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Posted to general@james.apache.org by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> on 2007/08/16 12:19:47 UTC
[VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Hi,
The thread "[Proposal] James News List & Feed" has come to a consensus
amongst robert Stefano and I, therefore would you please vote on the
following item:
James news is awkward to update, because it requires two xml files to
be edited, and the site to be generated and checked back in, then the
web server to be updated. Using an external blogging service will
considerably reduce that bar and possibly result in us publishing news
more often. So
[ ] +1 I a agree
[ ] 0 I don't care
[ ] -1 I disagree
That the James PMC establish a blog on blogger at
http://apache-james.blogspot.com/ (theres a trial you can see up there
right now)
That this blog be used by james commiters only
That it be used to publish official project announcements and news
That updates are emailed to the site-dev list for comit-then-review oversight.
That feedburner be used to produce javascript to embed in the james
homepage to display headlines from the news (as per this page
http://www.killerbees.co.uk/mailfeedtest.html which displays the five
most recent email subject headers from the mailet-api lists as news
headlines)
d.
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de>.
As much as I like the general idea to facilitate the edition of the
website, I have issues with the proposal.
In short:
+ Committers would be required to have/create a Google account
+ A company might earn money with displaying our project's content
(since the blog would be visible on it's own, right?)
+ If Google messed up the backup or decides to take the service down, we
potentially loose our content
+ This is for publishing 'official' content, only our website should be
authourative for.
+ The original problem (website change is time-consuming) is not resolved.
Danny Angus wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The thread "[Proposal] James News List & Feed" has come to a consensus
> amongst robert Stefano and I, therefore would you please vote on the
> following item:
>
> James news is awkward to update, because it requires two xml files to
> be edited, and the site to be generated and checked back in, then the
> web server to be updated. Using an external blogging service will
> considerably reduce that bar and possibly result in us publishing news
> more often.
>
All things considered, my vote is
[X] -0 I do care, but won't hold up you guys, if you'd invest time in
doing this.
Bernd
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
[X] +1 I a agree
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Matveenko <se...@matveenko.ru>.
+1
On 8/16/07, Danny Angus <da...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> The thread "[Proposal] James News List & Feed" has come to a consensus
> amongst robert Stefano and I, therefore would you please vote on the
> following item:
>
> James news is awkward to update, because it requires two xml files to
> be edited, and the site to be generated and checked back in, then the
> web server to be updated. Using an external blogging service will
> considerably reduce that bar and possibly result in us publishing news
> more often. So
>
> [ ] +1 I a agree
> [ ] 0 I don't care
> [ ] -1 I disagree
>
> That the James PMC establish a blog on blogger at
> http://apache-james.blogspot.com/ (theres a trial you can see up there
> right now)
>
> That this blog be used by james commiters only
>
> That it be used to publish official project announcements and news
>
> That updates are emailed to the site-dev list for comit-then-review
> oversight.
>
> That feedburner be used to produce javascript to embed in the james
> homepage to display headlines from the news (as per this page
> http://www.killerbees.co.uk/mailfeedtest.html which displays the five
> most recent email subject headers from the mailet-api lists as news
> headlines)
>
>
> d.
>
--
Serge Matveenko
+7 951 673 40 32
http://serge.matveenko.ru/
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> On 8/16/07, Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com> wrote:
>
>> I consider the ASF infrastructure to be largely an embarrassment, but
>> also a function of not enough $$$ to do what we need. If you guys want
>> to take stuff offsite, that's cool with me.
>
> We're not going to get it done on asf infra as far as I can guess.
> I hadn't proposed doing it this way before because I thought like you,
> it should probably be here.
> I now realise that there are two parts to this vote, 1/ should we do
> this at all, 2/ should we do it off site. :-/ Bah.
If we can demonstrate we'll be able to exercise proper oversight of
this, I think you guys can run with it. Seems like you are, but
oversight is the key issue AFAIK. We're not talking about moving the
entire site somewhere else either, which would be a more significant move.
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 8/16/07, Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com> wrote:
> I consider the ASF infrastructure to be largely an embarrassment, but
> also a function of not enough $$$ to do what we need. If you guys want
> to take stuff offsite, that's cool with me.
We're not going to get it done on asf infra as far as I can guess.
I hadn't proposed doing it this way before because I thought like you,
it should probably be here.
I now realise that there are two parts to this vote, 1/ should we do
this at all, 2/ should we do it off site. :-/ Bah.
d.
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I consider the ASF infrastructure to be largely an embarrassment
Not a helpful comment, and read by the Infra Team (and discussed on IRC).
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> [ ] +1 I a agree
> [ ] 0 I don't care
> [ ] -1 I disagree
+0.
I consider the ASF infrastructure to be largely an embarrassment, but
also a function of not enough $$$ to do what we need. If you guys want
to take stuff offsite, that's cool with me.
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
> Stefano Bagnara wrote:
>> Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
>>> Stefano Bagnara wrote:
>> Can you kindly forward me the interesting message/s or tell me what is
>> the message number (you can find it in the return path address) so that
>> I can request it to the mlm as soon as they accept my subscription?
>
> should be 33409
Thank you! I'm subscribed now, and I'm requesting old messages (even if
the current MLM make it a PITA to request old messages as you get them
as attachments).
see you on infrastructure ;-)
Stefano
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
>> Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> Can you kindly forward me the interesting message/s or tell me what is
> the message number (you can find it in the return path address) so that
> I can request it to the mlm as soon as they accept my subscription?
should be 33409
Bernd
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
> Stefano Bagnara wrote:
>> I would be anyway interested in a link to the discussion (if this is an
>> open discussion and if possible) to better understand what they are
>> proposing, what are the timings and so on.
>
> for example, see the thread cc'ed to infra by Henning on the 14th.
>
> Bernd
Arg... I think I never got subscribed to infrastructure list and it has
no public archives. I just tried subscribing again, let's hope they will
moderate my subscription, this time :-)
Can you kindly forward me the interesting message/s or tell me what is
the message number (you can find it in the return path address) so that
I can request it to the mlm as soon as they accept my subscription?
Thank you very much,
Stefano
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> I would be anyway interested in a link to the discussion (if this is an
> open discussion and if possible) to better understand what they are
> proposing, what are the timings and so on.
for example, see the thread cc'ed to infra by Henning on the 14th.
Bernd
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I would be anyway interested in a link to the discussion (if this is an
> open discussion and if possible) to better understand what they are
> proposing, what are the timings and so on.
It is all being discussed on the infrastructure team's mailing list. Norman
is there, IIRC, and apparently so is Bernd.
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
> Stefano Bagnara wrote:
>> Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
>>> Strongly -1 to an external blog at http://apache-james.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> If/when there is a blog service running on the ASF infrastructure
>>> with our
>>> QOS and ability to maintain it, fine. And there is discussion on that
>>> on-going, since we have Roller.
>>>
>>> --- Noel
>>
>> I didn't know we have Roller: can you give me a pointer, so I read
>> something (about how to request it, how it works, what machine host it,
>> and so on)?
>
> "have Roller" = "have Roller project @ASF" <> "have it running as a ASF
> service". There is no such service yet as Noel pointed out in the
> statement you are quoting.
Thank you: now I think I understand it. Sorry but I have problems about
how "present" is used in english vs italian.
I would be anyway interested in a link to the discussion (if this is an
open discussion and if possible) to better understand what they are
proposing, what are the timings and so on.
Stefano
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
>> Strongly -1 to an external blog at http://apache-james.blogspot.com/
>>
>> If/when there is a blog service running on the ASF infrastructure with our
>> QOS and ability to maintain it, fine. And there is discussion on that
>> on-going, since we have Roller.
>>
>> --- Noel
>
> I didn't know we have Roller: can you give me a pointer, so I read
> something (about how to request it, how it works, what machine host it,
> and so on)?
"have Roller" = "have Roller project @ASF" <> "have it running as a ASF
service". There is no such service yet as Noel pointed out in the
statement you are quoting.
RE: JSPWiki@Apache (Was: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> JSPWiki first have to become an Apache project, then it has to be
> supported by Infra team: I guess not less than 18 months at best.
Actually, when they come into the Incubator, I'd encourage them to follow
their own stated goal to become our Wiki. They would need to be able to
import, to provide a similar Wiki farm with oversight, notification,
cachability, etc., but those are mileposts for them. How long? Up to them
to a certain extent. If they deliver, I don't anticipate too much much
resistance, especially if we've moved forward on our ability to sandbox and
deploy new web apps.
--- Noel
JSPWiki@Apache (Was: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news)
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> As for Wikis, see http://rollerweblogger.org/roller/entry/jspwiki_apache
> (and then follow the links). I certainly would not be surprised to see us
> switch from MoinMoin...
Just an Off Topic pointer. I know JSPWiki is LGPL and they are some
years old: IMHO it will be a long long way to check IP/copyrights and to
ask every contributor the grant to move from LGPL to ASL.
Then, it first have to become an Apache project, then it has to be
supported by Infra team: I guess not less than 18 months at best.
But this is indeed something to keep monitored for a better future.
Stefano
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> You illustrated a pretty cool *FUTURE*.
I agree, and as for the rest:
> Let's back talking of the present :-) What can we do to simplify
> our homepage editing (or at least news editing) *tomorrow*?
Right, this is why I asked you to detail the workflow you are proposing in
some of your recent messages. :-) It sounded as if something I could
accept was emerging.
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> Stefano Bagnara wrote:
>
>> AFAIK our current wiki does not support automatically export the content
>> with a custom layout and does not support exporting RSS and other blog
>> like features.
>
> OK, back to a blog and atom feed. Back to sending e-mail, as Danny wanted,
> and having it aggregated. Fine. :-) And I'd really like to see this on
> our front page, not some other site. Not sure how that would best be
> accomplished.
>
> As for Wikis, see http://rollerweblogger.org/roller/entry/jspwiki_apache
> (and then follow the links). I certainly would not be surprised to see us
> switch from MoinMoin, and I am very much in favor of eating our own dogfood,
> both to improve the dogfood, and because since it is ours, we ought to have
> a community interested in maintaining it. Just as I am sure that if JAMES
> were used to run ASF e-mail (not ready yet), we'd be keenly interested in
> making sure it worked and worked well.
>
> Keep in mind that we're talking about moving to JCR as a backend, JSPWiki is
> doing so, I've talked with Dave Johnson about it ... opening up even more
> avenues, which ought to make Danny happy, since I know that he really likes
> integration. :-)
>
> --- Noel
You illustrated a pretty cool *FUTURE*. Let's back talking of the
present :-) What can we do to simplify our homepage editing (or at least
news editing) *tomorrow*?
Stefano
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> AFAIK our current wiki does not support automatically export the content
> with a custom layout and does not support exporting RSS and other blog
> like features.
OK, back to a blog and atom feed. Back to sending e-mail, as Danny wanted,
and having it aggregated. Fine. :-) And I'd really like to see this on
our front page, not some other site. Not sure how that would best be
accomplished.
As for Wikis, see http://rollerweblogger.org/roller/entry/jspwiki_apache
(and then follow the links). I certainly would not be surprised to see us
switch from MoinMoin, and I am very much in favor of eating our own dogfood,
both to improve the dogfood, and because since it is ours, we ought to have
a community interested in maintaining it. Just as I am sure that if JAMES
were used to run ASF e-mail (not ready yet), we'd be keenly interested in
making sure it worked and worked well.
Keep in mind that we're talking about moving to JCR as a backend, JSPWiki is
doing so, I've talked with Dave Johnson about it ... opening up even more
avenues, which ought to make Danny happy, since I know that he really likes
integration. :-)
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> Stefano Bagnara wrote:
>
>> I didn't know we have Roller: can you give me a pointer
>
> http://roller.apache.org
>
> It has been a TLP for a while, and was in the Incubator before that. See
> other e-mails from me today regarding getting Roller into production as an
> ASF-hosted service for projects.
Yes, I know Roller, I was confused by "we have Roller" because I thought
ASF already provided also Roller as a service for the projects, like we
have JIRA, Confluence, MoinMoin and others.
>> What about the idea of having a blog using an ASF hosted confluence
>> space?
>
> I already replied. Confluence isn't a blog; it is a Wiki. We already have
> a Wiki for JAMES, if that's all you want.
AFAIK our current wiki does not support automatically export the content
with a custom layout and does not support exporting RSS and other blog
like features.
Stefano
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> I didn't know we have Roller: can you give me a pointer
http://roller.apache.org
It has been a TLP for a while, and was in the Incubator before that. See
other e-mails from me today regarding getting Roller into production as an
ASF-hosted service for projects.
> What about the idea of having a blog using an ASF hosted confluence
> space?
I already replied. Confluence isn't a blog; it is a Wiki. We already have
a Wiki for JAMES, if that's all you want.
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> Strongly -1 to an external blog at http://apache-james.blogspot.com/
>
> If/when there is a blog service running on the ASF infrastructure with our
> QOS and ability to maintain it, fine. And there is discussion on that
> on-going, since we have Roller.
>
> --- Noel
I didn't know we have Roller: can you give me a pointer, so I read
something (about how to request it, how it works, what machine host it,
and so on)?
What about the idea of having a blog using an ASF hosted confluence
space? I started a vote to integrate this one: would a confluence blog
satisfy your concerns?
Stefano
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
IMO We are looking for a very simple way to post (and revise) content
which can be viewed on the web (news archive) and syndicated without
going through the lousy web-site update process.
d.
On 8/19/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Danny, Serge, et al,
>
> Are we looking for a Blog or an RSS Feed? That was asked specifically on
> infra today.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 8/19/07, Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de> wrote:
> Do you mean, by attracting people to a Google blog (the stand-alone
> blog, not the content syndicated into the project's home page), which is
> accompanied by Google ads, we are in fact generating revenue for the
> ASF? ;-)
There are *No* ads.
>
> For the sake of independence and self-governance (or whatever is the
> appropriate english term here) the ASF should try to be as self-hosting
> as possible.
The cost of that is that we have to find enough people with both
skills and time available to provide a service of a quality which
matches our global reach and reputation.
>
> We should avoid anything supporting the stupid "Apache is owned by [put
> company name here]" acusations.
Agreed, but I fail to see how using a free blogging service for our
news items, and it could be *any* free blog service, would add much
weight to that argument.
d.
>
> Bernd
>
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Bernd Fondermann wrote:
> For the sake of independence and self-governance (or whatever is the
> appropriate english term here) the ASF should try to be as self-hosting
> as possible.
I complete agree, we should *try*. Given that there is not an option to
do what we want, IMHO it seems reasonable to consider alternatives that
do not tax a group of volunteers, a thankless group that the
organization has chosen to keep largely volunteer-based and minimally
funded.
FWIW a new board member has voiced some long time views of ASF hosting
features, and that has created something of a firestorm. I think this
is an unfair burden to put on the infrastructure team, but if they want
to scratch the itch, that's great.
Mind you, I'm still +0 on the idea. :) I don't think it's perfect but
bristle at these claims that we are violating faux official policies.
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de>.
Serge Knystautas wrote:
> Danny Angus wrote:
>> Besides which, get real, outsourcing isn't the same as selling your
>> soul to the devil, normal people do it every day.
>
> +1. Besides, the proposal is to use the services of the ASF's largest
> sponsor. The left hand may be upset about losing its soul to a free
> service, but the right hand has already sold the soul for a platinum
> sponsorship.
Do you mean, by attracting people to a Google blog (the stand-alone
blog, not the content syndicated into the project's home page), which is
accompanied by Google ads, we are in fact generating revenue for the
ASF? ;-)
For the sake of independence and self-governance (or whatever is the
appropriate english term here) the ASF should try to be as self-hosting
as possible.
We should avoid anything supporting the stupid "Apache is owned by [put
company name here]" acusations.
Bernd
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> Besides which, get real, outsourcing isn't the same as selling your
> soul to the devil, normal people do it every day.
+1. Besides, the proposal is to use the services of the ASF's largest
sponsor. The left hand may be upset about losing its soul to a free
service, but the right hand has already sold the soul for a platinum
sponsorship.
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> FWIW I had though of making this proposal a long time ago, several
> months before the current debate, but having put my 2c in it was
> made clear to me that there was much less appetite in infra for
> having blogs.apache than there was any kind of idea that project
> news has to be hosted by the ASF.
Well, there are people who are just obstructionist with bad attitudes, but
that is not acceptable there, either. They are conditioned by our
experiences with JIRA, Confluence, Continuum, et al.
> when we do manage to corral enough mugs to support blogs.apache
> we'll be exactly how old?
Depends on how serious the Roller PMC is about wanting to maintain an
instance. I will try to find out.
--- Noel
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Danny, Serge, et al,
Are we looking for a Blog or an RSS Feed? That was asked specifically on
infra today.
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 8/19/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> We're part of a community that has QoS, lifespan and support requirements.
> The ASF doesn't host important things on non-ASF infrastructure. Transient
> toys, fine.
I don't think James news is "important things" enough for anyone to
care if it is hosted off site. As long as we maintain oversight.
> Coincidentally, this very topic has been the most active discussion for the
> Infrastructure team over the past week or so, regarding supporting and
> hosting applications for ASF use. I've already suggested that Roller be the
> pilot.
Yeah and we all know how well that is going. And FWIW I had though of
making this proposal a long time ago, several months before the
current debate, but having put my 2c in it was made clear to me that
there was much less appetite in infra for having blogs.apache than
there was any kind of idea that project news has to be hosted by the
ASF.
Besides which, get real, outsourcing isn't the same as selling your
soul to the devil, normal people do it every day.
> At least for the moment, we are talking about requirements to ensure
> appropriate levels support, and how to enable volunteers, not hiring
> additional staff to run applications.
And when we do manage to corral enough mugs to support blogs.apache
we'll be exactly how old?
d.
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Bernd Fondermann ha scritto:
> Serge Knystautas wrote:
>> In any case, the roller solution is a possible future solution, not
>> something available today or even definite in the foreseeable future.
>
> But we have an established process for publishing content. We could wait
> (and engage with infra to help and build a solution) and meanwhile try
> to improve this process in a way that _all_ web pages are easier to
> maintain and update, not only headline news. To me, this would be more
> useful than to have more and faster news.
Would something like automatically exported confluence spaces address
this problem, in your opinion?
Otherwise, what are you thinking about to improve the process?
Stefano
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 8/19/07, Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de> wrote:
> Serge Knystautas wrote:
> > In any case, the roller solution is a possible future solution,
> > not something available today or even definite in the foreseeable future.
>
> But we have an established process for publishing content. We could wait
> (and engage with infra to help and build a solution) and meanwhile try
> to improve this process in a way that _all_ web pages are easier to
> maintain and update, not only headline news. To me, this would be more
> useful than to have more and faster news.
I wouldn't dispute this. But it is a fact that news is the thing we
should update most often and making news story easy to post would be a
quick win, 80% of the benefit for very little effort.
What's more the proposal doesn't involve any hidden cost of hosting or
administration by anyone other than James PMC members. In particular
there is zero burden on infrastructure@
d.
>
> Bernd
>
>
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <bf...@brainlounge.de>.
Serge Knystautas wrote:
> In any case, the roller solution is a possible future solution,
> not something available today or even definite in the foreseeable future.
But we have an established process for publishing content. We could wait
(and engage with infra to help and build a solution) and meanwhile try
to improve this process in a way that _all_ web pages are easier to
maintain and update, not only headline news. To me, this would be more
useful than to have more and faster news.
Bernd
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> import generated static HTML into SVN. Perhaps you misunderstood me.
As long as I'm trying to understand YOU and not what you imply is the
ASF's opinion. :) We'll have far more success coming to a conclusion.
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
RE: Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > As I understand it, the gist of it seems to be that we'd have a
generated
> > file based on our feed
> There are two steps in this...
> 1/ easy posting which results in a feed.
> 2/ use the feed
And those would address the primary goal, which you've expressed as:
> We are looking for a very simple way to post (and revise) content
> which can be viewed on the web (news archive) and syndicated
> without going through the lousy web-site update process.
and also wrote:
> it is a fact that news is the thing we should update most often
> and making news story easy to post would be a quick win, 80% of
> the benefit for very little effort.
and with which I very definitely agree.
> I'm +1 to using anything which Sam recommends, sight unseen,
> because he knows much more about this stuff than I ever will.
As I understand it, we tell Sam from where to fetch the news, and he
provides us with the syndicated page. Sam?
Sam, could you fetch from a defined location in SVN? That might satisfy the
desire to have editorial control that Danny, and particularly Stefano, raise
as a concern. We could stage the news articles in svn, move them to a
defined location when approved, and still have the ability to make
corrections. Or are changes not permitted once published? Even so, we
could address the review concerns.
--- Noel
Re: Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 8/20/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> As I understand it, the gist of it seems to be that we'd have a generated
> file based on our feed
What feed, square one we don't have a feed.
There are two steps in this...
1/ easy posting which results in a feed.
2/ use the feed
I'm +1 to using anything which Sam recommends, sight unseen, because
he knows much more about this stuff than I ever will.
d.
Re: Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 8/20/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> I seem to recall that at least initially, we did review on dev@ the
> announcements that we would subsequently post to user@, until they basically
> became boilerplate updates. That's what I'm talking about. Are we talking
> about different things?
Well news includes announcements, and I agree that it makes sense to
review announcements, but it can also be other stuff, like
oh-let-me-see "I'm talking about James at apachecon", or "we have a
new commiter/pmc member".
d.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>
Re: Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> Danny Angus wrote:
>
>> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>> you seem to be implying that the news items would be committed
>>> without review, and then changed if necessary. I'm not
>>> considering that to be a proper practice, even if we can change
>>> them later.
>
>> It may not be "proper practice" in your opinion but it is what we
>> have always done
>
> I seem to recall that at least initially, we did review on dev@ the
> announcements that we would subsequently post to user@, until they basically
> became boilerplate updates. That's what I'm talking about. Are we talking
> about different things?
>
> --- Noel
Disclaimer: I don't know what you did before 2006. Here what we did after:
I personally wrote at least a few mailing list announcements without
"review" (I mostly use a template for them).
I also always updated the news directly (the same apply to Norman,
IIRC). Some times Danny and other helped in fixing my english, otherwise
the bad english is still there.
As I previously said, most time we published a news it was a direct
result of an action item voted (a new release, a website change, a new
sub-project/product). Maybe a good approach would be to include the
announcement text and the news text in the vote content, but maybe this
is an unwanted complication and CTR is preferred (at least by me).
The only news we had with no vote is "Feb/2007 - Feathercast features
James", and I'm very happy Danny added it: this is the kind of news we
are missing and the kind of news I would like to see submitted using
CTR. For release news the current solution already worked perfectly (to
make a release you already have to do most steps and most time you have
anyway to build the maven website for that release).
IMHO this is the de facto JAMES procedure: if you think it is a bad
practice I suggest you writing a proposal (even a short one) so that we
can discuss it (outside from this thread) and if needed change it.
Stefano
RE: Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Danny Angus wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > you seem to be implying that the news items would be committed
> > without review, and then changed if necessary. I'm not
> > considering that to be a proper practice, even if we can change
> > them later.
> It may not be "proper practice" in your opinion but it is what we
> have always done
I seem to recall that at least initially, we did review on dev@ the
announcements that we would subsequently post to user@, until they basically
became boilerplate updates. That's what I'm talking about. Are we talking
about different things?
--- Noel
Re: Use a Blog for news
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
On 8/20/07, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> you seem to be implying that the news items would be committed without
> review, and then changed if necessary. I'm not considering that to be a
> proper practice, even if we can change them later.
It may not be "proper practice" in your opinion but it is what we have
always done, and put in perspective this is James project news, not
stock prices or earthquake warnings.
d.
Re: Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> Stefano,
>> 2) internal mailing list feed. cons: it does not provide after-post
>> editing and we would need a preview post to be approved and one to
>> publish (means few days in delay for each change, at minumum)
>
> And separately, you've said:
>
>>> Simple solution: post the announcement as a draft to the dev@ list
>>> for review.
>
>> This would make the workflow even more complex than now IMHO.
>
> How so? You are talking about a few days delay for each change. I have no
> idea why, except that in your:
I mean that every time we need to publish a news using the mailing list
solution we'll have to discuss a draft on the list, previously. A
discussion means often some days before it is approved and we can send
the final version to the announce list.
If we have editing support, this delay can be skipped.
>> 1) commit to an xml in svn
>> 2) build the m2 site
>> 3) commit the generated site to svn
>> 4) svn up on minotaur
>
> you seem to be implying that the news items would be committed without
> review, and then changed if necessary. I'm not considering that to be a
> proper practice, even if we can change them later.
We did this forever in the last 2 years.
During #1 and #3 people can notice issues and say something, otherwise
we fix it.
As I said I think we are all trusted enough to take this risk: most news
are because of released software or say something we already discussed
and voted upon. I think that CTR is the right workflow in this case.
We are trying to simplify the workflow, not to put in further
complications/moderation levels.
> I have separately asked Sam if he can syndicate directly from SVN content,
> which would merge the blog and SVN based solutions, although I am also
> asking if in the wider feed community, changing news items is a valid
> practice. Even if it isn't, I'm not sure that matters for our purposes.
> Nor do I believe we want to CTR our news items. At the least, commit for
> review, and then move to an approved URL for publication after review.
>
> As I understand Sam, once the one-time setup would be performed, the
> workflow would be:
>
> - commit news item to svn
> - wait for it to appear on the web site
>
> But as Danny said, Sam knows more about this than any of us, so let's see
> what he says.
I thought that avoid the use of svn was one key to make it more agile
for less active committers. As I said I (having everything checked out
and updated and being agile with maven) have no problem with the current
way we publish news, so Danny and other should say if using svn the way
you are proposing accomplish their initial goals.
In this scenario I don't see much difference in saying: let's change
directly the
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/james/site/trunk/www/index.html file and
let's add a cron for the "svn up" on minotaur.
Stefano
RE: Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stefano,
> 1) external blog service. cons: it is not inside the ASF.
AIUI, Sam would provide this as an interim solution until we have one within
the ASF, itself.
> 2) internal mailing list feed. cons: it does not provide after-post
> editing and we would need a preview post to be approved and one to
> publish (means few days in delay for each change, at minumum)
And separately, you've said:
> > Simple solution: post the announcement as a draft to the dev@ list
> > for review.
> This would make the workflow even more complex than now IMHO.
How so? You are talking about a few days delay for each change. I have no
idea why, except that in your:
> 1) commit to an xml in svn
> 2) build the m2 site
> 3) commit the generated site to svn
> 4) svn up on minotaur
you seem to be implying that the news items would be committed without
review, and then changed if necessary. I'm not considering that to be a
proper practice, even if we can change them later.
I have separately asked Sam if he can syndicate directly from SVN content,
which would merge the blog and SVN based solutions, although I am also
asking if in the wider feed community, changing news items is a valid
practice. Even if it isn't, I'm not sure that matters for our purposes.
Nor do I believe we want to CTR our news items. At the least, commit for
review, and then move to an approved URL for publication after review.
As I understand Sam, once the one-time setup would be performed, the
workflow would be:
- commit news item to svn
- wait for it to appear on the web site
But as Danny said, Sam knows more about this than any of us, so let's see
what he says.
--- Noel
Re: Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> We have a suggestion from Sam Ruby for how we could do this today:
>
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>> Things that exist on people.apache.org:/www/james.apache.org/ get
>> rsynched to james.apache.org once an hour.
>>
>> Now, how do we get static html there? Well, a cron job with wget
>> would do the trick. Doesn't matter if externally hosted roller
>> generates the html statically or dynamically, all that matters is
>> that it provides it in response to a get.
>>
>> Alternately, I have some code that can take one or more feeds and
>> produce HTML from it. That code is well documented, but I'm even
>> willing to set it up.
>>
>> Short term, either approach solves the immediate need, modulo some
>> minor propagation delays. Doesn't require anybody to move any
>> mountains. Doesn't put a strain on our infrastructure.
>>
>> Once in place, it can be optimized at our leisure. No "Make it
>> happen!" fire drills required.
>
> As I understand it, the gist of it seems to be that we'd have a generated
> file based on our feed and a template we provide, and we'd pick up the
> current feed content to merge with our static content. Sam will maintain
> the "interesting" side for us until it can move to ASF Infrastructure, and
> the public visible stuff will serve right off our site. I believe that he's
> saying that the template which he will populate could be our main news page,
> minus the news to be inserted into it. Periodically, we'd pick up a
> potentially new copy containing the latest news merged into that page, which
> would then be synched with the live site.
>
> How would that work for everyone?
>
> --- Noel
It is a good idea to generate html from a blog feed (and that's what
Confluence already do this for us automatically if you use it as a blog).
This solution help us removing the "feed reader javascript" from the
home page in Danny solution, but this does not fix the fact that we need
a way to create and keep the feed updated/reviewed.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I see the following way for us to
mantain the feed:
1) external blog service. cons: it is not inside the ASF.
2) internal mailing list feed. cons: it does not provide after-post
editing and we would need a preview post to be approved and one to
publish (means few days in delay for each change, at minumum)
3) ASF managed Roller. cons: we have to wait until this service will be
available
4) ASF managed Confluence space. cons: we have to ask Infra team some
more work for us (is it really so much more work 1 space on a confluence
instance that already manage 20 spaces?)
Have I missed any option?
Stefano
Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
We have a suggestion from Sam Ruby for how we could do this today:
Sam Ruby wrote:
> Things that exist on people.apache.org:/www/james.apache.org/ get
> rsynched to james.apache.org once an hour.
>
> Now, how do we get static html there? Well, a cron job with wget
> would do the trick. Doesn't matter if externally hosted roller
> generates the html statically or dynamically, all that matters is
> that it provides it in response to a get.
>
> Alternately, I have some code that can take one or more feeds and
> produce HTML from it. That code is well documented, but I'm even
> willing to set it up.
>
> Short term, either approach solves the immediate need, modulo some
> minor propagation delays. Doesn't require anybody to move any
> mountains. Doesn't put a strain on our infrastructure.
>
> Once in place, it can be optimized at our leisure. No "Make it
> happen!" fire drills required.
As I understand it, the gist of it seems to be that we'd have a generated
file based on our feed and a template we provide, and we'd pick up the
current feed content to merge with our static content. Sam will maintain
the "interesting" side for us until it can move to ASF Infrastructure, and
the public visible stuff will serve right off our site. I believe that he's
saying that the template which he will populate could be our main news page,
minus the news to be inserted into it. Periodically, we'd pick up a
potentially new copy containing the latest news merged into that page, which
would then be synched with the live site.
How would that work for everyone?
--- Noel
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Stefano Bagnara wrote:
> In [MINA's] homepage they have statically exported also the news, and a
> link to http://feeds.feedburner.com/asf/mina as a feed source so to not
> use cwiki directly. But the original feed is that one.
> If using feedburner scares someone, IMHO, it could be removed at all,
> and we could avoid at all publishing an RSS if this gets much more
> consensus (my impression is that RSS was not a primary goal for people
> that commented this thread).
<<shrug>> As I said, Paul also suggested feedburner, and I just object to
the JavaScript (for end user security reasons). Let me go read your
detailed workflow e-mail.
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> Serge Knystautas wrot:
>
>> my point is:
>
>> code HAS to be at ASF.
>
> +1
>
>> 2. websites pretty much HAVE to be at the ASF
>
> +1
>
>> but we still end up having docs or other things off of ASF stuff,
>> at least temporarily.
>
> Should not happen.
>
>>> Official project content is supposed to be on our infrastructure.
> Projects
>>> that ran over to codehaus to use Confluence weren't looked at with
> favor,
>>> either.
>
>> I really encourage you to view official docs. The websites are an anon
>> svn checkout. There is no documented statement of how the docs got there.
>
> Nor did I suggest otherwise. I am referring to projects that used
> Confluence LIVE as their web site, not sites that use it as an editor, and
> import generated static HTML into SVN. Perhaps you misunderstood me.
>
> --- Noel
Of course, when I proposed to ask for a Confluence Space I linked to
http://cwiki.apache.org/CWIKI/ and the first rule is explained pretty well.
A good example is IMHO the way mina solved this:
http://mina.apache.org/
In their homepage they have statically exported also the news, and a
link to http://feeds.feedburner.com/asf/mina as a feed source so to not
use cwiki directly. But the original feed is that one. If one day ASF
will provide a simple service to publish a cached RSS starting from
confluence they will also remove the "feedburner" helper.
If using feedburner scares someone, IMHO, it could be removed at all,
and we could avoid at all publishing an RSS if this gets much more
consensus (my impression is that RSS was not a primary goal for people
that commented this thread).
Stefano
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Serge Knystautas wrot:
> my point is:
> code HAS to be at ASF.
+1
> 2. websites pretty much HAVE to be at the ASF
+1
> but we still end up having docs or other things off of ASF stuff,
> at least temporarily.
Should not happen.
> > Official project content is supposed to be on our infrastructure.
Projects
> > that ran over to codehaus to use Confluence weren't looked at with
favor,
> > either.
> I really encourage you to view official docs. The websites are an anon
> svn checkout. There is no documented statement of how the docs got there.
Nor did I suggest otherwise. I am referring to projects that used
Confluence LIVE as their web site, not sites that use it as an editor, and
import generated static HTML into SVN. Perhaps you misunderstood me.
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> ASF code has to be hosted here. Website content unofficially has to be
>> hosted here.
>
> Wrong. OFFICIALLY *must* be here.
>
>> Issue tracking is preferred to be hosted at the ASF.
>
> Not true. Much more than "preferred."
I'm happy if you have a better word... my point is
1. code HAS to be at ASF. this is a complete non-starter
2. websites pretty much HAVE to be at the ASF, but we still end up
having docs or other things off of ASF stuff, at least temporarily.
3. issue tracking we try to accomodate and have done yeoman's work, but
it's getting there.
>> A news/blog? Nobody has debated this point and ruled on it the way
>> you claim.
>
> Official project content is supposed to be on our infrastructure. Projects
> that ran over to codehaus to use Confluence weren't looked at with favor,
> either.
I really encourage you to view official docs. The websites are an anon
svn checkout. There is no documented statement of how the docs got there.
http://www.apache.org/dev/project-site.html
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Stefano Bagnara <ap...@bago.org>.
Noel J. Bergman ha scritto:
> Serge Knystautas wrote:
>> You have a knack for saying your opinion as if this is the ASF's as a
>> whole.
>
> No, this is not *my* opinion, Serge.
I strongly agree with Serge that your way to write messages often is
misleading wrt what are YOUR opinions and what are ASF rules. Please
take this into consideration when you write ;-)
Stefano
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Serge Knystautas wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > We're part of a community that has QoS, lifespan and support
requirements.
> > The ASF doesn't host important things on non-ASF infrastructure.
Transient
> > toys, fine.
> You have a knack for saying your opinion as if this is the ASF's as a
> whole.
No, this is not *my* opinion, Serge.
> ASF code has to be hosted here. Website content unofficially has to be
> hosted here.
Wrong. OFFICIALLY *must* be here.
> Issue tracking is preferred to be hosted at the ASF.
Not true. Much more than "preferred."
> Some projects have had issue tracking hosted elsewhere until the ASF
> infrastructure was ready to handle it.
And been reprimanded for going off-site in the first place.
> A news/blog? Nobody has debated this point and ruled on it the way
> you claim.
Official project content is supposed to be on our infrastructure. Projects
that ran over to codehaus to use Confluence weren't looked at with favor,
either.
> [Hosting apps] is a very contentious debate. Some board members are
> writing more strongly worded arguments (on both sides)
I'll leave that discussion where it is, rather than repeat it on non-closed
lists.
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> We're part of a community that has QoS, lifespan and support requirements.
> The ASF doesn't host important things on non-ASF infrastructure. Transient
> toys, fine.
You have a knack for saying your opinion as if this is the ASF's as a
whole. As a member of the accused community, I find that very frustrating.
ASF code has to be hosted here. Website content unofficially has to be
hosted here. Issue tracking is preferred to be hosted at the ASF. Some
projects have had issue tracking hosted elsewhere until the ASF
infrastructure was ready to handle it.
A news/blog? Nobody has debated this point and ruled on it the way you
claim.
> At least for the moment, we are talking about requirements to ensure
> appropriate levels support, and how to enable volunteers, not hiring
> additional staff to run applications.
This is a very contentious debate. Some board members are writing more
strongly worded arguments (on both sides) than anything on the James
list. In any case, the roller solution is a possible future solution,
not something available today or even definite in the foreseeable future.
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Serge Knystautas wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Strongly -1 to an external blog at http://apache-james.blogspot.com/
> > If/when there is a blog service running on the ASF infrastructure
> > with our QOS and ability to maintain it, fine. And there is
> > discussion on that on-going, since we have Roller.
> Can you supply a 'why' for how come you think it is important to
> restrict us to ASF resources in this case?
We're part of a community that has QoS, lifespan and support requirements.
The ASF doesn't host important things on non-ASF infrastructure. Transient
toys, fine.
> You offer contradictory points.
> a) we have to limit ourselves to ASF resources
> b) we only have limited ASF resources
Having Roller available for ASF announcements was suggested by me at
ApacheCon San Diego, but it isn't something that I felt like driving. I
have, however, started to participate with the rest of the Infrastructure
Team on the overall issue of enablement. This takes place, naturally
enough, on the Infrastructure Team's own mailing list.
Coincidentally, this very topic has been the most active discussion for the
Infrastructure team over the past week or so, regarding supporting and
hosting applications for ASF use. I've already suggested that Roller be the
pilot.
At least for the moment, we are talking about requirements to ensure
appropriate levels support, and how to enable volunteers, not hiring
additional staff to run applications.
--- Noel
Re: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by Serge Knystautas <se...@lokitech.com>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Strongly -1 to an external blog at http://apache-james.blogspot.com/
>
> If/when there is a blog service running on the ASF infrastructure with our
> QOS and ability to maintain it, fine. And there is discussion on that
> on-going, since we have Roller.
Can you supply a 'why' for how come you think it is important to
restrict us to ASF resources in this case? You offer contradictory
points...
a) we have to limit ourselves to ASF resources
b) we only have limited ASF resources
--
Serge Knystautas
Lokitech >> software . strategy . design >> http://www.lokitech.com
p. 301.656.5501
e. sergek@lokitech.com
RE: [VOTE] Use a Blog for news
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Strongly -1 to an external blog at http://apache-james.blogspot.com/
If/when there is a blog service running on the ASF infrastructure with our
QOS and ability to maintain it, fine. And there is discussion on that
on-going, since we have Roller.
--- Noel