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Posted to modperl@perl.apache.org by Perrin Harkins <pe...@elem.com> on 2003/01/08 22:14:47 UTC
OSCON ideas
As many of you probably know, the call for participation in this year's
Open Source Conference has gone out
(http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm
thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on
what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering:
1) Database Objects in Perl
This talk would focus on the database mapping options for Perl,
including modules like Tangram, Class::DBI, SPOPS, etc. It would
examine the differences in features, ease of use, and performance and
include a set of hand-coded classes using straight DBI for comparison.
2) The Perl Pet Store
This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference
application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE
features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl.
Because of the size of the Pet Store codebase and the complexity of the
environment required to run it (multiple databases, etc.), it may not be
possible to do a good performance benchmark. However comparisons on
other fronts (amount of code, ease of maintenance, etc.) would be made.
What do you guys think?
- Perrin
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Andy Wardley <ab...@andywardley.com>.
On Thu, Jan 09, 2003 at 09:22:35AM -0700, Rob Nagler wrote:
> So how about a panel discussion. I would gladly represent the MVC
> camp. :-) (see http://www.bivio.biz/hm/why-bOP for my position.)
And I would gladly represent the MVC-is-not-the-final-word camp :-)
A
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Rob Nagler <na...@bivio.biz>.
Andy Wardley writes:
> I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal
> crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase "MVC" in relation to
> web development.
So how about a panel discussion. I would gladly represent the MVC
camp. :-) (see http://www.bivio.biz/hm/why-bOP for my position.)
I am thinking about giving a talk about subject matter oriented
programming (SMOP). SMOP separates the programming concerns to allow
you to concentrate on the subject matter with minimal distractions.
If you are familiar with patterns, it's the interpreter pattern taken
to the extreme.
The example would be to compare Sun's Pet Store with our own
http://petshop.bivio.biz. The 3 major SMOP languages in bOP's PetShop
allow you to focus on the subject matter in the models, views, and
controllers without getting bogged down in syntax and unnecessary
repetition.
This is not a SMOP from J2EE's Pet Store[1]:
<tr>
<td class="petstore_form" align="right">
<b>First Name</b>
</td>
<td align="left" colspan="2">
<waf:input cssClass="petstore_form"
name="given_name_a"
type="text"
size="30"
maxlength="30"
validation="validation">
<waf:value><c:out value="${customer.account.contactInfo.givenName}"/></waf:value>
</waf:input>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td class="petstore_form" align="right">
<b>Last Name</b>
</td>
<td align="left" colspan="2">
<waf:input cssClass="petstore_form"
type="text"
name="family_name_a"
size="30"
maxlength="30">
<waf:value><c:out value="${customer.account.contactInfo.familyName}"/></waf:value>
</waf:input>
</td>
</tr>
And, this is a SMOP in bOP[2]:
[
vs_form_field('UserAccountForm.User.first_name'),
], [
vs_form_field('UserAccountForm.User.last_name'),
],
The intent is to demonstrate the power of Perl to distill the essence
of the subject matter.
Interest?
Rob
[1] http://java.sun.com/blueprints/code/index.html#java_pet_store_demo
[2] http://petshop.bivio.biz/src?s=View.account
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
Andy Wardley wrote:
> Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
>
>>I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in
>>a web environment.
>
>
> [...]
>
>
>>Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my
>>proposal.
>
>
> I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal
> crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase "MVC" in relation to
> web development.
>
I like the sound of the proposal also but more because I think that
anything Ask is itching to say is probably going to be interesting.
So I trust that he'll give a good talk.
However, like you, (but in a different way), I am not necessarily so
keen on the topic of MVC.
I think most programmers know what MVC is all about, the word is likely
mentioned in the docs of most template toolkits which probably has led
many people to already read the copious volumes of stuff written on the
web about MVC, and likewise the mailing lists of many of the open source
Perl toolkits out there probably digress into talking about MVC every
3-6 months at some point. :)
In other words, I guess I am not sure how interesting MVC really is (to
me). It feels like knowledge of MVC is everywhere to be found.
So personally, I would not be interested in an MVC talk just for the
sake of imparting knowledge on MVC. But if there was an interesting
novel twist to it then that would be more interesting.
Perhaps rather than asking our opinion on the "title" of these talks, a
1-paragraph abstract would be useful to also include in terms of giving
an idea of the talk.
My limited imagination is kind of turned off on the idea of a talk as an
intro to MVC. But if the abstract sounded more interesting than my
limited imagination is allowing it to based on a generic title/subject
name, then something in that might spark more interest to me.
It also could be that an intro talk isn't something that would spark
interest on the people on this list because... well, those who are the
most vocal here aren't really "intro level" people.
But an intro level talk might interest the silent majority who would pay
to attend the conference and could be interested in that Intro knowledge
from a "mentor" instead of reading it on the web.
So please don't let my naysaying discourage you. I could be completely
wrong.
Later,
Gunther
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
Posted by "Christopher L. Everett" <ce...@cobalt.physemp.com>.
If its not too late to weigh in with ideas:
1) A large chunk how to on doing advanced types of XML processing with perl,
I'm really interested in the idea that I can serve my content to PDA's
(which is the up-and-coming killer platform for my market) and in AppML
(Application Markup Language) for which I can find only dribs and draps
of information (a description of a toy application, an X Schema, and not
much more).
2) Tutorial on persistent objects stored in MySQL, with a view to encoding
business rules.
3) Implementing a toy web application using Apache::PageKit
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer
The Medical Banner Exchange
Physicians Employment on the Internet
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
Posted by Gunther Birznieks <gu...@extropia.com>.
Nigel Hamilton wrote:
> HI,
>
> I'd really like to see talks on:
>
> 1. Web Server Compression - a comparison, between mod_gzip, DynaGzip
> Compress etc, pros / cons, SSL compression, and example configurations
>
> 2. Application Server Options - a comparison between pure-perl,
> Apache/mod_perl, POE, SpeedyCGI etc
>
I have done this a couple years ago with Pure-Perl, mod_perl, SpeedyCGI,
Velocigen at OSCon. I can forward you my notes if you are interested.
But I didn't do it at the level of POE. Comparing POE to mod_perl and
SpeedyCGI is kind of like comparing apples and oranges. It feels more
apt to compare SOAP::Lite, POE, PerlRPC, ... in terms of a comparison of
servers in the same "category".
And yes, I agree... I would like to see a comparison of SOAP::Lite, POE,
PerlRPC, and anything else like them... :)
>
> Nige
>
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
Posted by Nigel Hamilton <ni...@turbo10.com>.
> Let's forgive them, hopefully they know better what they are doing...
>
> ;-)
>
> Fortunately for us, I'm still here (I mean on mod_perl mailing list) to
> answer any of your practical questions concerning Apache::Dynagzip
> implementation.
>
> Regards,
> Slava
HI Slava,
Good to hear you're still here ... it's a bummer they didn't
accept your proposal ... I'm sure others would find it very interesting.
I'm planning on using Apache::Dynagzip soon after our next
release so I'll report back to the list then.
Nige
> Hi Nigel,
>
> OSCON is so far away from the Web Content Compression features. They
> discarded my proposal to talk about Effective Content Delivery over the Web.
> You know, O'Reilly itself delivers uncompressed web content to date (indeed,
> they have mod_gzip and mod_perl installed on Apache):
>
> C05 --> S06 GET / HTTP/1.1
> C05 --> S06 Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg,
> application/msword, */*
> C05 --> S06 Referer:
> http://users.outlook.net/~sbizyaye/cgi-bin/pp-slav.cgi/index.html
> C05 --> S06 Accept-Language: en-us
> C05 --> S06 Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
> C05 --> S06 User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98)
> C05 --> S06 Host: www.perl.com
> C05 --> S06 Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1
> == Body was 0 bytes ==
>
> C05 <-- S06 HTTP/1.1 200 OK
> C05 <-- S06 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:04:44 GMT
> C05 <-- S06 Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) PHP/4.2.1 mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a
> mod_perl/1.27
> C05 <-- S06 P3P: policyref="http://www.oreillynet.com/w3c/p3p.xml",CP="CAO
> DSP COR CURa ADMa DEVa TAIa PSAa PSDa IVAa IVDa CONo OUR DELa PUBi OTRa IND
> PHY ONL UNI PUR COM NAV INT DEM CNT STA PRE"
> C05 <-- S06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> C05 <-- S06 X-Cache: MISS from www.perl.com
> C05 <-- S06 Transfer-Encoding: chunked
> C05 <-- S06 == Incoming Body was 41869 bytes ==
> == real URL = http://www.perl.com/ ==
> == Transmission: text chunked ==
> == Latency = 0.330 seconds, Extra Delay = 1.480 seconds
> == Restored Body was 41731 bytes ==
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nigel Hamilton" <ni...@turbo10.com>
> To: "mod_perl list" <mo...@perl.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:55 AM
> Subject: Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
>
>
> > HI,
> >
> > I'd really like to see talks on:
> >
> > 1. Web Server Compression - a comparison, between mod_gzip, DynaGzip
> > Compress etc, pros / cons, SSL compression, and example configurations
> >
> > 2. Application Server Options - a comparison between pure-perl,
> > Apache/mod_perl, POE, SpeedyCGI etc
> >
> >
> > Nige
> >
> > --
> > Nigel Hamilton
> > Turbo10 Metasearch Engine
> >
> > email: nigel@turbo10.com
> > tel: +44 (0) 207 987 5460
> > fax: +44 (0) 207 987 5468
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> ____
> > http://turbo10.com Search Deeper. Browse Faster.
> >
> >
>
--
Nigel Hamilton
Turbo10 Metasearch Engine
email: nigel@turbo10.com
tel: +44 (0) 207 987 5460
fax: +44 (0) 207 987 5468
________________________________________________________________________________
http://turbo10.com Search Deeper. Browse Faster.
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
Posted by Slava Bizyayev <sb...@outlook.net>.
Hi Nigel,
OSCON is so far away from the Web Content Compression features. They
discarded my proposal to talk about Effective Content Delivery over the Web.
You know, O'Reilly itself delivers uncompressed web content to date (indeed,
they have mod_gzip and mod_perl installed on Apache):
C05 --> S06 GET / HTTP/1.1
C05 --> S06 Accept: image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg,
application/msword, */*
C05 --> S06 Referer:
http://users.outlook.net/~sbizyaye/cgi-bin/pp-slav.cgi/index.html
C05 --> S06 Accept-Language: en-us
C05 --> S06 Accept-Encoding: gzip, deflate
C05 --> S06 User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98)
C05 --> S06 Host: www.perl.com
C05 --> S06 Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1
== Body was 0 bytes ==
C05 <-- S06 HTTP/1.1 200 OK
C05 <-- S06 Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 02:04:44 GMT
C05 <-- S06 Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) PHP/4.2.1 mod_gzip/1.3.19.1a
mod_perl/1.27
C05 <-- S06 P3P: policyref="http://www.oreillynet.com/w3c/p3p.xml",CP="CAO
DSP COR CURa ADMa DEVa TAIa PSAa PSDa IVAa IVDa CONo OUR DELa PUBi OTRa IND
PHY ONL UNI PUR COM NAV INT DEM CNT STA PRE"
C05 <-- S06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
C05 <-- S06 X-Cache: MISS from www.perl.com
C05 <-- S06 Transfer-Encoding: chunked
C05 <-- S06 == Incoming Body was 41869 bytes ==
== real URL = http://www.perl.com/ ==
== Transmission: text chunked ==
== Latency = 0.330 seconds, Extra Delay = 1.480 seconds
== Restored Body was 41731 bytes ==
Let's forgive them, hopefully they know better what they are doing...
;-)
Fortunately for us, I'm still here (I mean on mod_perl mailing list) to
answer any of your practical questions concerning Apache::Dynagzip
implementation.
Regards,
Slava
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Hamilton" <ni...@turbo10.com>
To: "mod_perl list" <mo...@perl.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
> HI,
>
> I'd really like to see talks on:
>
> 1. Web Server Compression - a comparison, between mod_gzip, DynaGzip
> Compress etc, pros / cons, SSL compression, and example configurations
>
> 2. Application Server Options - a comparison between pure-perl,
> Apache/mod_perl, POE, SpeedyCGI etc
>
>
> Nige
>
> --
> Nigel Hamilton
> Turbo10 Metasearch Engine
>
> email: nigel@turbo10.com
> tel: +44 (0) 207 987 5460
> fax: +44 (0) 207 987 5468
>
____________________________________________________________________________
____
> http://turbo10.com Search Deeper. Browse Faster.
>
>
Re: OSCON ideas - more talk ideas
Posted by Nigel Hamilton <ni...@turbo10.com>.
HI,
I'd really like to see talks on:
1. Web Server Compression - a comparison, between mod_gzip, DynaGzip
Compress etc, pros / cons, SSL compression, and example configurations
2. Application Server Options - a comparison between pure-perl,
Apache/mod_perl, POE, SpeedyCGI etc
Nige
--
Nigel Hamilton
Turbo10 Metasearch Engine
email: nigel@turbo10.com
tel: +44 (0) 207 987 5460
fax: +44 (0) 207 987 5468
________________________________________________________________________________
http://turbo10.com Search Deeper. Browse Faster.
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Andy Wardley <ab...@andywardley.com>.
Ask Bjoern Hansen wrote:
> I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in
> a web environment.
[...]
> Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my
> proposal.
I like the sound of it, but I should warn you that I have a personal
crusade against inappropriate use of the phrase "MVC" in relation to
web development.
Here's one of my rants on the subject (take with a pinch of salt) :
http://lists.ourshack.com/pipermail/templates/2002-November/003974.html
I'm considering submitting a proposal for a talk along the lines of
"MVC is not the only design pattern for web development".
I don't plan to shoot MVC down in flames, but rather to illustrate that
there are plenty of other design patterns that are as important, if not
more important than MVC for web development. Hopefully that means that
your proposal/talk and mine should be able to co-exist and complement
each other's point of view.
A
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Dave Rolsky <au...@urth.org>.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Stas Bekman wrote:
> Stas Bekman wrote:
>
> > Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not
> > happen.
>
> For some reason I thought the deadline was Jan 15th, I see that it's Feb
> 15th.
Wow, you scared the crap out of me for a second. I want to submit some
talks but it would have been a scramble to submit some for next week!
-dave
/*=======================
House Absolute Consulting
www.houseabsolute.com
=======================*/
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Stas Bekman wrote:
> Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not
> happen.
For some reason I thought the deadline was Jan 15th, I see that it's Feb
15th.
Submit your proposals here:
http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Stas Bekman <st...@stason.org>.
Nathan Torkington wrote:
> (yes, yes, we all want to see the "How mod_perl 2.0 was finished" but
> I'm not sure that's on the cards :-)
Since the submission deadline is one week that certainly would not
happen. Though an improved "mod_perl 2.0 by Example" tutorial is
definitely a must for those who want to get familiar with most of the
2.0 new features.
__________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman JAm_pH ------> Just Another mod_perl Hacker
http://stason.org/ mod_perl Guide ---> http://perl.apache.org
mailto:stas@stason.org http://use.perl.org http://apacheweek.com
http://modperlbook.org http://apache.org http://ticketmaster.com
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> Ask Bjoern Hansen writes:
> > On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote:
> > Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my
> > proposal.
>
> I've also been asked if anyone has a wishlist of talks they'd like to
> see at the conference. Ideally they'd be "talks I'd pay money to see"
> but I could live with "talks I'd like to see even though they're hard
> to justify to my boss". Feel free to brainstorm here as much as you
> want :-)
I might willing to do 20 mins on "How I ported my registry script to
mod_perl 2.0 (a.k.a. mod_perl 2.0 war stories)".
And no, I don't mean 45 mins. :-)
--
<!-- Matt -->
<:->get a SMart net</:->
Spam trap - do not mail: spam-sig@spamtrap.messagelabs.com
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@oreilly.com>.
Ask Bjoern Hansen writes:
> On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote:
> Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my
> proposal.
I've also been asked if anyone has a wishlist of talks they'd like to
see at the conference. Ideally they'd be "talks I'd pay money to see"
but I could live with "talks I'd like to see even though they're hard
to justify to my boss". Feel free to brainstorm here as much as you
want :-)
Nat
(yes, yes, we all want to see the "How mod_perl 2.0 was finished" but
I'm not sure that's on the cards :-)
Re: OSCON ideas - MVC talk
Posted by Ask Bjoern Hansen <as...@develooper.com>.
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote:
I am planning to submit a proposal for a introduction talk on MVC in
a web environment.
It is mostly talking about why (seperation of concerns etc) it's
(sometimes) nicer than whatever you used to do and how you apply the
goals to the actual implementation. In 90 minutes I think I can
also go briefly into examples of actual models, controllers and
templates. I think it could also be a tutorial[1], but tutorials
bore me so much. So I don't think I'd want to do that.
Like Perrin I would like feedback on the idea before putting in my
proposal.
:-)
- ask
[1] Except then I would have to write many more slides; I already
have a ~70 minutes talk about it with slides, illustrations and all
sorts of things. :-)
--
ask bjoern hansen, http://www.askbjoernhansen.com/ !try; do();
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by Lyle Brooks <br...@deseret.com>.
Quoting Perrin Harkins (perrin@elem.com):
> As many of you probably know, the call for participation in this year's
> Open Source Conference has gone out
> (http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm
> thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on
> what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering:
>
> 1) Database Objects in Perl
>
> This talk would focus on the database mapping options for Perl,
> including modules like Tangram, Class::DBI, SPOPS, etc. It would
> examine the differences in features, ease of use, and performance and
> include a set of hand-coded classes using straight DBI for comparison.
This would be a very interesting talk to attend. Alot of applications
hook in to databases, so the interest coverage should be pretty high.
I've looked at a few of these, and where I struggle is trying to find
what is the "right tool for the job". When is Tangram too much of a
tool and when is straight DBI not enough? What approaches scales
as your needs change.
I'd throw Alzabo in there as well. Something about the Object to
Relational mapping is worthy of inclusion. IIRC, there's also a
brief discussion of this in the Advanced Perl Programming book.
Maybe I just can't get my brain around some of these frameworks,
but I haven't found one that "feels right" when I have to do a
query that isn't just a simple select or join of two tables.
>
> 2) The Perl Pet Store
>
> This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference
> application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE
> features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl.
> Because of the size of the Pet Store codebase and the complexity of the
> environment required to run it (multiple databases, etc.), it may not be
> possible to do a good performance benchmark. However comparisons on
> other fronts (amount of code, ease of maintenance, etc.) would be made.
I like this one too.
>
> What do you guys think?
>
> - Perrin
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by Robert Landrum <rl...@bigrob.ath.cx>.
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 04:14:47PM -0500, Perrin Harkins wrote:
>
> What do you guys think?
>
As an OSCON attendee for the past few years, I've found only a few talks that
really were helpful.
One thing that I would love to see are practical implementations of perl
applications.
For example, we use Mason coupled to a back end API that connects
directly to postgres. The API/Mason stuff works like a MVC. It's all pretty
standard, and works very well.
I'm sure other people have much more interesting examples.
This kind of talk would be directed at people who really grasp all the
concepts of perl already, and are looking for something to spark their
intrest again. Almost like the perl lightning talks, but more focused on
application models.
Just some thoughts...
Rob
Re: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
Posted by Nathan Torkington <gn...@oreilly.com>.
Robert Landrum writes:
> One of the other things I disliked about the last OSCON was the missing
> Perl Conference Proceedings.
They didn't appear because we didn't have time at O'Reilly to do it.
They're prepared in Framemaker, to fit with our style guide, and take
a huge and painful amount of time to do. Jon Orwant did them in 2000,
I did them in 2001, and nobody had time to do them in 2002. I can't
see them in 2003, either, as we're not soliciting refereed papers this
year.
We do make presentation materials available online after the conference
ends, for what that's worth.
Nat
Re: OSCON ideas - missing proceedings
Posted by Robert Landrum <rl...@aol.net>.
One of the other things I disliked about the last OSCON was the missing
Perl Conference Proceedings. I still have very fond memories of reading about
Damians very sick, very twisted, Coy.pm in the 1999 Perl Conference Proceedings.
Did anyone else notice that they weren't made available at the last OSCON?
Any chance we could convince O'Reilly to bring that back?
Rob
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by Dave Rolsky <au...@urth.org>.
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> Perrin Harkins wrote:
>
> >>(http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm
> >>thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on
> >>what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering:
>
> I would be extremely interested in talks covering any work that our Perl
> gurus have done using Bayesian Rules. I am particularly interested in
> the usage of Bayesian rules for search-engines, spam management, log
> analysis, firewalling and encryption - has anybody ever covered any of
> these fields?
Ken Williams has. Ken?
-dave
/*=======================
House Absolute Consulting
www.houseabsolute.com
=======================*/
Re: [mod_perl] Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by Matt Sergeant <ma...@sergeant.org>.
On Fri, 10 Jan 2003, Jonathan M. Hollin wrote:
> Matt Sergeant wrote:
> > I've done a lot on bayes for spam (I had an effective bayesian filter before
> > Paul Graham wrote his article on the subject), but there's not much in it
> > for a full talk. Maybe a lightning talk. Hmm...
>
> That would be great Matt.
>
> Funny how Paul Graham has become so synonymous with Bayesian
> probabilities isn't it? Your work preceeds his, Google "Page Rank"
> apparently uses Bayesians (pre-Graham) and, here in the UK, Autonomy
> (http://www.autonomy.com/) have been doing ground-breaking work for a
> few years now with Bayesians at the core of their technology. Despite
> this, Paul Graham is the first person people think of when you start to
> talk Bayesians, I wonder why?
To be fair to Paul Graham, what he did was put it in a language that was
accessible to geeks. Every single paper or book or whatever I've read on
Bayesian probabilities talks in maths gobledegook (although I'm sure Ken
Williams may disagree ;-). Paul Graham made it easy for the layman to
grok and implement.
A bayes lightning talk might be fun though.
--
<!-- Matt -->
<:->get a SMart net</:->
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Re: [mod_perl] Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
Matt Sergeant wrote:
> I've done a lot on bayes for spam (I had an effective bayesian filter before
> Paul Graham wrote his article on the subject), but there's not much in it
> for a full talk. Maybe a lightning talk. Hmm...
That would be great Matt.
Funny how Paul Graham has become so synonymous with Bayesian
probabilities isn't it? Your work preceeds his, Google "Page Rank"
apparently uses Bayesians (pre-Graham) and, here in the UK, Autonomy
(http://www.autonomy.com/) have been doing ground-breaking work for a
few years now with Bayesians at the core of their technology. Despite
this, Paul Graham is the first person people think of when you start to
talk Bayesians, I wonder why?
--
Jonathan M. Hollin
Technical Director: Digital-Word Co. (http://digital-word.com/)
Co-ordinator: WYPUG (http://wypug.pm.org/)
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
Perrin Harkins wrote:
>>(http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm
>>thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on
>>what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering:
I would be extremely interested in talks covering any work that our Perl
gurus have done using Bayesian Rules. I am particularly interested in
the usage of Bayesian rules for search-engines, spam management, log
analysis, firewalling and encryption - has anybody ever covered any of
these fields?
--
Jonathan M. Hollin
Technical Director: Digital-Word Co. (http://digital-word.com/)
Co-ordinator: WYPUG (http://wypug.pm.org/)
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by Valerio_Valdez Paolini <pa...@students.cs.unibo.it>.
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote:
> (http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os2003/create/e_sess). I'm
> thinking about possible talks to submit and I want a little feedback on
> what people are most interested in. Here are two options I'mconsidering:
>
> 1) Database Objects in Perl
I would like to see this one, and thank you very much for the question :)
Ciao, Valerio
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by "Jonathan M. Hollin" <ne...@digital-word.com>.
Perrin Harkins wrote:
> Several people have brought up benchmarking in reference to the pet
> store. I don't think it will possible to do a good benchmark of this
> application, partly because it's so big (it's a reference app that uses
> lots of functionality just to demonstrate it) and partly because it's
> well known that the J2EE pet store performs badly. It does not
> represent anyone's best efforts to make a high-performance Java store.
An excellent point.
> If people are more concerned with seeing something that would dispel
> myths about Perl performance, rather than a talk on feature portability
> from J2EE to Perl, I could look at implementing something that really
> can be benchmarked like the TPC-W spec or the Doculabs Nile Bookstore
> benchmark. These would be more comparable to existing Java and .NET
> performance tests.
The saliva begins to leak from my lips...
> Personally it would warm my heart to help enable a press release saying
> something like "Perl blows away previous price/performance leaders on
> TPC-W benchmark", but I don't know if hearing about that would be as
> interesting to people as the other things I proposed.
Oh yes, now this is more like it.
> Regardless, I think that posting a good reference implementation of one
> of these specs might get mod_perl some good attention from the
> business-oriented mags that usually focus on Java, and would be a
> valuable marketing tool.
I think I've just had an orgasm. ;-)
Perrin, you've probably gathered by now that IMHO you've struck gold
here. I honestly don't know why this hasn't been done before.
Obviously it would be great for all mod_perl programmers to be able to
direct their PHBs and/or clients to a paper that validates and justifies
the use of mod_perl. I, for one, really hope you pursue this.
--
Jonathan M. Hollin
Technical Director: Digital-Word Co. (http://digital-word.com/)
Co-ordinator: WYPUG (http://wypug.pm.org/)
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by Larry Leszczynski <la...@furph.com>.
Hi Perrin -
> If people are more concerned with seeing something that would dispel
> myths about Perl performance, rather than a talk on feature portability
> from J2EE to Perl,
I agree benchmarks would be a valuable marketing tool, but personally I
prefer the feature portability angle - I don't have much trouble
demonstrating that I can put together high-performance Perl solutions for
the web. What I *do* have trouble with is people assuming you have to go
with Java to get a good J2EE-style app framework.
Larry Leszczynski
larryl@furph.com
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by Perrin Harkins <pe...@elem.com>.
Larry Leszczynski wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote:
>
>
>>2) The Perl Pet Store
>>
>>This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference
>>application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE
>>features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl.
>
>
> I think this could make for an excellent talk.
>
> Along similar lines, I'd be interested in hearing about Perl application
> frameworks such as OpenInteract, progress of P5EE, etc. - any ammunition I
> could use that would help displace the misconception that if an app
> server/framework is required then it must be Java-based.
Several people have brought up benchmarking in reference to the pet
store. I don't think it will possible to do a good benchmark of this
application, partly because it's so big (it's a reference app that uses
lots of functionality just to demonstrate it) and partly because it's
well known that the J2EE pet store performs badly. It does not
represent anyone's best efforts to make a high-performance Java store.
If people are more concerned with seeing something that would dispel
myths about Perl performance, rather than a talk on feature portability
from J2EE to Perl, I could look at implementing something that really
can be benchmarked like the TPC-W spec or the Doculabs Nile Bookstore
benchmark. These would be more comparable to existing Java and .NET
performance tests.
Personally it would warm my heart to help enable a press release saying
something like "Perl blows away previous price/performance leaders on
TPC-W benchmark", but I don't know if hearing about that would be as
interesting to people as the other things I proposed.
Regardless, I think that posting a good reference implementation of one
of these specs might get mod_perl some good attention from the
business-oriented mags that usually focus on Java, and would be a
valuable marketing tool.
- Perrin
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by Larry Leszczynski <la...@furph.com>.
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003, Perrin Harkins wrote:
> 2) The Perl Pet Store
>
> This would be a discussion of porting the J2EE Pet Store reference
> application to Perl. It would cover Perl equivalents for various J2EE
> features, and talk about what was easier or harder to do in Perl.
I think this could make for an excellent talk.
Along similar lines, I'd be interested in hearing about Perl application
frameworks such as OpenInteract, progress of P5EE, etc. - any ammunition I
could use that would help displace the misconception that if an app
server/framework is required then it must be Java-based.
Re: OSCON ideas
Posted by David Wheeler <da...@wheeler.net>.
On Wednesday, January 8, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Perrin Harkins wrote:
> 1) Database Objects in Perl
>
> 2) The Perl Pet Store
>
> What do you guys think?
I say both. :-)
David
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