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Posted to dev@pivot.apache.org by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> on 2010/01/14 02:31:50 UTC
HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Gang,
I was wondering if someone has evaluated to what extent Pivot codebase
is GWT 'compatible'.
My thinking is a little bit like;
HTML5's canvas can more or less be used as Graphics2D, but it would
require a lot of Javascript. GWT, on the other hand, allows Java to be
compiled into Javascript, and by using Pivot's codebase as a starting
point, I shouldn't be all that difficult to leverage these three
technologies to get pixel perfect applications without a Java runtime.
Thoughts?
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 8:54 PM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> You are more than welcome to try backporting Pivot to HTML/JS, but I think it will be a wasted effort. It will be difficult, and there are already plenty of decent AJAX toolkits out there. If you are inspired to contribute to Pivot, I would encourage you to do so within the existing codebase - there are plenty of tickets open for 1.4.1 and beyond. :-)
:-) Fortunately, ASF is all about scratching one's own itches, not
others. I have no immediate use for Pivot in the short/mid term, and
possibly can not use a HTML5/canvas capable either, so I guess I will
just do some experiments and see where that leads. I'll keep you
posted of (if) any progress...
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
You could certainly attempt to do this. But again, the question would be - why? Both Pivot and GWT already allow you to write apps for the browser. The only thing GWT offers that Pivot doesn't is a way to do it without requiring the user to install a plugin. In order to take advantage of HTML 5, the user is going to have to install an entirely new browser version - this is certainly much more of an impact than installing a simple plugin. And, as you noted earlier, IE may never support HTML 5 (fully, anyways). You'll always be battling cross-browser compatibility issues.
As I said in my previous message, we have been down this path before. Pivot started out as an AJAX toolkit. We moved to Java because we became frustrated with all of the issues you just outlined. HTML 5 isn't going to make those issues magically disappear. There are better platforms on which to build a GUI toolkit - that's why Adobe uses Flash/Flex, and why Microsoft created a completely new player to host WPF apps instead of continuing to try to "extend" HTML.
You are more than welcome to try backporting Pivot to HTML/JS, but I think it will be a wasted effort. It will be difficult, and there are already plenty of decent AJAX toolkits out there. If you are inspired to contribute to Pivot, I would encourage you to do so within the existing codebase - there are plenty of tickets open for 1.4.1 and beyond. :-)
G
On Jan 14, 2010, at 4:42 AM, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Christopher Brind
> <ch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Have you tried GWT 2 yet? Does it have the same problems?
>
> Yes I use it. Not much progress in this particular area. Still rather
> HTML centric.
>
>> If so, I can't imagine that it will be long before Google releases a GWT
>> that
>> a) Targets Java 6 (since Java 5 is EOL)
>
> Well, I am not sure. Google doesn't use Java directly, and instead
> leverages internal compilers and what not (possibly Harmony), the jump
> to Java 6 may not be imminent.
>
> I have just tried to look at what the Java 6 deps of Pivot really is;
> 234928 @Overrides + Linear/Radial Gradient + Path2D + a handful more
> smaller stuff + some 'deps' like XML and Scripting. Not terribly scary
> overall. I am continuing to check how much emulation one would need to
> create, which is the real headache...
>
>> b) Supports HTML 5 (they're going to want developers to get as much leverage
>> out of Chrome/Chrome OS as they can)
>
> Well, one could hope so, but somehow I feel it will be a bulky hybrid solution.
>
>> Talking about which, anyone going to Google IO?
>
> I would love to, but not allowed to take any leave for the first 6
> months at the new job...
>
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>
> I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Christopher Brind
<ch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Have you tried GWT 2 yet? Does it have the same problems?
Yes I use it. Not much progress in this particular area. Still rather
HTML centric.
> If so, I can't imagine that it will be long before Google releases a GWT
> that
> a) Targets Java 6 (since Java 5 is EOL)
Well, I am not sure. Google doesn't use Java directly, and instead
leverages internal compilers and what not (possibly Harmony), the jump
to Java 6 may not be imminent.
I have just tried to look at what the Java 6 deps of Pivot really is;
234928 @Overrides + Linear/Radial Gradient + Path2D + a handful more
smaller stuff + some 'deps' like XML and Scripting. Not terribly scary
overall. I am continuing to check how much emulation one would need to
create, which is the real headache...
> b) Supports HTML 5 (they're going to want developers to get as much leverage
> out of Chrome/Chrome OS as they can)
Well, one could hope so, but somehow I feel it will be a bulky hybrid solution.
> Talking about which, anyone going to Google IO?
I would love to, but not allowed to take any leave for the first 6
months at the new job...
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Christopher Brind <ch...@googlemail.com>.
Can't disagree with any of that. ;-)
Have you tried GWT 2 yet? Does it have the same problems?
If so, I can't imagine that it will be long before Google releases a GWT
that
a) Targets Java 6 (since Java 5 is EOL)
b) Supports HTML 5 (they're going to want developers to get as much leverage
out of Chrome/Chrome OS as they can)
Talking about which, anyone going to Google IO?
Cheers,
Chris
2010/1/14 Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Christopher Brind
> <ch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > I don't even get what the original intention is.
> >
> > Are you wanting to supplant GWT's own UI component with the Pivot's? Why
> > would you do that and what is it you think Pivot bring's to GWT's party?
>
> I think working with GWT is awesome, EXCEPT that one still needs to
> fondle around with HTML and CSS for everything. Let's say it is not my
> cup of tea, I like the conventional GUI models, like Swing, SWT,
> Pivot... you name it... Although, GWT provides the 'impression' that
> you are dealing with that, you can't get away from the HTML/CSS aspect
> of the UI, and it drives me nuts.
>
> So, intention;
> 1. Writing Javascript == hopeless cumbersome for a static type addict
> as myself. GWT to rescue.
> 2. Messing with HTML/CSS == tedious and guess work. HTML5's canvas to
> the rescue.
> 3. GWT doesn't (now) leverage with HTML5... Heavily modified Pivot to
> rescue?
>
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>
> I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Christopher Brind
<ch...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I don't even get what the original intention is.
>
> Are you wanting to supplant GWT's own UI component with the Pivot's? Why
> would you do that and what is it you think Pivot bring's to GWT's party?
I think working with GWT is awesome, EXCEPT that one still needs to
fondle around with HTML and CSS for everything. Let's say it is not my
cup of tea, I like the conventional GUI models, like Swing, SWT,
Pivot... you name it... Although, GWT provides the 'impression' that
you are dealing with that, you can't get away from the HTML/CSS aspect
of the UI, and it drives me nuts.
So, intention;
1. Writing Javascript == hopeless cumbersome for a static type addict
as myself. GWT to rescue.
2. Messing with HTML/CSS == tedious and guess work. HTML5's canvas to
the rescue.
3. GWT doesn't (now) leverage with HTML5... Heavily modified Pivot to rescue?
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Christopher Brind <ch...@googlemail.com>.
I don't even get what the original intention is.
Are you wanting to supplant GWT's own UI component with the Pivot's? Why
would you do that and what is it you think Pivot bring's to GWT's party?
Slightly off topic, but kind of related and a little amusing, you can now
run Flash apps in Javascript without Flash Player (so long as they are SWF
version 1)
;-)
http://ajaxian.com/archives/gordon-flash-runtime-implemented-in-javascript
Cheers,
Chris
2010/1/14 Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>
> Sounds like a volunteer :)
>
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> > >> I was wondering if someone has evaluated to what extent Pivot codebase
> > >> is GWT 'compatible'.
> > >
> > > It is not. :-)
> > >
> > >> My thinking is a little bit like;
> > >> HTML5's canvas can more or less be used as Graphics2D, but it would
> > >> require a lot of Javascript. GWT, on the other hand, allows Java to be
> > >> compiled into Javascript, and by using Pivot's codebase as a starting
> > >> point, I shouldn't be all that difficult to leverage these three
> > >> technologies to get pixel perfect applications without a Java runtime.
> > >>
> > >> Thoughts?
> > >
> > > It would require extensive rework. Pivot relies on Java 6 - I believe
> GWT
> > only supports Java 5. Although Java2D and Canvas are superficially
> similar,
> > there is a lot that Java2D can do that Canvas can't. Most importantly,
> even
> > though GWT supports Java 5 *syntax*, it doesn't support all the Java 5
> > libraries and APIs.
> > >
> > > We've been down this road before. It's a dead end. :-)
> >
> > Ok... Fair enough... Let someone else show the way ;-)
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> > --
> > Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> > http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
> >
> > I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> > I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> > I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
> >
>
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Todd Volkert <tv...@gmail.com>.
Sounds like a volunteer :)
On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
> >> I was wondering if someone has evaluated to what extent Pivot codebase
> >> is GWT 'compatible'.
> >
> > It is not. :-)
> >
> >> My thinking is a little bit like;
> >> HTML5's canvas can more or less be used as Graphics2D, but it would
> >> require a lot of Javascript. GWT, on the other hand, allows Java to be
> >> compiled into Javascript, and by using Pivot's codebase as a starting
> >> point, I shouldn't be all that difficult to leverage these three
> >> technologies to get pixel perfect applications without a Java runtime.
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >
> > It would require extensive rework. Pivot relies on Java 6 - I believe GWT
> only supports Java 5. Although Java2D and Canvas are superficially similar,
> there is a lot that Java2D can do that Canvas can't. Most importantly, even
> though GWT supports Java 5 *syntax*, it doesn't support all the Java 5
> libraries and APIs.
> >
> > We've been down this road before. It's a dead end. :-)
>
> Ok... Fair enough... Let someone else show the way ;-)
>
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
> http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
>
> I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com> wrote:
>> I was wondering if someone has evaluated to what extent Pivot codebase
>> is GWT 'compatible'.
>
> It is not. :-)
>
>> My thinking is a little bit like;
>> HTML5's canvas can more or less be used as Graphics2D, but it would
>> require a lot of Javascript. GWT, on the other hand, allows Java to be
>> compiled into Javascript, and by using Pivot's codebase as a starting
>> point, I shouldn't be all that difficult to leverage these three
>> technologies to get pixel perfect applications without a Java runtime.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> It would require extensive rework. Pivot relies on Java 6 - I believe GWT only supports Java 5. Although Java2D and Canvas are superficially similar, there is a lot that Java2D can do that Canvas can't. Most importantly, even though GWT supports Java 5 *syntax*, it doesn't support all the Java 5 libraries and APIs.
>
> We've been down this road before. It's a dead end. :-)
Ok... Fair enough... Let someone else show the way ;-)
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
http://www.qi4j.org - New Energy for Java
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
Re: HTML5, GWT and Pivot
Posted by Greg Brown <gk...@mac.com>.
> I was wondering if someone has evaluated to what extent Pivot codebase
> is GWT 'compatible'.
It is not. :-)
> My thinking is a little bit like;
> HTML5's canvas can more or less be used as Graphics2D, but it would
> require a lot of Javascript. GWT, on the other hand, allows Java to be
> compiled into Javascript, and by using Pivot's codebase as a starting
> point, I shouldn't be all that difficult to leverage these three
> technologies to get pixel perfect applications without a Java runtime.
>
> Thoughts?
It would require extensive rework. Pivot relies on Java 6 - I believe GWT only supports Java 5. Although Java2D and Canvas are superficially similar, there is a lot that Java2D can do that Canvas can't. Most importantly, even though GWT supports Java 5 *syntax*, it doesn't support all the Java 5 libraries and APIs.
We've been down this road before. It's a dead end. :-)