Re: [certification]

[Jimi Thompson <jt...@link.com>]

Eric,

You fail to understand that while you are probably a geeks dream boss, you are not the
average PHB.  Heck, your hair is probably limp ;).  The idea here is to gain acceptance
and even status with the PHB.  PHB's like paper.  It doesn't matter if its a useful
piece of paper or not (MCSE's are a PRIME example of a useless paper - as are many
college degrees).  They live for paper.  Its job security for them.  It makes them feel
warm and fuzzy inside.  It also allows them to cover their butts should anything go
wrong with said hire-ee.

Eric Strovink wrote:

> Somebody wrote:
>
> > > If I'm way off base, please let me know.  I'm spending considerable
> > > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know.  I
> > > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > > out my wife . . .
>
> You're way off base.  Figure out the wife.  I've never hired a "certified" engineer,
> and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit.
>
> In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong
> guy*.  Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years.
> This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another
> compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different.  You hire him
> for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and
> productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him.  And
> believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out
> mod_perl.
>
> Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's
> passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to <mumble>.  Uh, no
> thanks.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: modperl-unsubscribe@apache.org
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--
Jimi Thompson
Web Master
L3 communications

"It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky."

Re: [certification]

[Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>]

At 05:55 PM 12/7/00 -0600, Jimi Thompson wrote:
>Geeks know its just paper and that paper three appropriate uses (for 
>writing on, paper
>airplanes, and TP).  Geeks know that paper doesn't pass for 
>credentials.  The PHB's haven't

You miss the point.

It's not about credentials in a boolean sense. It's about probability and 
statistics.

Someone who has credentials/training on their CV increases the probability 
that they know something, it doesn't mean they definitely know something.

Obviously they still have to be technically interviewed, but in lieu of 
someone with or without certification, it's easier to short-list on the 
basis of such certification (or some equivalent outstanding thing such as 
contributing to CPAN).

Everyone knows that a University Degree in CS doesn't mean someone is a 
great programmer. And there's a ton of people out there who prove 
otherwise. BUT out of people who are hacks and people who have degrees in 
CS, the people with degrees in CS have a tendency to have a background that 
make them better programmers.

Also different types of certs have different probabilities. A lot of people 
know MCSE means little nowadays. But an MCSD is fairly difficult from what 
I understand. And on the other end of the spectrum, the couple of people I 
know who are fully 100% CISCO certified through and through are like 
networking Gods (at least to me).

Degrees and certifications help narrow things down. It doesn't mean they 
are perfect, but they definitely are not just TP as you so eloquently put it.

Re: [certification]

[Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>]

At 06:30 PM 12/7/2000 -0800, Rob Tanner wrote:


>--On Thursday, December 07, 2000 05:55:41 PM -0600 Jimi Thompson 
><jt...@link.com> wrote:
>
>>See - I KNEW IT!!!
>>
>>You aren't a PHB.  You have to look at this like a PHB.  PHB's don't care 
>>if the
>>paper means anything relevant.  PHB's live for Plausible Deniability and 
>>Glory
>>Hogging.  If they can't take credit for it, they don't want to get blamed 
>>for it
>>either.
>>
>>If anything goes wrong, they want to be able to say that he had <fill in the
>>blank> so I thought he was qualified.  On the other hand, if it does well 
>>then he
>>can then take the credit because the person he hired had <fill in the blank>.
>
>That may well be true -- I won't dispute it.  :-)
>
>But the real question is, and maybe this is the pivotal point of the whole 
>issue -- is that the kind of place you want to work at?
>
>Where the hiring process becomes so separated from the actual work that 
>you're evaluated by your certificates, you and your certificates become 
>one and are interchangeable.  You're no longer a whole and complete person 
>and become reduced to but a "certificate" of your former self.  It's a 
>dehumanization, and unfortunately, a fairly wide-spread trend.  On the up 
>side, however, it does tell me where to not even bother applying.

I've never been in a place that only hired people with certificates. But 
again, to me it's not about the certs being a boolean decision to hire or 
not, it's about probabilities.

If someone doesn't have experience except they have a cert, I'll see them.

If you have no cert but you have demonstrated experience on your CV, I'll 
see you.

If you have no cert and no demonstrated experience, unless I am desperate 
or am willing to hire interns/juniors (which I do hire but its not 
appropriate for some projects), I won't see you.

As a person doing hiring, I don't think I am alone in this matter.

So the certs, degrees, training stuff all help. And it's not dehumanizing. 
It's just another factor on the CV that can help boost someone's chances of 
getting noticed among all the CVs that lie and say they know Perl with 
nothing to back it up.

Re: [certification]

[Rob Tanner <rt...@cheshire.onlinemac.com>]

--On Thursday, December 07, 2000 05:55:41 PM -0600 Jimi Thompson <jt...@link.com> wrote:

> See - I KNEW IT!!!
>
> You aren't a PHB.  You have to look at this like a PHB.  PHB's don't care if the
> paper means anything relevant.  PHB's live for Plausible Deniability and Glory
> Hogging.  If they can't take credit for it, they don't want to get blamed for it
> either.
>
> If anything goes wrong, they want to be able to say that he had <fill in the
> blank> so I thought he was qualified.  On the other hand, if it does well then he
> can then take the credit because the person he hired had <fill in the blank>.

That may well be true -- I won't dispute it.  :-)

But the real question is, and maybe this is the pivotal point of the whole issue -- 
is that the kind of place you want to work at?

Where the hiring process becomes so separated from the actual work that you're evaluated by your certificates, you and your certificates become one and are interchangeable.  You're no longer a whole and complete person and become reduced to but a "certificate" of your former self.  It's a dehumanization, and unfortunately, a fairly wide-spread trend.  On the up side, however, it does tell me where to not even bother applying.

-- Rob


       _ _ _ _           _    _ _ _ _ _
      /\_\_\_\_\        /\_\ /\_\_\_\_\_\
     /\/_/_/_/_/       /\/_/ \/_/_/_/_/_/  QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT,
    /\/_/__\/_/ __    /\/_/    /\/_/          PROFUNDUM VIDITUR
   /\/_/_/_/_/ /\_\  /\/_/    /\/_/
  /\/_/ \/_/  /\/_/_/\/_/    /\/_/         (Whatever is said in Latin
  \/_/  \/_/  \/_/_/_/_/     \/_/              appears profound)

  Rob Tanner
  McMinnville, Oregon
  rtanner@cheshire.onlinemac.com

Re: [certification]

[Jimi Thompson <jt...@link.com>]

See - I KNEW IT!!!

You aren't a PHB.  You have to look at this like a PHB.  PHB's don't care if the paper means
anything relevant.  PHB's live for Plausible Deniability and Glory Hogging.  If they can't
take credit for it, they don't want to get blamed for it either.

If anything goes wrong, they want to be able to say that he had <fill in the blank> so I
thought he was qualified.  On the other hand, if it does well then he can then take the
credit because the person he hired had <fill in the blank>.

Heck, I got started in the IT business professionally years ago because I fooled a PHB into
letting me take over his network while working on a degree in Biochemistry.  He actually
thought it had something to do with computers.

Geeks know its just paper and that paper three appropriate uses (for writing on, paper
airplanes, and TP).  Geeks know that paper doesn't pass for credentials.  The PHB's haven't
gotten around to that idea yet.  They probably never will.   Personally, I don't mind getting
the paper.  It usually means that the PHB's are willing to put more zero's on my paycheck
because I have acquired another piece of paper.  Getting more zero's from the PHB's is a good
thing.



Eric Strovink wrote:

> You smoked me out -- lots of hair, all limp.  And yes, I am a "geeks dream boss."  I'm a
> geek.
>
> Jimi Thompson wrote:
>
> > Eric,
> >
> > You fail to understand that while you are probably a geeks dream boss, you are not the
> > average PHB.  Heck, your hair is probably limp ;).  The idea here is to gain acceptance
> > and even status with the PHB.  PHB's like paper.  It doesn't matter if its a useful
> > piece of paper or not (MCSE's are a PRIME example of a useless paper - as are many
> > college degrees).  They live for paper.  Its job security for them.  It makes them feel
> > warm and fuzzy inside.  It also allows them to cover their butts should anything go
> > wrong with said hire-ee.
> >
> > Eric Strovink wrote:
> >
> > > Somebody wrote:
> > >
> > > > > If I'm way off base, please let me know.  I'm spending considerable
> > > > > brain power on this idea and if I'm wasting it, I need to know.  I
> > > > > don't have much spare brain power and I could use it to try to figure
> > > > > out my wife . . .
> > >
> > > You're way off base.  Figure out the wife.  I've never hired a "certified" engineer,
> > > and almost without exception the ones I've come across were empty sacks of shit.
> > >
> > > In fact, I've had great success doing exactly the opposite, and *hiring the wrong
> > > guy*.  Take a person who's been writing compiler back ends for the last 10 years.
> > > This person is constantly pigeonholed by every headhunter out there into yet another
> > > compiler job, and he'd give his eye teeth to do something different.  You hire him
> > > for something completely different, and he ends up being the most enthusiastic and
> > > productive person you've got, because everything's new and exciting to him.  And
> > > believe me, folks, if he can write the back end to a compiler, he can figure out
> > > mod_perl.
> > >
> > > Or, I could hire Ferd over here, with a limp certificate from Randal saying he's
> > > passed some clever little test on the six most obscure ways to <mumble>.  Uh, no
> > > thanks.
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: modperl-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: modperl-help@apache.org
> >
> > --
> > Jimi Thompson
> > Web Master
> > L3 communications
> >
> > "It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky."

--
Jimi Thompson
Web Master
L3 communications

"It's the same thing we do every night, Pinky."