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
> >>>>>>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
> >>>>>>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
> >>>>>>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
> >>>>>>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
> >>>>>>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
> >>>>>>> project and will continue on github.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and
> >>> Ericsson).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an
> >>> active
> >>>>>>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the
> >>> Cloudify
> >>>>>>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an
> >>> option.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA
> >>> parser
> >>>>>>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management).
> >> Cons:
> >>>>>>> the management complications.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
> >>>>>>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that
> >>> organization.
> >>>>>>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful
> on
> >>>>>>> github with healthy communities.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
> >>>>>>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
> >>>>>>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the
> >>> project.
> >>>>>>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
> >>>>>>> folks will.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
> >>>>>>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA).
> I
> >>> have a
> >>>>>>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler.
> >>> That
> >>>>>>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
> >>>>>>> new project would have the same attraction.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to
> Apache.
> >>>>>>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
> >>>>>>> organizational affiliation.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants
> to
> >>>>>>> reboot Aria is this possible?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The
> >>>>>>> problem is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
> >>>>>>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ido: See comment above.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the
> >>> project.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in
> >>>>>>> keeping it in Apache?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than
> >>>>>>> starting a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the
> >>> Committers list?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Shen: We have many improvements.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
> >>>>>>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the
> >>>>>>> attic while in parallel working on github.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
> >>>>>>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
> >>>>>>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
> >>>>>>> the attic/rebooting the project.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
> >>>>>>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we
> >>> can restart the
> >>>>>>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom
> >>> could
> >>>>>>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop
> >> it
> >>> on
> >>>>>>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real
> >>> community
> >>>>>>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
> >>>>>>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
> >>>>>>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want
> control,
> >>>>>>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your
> >>> roadmap at all?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
> >>>>>>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the
> >>> code. What
> >>>>>>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
> >>>>>>> forward within the organization (ASF).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project.
> to
> >>>>>>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including
> >>>>>>> add new committers.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we
> can
> >>>>>>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear
> >>> option.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single
> vendor
> >>>>>>> to run this project?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
> >>>>>>> need much more community.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
> >>>>>>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
> >>>>>>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
> >>>>>>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
> >>>>>>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
> >>>>>>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
> >>>>>>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to
> come
> >>> back Tom and Tal will support that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
> >>>>>>> this over.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use
> that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If
> >>>>>>> you go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
> >>>>>>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org
> >>>>>>> is owned by Cloudify.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community
> know.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what
> >> to
> >>> do.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> DJ: yes.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
> >>>>>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
> >>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
> >>>>>>>> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
> >>>>>>>> 10AM
> >>>>>>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> —Tom
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
> >>>>>>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
> >>>>>>>>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
> >>>>>>>>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
> >>>>>>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
> >>>>>>>>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
> >>>>>>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
> >>>>>>>>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
> >>>>>>>>> information
> >>>>>>> for your video meeting.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
> >>>>>>>>> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> (Join from computer or phone)
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Connecting directly from a room system?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
> >>>>>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Just want to dial in on your phone?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
> >>>>>>>>> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
> >>>>>>>>> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
> >>>>>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> >>>>>>>>> 3.) Press #
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Want to test your video connection?
> >>>>>>>>> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
> >>>>>>>> <Mail Attachment.ics>
> >>>>>>>> <invite.ics>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
>
>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Thomas Nadeau <tn...@gmail.com>.
+1
> On Jun 25, 2018, at 8:56 AM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Given that its been over a month since our last meeting about the future of
> AriaTosca - and wee have not heard back from Ericsson - I propose that we
> start a [DISCUSS] to retire this project.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Tal Liron <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I actually think my work is not orthogonal... It is a complete TOSCA parser
>> that can do a lot of what AriaTosca does, if not more, in that respect. So,
>> depending on what folk think about it my project, it might make since to
>> move development focus there. (It's also Apache licensed.)
>>
>> However, it does not exactly include an orchestrator. Instead, it targets
>> Kubernetes, which does your orchestration for you.
>>
>> If folk want an AriaTosca-style orchestrator, I don't think it would be too
>> hard to add one. AriaTosca's orchestration is very simple. I have some
>> thoughts for how to do so and can assist, though I am not personally
>> interested in classical orchestration. A think a better option might be to
>> plug it into Cloudify Community Edition, which is a serious orchestrator.
>> The Cloudify folk might be interested in assisting on that, since they do
>> want TOSCA support in their product.
>>
>> I am planning on a public release on Monday, assuming I don't have to much
>> fun this weekend. :)
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 4:20 PM Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Tal’s work is orthogonal to the status of the project as we
>>> discussed. Sunil’s
>>> ‘ask’ hasn’t been addressed, which was your guys’ action from the meeting
>>> we had about
>>> 2 weeks ago now.
>>>
>>> —Tom
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 7, 2018, at 9:07 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
>>> s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>
>>>> There are some internal delays anyway. But I thought we will be having
>>> for some info from Tal's work and assess the same, before we can make a
>>> final decision.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> /Shen
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeauaria@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:30 PM
>>>> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
>>>> Cc: smarthi@apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
>>>>
>>>> Guys,
>>>>
>>>> Its been a week (and well past “the end of this week”). Do you have any
>>> updates ?
>>>>
>>>> —Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 30, 2018, at 1:01 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
>>> s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Sunil,
>>>>>
>>>>> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
>>>>> I would come back by end of this week.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> /Shen
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
>>>>> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
>>>>> Minutes
>>>>>
>>>>> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us
>>> know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the call this week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>>>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
>>>>>>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
>>>>>>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
>>>>>>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur
>>> from Cloudify
>>>>>>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we
>>> were
>>>>>>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and
>>>>>>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
>>>>>>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that
>> can
>>> commit our PRs.
>>>>>>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
>>>>>>> community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
>>>>>>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria
>>>>>>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
>>>>>>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know
>>>>>>> if that is going to change.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
>>>>>>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
>>>>>>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
>>>>>>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
>>>>>>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
>>>>>>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
>>>>>>> project and will continue on github.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and
>>> Ericsson).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an
>>> active
>>>>>>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the
>>> Cloudify
>>>>>>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an
>>> option.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA
>>> parser
>>>>>>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management).
>> Cons:
>>>>>>> the management complications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
>>>>>>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that
>>> organization.
>>>>>>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
>>>>>>> github with healthy communities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
>>>>>>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
>>>>>>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the
>>> project.
>>>>>>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
>>>>>>> folks will.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
>>>>>>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I
>>> have a
>>>>>>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler.
>>> That
>>>>>>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
>>>>>>> new project would have the same attraction.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
>>>>>>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
>>>>>>> organizational affiliation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
>>>>>>> reboot Aria is this possible?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The
>>>>>>> problem is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
>>>>>>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ido: See comment above.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the
>>> project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in
>>>>>>> keeping it in Apache?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than
>>>>>>> starting a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the
>>> Committers list?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shen: We have many improvements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
>>>>>>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the
>>>>>>> attic while in parallel working on github.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
>>>>>>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
>>>>>>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
>>>>>>> the attic/rebooting the project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
>>>>>>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we
>>> can restart the
>>>>>>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom
>>> could
>>>>>>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop
>> it
>>> on
>>>>>>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real
>>> community
>>>>>>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
>>>>>>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
>>>>>>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control,
>>>>>>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your
>>> roadmap at all?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
>>>>>>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the
>>> code. What
>>>>>>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
>>>>>>> forward within the organization (ASF).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to
>>>>>>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including
>>>>>>> add new committers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can
>>>>>>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear
>>> option.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor
>>>>>>> to run this project?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
>>>>>>> need much more community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
>>>>>>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
>>>>>>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
>>>>>>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
>>>>>>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
>>>>>>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
>>>>>>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come
>>> back Tom and Tal will support that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
>>>>>>> this over.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If
>>>>>>> you go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
>>>>>>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org
>>>>>>> is owned by Cloudify.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what
>> to
>>> do.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> DJ: yes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
>>>>>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
>>>>>>>> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
>>>>>>>> 10AM
>>>>>>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> —Tom
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
>>>>>>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
>>>>>>>>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
>>>>>>>>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
>>>>>>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
>>>>>>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
>>>>>>>>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
>>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>> for your video meeting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
>>>>>>>>> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (Join from computer or phone)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Connecting directly from a room system?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
>>>>>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just want to dial in on your phone?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
>>>>>>>>> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
>>>>>>>>> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
>>>>>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>>>>>>>>> 3.) Press #
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Want to test your video connection?
>>>>>>>>> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
>>>>>>>> <Mail Attachment.ics>
>>>>>>>> <invite.ics>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>.
Given that its been over a month since our last meeting about the future of
AriaTosca - and wee have not heard back from Ericsson - I propose that we
start a [DISCUSS] to retire this project.
Thoughts?
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 6:51 PM, Tal Liron <ta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I actually think my work is not orthogonal... It is a complete TOSCA parser
> that can do a lot of what AriaTosca does, if not more, in that respect. So,
> depending on what folk think about it my project, it might make since to
> move development focus there. (It's also Apache licensed.)
>
> However, it does not exactly include an orchestrator. Instead, it targets
> Kubernetes, which does your orchestration for you.
>
> If folk want an AriaTosca-style orchestrator, I don't think it would be too
> hard to add one. AriaTosca's orchestration is very simple. I have some
> thoughts for how to do so and can assist, though I am not personally
> interested in classical orchestration. A think a better option might be to
> plug it into Cloudify Community Edition, which is a serious orchestrator.
> The Cloudify folk might be interested in assisting on that, since they do
> want TOSCA support in their product.
>
> I am planning on a public release on Monday, assuming I don't have to much
> fun this weekend. :)
>
> On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 4:20 PM Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Tal’s work is orthogonal to the status of the project as we
> > discussed. Sunil’s
> > ‘ask’ hasn’t been addressed, which was your guys’ action from the meeting
> > we had about
> > 2 weeks ago now.
> >
> > —Tom
> >
> >
> > > On Jun 7, 2018, at 9:07 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
> > s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Tom,
> > >
> > > There are some internal delays anyway. But I thought we will be having
> > for some info from Tal's work and assess the same, before we can make a
> > final decision.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > /Shen
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeauaria@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:30 PM
> > > To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> > > Cc: smarthi@apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
> > >
> > > Guys,
> > >
> > > Its been a week (and well past “the end of this week”). Do you have any
> > updates ?
> > >
> > > —Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >> On May 30, 2018, at 1:01 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
> > s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi Sunil,
> > >>
> > >> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
> > >> I would come back by end of this week.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> /Shen
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
> > >> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> > >> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
> > >> Minutes
> > >>
> > >> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us
> > know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Thanks for the call this week.
> > >>>
> > >>> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
> > >>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
> > >>>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
> > >>>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
> > >>>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur
> > from Cloudify
> > >>>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we
> > were
> > >>>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and
> > >>>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
> > >>>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that
> can
> > commit our PRs.
> > >>>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
> > >>>> community.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
> > >>>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria
> > >>>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
> > >>>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know
> > >>>> if that is going to change.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
> > >>>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
> > >>>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
> > >>>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
> > >>>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
> > >>>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
> > >>>> project and will continue on github.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and
> > Ericsson).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an
> > active
> > >>>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the
> > Cloudify
> > >>>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an
> > option.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA
> > parser
> > >>>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management).
> Cons:
> > >>>> the management complications.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
> > >>>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that
> > organization.
> > >>>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
> > >>>> github with healthy communities.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
> > >>>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
> > >>>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the
> > project.
> > >>>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
> > >>>> folks will.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
> > >>>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I
> > have a
> > >>>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler.
> > That
> > >>>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
> > >>>> new project would have the same attraction.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
> > >>>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
> > >>>> organizational affiliation.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
> > >>>> reboot Aria is this possible?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The
> > >>>> problem is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
> > >>>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ido: See comment above.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the
> > project.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in
> > >>>> keeping it in Apache?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than
> > >>>> starting a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the
> > Committers list?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Shen: We have many improvements.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
> > >>>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the
> > >>>> attic while in parallel working on github.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
> > >>>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
> > >>>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
> > >>>> the attic/rebooting the project.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
> > >>>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we
> > can restart the
> > >>>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom
> > could
> > >>>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop
> it
> > on
> > >>>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real
> > community
> > >>>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
> > >>>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
> > >>>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control,
> > >>>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your
> > roadmap at all?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
> > >>>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the
> > code. What
> > >>>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
> > >>>> forward within the organization (ASF).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to
> > >>>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including
> > >>>> add new committers.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can
> > >>>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear
> > option.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor
> > >>>> to run this project?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
> > >>>> need much more community.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
> > >>>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
> > >>>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
> > >>>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
> > >>>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
> > >>>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
> > >>>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come
> > back Tom and Tal will support that.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
> > >>>> this over.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If
> > >>>> you go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
> > >>>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org
> > >>>> is owned by Cloudify.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what
> to
> > do.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> DJ: yes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
> > >>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
> > >>>>> the
> > >>>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
> > >>>>> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
> > >>>>> 10AM
> > >>>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> —Tom
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
> > >>>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
> > >>>>>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
> > >>>>>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
> > >>>>>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
> > >>>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
> > >>>>>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
> > >>>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
> > >>>>>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
> > >>>>>> information
> > >>>> for your video meeting.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
> > >>>>>> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>> (Join from computer or phone)
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Connecting directly from a room system?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
> > >>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Just want to dial in on your phone?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
> > >>>>>> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
> > >>>>>> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
> > >>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> > >>>>>> 3.) Press #
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Want to test your video connection?
> > >>>>>> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
> > >>>>> <Mail Attachment.ics>
> > >>>>> <invite.ics>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >
> >
> >
>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Tal Liron <ta...@gmail.com>.
I actually think my work is not orthogonal... It is a complete TOSCA parser
that can do a lot of what AriaTosca does, if not more, in that respect. So,
depending on what folk think about it my project, it might make since to
move development focus there. (It's also Apache licensed.)
However, it does not exactly include an orchestrator. Instead, it targets
Kubernetes, which does your orchestration for you.
If folk want an AriaTosca-style orchestrator, I don't think it would be too
hard to add one. AriaTosca's orchestration is very simple. I have some
thoughts for how to do so and can assist, though I am not personally
interested in classical orchestration. A think a better option might be to
plug it into Cloudify Community Edition, which is a serious orchestrator.
The Cloudify folk might be interested in assisting on that, since they do
want TOSCA support in their product.
I am planning on a public release on Monday, assuming I don't have to much
fun this weekend. :)
On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 4:20 PM Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>
wrote:
> Tal’s work is orthogonal to the status of the project as we
> discussed. Sunil’s
> ‘ask’ hasn’t been addressed, which was your guys’ action from the meeting
> we had about
> 2 weeks ago now.
>
> —Tom
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 2018, at 9:07 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
> s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > There are some internal delays anyway. But I thought we will be having
> for some info from Tal's work and assess the same, before we can make a
> final decision.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > /Shen
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeauaria@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:30 PM
> > To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> > Cc: smarthi@apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > Its been a week (and well past “the end of this week”). Do you have any
> updates ?
> >
> > —Tom
> >
> >
> >> On May 30, 2018, at 1:01 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <
> s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Sunil,
> >>
> >> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
> >> I would come back by end of this week.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> /Shen
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
> >> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
> >> Minutes
> >>
> >> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us
> know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for the call this week.
> >>>
> >>> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
> >>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
> >>>>
> >>>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
> >>>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
> >>>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
> >>>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur
> from Cloudify
> >>>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we
> were
> >>>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and
> >>>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
> >>>>
> >>>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
> >>>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can
> commit our PRs.
> >>>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
> >>>> community.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
> >>>>
> >>>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
> >>>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria
> >>>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
> >>>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know
> >>>> if that is going to change.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
> >>>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
> >>>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
> >>>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
> >>>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
> >>>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
> >>>> project and will continue on github.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and
> Ericsson).
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an
> active
> >>>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the
> Cloudify
> >>>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an
> option.
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA
> parser
> >>>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
> >>>>
> >>>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons:
> >>>> the management complications.
> >>>>
> >>>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
> >>>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that
> organization.
> >>>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
> >>>> github with healthy communities.
> >>>>
> >>>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
> >>>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
> >>>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the
> project.
> >>>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
> >>>> folks will.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
> >>>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I
> have a
> >>>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler.
> That
> >>>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
> >>>> new project would have the same attraction.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
> >>>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
> >>>> organizational affiliation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
> >>>> reboot Aria is this possible?
> >>>>
> >>>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The
> >>>> problem is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
> >>>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
> >>>>
> >>>> Ido: See comment above.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the
> project.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in
> >>>> keeping it in Apache?
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than
> >>>> starting a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the
> Committers list?
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
> >>>>
> >>>> Shen: We have many improvements.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
> >>>>
> >>>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
> >>>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
> >>>>
> >>>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the
> >>>> attic while in parallel working on github.
> >>>>
> >>>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
> >>>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
> >>>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
> >>>> the attic/rebooting the project.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
> >>>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we
> can restart the
> >>>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom
> could
> >>>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
> >>>>
> >>>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it
> on
> >>>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real
> community
> >>>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
> >>>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
> >>>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control,
> >>>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your
> roadmap at all?
> >>>>
> >>>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
> >>>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the
> code. What
> >>>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
> >>>> forward within the organization (ASF).
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to
> >>>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including
> >>>> add new committers.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can
> >>>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear
> option.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor
> >>>> to run this project?
> >>>>
> >>>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
> >>>> need much more community.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
> >>>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
> >>>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
> >>>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
> >>>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
> >>>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
> >>>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come
> back Tom and Tal will support that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
> >>>> this over.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If
> >>>> you go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
> >>>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org
> >>>> is owned by Cloudify.
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to
> do.
> >>>>
> >>>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
> >>>>
> >>>> DJ: yes.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
> >>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
> >>>>> the
> >>>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
> >>>>> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
> >>>>> 10AM
> >>>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> —Tom
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
> >>>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
> >>>>>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
> >>>>>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
> >>>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
> >>>>>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
> >>>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
> >>>>>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
> >>>>>> information
> >>>> for your video meeting.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
> >>>>>> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
> >>>>
> >>>>>> (Join from computer or phone)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Connecting directly from a room system?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
> >>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Just want to dial in on your phone?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
> >>>>>> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
> >>>>>> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
> >>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> >>>>>> 3.) Press #
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Want to test your video connection?
> >>>>>> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
> >>>>> <Mail Attachment.ics>
> >>>>> <invite.ics>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >
>
>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>.
Tal’s work is orthogonal to the status of the project as we discussed. Sunil’s
‘ask’ hasn’t been addressed, which was your guys’ action from the meeting we had about
2 weeks ago now.
—Tom
> On Jun 7, 2018, at 9:07 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <s....@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Tom,
>
> There are some internal delays anyway. But I thought we will be having for some info from Tal's work and assess the same, before we can make a final decision.
>
> Thanks,
> /Shen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeauaria@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:30 PM
> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> Cc: smarthi@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
>
> Guys,
>
> Its been a week (and well past “the end of this week”). Do you have any updates ?
>
> —Tom
>
>
>> On May 30, 2018, at 1:01 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <s....@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sunil,
>>
>> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
>> I would come back by end of this week.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> /Shen
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
>> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
>> Minutes
>>
>> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the call this week.
>>>
>>> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
>>>>
>>>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
>>>>
>>>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
>>>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
>>>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
>>>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur from Cloudify
>>>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we were
>>>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and
>>>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
>>>>
>>>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
>>>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can commit our PRs.
>>>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
>>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
>>>>
>>>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
>>>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria
>>>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
>>>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know
>>>> if that is going to change.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
>>>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
>>>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
>>>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
>>>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
>>>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
>>>>
>>>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
>>>> project and will continue on github.
>>>>
>>>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and Ericsson).
>>>>
>>>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an active
>>>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the Cloudify
>>>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an option.
>>>>
>>>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA parser
>>>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
>>>>
>>>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
>>>>
>>>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons:
>>>> the management complications.
>>>>
>>>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
>>>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that organization.
>>>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
>>>>
>>>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
>>>> github with healthy communities.
>>>>
>>>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
>>>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
>>>>
>>>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
>>>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the project.
>>>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
>>>> folks will.
>>>>
>>>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
>>>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I have a
>>>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler. That
>>>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
>>>>
>>>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
>>>> new project would have the same attraction.
>>>>
>>>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
>>>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
>>>> organizational affiliation.
>>>>
>>>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
>>>> reboot Aria is this possible?
>>>>
>>>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The
>>>> problem is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
>>>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
>>>>
>>>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
>>>>
>>>> Ido: See comment above.
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the project.
>>>>
>>>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in
>>>> keeping it in Apache?
>>>>
>>>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
>>>>
>>>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than
>>>> starting a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the Committers list?
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
>>>>
>>>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
>>>>
>>>> Shen: We have many improvements.
>>>>
>>>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
>>>>
>>>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
>>>>
>>>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
>>>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
>>>>
>>>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the
>>>> attic while in parallel working on github.
>>>>
>>>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
>>>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
>>>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
>>>> the attic/rebooting the project.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
>>>>
>>>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
>>>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we can restart the
>>>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom could
>>>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
>>>>
>>>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
>>>>
>>>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
>>>>
>>>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it on
>>>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real community
>>>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
>>>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
>>>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control,
>>>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your roadmap at all?
>>>>
>>>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
>>>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the code. What
>>>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
>>>> forward within the organization (ASF).
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to
>>>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including
>>>> add new committers.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can
>>>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear option.
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor
>>>> to run this project?
>>>>
>>>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
>>>> need much more community.
>>>>
>>>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
>>>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
>>>>
>>>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
>>>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
>>>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
>>>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
>>>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
>>>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come back Tom and Tal will support that.
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
>>>> this over.
>>>>
>>>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
>>>>
>>>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If
>>>> you go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
>>>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
>>>>
>>>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org
>>>> is owned by Cloudify.
>>>>
>>>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
>>>>
>>>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to do.
>>>>
>>>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
>>>>
>>>> DJ: yes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
>>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
>>>>> the
>>>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
>>>>> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
>>>>> 10AM
>>>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
>>>>>
>>>>> —Tom
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
>>>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
>>>>>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
>>>>>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
>>>>>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
>>>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
>>>>>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
>>>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
>>>>>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
>>>>>> information
>>>> for your video meeting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
>>>>>> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
>>>>
>>>>>> (Join from computer or phone)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Connecting directly from a room system?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
>>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just want to dial in on your phone?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
>>>>>> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
>>>>>> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
>>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>>>>>> 3.) Press #
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Want to test your video connection?
>>>>>> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
>>>>> <Mail Attachment.ics>
>>>>> <invite.ics>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
RE: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by S Shenbaga Rajan <s....@ericsson.com>.
Hi Tom,
There are some internal delays anyway. But I thought we will be having for some info from Tal's work and assess the same, before we can make a final decision.
Thanks,
/Shen
-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Nadeau [mailto:tnadeauaria@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:30 PM
To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
Cc: smarthi@apache.org
Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Guys,
Its been a week (and well past “the end of this week”). Do you have any updates ?
—Tom
> On May 30, 2018, at 1:01 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <s....@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Sunil,
>
> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
> I would come back by end of this week.
>
> Thanks,
> /Shen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting
> Minutes
>
> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the call this week.
>>
>> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
>>>
>>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
>>>
>>>
>>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
>>>
>>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
>>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
>>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
>>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur from Cloudify
>>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we were
>>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and
>>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
>>>
>>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
>>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can commit our PRs.
>>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
>>> community.
>>>
>>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
>>>
>>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
>>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria
>>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
>>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know
>>> if that is going to change.
>>>
>>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
>>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
>>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
>>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
>>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
>>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
>>>
>>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
>>>
>>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
>>> project and will continue on github.
>>>
>>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and Ericsson).
>>>
>>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an active
>>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the Cloudify
>>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an option.
>>>
>>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA parser
>>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
>>>
>>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
>>>
>>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
>>>
>>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons:
>>> the management complications.
>>>
>>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
>>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that organization.
>>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
>>>
>>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
>>> github with healthy communities.
>>>
>>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
>>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
>>>
>>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
>>>
>>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
>>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the project.
>>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
>>> folks will.
>>>
>>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
>>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I have a
>>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler. That
>>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
>>>
>>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
>>> new project would have the same attraction.
>>>
>>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
>>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
>>> organizational affiliation.
>>>
>>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
>>> reboot Aria is this possible?
>>>
>>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
>>>
>>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The
>>> problem is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
>>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
>>>
>>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
>>>
>>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
>>>
>>> Ido: See comment above.
>>>
>>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the project.
>>>
>>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
>>>
>>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in
>>> keeping it in Apache?
>>>
>>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
>>>
>>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than
>>> starting a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the Committers list?
>>>
>>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
>>>
>>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
>>>
>>> Shen: We have many improvements.
>>>
>>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
>>>
>>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
>>>
>>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
>>>
>>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
>>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
>>>
>>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the
>>> attic while in parallel working on github.
>>>
>>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
>>>
>>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
>>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
>>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
>>> the attic/rebooting the project.
>>>
>>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
>>>
>>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
>>>
>>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
>>>
>>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
>>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we can restart the
>>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom could
>>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
>>>
>>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
>>>
>>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
>>>
>>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it on
>>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real community
>>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
>>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
>>>
>>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
>>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control,
>>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your roadmap at all?
>>>
>>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
>>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the code. What
>>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
>>> forward within the organization (ASF).
>>>
>>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to
>>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including
>>> add new committers.
>>>
>>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can
>>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear option.
>>>
>>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor
>>> to run this project?
>>>
>>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
>>> need much more community.
>>>
>>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
>>>
>>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
>>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
>>>
>>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
>>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
>>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
>>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
>>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
>>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come back Tom and Tal will support that.
>>>
>>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
>>> this over.
>>>
>>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
>>>
>>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
>>>
>>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If
>>> you go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
>>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
>>>
>>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org
>>> is owned by Cloudify.
>>>
>>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
>>>
>>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to do.
>>>
>>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
>>>
>>> DJ: yes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
>>>> the
>>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
>>>> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
>>>> 10AM
>>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
>>>>
>>>> —Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
>>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
>>>>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
>>>>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
>>>>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
>>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
>>>>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
>>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
>>>>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
>>>>> information
>>> for your video meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
>>>>> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
>>>
>>>>> (Join from computer or phone)
>>>>>
>>>>> Connecting directly from a room system?
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just want to dial in on your phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
>>>>> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
>>>>> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>>>>> 3.) Press #
>>>>>
>>>>> Want to test your video connection?
>>>>> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
>>>> <Mail Attachment.ics>
>>>> <invite.ics>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Thomas Nadeau <tn...@gmail.com>.
Guys,
Its been a week (and well past “the end of this week”). Do you have any updates ?
—Tom
> On May 30, 2018, at 1:01 AM, S Shenbaga Rajan <s....@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Sunil,
>
> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
> I would come back by end of this week.
>
> Thanks,
> /Shen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
>
> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the call this week.
>>
>> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
>>>
>>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
>>>
>>>
>>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
>>>
>>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
>>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
>>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
>>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur from Cloudify
>>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we were
>>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and
>>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
>>>
>>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
>>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can commit our PRs.
>>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
>>> community.
>>>
>>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
>>>
>>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
>>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria
>>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
>>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know if
>>> that is going to change.
>>>
>>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
>>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
>>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
>>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
>>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
>>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
>>>
>>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
>>>
>>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
>>> project and will continue on github.
>>>
>>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and Ericsson).
>>>
>>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an active
>>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the Cloudify
>>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an option.
>>>
>>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA parser
>>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
>>>
>>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
>>>
>>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
>>>
>>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons:
>>> the management complications.
>>>
>>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
>>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that organization.
>>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
>>>
>>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
>>> github with healthy communities.
>>>
>>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
>>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
>>>
>>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
>>>
>>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
>>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the project.
>>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
>>> folks will.
>>>
>>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
>>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I have a
>>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler. That
>>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
>>>
>>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
>>> new project would have the same attraction.
>>>
>>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
>>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
>>> organizational affiliation.
>>>
>>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
>>> reboot Aria is this possible?
>>>
>>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
>>>
>>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The problem
>>> is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
>>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
>>>
>>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
>>>
>>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
>>>
>>> Ido: See comment above.
>>>
>>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the project.
>>>
>>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
>>>
>>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in keeping
>>> it in Apache?
>>>
>>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
>>>
>>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than starting
>>> a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the Committers list?
>>>
>>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
>>>
>>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
>>>
>>> Shen: We have many improvements.
>>>
>>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
>>>
>>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
>>>
>>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
>>>
>>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
>>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
>>>
>>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the attic
>>> while in parallel working on github.
>>>
>>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
>>>
>>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
>>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
>>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
>>> the attic/rebooting the project.
>>>
>>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
>>>
>>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
>>>
>>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
>>>
>>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
>>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we can restart the
>>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom could
>>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
>>>
>>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
>>>
>>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
>>>
>>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it on
>>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real community
>>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
>>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
>>>
>>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
>>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control,
>>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your roadmap at all?
>>>
>>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
>>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the code. What
>>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
>>> forward within the organization (ASF).
>>>
>>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to
>>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including add
>>> new committers.
>>>
>>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can
>>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear option.
>>>
>>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor
>>> to run this project?
>>>
>>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
>>> need much more community.
>>>
>>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
>>>
>>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
>>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
>>>
>>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
>>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
>>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
>>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
>>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
>>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come back Tom and Tal will support that.
>>>
>>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
>>> this over.
>>>
>>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
>>>
>>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
>>>
>>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If you
>>> go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
>>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
>>>
>>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org is
>>> owned by Cloudify.
>>>
>>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
>>>
>>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to do.
>>>
>>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
>>>
>>> DJ: yes.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
>>>> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
>>>> the
>>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
>>>> This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
>>>> 10AM
>>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
>>>>
>>>> —Tom
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
>>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
>>>>> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
>>>>> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
>>>>> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
>>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
>>>>> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
>>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://bluejeans.com/>
>>>>> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
>>>>> information
>>> for your video meeting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
>>>>> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
>>>
>>>>> (Join from computer or phone)
>>>>>
>>>>> Connecting directly from a room system?
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just want to dial in on your phone?
>>>>>
>>>>> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
>>>>> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
>>>>> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
>>>>> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>>>>> 3.) Press #
>>>>>
>>>>> Want to test your video connection?
>>>>> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
>>>> <Mail Attachment.ics>
>>>> <invite.ics>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Tal Liron <ta...@gmail.com>.
Hi everyone,
My new TOSCA parser will also be ready for public review in about 1 week. I
propose we delay the decision a bit longer so we can assess the situation.
On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:01 AM S Shenbaga Rajan <
s.shenbaga.rajan@ericsson.com> wrote:
> Hi Sunil,
>
> Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
> I would come back by end of this week.
>
> Thanks,
> /Shen
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
> To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
>
> @DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us
> know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the call this week.
> >
> > @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
> > <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
> >>
> >> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
> >>
> >>
> >> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
> >>
> >> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
> >> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
> >> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
> >> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur from
> Cloudify
> >> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we
> were
> >> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and
> >> we thought we could contribute a few things.
> >>
> >> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
> >> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can
> commit our PRs.
> >> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
> >> community.
> >>
> >> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
> >>
> >> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
> >> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria
> >> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
> >> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know if
> >> that is going to change.
> >>
> >> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
> >> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
> >> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
> >> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
> >> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
> >> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
> >>
> >> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
> >>
> >> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
> >> project and will continue on github.
> >>
> >> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and
> Ericsson).
> >>
> >> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an
> active
> >> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the
> Cloudify
> >> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an
> option.
> >>
> >> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA parser
> >> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
> >>
> >> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
> >>
> >> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
> >>
> >> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons:
> >> the management complications.
> >>
> >> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
> >> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that
> organization.
> >> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
> >>
> >> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
> >> github with healthy communities.
> >>
> >> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
> >> support. The community at large did not support this much.
> >>
> >> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
> >>
> >> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
> >> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the project.
> >> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
> >> folks will.
> >>
> >> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
> >> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I
> have a
> >> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler. That
> >> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
> >>
> >> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
> >> new project would have the same attraction.
> >>
> >> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
> >> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
> >> organizational affiliation.
> >>
> >> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
> >> reboot Aria is this possible?
> >>
> >> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
> >>
> >> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The problem
> >> is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
> >> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
> >>
> >> Shen: Is there a way forward?
> >>
> >> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
> >>
> >> Ido: See comment above.
> >>
> >> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the project.
> >>
> >> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
> >>
> >> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in keeping
> >> it in Apache?
> >>
> >> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
> >>
> >> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than starting
> >> a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the Committers list?
> >>
> >> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
> >>
> >> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
> >>
> >> Shen: We have many improvements.
> >>
> >> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
> >>
> >> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
> >>
> >> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
> >>
> >> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
> >> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
> >>
> >> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the attic
> >> while in parallel working on github.
> >>
> >> How does putting a project into the attic work?
> >>
> >> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
> >> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
> >> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
> >> the attic/rebooting the project.
> >>
> >> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
> >>
> >> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
> >>
> >> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
> >>
> >> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
> >> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we can
> restart the
> >> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom
> could
> >> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
> >>
> >> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
> >>
> >> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
> >>
> >> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it on
> >> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real
> community
> >> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
> >> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
> >>
> >> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
> >> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control,
> >> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your
> roadmap at all?
> >>
> >> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
> >> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the code.
> What
> >> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
> >> forward within the organization (ASF).
> >>
> >> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to
> >> move forward we need people to be active in the project including add
> >> new committers.
> >>
> >> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can
> >> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear
> option.
> >>
> >> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor
> >> to run this project?
> >>
> >> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
> >> need much more community.
> >>
> >> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
> >>
> >> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
> >> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
> >>
> >> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
> >> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
> >> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
> >> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
> >> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
> >> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come
> back Tom and Tal will support that.
> >>
> >> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
> >> this over.
> >>
> >> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
> >>
> >> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
> >>
> >> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If you
> >> go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
> >> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
> >>
> >> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org is
> >> owned by Cloudify.
> >>
> >> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
> >>
> >> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to
> do.
> >>
> >> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
> >>
> >> DJ: yes.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
> >> > <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
> >> > the
> >> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
> >> > This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
> >> > 10AM
> >> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
> >> >
> >> > —Tom
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Begin forwarded message:
> >> >>
> >> >> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
> >> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
> >> >> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
> >> >> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
> >> >> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
> >> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
> >> >> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
> >> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
> >> >>
> >> >> <http://bluejeans.com/>
> >> >> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
> >> >> information
> >> for your video meeting.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
> >> >> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
> >>
> >> >> (Join from computer or phone)
> >> >>
> >> >> Connecting directly from a room system?
> >> >>
> >> >> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
> >> >> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Just want to dial in on your phone?
> >> >>
> >> >> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
> >> >> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
> >> >> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
> >> >> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> >> >> 3.) Press #
> >> >>
> >> >> Want to test your video connection?
> >> >> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
> >> > <Mail Attachment.ics>
> >> > <invite.ics>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
RE: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by S Shenbaga Rajan <s....@ericsson.com>.
Hi Sunil,
Give us couple of days. We are discussing around this topic.
I would come back by end of this week.
Thanks,
/Shen
-----Original Message-----
From: Suneel Marthi [mailto:smarthi@apache.org]
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 5:30 AM
To: dev@ariatosca.incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
@DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us know by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thanks for the call this week.
>
> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau
> <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
>>
>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
>>
>>
>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
>>
>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back
>> to the community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur from Cloudify
>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we were
>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and
>> we thought we could contribute a few things.
>>
>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria
>> (including Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can commit our PRs.
>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
>> community.
>>
>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
>>
>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria
>> at the moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on,
>> and other engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know if
>> that is going to change.
>>
>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither
>> Cloudify nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can
>> take Apache incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status.
>> Can be unfrozen in the future. Taking it out of the attic is much
>> easier than starting a new project. Another option is to fork the
>> project and take it to github (outside of the Apache org).
>>
>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
>>
>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
>> project and will continue on github.
>>
>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and Ericsson).
>>
>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an active
>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the Cloudify
>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an option.
>>
>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA parser
>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
>>
>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
>>
>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
>>
>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons:
>> the management complications.
>>
>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact
>> that the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that organization.
>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
>>
>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
>> github with healthy communities.
>>
>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
>>
>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
>>
>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the project.
>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those
>> folks will.
>>
>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I have a
>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler. That
>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
>>
>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your
>> new project would have the same attraction.
>>
>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
>> organizational affiliation.
>>
>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
>> reboot Aria is this possible?
>>
>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
>>
>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The problem
>> is that the active commiters are no longer interested in
>> participating in the project. Chicken & egg problem.
>>
>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
>>
>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
>>
>> Ido: See comment above.
>>
>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the project.
>>
>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
>>
>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in keeping
>> it in Apache?
>>
>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
>>
>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than starting
>> a github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the Committers list?
>>
>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
>>
>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
>>
>> Shen: We have many improvements.
>>
>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
>>
>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
>>
>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
>>
>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can
>> merge the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
>>
>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the attic
>> while in parallel working on github.
>>
>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
>>
>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your
>> proposal of working on the forked version on github and making the
>> case based on a significant set of contributions to bring it out of
>> the attic/rebooting the project.
>>
>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
>>
>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
>>
>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
>>
>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic.
>> When/if you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we can restart the
>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom could
>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
>>
>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
>>
>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
>>
>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it on
>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real community
>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to
>> terminate the project and Ericsson can continue working.
>>
>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should
>> have goals such as growing the community. If you only want control,
>> you can simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your roadmap at all?
>>
>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the code. What
>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move
>> forward within the organization (ASF).
>>
>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to
>> move forward we need people to be active in the project including add
>> new committers.
>>
>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can
>> vote to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear option.
>>
>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor
>> to run this project?
>>
>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will
>> need much more community.
>>
>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
>>
>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't
>> treat graduation as some ultimate goal.
>>
>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a
>> few weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel
>> suggested the "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I
>> would go with the nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to
>> think about this a lot for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a
>> project with code you did not originally write. If you want to come back Tom and Tal will support that.
>>
>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take
>> this over.
>>
>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
>>
>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
>>
>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If you
>> go forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with
>> Cloudify. The existing site points at that.
>>
>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org is
>> owned by Cloudify.
>>
>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
>>
>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to do.
>>
>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
>>
>> DJ: yes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau
>> > <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was
>> > the
>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
>> > This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at
>> > 10AM
>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
>> >
>> > —Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Begin forwarded message:
>> >>
>> >> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
>> >> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
>> >> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
>> >> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
>> >> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
>> >>
>> >> <http://bluejeans.com/>
>> >> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the
>> >> information
>> for your video meeting.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
>> >> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
>>
>> >> (Join from computer or phone)
>> >>
>> >> Connecting directly from a room system?
>> >>
>> >> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
>> >> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Just want to dial in on your phone?
>> >>
>> >> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
>> >> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
>> >> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
>> >> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>> >> 3.) Press #
>> >>
>> >> Want to test your video connection?
>> >> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
>> > <Mail Attachment.ics>
>> > <invite.ics>
>> >
>>
>>
>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>.
@DJ - any updates - we are due to submit the incubator report , let us know
by tomorrow as to what Ericsson's decision is.
On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 6:11 PM, Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org> wrote:
> Thanks for the call this week.
>
> @DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
>
>
> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
>>
>> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
>>
>>
>> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
>>
>> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
>> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
>> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back to the
>> community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur from Cloudify
>> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we were
>> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and we
>> thought we could contribute a few things.
>>
>> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria (including
>> Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can commit our PRs.
>> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
>> community.
>>
>> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
>>
>> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
>> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria at the
>> moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on, and other
>> engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know if that is going
>> to change.
>>
>> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither Cloudify
>> nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can take Apache
>> incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status. Can be unfrozen in
>> the future. Taking it out of the attic is much easier than starting a new
>> project. Another option is to fork the project and take it to github
>> (outside of the Apache org).
>>
>> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
>>
>> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the
>> project and will continue on github.
>>
>> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and Ericsson).
>>
>> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an active
>> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the Cloudify
>> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an option.
>>
>> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA parser
>> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
>>
>> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
>>
>> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
>>
>> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons: the
>> management complications.
>>
>> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact that
>> the code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that organization.
>> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
>>
>> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
>> github with healthy communities.
>>
>> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild
>> support. The community at large did not support this much.
>>
>> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
>>
>> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
>> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the project.
>> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those folks
>> will.
>>
>> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
>> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I have a
>> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler. That
>> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
>>
>> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your new
>> project would have the same attraction.
>>
>> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
>> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
>> organizational affiliation.
>>
>> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
>> reboot Aria is this possible?
>>
>> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
>>
>> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The problem is
>> that the active commiters are no longer interested in participating in the
>> project. Chicken & egg problem.
>>
>> Shen: Is there a way forward?
>>
>> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
>>
>> Ido: See comment above.
>>
>> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the project.
>>
>> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
>>
>> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in keeping it
>> in Apache?
>>
>> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
>>
>> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than starting a
>> github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the Committers list?
>>
>> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
>>
>> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
>>
>> Shen: We have many improvements.
>>
>> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
>>
>> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
>>
>> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
>>
>> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can merge
>> the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
>>
>> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the attic
>> while in parallel working on github.
>>
>> How does putting a project into the attic work?
>>
>> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your proposal
>> of working on the forked version on github and making the case based on a
>> significant set of contributions to bring it out of the attic/rebooting the
>> project.
>>
>> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
>>
>> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
>>
>> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
>>
>> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic. When/if
>> you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we can restart the
>> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom could
>> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
>>
>> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
>>
>> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
>>
>> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it on
>> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real community
>> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to terminate the
>> project and Ericsson can continue working.
>>
>> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should have
>> goals such as growing the community. If you only want control, you can
>> simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your roadmap at all?
>>
>> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
>> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the code. What
>> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move forward
>> within the organization (ASF).
>>
>> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to move
>> forward we need people to be active in the project including add new
>> committers.
>>
>> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can vote
>> to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear option.
>>
>> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor to
>> run this project?
>>
>> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will need
>> much more community.
>>
>> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
>>
>> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't treat
>> graduation as some ultimate goal.
>>
>> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a few
>> weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel suggested the
>> "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I would go with the
>> nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to think about this a lot
>> for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a project with code you did not
>> originally write. If you want to come back Tom and Tal will support that.
>>
>> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take this
>> over.
>>
>> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
>>
>> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
>>
>> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If you go
>> forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with Cloudify. The
>> existing site points at that.
>>
>> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org is
>> owned by Cloudify.
>>
>> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
>>
>> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to do.
>>
>> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
>>
>> DJ: yes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was the
>> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
>> > This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at 10AM
>> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
>> >
>> > —Tom
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> Begin forwarded message:
>> >>
>> >> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
>> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
>> >> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
>> >> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
>> >> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:
>> tnadeau@lucidvision.com>>
>> >> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
>> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
>> >>
>> >> <http://bluejeans.com/>
>> >> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the information
>> for your video meeting.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
>> >> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
>>
>> >> (Join from computer or phone)
>> >>
>> >> Connecting directly from a room system?
>> >>
>> >> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
>> >> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Just want to dial in on your phone?
>> >>
>> >> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
>> >> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
>> >> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
>> >> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
>> >> 3.) Press #
>> >>
>> >> Want to test your video connection?
>> >> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
>> > <Mail Attachment.ics>
>> > <invite.ics>
>> >
>>
>>
>
Re: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca - Meeting Minutes
Posted by Suneel Marthi <sm...@apache.org>.
Thanks for the call this week.
@DJ, please let us know by next week about Ericsson's decision.
On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 11:17 AM, Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>
wrote:
>
> Discussing the Future of AriaTosca
>
> Monday, May 21, 2018 10-11AM EST
>
>
> Attendees: Tal, Ido, Shen, DJ, Tom Nadeau, Sunil
>
> Tom: Does anyone want to proceed forward with Aria and how?
> DJ: Ericsson has been looking into this project/area. They started
> buildign the missing parts of Aria and wish to contirbute them back to the
> community. Initially we discussed these things with Arthur from Cloudify
> (with Tal) and to help with our contirbutions. Other than that, we were
> always under the assumption that the communit was moving forward and we
> thought we could contribute a few things.
>
> Most recently we have built a lot of components around Aria (including
> Tosca 1.1). Issue is there are no active members that can commit our PRs.
> We are ready to contribute but need to know what the interest of the
> community.
>
> Tom: Tal, Ido? Opinions?
>
> Ido: Speaking on behalf of Cloudify, currently we do not have any
> committers in the Aria project. We are not actively working on Aria at the
> moment - as a company we have other initiatives to work on, and other
> engagements such as LF and ONAP community. I don't know if that is going
> to change.
>
> Tal: I'd like to suggest a few options to move forward. Neither Cloudify
> nor Ericsson can take leadership of the project. You can take Apache
> incubation projects into "The Attic". Different status. Can be unfrozen in
> the future. Taking it out of the attic is much easier than starting a new
> project. Another option is to fork the project and take it to github
> (outside of the Apache org).
>
> Tom: Thats just forking the code on github.
>
> Tal: Yes. We would tell our mentors in ASF that we are leaving the project
> and will continue on github.
>
> Tom: They can fork independently and collaborate (Cloudify and Ericsson).
>
> Tal: Ericsson chose this project because they thought there was an active
> community around an orchestrator. One option is to look into the Cloudify
> "community edition". This does not support TOSCA proper but is an option.
>
> DJ: The important part of your last point was to use a pure TOSCA parser
> implementation. This is why we were in favor of Aria.
>
> I would like to hear from you (Tal) about moving this to github.
>
> Can you explain why this project was started in Apache?
>
> Tal: Pros (to github): more flexibility (including management). Cons: the
> management complications.
>
> Right now Aria is being used by the ONAP project in LF. The fact that the
> code belonged to a foundation made it attractive to that organization.
> WIth that said, Aria does not have a big place.
>
> There are many successful reasons for how projects are successful on
> github with healthy communities.
>
> I worked hard to get support within Apache for Aria and got mild support.
> The community at large did not support this much.
>
> Sunil: This is exactly the question I asked to Arthur a year ago.
>
> Tal: This made sense because it helped us join the open-o and onap
> communities. We hoped those folks would contribute back to the project.
> Unfortunately those folks haven't, and I am not hopeful that those folks
> will.
>
> I am actually working on a next-generation of Aria. I am rewriting
> everything in scratch in Go to create a stateless parser (TOSCA). I have a
> lot of faith in TOSCA but the approach needs to be a lot simpler. That
> might be out there on the community to collaborate with.
>
> DJ: As you already pointed out, we are trying to understand if your new
> project would have the same attraction.
>
> Sunil: Attracting contributors is not necessarily related to Apache.
> Tensorflow is a massive project that is just on github without any
> organizational affiliation.
>
> Shen: Cloudify started this project on Apache. If Ericsson wants to
> reboot Aria is this possible?
>
> Shen introduces himself as a Product Manager at Ericsson.
>
> Suneel: Once the project is part of ASF its owned by ASF. The problem is
> that the active commiters are no longer interested in participating in the
> project. Chicken & egg problem.
>
> Shen: Is there a way forward?
>
> Suneel: Ido what are Cloudify's plans going forward?
>
> Ido: See comment above.
>
> Suneel: Cloudify has no stake currently in participating in the project.
>
> Ido: I am just saying this is the current status.
>
> Tal: There might be interest in Aria but is there interest in keeping it
> in Apache?
>
> Tom: This is one remedy to the chicken&egg problem.
>
> Ido: I think it would be better to keep it under Apache than starting a
> github project. Why can't we just add Ericsson to the Committers list?
>
> Suneel: Do we have any PRs that need to be merged?
>
> DJ: We have many things which we wish to contribute.
>
> Shen: We have many improvements.
>
> Tom: Are they ready as a PR?
>
> Shen: Not yet. But we have many changes that are to be made ready.
>
> Tom: I think I merged about 6 PRs for DJ/Ericsson.
>
> Suneel: The problem is that there are no active committers that can merge
> the PRs but there are no PRs that can merge/review the PRs.
>
> TOM: There might be a way forward by putting the project in the attic
> while in parallel working on github.
>
> How does putting a project into the attic work?
>
> Suneel: I never saw a project moved out of the attic. But your proposal
> of working on the forked version on github and making the case based on a
> significant set of contributions to bring it out of the attic/rebooting the
> project.
>
> Tal: Does ASF have a short cut/emergency way to advance committers?
>
> Suneel: Could Tom/Tal review/merge PRs ?
>
> Tal: I have no interest on moving forward on the project.
>
> Suneel: Consensus is to move the project into the Apache Attic. When/if
> you guys would like to bring back the code from github, we can restart the
> project. We have no committers to review/commit PRs. If Tal/Tom could
> lower the bar for committers, this could work too.
>
> TOm: There are no existing ASF comitters left in Cloudify's employ
>
> Tal: What is Cloudify's position Ido? You've been very diplomatic.
>
> Ido: Ericsson can continue with their own copy of Aria and develop it on
> their own, but this is not a community. But there was no real community
> when Cloudify was working on this actively. We can decide to terminate the
> project and Ericsson can continue working.
>
> Tal: This is not only about control of the project, but you should have
> goals such as growing the community. If you only want control, you can
> simply fork the code on git. Is the community part on your roadmap at all?
>
> Shen: Yes, this was on our roadmap. But now that the situation has
> changed... It was our plan. For now the plan is to work on the code. What
> I am hearing from suneel without existing committers we cannot move forward
> within the organization (ASF).
>
> Suneel: we have committers but none have a stake in the project. to move
> forward we need people to be active in the project including add new
> committers.
>
> Tal: We can rubber stamp PRs. But we can accept them and then we can vote
> to accept DJ etc... as a new committers. That is the nuclear option.
>
> Suneel: The question is: is this really worth it for a single vendor to
> run this project?
>
> Ido: If you want to graduate from apache incubation, Ericsson will need
> much more community.
>
> Tom: Community is important to move this forward.
>
> Tal: Graduation is not necessarily an indication of success. Don't treat
> graduation as some ultimate goal.
>
> I think we have a bunch of ideas here. Maybe we can meet again in a few
> weeks. The ball appears to be in Ericsson's court. Suneel suggested the
> "nuclear option". Tom and I don't really care. I would go with the
> nuclear option. My advice to the E// folks is to think about this a lot
> for yourselves. It is a lot of work taking a project with code you did not
> originally write. If you want to come back Tom and Tal will support that.
>
> Suneel: That is fine with me but is Ericsson really ready to take this
> over.
>
> Tom: Just post to the mailing list.
>
> Suneel: The other option is again to fork it on github and use that.
>
> Tal: There is an AriaTosca website that is owned by Cloudify. If you go
> forward with that, Ericsson should have some discussion with Cloudify. The
> existing site points at that.
>
> Tom: The site is incubator.ariatosca.apache.org The ariatosca.org is
> owned by Cloudify.
>
> DJ: We will have a discussion internally and let the community know.
>
> Tom: Please push that to the mailing list whatever you decide what to do.
>
> Suneel: would you also like to look at what Tal is looking at?
>
> DJ: yes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 18, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Thomas Nadeau <tn...@lucidvision.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sorry for the fits and starts with the last invite. That was the
> first meeting invite I’d created with the BJeans system.
> > This one should be correctly scheduled for Monday, May 21 at 10AM
> EST and have a more appealing headline/title.
> >
> > —Tom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Begin forwarded message:
> >>
> >> From: Thomas Nadeau via BlueJeans Network <invite@bluejeans.com
> <ma...@bluejeans.com>>
> >> Subject: Updated: Discuss The Future Of AriaTosca
> >> Date: May 18, 2018 at 2:35:40 PM EDT
> >> To: Thomas Nadeau <tnadeau@lucidvision.com <mailto:tnadeau@lucidvision.
> com>>
> >> Reply-To: "Thomas Nadeau" <tnadeau@redhat.com <mailto:
> tnadeau@redhat.com>>
> >>
> >> <http://bluejeans.com/>
> >> Thomas Nadeau <ma...@redhat.com> has updated the information
> for your video meeting.
> >>
> >>
> >> To join from a Red Hat Deskphone or Softphone, dial: 84336.
> >> Join Meeting <https://bluejeans.com/7897462078?src=htmlEmail>
>
> >> (Join from computer or phone)
> >>
> >> Connecting directly from a room system?
> >>
> >> 1.) Dial: 199.48.152.152 or bjn.vc
> >> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> >>
> >>
> >> Just want to dial in on your phone?
> >>
> >> 1.) Dial one of the following numbers:
> >> 408-915-6466 <tel:408-915-6466> (US)
> >> See all numbers <https://www.redhat.com/en/conference-numbers>
> >> 2.) Enter Meeting ID: 7897462078
> >> 3.) Press #
> >>
> >> Want to test your video connection?
> >> https://bluejeans.com/111 <https://bluejeans.com/111?ll=en>
> > <Mail Attachment.ics>
> > <invite.ics>
> >
>
>