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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> on 2011/08/23 01:46:47 UTC
users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
Regards,
Dave
On Aug 22, 2011, at 4:09 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
> Am 08/23/2011 12:50 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>
>>> Am 08/22/2011 11:45 PM, schrieb Andy Brown:
>>>> Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>> @all:
>>>>> If there is somewhere else a place that should be updated (and I've
>>>>> write access) please let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marcus
>>>>
>>>> If you have access, maybe on the mailing list page on the OOo site [1]
>>>> or [2]. If not then post a message to the list that your on.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://support.openoffice.org/
>>>
>>> Sorry, for the support area I haven't write access. However, it would be sufficient to delete the "Users Mail List" row and to keep the "General OOo Mail Lists" row as it points already to the modified webpage.
>>
>> We are acting a little quickly.
>
> Really? ;-)
> The ooo-dev@ mailing list is present since months. For the same long time the old MLs have lost a lot of users/posts.
>
>> Shouldn't we have an ooo-users@incubator.apache.org before we delete the Users Mail List on the OOo site?
>
> The data is still there. It's just the collected link list that is no longer present/visible.
>
>>>> [2] http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html
>>>
>>> Is there something else that needs to be changed? Normally it should be fine already. ;-)
>>
>> The old version is carefully hidden here [3]
>>
>> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/www/mail_list.html
>>
>> Until we move the users@ooo list I think that needs to be added back to [2] and then [2] checked into to [3].
>
> But until this all isn't live it won't help to bring over the possible new dev's. I think it's OK to start now to point to the new mailing list(s).
>
>> BTW - Creating the support area is one of the next items in the podling site. [4]
>>
>> [4] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/support/
>
> Marcus
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de>.
Hi Rob,
On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 09:39:02 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> >> >What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
> >> >anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
> >> >subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
> >> >can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
> >
> > And that just sucks.
> >
> >> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
> >> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
> >> existing.
> >
> > Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
> >
>
> I can see the arguments either way. What I don't see is an argument
> for doing it both ways. Dividing the attention of the volunteers
> providing support and the users looking for support will help no one.
I was imagining an approach where both ways are available simultaneously
in a synchronized way. Which your proposal of a next-gen support
platform seems to support, have the same data accessible by various
different means.
Eike
--
PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication.
Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 09:39 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de> wrote:
> > Hi Marcus,
> >
> > On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
> >
> >> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
> >> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
> >
> > That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
> > pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
> > Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
> >
> >> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
> >> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
> >> without.
> >>
> >> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
> >> average user. But forums are.
> >
> > Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
> > handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
> > scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
> > on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
> > a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
> > possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
> >
> >> >What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
> >> >anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
> >> >subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
> >> >can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
> >
> > And that just sucks.
> >
> >> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
> >> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
> >> existing.
> >
> > Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
> >
>
> I can see the arguments either way. What I don't see is an argument
> for doing it both ways. Dividing the attention of the volunteers
> providing support and the users looking for support will help no one.
>
> Do we have any rough stats for the relative traffic on the user list
> versus the support forums? Not now, but when 3.3 first came out. Was
> one getting much more use?
None that are particularly current. In the past myself and Terry have
done a few of these. I can try to dig them up, but they are years old.
I'm digging for those old numbers - so far I found this old analysis
Terry did on oooForum traffic back in 2007.
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User:DrewJensen/why_why
There are some old analysis that I did on mailing list traffic, but they
are gone from my local disc, should be in the mail archive - haven't
found them via search yet...still looking, I'll find them.
Did find this so far
http://ux.openoffice.org/reports/2007/website/gmanetraffic.html
more to come,
//drew
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:29 AM, Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de> wrote:
> Hi Marcus,
>
> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>
>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>
> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>
>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>> without.
>>
>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>> average user. But forums are.
>
> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>
>> >What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>> >anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>> >subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>> >can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>
> And that just sucks.
>
>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>> existing.
>
> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>
I can see the arguments either way. What I don't see is an argument
for doing it both ways. Dividing the attention of the volunteers
providing support and the users looking for support will help no one.
Do we have any rough stats for the relative traffic on the user list
versus the support forums? Not now, but when 3.3 first came out. Was
one getting much more use?
I think Dennis suggested having a "discuss" list for non-support user
threads. That might be an idea. But I think Apache projects calls
this list "general" instead of "discuss".
> Eike
>
> --
> PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication.
> Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>.
Just a couple centavos...
Some companies' firewalls block "social" sites. Aside from obvious
targets like Facebook and Myspace, automatic categorizers like
IronPort will flag sites that say anything about "blogs", "forums",
"community", etc. At one office, Springsource.org was blocked for me
for the longest time, despite being the official repository of Spring
documentation, and Spring being in use at the office.
So going forum exclusively might block some users.
Don
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Rory,
There are those who think it is necessary netiquette to bottom post and also keep the entire thread. (I'm not one of them.)
There is no answer to this.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Rory O'Farrell [mailto:ofarrwrk@iol.ie]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:09
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 15:29:50 +0200
Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de> wrote:
<snip>
> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
<snip>
Ask yourself, if this list is populated by power email users _WHY_ almost nobody snips the quottion when replying and replies get longer and longer.
Forums are much quicker and to the point.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 15:29:50 +0200
Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de> wrote:
<snip>
> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
<snip>
Ask yourself, if this list is populated by power email users _WHY_ almost nobody snips the quottion when replying and replies get longer and longer.
Forums are much quicker and to the point.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@openoffice.org>.
On 23/08/2011 Andy Brown wrote:
> I say that we have to support our users, be it by ML, or forum. I prefer
> mailing list but also realize that others prefer forums. I do use both
> since I want to help users.
Right. I do the same, and established community channels should be
preserved, as well as differences among the various communities: for
example, the Italian community uses a users mailing list with more than
400 subscribers, a forum and a newsgroup (this one is outside the
OpenOffice.org infrastructure). While this solution is technically
redundant, it is the best when one takes into account the inclinations
of people who ask and people who answer.
By the way, we considered automated gateways but in the end it is more
complex than it seems, since the way you communicate depends on the
platform too (it would be odd to receive an e-mail having only a couple
emoticons as body, while this happens often in forums).
> This road is getting old. We have already discussed this, back in June.
> I saw the same old discussion on the LibO list last year.
I absolutely agree.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by RGB ES <rg...@gmail.com>.
2011/8/23 Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>:
>
> This road is getting old. We have already discussed this, back in June. I
> saw the same old discussion on the LibO list last year.
>
Yes, and it was a sad show... People can get very vocal about this
"holy war" between forums and ML. For my part I do not want to see
that silly war again here...
I'd just check, and the Spanish forums have more than 20 new messages
a day with peaks of twice that number. I do not have statistics from
other forums (only admins can see that), but my estimation for the
English forums is more than 200 messages/day. Add the French, Italian
forums... You'll get several *hundreds* of messages each day.
I think that even a master of mail filtering will find such volume of
messages *each day* a daunting prospective...
I regularly participate on the Spanish, English and Italian forums and
do not have problems managing that number of messages.
Cheers
Ricardo
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>
>
> Best in what way? If half of us want pizza for dinner, and the other
> half want sushi, is the best solution to have sushi pizza?
>
> I think doing support via two venues is suboptimal, both for the user
> seeking support and for the person providing support. Would we
> consider splitting ooo-dev into a list and a forum? I don't think so.
>
> phpBB is open source, right? I wonder if there is any way would could
> make it more mail-enabled? Right now it allows users to subscribe to
> a forum or a thread and have new messages go to their email. But it
> doesn't allow responding via email. But I see things like M2F that
> claim to enable phpBB for mail in databases:
>
> http://mail2forum.com/
>
> In other words, we should be really clear whether we merely want
> *multiple interfaces* to support (ML, forum, nntp, etc) or whether we
> really want *multiple repositories* of support discussions. The
> former is good to have. The latter, however, if bad, IMHO.
I say that we have to support our users, be it by ML, or forum. I
prefer mailing list but also realize that others prefer forums. I do
use both since I want to help users.
This road is getting old. We have already discussed this, back in June.
I saw the same old discussion on the LibO list last year.
Lets see if any of the users on the mailing list have anything to say.
I have post a message in both the users@ and discuss@ list letting them
know about this discussion and since it is they that will be effected I
think they should have some input.
Andy
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 08/23/2011 05:46 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>
>
> Best in what way? If half of us want pizza for dinner, and the other
> half want sushi, is the best solution to have sushi pizza?
Read the text. You know it would be pizza *or* sushi.
Or would you ask your questions both by mail *and* forum? I guess not.
> I think doing support via two venues is suboptimal, both for the user
> seeking support and for the person providing support. Would we
Me too.
> consider splitting ooo-dev into a list and a forum? I don't think so.
It's about users and not dev.
Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
<snip>
> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>
Best in what way? If half of us want pizza for dinner, and the other
half want sushi, is the best solution to have sushi pizza?
I think doing support via two venues is suboptimal, both for the user
seeking support and for the person providing support. Would we
consider splitting ooo-dev into a list and a forum? I don't think so.
phpBB is open source, right? I wonder if there is any way would could
make it more mail-enabled? Right now it allows users to subscribe to
a forum or a thread and have new messages go to their email. But it
doesn't allow responding via email. But I see things like M2F that
claim to enable phpBB for mail in databases:
http://mail2forum.com/
In other words, we should be really clear whether we merely want
*multiple interfaces* to support (ML, forum, nntp, etc) or whether we
really want *multiple repositories* of support discussions. The
former is good to have. The latter, however, if bad, IMHO.
> Marcus
>
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re:
[Discussion] dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de>.
Hi Larry,
On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 20:25:45 -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> Messages from unsubscribed posters to the OOo user and discuss list have the header
> "X-Sympa-To: users@openoffice.org"
That and the X-Validation-by header containing the moderator's mail
address who approved the message.
Eike
--
PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication.
Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 08/24/2011 02:10 AM, schrieb Gavin McDonald:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>> Sent: Wednesday, 24 August 2011 12:05 AM
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
>> dev@openoffice.org]
>>
>> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
>>> Hi Marcus,
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>
>>>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>>>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>>>
>>> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has
>>> Reply-To pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling).
>>> Without Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>>
>> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let the
>> posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>
> ew,, no that does not have to happen at all.
>
> the moderator can do a reply-all , choose the -accept and the -allow
> addresses
> then hit send. (of the moderation email).
> From then on, no more moderation of that user using that email address.
>
> No need to repeatedly let the same user in.
Of course it depends on the intelligence of the used ML system. Thanks
for the hint. I didn't know that this is possible in general. ;-)
Marcus
>>>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>>>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>>>> without.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>>>> average user. But forums are.
>>>
>>> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help
>>> because handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your
>>> own scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive
>>> and so on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated
>>> to a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would
>>> also be possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>>
>> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is obvious.
> All
>> is in one place.
>>
>>>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we
>>>>> miss anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person
>>>>> to subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive
>>>>> emails can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to
>> respond.
>>>
>>> And that just sucks.
>>>
>>>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>>>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>>>> existing.
>>>
>>> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>>
>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>
>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>
>> Marcus
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2011-08-23 7:28 PM Andy Brown wrote:
>> The OOo user and discuss list use to have the "Delivered-to" contain
>> "moderator" and it was easy to see when a message was from a person
>> that was not subscribed to the list, the way that Apache does it. When
>> the mail system changed that was removed so the person trying to reply
>> did not know if the OP was subscribed or not. I prefer having the
>> ability to know so that I can CC; the OP. It makes it easier for those
>> trying to help.
> Messages from unsubscribed posters to the OOo user and discuss list have
> the header
> "X-Sympa-To: users@openoffice.org"
>
> This information has been posted to the lists by myself and others more
> than once.
>
Thanks, Larry. I do not know how I missed it.
Andy
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2011-08-23 7:28 PM Andy Brown wrote:
> The OOo user and discuss list use to have the "Delivered-to" contain "moderator" and it was
> easy to see when a message was from a person that was not subscribed to the list, the way
> that Apache does it. When the mail system changed that was removed so the person trying to
> reply did not know if the OP was subscribed or not. I prefer having the ability to know so
> that I can CC; the OP. It makes it easier for those trying to help.
Messages from unsubscribed posters to the OOo user and discuss list have the header
"X-Sympa-To: users@openoffice.org"
This information has been posted to the lists by myself and others more than once.
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Gavin McDonald wrote:
>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let the
>> posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>
> ew,, no that does not have to happen at all.
>
> the moderator can do a reply-all , choose the -accept and the -allow
> addresses
> then hit send. (of the moderation email).
>> From then on, no more moderation of that user using that email address.
>
> No need to repeatedly let the same user in.
>
> Gav...
The OOo user and discuss list use to have the "Delivered-to" contain
"moderator" and it was easy to see when a message was from a person that
was not subscribed to the list, the way that Apache does it. When the
mail system changed that was removed so the person trying to reply did
not know if the OP was subscribed or not. I prefer having the ability
to know so that I can CC; the OP. It makes it easier for those trying
to help.
Andy
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Gavin McDonald <ga...@16degrees.com.au>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 August 2011 12:05 AM
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
> dev@openoffice.org]
>
> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
> > Hi Marcus,
> >
> > On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
> >
> >> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
> >> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
> >
> > That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has
> > Reply-To pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling).
> > Without Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>
> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let the
> posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
ew,, no that does not have to happen at all.
the moderator can do a reply-all , choose the -accept and the -allow
addresses
then hit send. (of the moderation email).
>From then on, no more moderation of that user using that email address.
No need to repeatedly let the same user in.
Gav...
>
> >> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
> >> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
> >> without.
> >>
> >> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
> >> average user. But forums are.
> >
> > Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help
> > because handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your
> > own scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive
> > and so on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated
> > to a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would
> > also be possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>
> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is obvious.
All
> is in one place.
>
> >>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we
> >>> miss anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person
> >>> to subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive
> >>> emails can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to
> respond.
> >
> > And that just sucks.
> >
> >> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
> >> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
> >> existing.
> >
> > Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>
> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>
> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>
> Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Marcus and all,
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
+1
The forum will support 10 languages such as EN(English), ES(Spanish),
FR(French), HU(Hungarian), IT(Italian), JA(Japanese), NL(Dutch),
PL(Polish), VI(Vietnamese) and ZH(Chinese).
The ML should support these languages if those language communities want.
If we decide that users@openoffice.org subscribers should be invited
to ooo-users@incubator.apache.org, and discuss@openoffice.org
subscribers should be invited to ooo-general@incubator.apache.org,
then Japanese community would like to invite users@ja.openoffice.org
subscribers to ooo-ja-users@incubator.apache.org, and to invite
announce@ja.openoffice.org, dev@ja.openoffice.org,
discuss@ja.openoffice.org, documentation@ja.openoffice.org,
marketing@ja.openoffice.org, qa@ja.openoffice.org,
translate@ja.openoffice.org subscribers to
ooo-ja-general@incubator.apache.org.
Thanks,
khirano
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
I work like Andy, I think.
With the ML it is easy to scan the headers of new messages (or threads) and dig deeper on something that I may be interested in or know something about.
With forums, which I use when I have to, the most difficult part is looking around to find out if a matter that I'm concerned about already has a thread somewhere.
I'm willing to support either, and if I can receive e-mails or RSS feeds about forum posts, I will rely on those too.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Brown [mailto:andy@the-martin-byrd.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 15:00
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Jean Weber wrote:
> Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in both places: mailing list and forum, or more or exclusively in one or the other.
>
> Personal observation (not intended as a generalization): my preferences vary with whether I'm a consumer or a provider of support services. As a consumer, I generally prefer a forum, but as a provider I prefer an email list. Perhaps I'm just weird, or set in my ways... :-)
>
> --Jean
Jean, When I can I work on both to provide help. I prefer email and
mailing list.
Andy
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Jean Weber wrote:
> Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in both places: mailing list and forum, or more or exclusively in one or the other.
>
> Personal observation (not intended as a generalization): my preferences vary with whether I'm a consumer or a provider of support services. As a consumer, I generally prefer a forum, but as a provider I prefer an email list. Perhaps I'm just weird, or set in my ways... :-)
>
> --Jean
Jean, When I can I work on both to provide help. I prefer email and
mailing list.
Andy
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 18:08 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in both places: mailing list and forum, or more or exclusively in one or the other.
> >
> > Personal observation (not intended as a generalization): my preferences vary with whether I'm a consumer or a provider of support services. As a consumer, I generally prefer a forum, but as a provider I prefer an email list. Perhaps I'm just weird, or set in my ways... :-)
> >
>
> I think it is like this: a mailing list is best for a long-term
> relationship. It has some a user to subscribe and set up filters and
> folders and such, to optimize it for the mail app. But once done, it
> works smoothly. You have a local, searchable archive, etc.
>
> But if you are a user who has a quick question, but are not savvy
> about mailing lists, then the forum is the simplest solution. It
> allows you to have a few exchanges about your problem and then go away
> and come back 6 months later with another question. But very little
> overhead. Forums are also easier to research your issue in, since they
> are fine grained, e.g., a forum for Calc, another for UNO, etc. If we
> tried to replicate this same capability with mailing lists we'd need
> 10 languages x 15 forums per language = 150 mailing lists.
>
> But my previous point was this is all about differences in access
> methods --
There is actually more to it then that.
There is much that can be done in a forum that can not, easily, be done
with a mailing list.
Then there is the ability with a web interface to offer more then just a
post/reply format - for example.
Come to the forum and go to any modules list and the first you find is a
ink to the current manual...
You can offer custom search functions.
Topics can be flagged for quality of reply.
etc, etc.
//drew
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2011-08-23 4:08 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> I assume this is a natural tenancy and explains
> why OOo has several hundred mailing lists, most of them rarely or
> never used.
Most of those are not support lists and that number has nothing to do with this discussion of
support mailing lists.
Do you want all support questions coming to this list? The people asking for support certainly
won't want to see all the emails on this list that are not related to providing user support.
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:40 PM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in both places: mailing list and forum, or more or exclusively in one or the other.
>
> Personal observation (not intended as a generalization): my preferences vary with whether I'm a consumer or a provider of support services. As a consumer, I generally prefer a forum, but as a provider I prefer an email list. Perhaps I'm just weird, or set in my ways... :-)
>
I think it is like this: a mailing list is best for a long-term
relationship. It has some a user to subscribe and set up filters and
folders and such, to optimize it for the mail app. But once done, it
works smoothly. You have a local, searchable archive, etc.
But if you are a user who has a quick question, but are not savvy
about mailing lists, then the forum is the simplest solution. It
allows you to have a few exchanges about your problem and then go away
and come back 6 months later with another question. But very little
overhead. Forums are also easier to research your issue in, since they
are fine grained, e.g., a forum for Calc, another for UNO, etc. If we
tried to replicate this same capability with mailing lists we'd need
10 languages x 15 forums per language = 150 mailing lists.
But my previous point was this is all about differences in access
methods -- list versus forums. We also have access methods via
archives and nntp for mailing lists. It is reasonable for each of us
to have different preferences for access methods. But if we satisfy
these access method preferences by fragmenting the discussions and the
accumulated knowledge from these discussions, into separate
repositories, then we are making a suboptimal decision that will have
longer term consequences. I'd prefer to think about the knowledge
architecture of what we're doing, and the long term implications. We
could, for example, have a single repository for these discussions, a
mailing list or forum (an I have a slight preference for forums) and
then build multiple access methods onto that single repository. That
single repository then becomes the nucleus on which we can build other
things, like mail-in support, auto tweeting of new threads, etc. But
that argument appears to be losing to the recurrent impulse to make
more mailing lists. I assume this is a natural tenancy and explains
why OOo has several hundred mailing lists, most of them rarely or
never used.
> --Jean
>
> On 24/08/2011, at 6:04, "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>
>> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe that it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where to go to get an answer.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>> +1
>>>
>>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>>
>>> - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>>
>>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>>
>>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> It's an odd situation. In many ways an users@openoffice.org list would appear to remain useful but I think it creates a decision crisis for users to have too many of these.
>
> What I notice about [libreoffice-users] and also [libreoffice] (the dev list) is that many user-level reports have to do with (1) interoperability between a version of ODF-based software and another format (Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel being prominent). The other kind of interoperability is among versions of ODF-based software where an older version works differently (often better) than a newer one. These are also often related to interoperability with software having different native formats.
>
That's the nature of support almost anywhere. Very little software
operates in a vacuum. You are part of a stack and have interactions
with the OS, with other apps, with peripherals, all from other
vendors. The nice thing is, with commercial products at least,
companies would work together to support their mutual customers. In
other words, rather than just passing the buck and bouncing the
customer around, the support engineer from company A would get on the
phone with the support engineer from company B and compare notes. At
least that is how we did back when I worked in support, many years
ago.
> Sometimes, the inter-version comparisons are between an OO.o release and a subsequent LibreOffice release.
>
> There are also general questions and tips that work for any recent OpenOffice 3.x and LibreOffice 3.x releases and their documentation.
>
> However, I don't think we can expect users to sort out which is the right list for these: LibreOffice-specific, OpenOffice-legacy-specific, Apache OpenOffice (nothing to talk about yet), or some common OpenOffice shared space.
>
> So, realistically, I think it will be super-users and their cousins, including developers and documentation authors, who will notice cross-over cases and perhaps guide users to an appropriate place while also providing useful answers.
>
One thing that is different in community led support is the
motivations. In the commercial space, support engineers are generally
rated on productivity and/or customer satisfaction. Depending on the
ratio, this can lead to passing the buck or not.
With community volunteers, the motivations are not going to all be the
same. For example, there is no FIFO discpline for answering questions
on the current user list. Some questions are never answered. It is
based on the interest of those answering questions. This is natural,
in a sense, but doesn't necessarily meet user expectations. That is
one reason why I think we need to put an emphasis on avoiding support
questions..
> For bug reports, I think it is always going to be with respect to a release that an user is operating with, and sharing what is a common-mode problem across forks/derivatives and their releases is going to depend on developers noticing and talking to each other. We might not be able to share patches but we can definitely attempt to share issues that we may have in common.
>
We can share patches in one direction, AOOo -> LO. Whether the
patches are easily integrable will depend on the degree of code
divergence. But shared patches are the lowest form of reuse. I'm
hoping we can move it up component-level reuse at some point.
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:giffunip@tutopia.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 18:12
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
>
> Well ..
>
> An important difference, I think, is that the forum will serve for all
> openoffice variants (including LibreOffice). The mailinlist can only
> attend issues related to Apache OpenOffice since it"s the codebase we
> maintain and support.
>
> Pedro.
>
> On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:00:01 +0200, "Marcus (OOo)"
> <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>> Yes, it seems a bit difficult to decide what is the best for all or
>> at least the majority of our users.
>>
>> Maybe someone has some more agruements about MLs vs. forums.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>
>
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
It's an odd situation. In many ways an users@openoffice.org list would appear to remain useful but I think it creates a decision crisis for users to have too many of these.
What I notice about [libreoffice-users] and also [libreoffice] (the dev list) is that many user-level reports have to do with (1) interoperability between a version of ODF-based software and another format (Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel being prominent). The other kind of interoperability is among versions of ODF-based software where an older version works differently (often better) than a newer one. These are also often related to interoperability with software having different native formats.
Sometimes, the inter-version comparisons are between an OO.o release and a subsequent LibreOffice release.
There are also general questions and tips that work for any recent OpenOffice 3.x and LibreOffice 3.x releases and their documentation.
However, I don't think we can expect users to sort out which is the right list for these: LibreOffice-specific, OpenOffice-legacy-specific, Apache OpenOffice (nothing to talk about yet), or some common OpenOffice shared space.
So, realistically, I think it will be super-users and their cousins, including developers and documentation authors, who will notice cross-over cases and perhaps guide users to an appropriate place while also providing useful answers.
For bug reports, I think it is always going to be with respect to a release that an user is operating with, and sharing what is a common-mode problem across forks/derivatives and their releases is going to depend on developers noticing and talking to each other. We might not be able to share patches but we can definitely attempt to share issues that we may have in common.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Pedro Giffuni [mailto:giffunip@tutopia.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 18:12
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Well ..
An important difference, I think, is that the forum will serve for all
openoffice variants (including LibreOffice). The mailinlist can only
attend issues related to Apache OpenOffice since it"s the codebase we
maintain and support.
Pedro.
On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:00:01 +0200, "Marcus (OOo)"
<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> Yes, it seems a bit difficult to decide what is the best for all or
> at least the majority of our users.
>
> Maybe someone has some more agruements about MLs vs. forums.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Pedro Giffuni <gi...@tutopia.com>.
Well ..
An important difference, I think, is that the forum will serve for all
openoffice variants (including LibreOffice). The mailinlist can only
attend issues related to Apache OpenOffice since it"s the codebase we
maintain and support.
Pedro.
On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:00:01 +0200, "Marcus (OOo)"
<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> Yes, it seems a bit difficult to decide what is the best for all or
> at least the majority of our users.
>
> Maybe someone has some more agruements about MLs vs. forums.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Yes, it seems a bit difficult to decide what is the best for all or at
least the majority of our users.
Maybe someone has some more agruements about MLs vs. forums.
Marcus
Am 08/23/2011 11:40 PM, schrieb Jean Weber:
> Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in both places: mailing list and forum, or more or exclusively in one or the other.
>
> Personal observation (not intended as a generalization): my preferences vary with whether I'm a consumer or a provider of support services. As a consumer, I generally prefer a forum, but as a provider I prefer an email list. Perhaps I'm just weird, or set in my ways... :-)
>
> --Jean
>
> On 24/08/2011, at 6:04, "Marcus (OOo)"<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>
>> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe that it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where to go to get an answer.
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>> +1
>>>
>>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>>
>>> - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>>
>>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>>
>>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>>
>>> Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 07:40 +1000, Jean Weber wrote:
> Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in both places:
My observation.
It's minimal. Most responders are in one of the other, but not both.
//drew
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by RGB ES <rg...@gmail.com>.
2011/8/23 Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>:
> Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in both places: mailing list and forum, or more or exclusively in one or the other.
>
> Personal observation (not intended as a generalization): my preferences vary with whether I'm a consumer or a provider of support services. As a consumer, I generally prefer a forum, but as a provider I prefer an email list. Perhaps I'm just weird, or set in my ways... :-)
>
> --Jean
>
I prefer Forums. Not all problems can be solved with one answer and
when feedback is needed forums (at least for me) are better.
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi all,
We don't have brand new OOo builds, AOOo, yet.
:) We don't have any AOOo users yet.
After the release of AOOo we will get traditional users and new users
from many parts of the world.
Do we know how many AOOo users we get, what kind of users they are,
what they think and how they act?
No one knows.
So we have to be prepared.
Let us set up all support media we can have, such as mail lists,
forums and next-gens, and wait for AOOo users.
:)
It is easy to set up a Japanese mail list.
If it is set up, Japanese AOOo users come in and they just start
posting their questions in Japanese.
Japanese AOOo users are lucky because there is the Japanese forum
which will support Japanese AOOo users.
http://user.services.openoffice.org/
But if Greek AOOo users want help in the forum, some Greek volunteers
have to localize the forum, it takes time.
http://projects.openoffice.org/native-lang.html
And I would like to start localize the next-gens for future Japanese AOOo users.
Which one of the next-gens will we use mainly?
Can someone tell me how to localize it?
Thanks,
khirano
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Drew and all,
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 6:25 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
>> http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=openoffice
>> http://ask.debian.net/
>> http://libreoffice.shapado.com/
>
> I see. These sites are the next-gens! Looks great.
>
> Is it easy to localize them?
>
> Thanks,
> khirano
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Drew and all,
Thanks.
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 6:25 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=openoffice
> http://ask.debian.net/
> http://libreoffice.shapado.com/
I see. These sites are the next-gens! Looks great.
Is it easy to localize them?
Thanks,
khirano
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
My exploration of stackoverflow was because it was offered as an example of what might serve for "User support: beyond forums or lists." I have learned its limitations (and I continue to monitor it for openoffice.org questions).
It is clear to me that the StackExchange sites do not qualify as something that can replace lists. As you point out, it can't replace forums either, although I have seen all of the things you point at accomplished on stackoverflow. It takes more work.
I don't doubt that we will continue to provide Forums. I have no objection to that. I still think that there should be at least ooo-user@a.i.o, and maybe ooo-general@a.i.o (or whatever it is called).
I find all of this preaching for forums to be odd, since the provision of forums is not in doubt.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: RGB ES [mailto:rgb.mldc@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 00:39
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
I'll not quote anyone here because this is a general consideration... ;)
On the discussion about which is the best way to help users, several
times appeared a mention to Q/A sites like stackoverflow or similar.
There is, IMHO, a big problem with those sites: they help to provide
short and definitive answers, /but not to maintain discussions/...
Those sites are useful when a simple question can be solved by a
simple answer, but on complex packages like an office suite most of
the time you need interaction between the person who ask the question
and the person with the ability to answer that question. And this
interaction is not simply because the questioner was not clear enough,
but mainly because the answer needs to be "tailored" to be useful.
Q/A sites help to obtain short answers, but short answer only seldom
are useful when you use a package like OOo.
I think that because of it ability to cross referencing, quoting,
attaching files, search capabilities, /discussing/... forums still are
the best solution.
Just my 2¢
Cheers
Ricardo
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by RGB ES <rg...@gmail.com>.
I'll not quote anyone here because this is a general consideration... ;)
On the discussion about which is the best way to help users, several
times appeared a mention to Q/A sites like stackoverflow or similar.
There is, IMHO, a big problem with those sites: they help to provide
short and definitive answers, /but not to maintain discussions/...
Those sites are useful when a simple question can be solved by a
simple answer, but on complex packages like an office suite most of
the time you need interaction between the person who ask the question
and the person with the ability to answer that question. And this
interaction is not simply because the questioner was not clear enough,
but mainly because the answer needs to be "tailored" to be useful.
Q/A sites help to obtain short answers, but short answer only seldom
are useful when you use a package like OOo.
I think that because of it ability to cross referencing, quoting,
attaching files, search capabilities, /discussing/... forums still are
the best solution.
Just my 2¢
Cheers
Ricardo
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
My first answer to an OpenOffice.org question that I then tracked has been marked as good by the questioner.
More things about how the StackExchange sites do this.
1. The RSS feed is working but I find that the subscriptions into Internet Explorer and Outlook are not very nice and not too useful. So I switched to my feed reader. That means I must remember to open my feed reader and synchronize from time to time. The subscription will now also show in Google Reader, which is a hoot and probably irrelevant. The feed reader does the right kind of highlighting when there is a new post on the same question, etc.
2. The RSS feed for a single question handles all posts to the question but not comments on those posts. So I did not know, for example, that the author of the question confirmed my answer and commented on my answer accordingly (as well as checking it off as an answer that worked). With the feedreader, I will still have to poll from time to time to see if there are comments and status changes that are not reflected in the RSS.
A mixed blessing so far.
For the record, here's the question and only answer. The RSS feed is on the bottom right corner of the page (this should amuse Eike and Rob especially, since it is about a feature in OpenFormula that I despise):
<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7188541/open-video-file-by-clicking-on-cell>
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 13:15
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
I found a way to track individual Stack Exchange questions without having to poll them myself to detect follow-ups and other answers.
It is a bit clumsy. But it promises to be easy, and it is particularly easy to stop tracking a question.
Every question (topic) on StackExchange has its own RSS feed.
I'm not quite sure how to manage per-question feeds, but I will give that a try. It will definitely save me having to keep going to the question and checking on follow-ups and other answers.
I'm going to see if this works better in the Windows "Common Feed List" so I can get updates in Outlook (not where I normally manage feeds).
- Dennis
ABOUT STACKEXCHANGE KARMA
It is interesting that there might be a karma difference. Of course, it would be pretty frustrating to not have access to a valuable tool until having run the gauntlet for getting the karma to use it. Being able to follow a post does not seem like one of those things.
I checked my reputation on StackOverflow. I have all privileges but 8:
- trusted user
- protect questions
- access to moderator tools
- approve tag wiki edits
- cast close and reopen votes
- create tag synonyms
- edit questions and answers (not my own)
- create tags
I have the other 17.
The moderator tools do not have any additional powers related to tracking an individual post.
Trusted users do not have any additional powers related to tracking an individual post.
-----Original Message-----
From: rabastus@gmail.com [mailto:rabastus@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:27
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> This should be at the "User support: beyond forums or lists" thread but I hesitate to confuse other ways of reading this list that don't like title changes (and I am using reply to have previous material attached - I might try forward instead on some occasion).
>
> I have been running a filter on StackExchange sites long enough to have some hits with new posts that use the openoffice.org tag.
>
> Experience:
>
> I can get from the filter notice to the StackExchange post by direct link. I can post an answer or, more likely, a request for details/clarification once there.
>
> However, there is no way to track an individual post. So to see if there has been any activity on the post once it is non-knew, I have to manually go look. I can do that by saving the original notice in a folder of ones to review at some point. (There is a list of answers I've posted in my profile, but it is not organized for use in this manner.)
>
> Not very appealing in attempting to maximize my cycles available for actually providing forum support.
>
One thing to note about Stack Exchange is that more capabilities are
made available to you based on how many points you've earned. So it
is tricky to tell, by casual review, what features might be available
to a deeply-involved moderator.
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 13:15
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
>
> Drew,
>
> I didn't realize the imbalance between using the tag and mentioning without the tag was that lop-sided.
>
> By the way, there is also
> <http://superuser.com/search?q=openoffice.org>.
>
> Things that can be done with StackExchange sites already include having an RSS feed of posts and also email subscriptions (though I remember shutting that off once I was overwhelmed). Apparently one can subscribe by tag.
>
> I did that. I set up a query that uses the openoffice.org tag (I was not brave enough to use the search term instead but I did specify all sites) and I will receive e-mail notifications.
>
> We'll see if those make it easy to go to the question, review, and respond.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: drew [mailto:drew@baseanswers.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:51
> To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
>
> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 08:01 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> It looks to me as if we need to be following the openoffice.org tag on StackOverflow. They have over 1200 items, and there is an openoffice.org tag/category although it is not always used.
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Sadly, not so - the link I showed was a simple string search for
> OpenOffice and it returns a good number of items that nearly mention the
> application but are not about it.
>
> Items tagged as OpenOffice-x numbers (over a 2 year span)
> OpenOffice.org 326 total
> openoffice-calc 84 total
> openoffice-wrier 51 total
> openoffice-impress 12 total
> openoffice-base 2 total
> openoffice-basic 0 total
> open-office 26 total
>
> <snip>
>
> //drew
>
>
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
I found a way to track individual Stack Exchange questions without having to poll them myself to detect follow-ups and other answers.
It is a bit clumsy. But it promises to be easy, and it is particularly easy to stop tracking a question.
Every question (topic) on StackExchange has its own RSS feed.
I'm not quite sure how to manage per-question feeds, but I will give that a try. It will definitely save me having to keep going to the question and checking on follow-ups and other answers.
I'm going to see if this works better in the Windows "Common Feed List" so I can get updates in Outlook (not where I normally manage feeds).
- Dennis
ABOUT STACKEXCHANGE KARMA
It is interesting that there might be a karma difference. Of course, it would be pretty frustrating to not have access to a valuable tool until having run the gauntlet for getting the karma to use it. Being able to follow a post does not seem like one of those things.
I checked my reputation on StackOverflow. I have all privileges but 8:
- trusted user
- protect questions
- access to moderator tools
- approve tag wiki edits
- cast close and reopen votes
- create tag synonyms
- edit questions and answers (not my own)
- create tags
I have the other 17.
The moderator tools do not have any additional powers related to tracking an individual post.
Trusted users do not have any additional powers related to tracking an individual post.
-----Original Message-----
From: rabastus@gmail.com [mailto:rabastus@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Rob Weir
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 11:27
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> This should be at the "User support: beyond forums or lists" thread but I hesitate to confuse other ways of reading this list that don't like title changes (and I am using reply to have previous material attached - I might try forward instead on some occasion).
>
> I have been running a filter on StackExchange sites long enough to have some hits with new posts that use the openoffice.org tag.
>
> Experience:
>
> I can get from the filter notice to the StackExchange post by direct link. I can post an answer or, more likely, a request for details/clarification once there.
>
> However, there is no way to track an individual post. So to see if there has been any activity on the post once it is non-knew, I have to manually go look. I can do that by saving the original notice in a folder of ones to review at some point. (There is a list of answers I've posted in my profile, but it is not organized for use in this manner.)
>
> Not very appealing in attempting to maximize my cycles available for actually providing forum support.
>
One thing to note about Stack Exchange is that more capabilities are
made available to you based on how many points you've earned. So it
is tricky to tell, by casual review, what features might be available
to a deeply-involved moderator.
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 13:15
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
>
> Drew,
>
> I didn't realize the imbalance between using the tag and mentioning without the tag was that lop-sided.
>
> By the way, there is also
> <http://superuser.com/search?q=openoffice.org>.
>
> Things that can be done with StackExchange sites already include having an RSS feed of posts and also email subscriptions (though I remember shutting that off once I was overwhelmed). Apparently one can subscribe by tag.
>
> I did that. I set up a query that uses the openoffice.org tag (I was not brave enough to use the search term instead but I did specify all sites) and I will receive e-mail notifications.
>
> We'll see if those make it easy to go to the question, review, and respond.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: drew [mailto:drew@baseanswers.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:51
> To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
>
> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 08:01 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> It looks to me as if we need to be following the openoffice.org tag on StackOverflow. They have over 1200 items, and there is an openoffice.org tag/category although it is not always used.
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Sadly, not so - the link I showed was a simple string search for
> OpenOffice and it returns a good number of items that nearly mention the
> application but are not about it.
>
> Items tagged as OpenOffice-x numbers (over a 2 year span)
> OpenOffice.org 326 total
> openoffice-calc 84 total
> openoffice-wrier 51 total
> openoffice-impress 12 total
> openoffice-base 2 total
> openoffice-basic 0 total
> open-office 26 total
>
> <snip>
>
> //drew
>
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton
<de...@acm.org> wrote:
> This should be at the "User support: beyond forums or lists" thread but I hesitate to confuse other ways of reading this list that don't like title changes (and I am using reply to have previous material attached - I might try forward instead on some occasion).
>
> I have been running a filter on StackExchange sites long enough to have some hits with new posts that use the openoffice.org tag.
>
> Experience:
>
> I can get from the filter notice to the StackExchange post by direct link. I can post an answer or, more likely, a request for details/clarification once there.
>
> However, there is no way to track an individual post. So to see if there has been any activity on the post once it is non-knew, I have to manually go look. I can do that by saving the original notice in a folder of ones to review at some point. (There is a list of answers I've posted in my profile, but it is not organized for use in this manner.)
>
> Not very appealing in attempting to maximize my cycles available for actually providing forum support.
>
One thing to note about Stack Exchange is that more capabilities are
made available to you based on how many points you've earned. So it
is tricky to tell, by casual review, what features might be available
to a deeply-involved moderator.
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 13:15
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
>
> Drew,
>
> I didn't realize the imbalance between using the tag and mentioning without the tag was that lop-sided.
>
> By the way, there is also
> <http://superuser.com/search?q=openoffice.org>.
>
> Things that can be done with StackExchange sites already include having an RSS feed of posts and also email subscriptions (though I remember shutting that off once I was overwhelmed). Apparently one can subscribe by tag.
>
> I did that. I set up a query that uses the openoffice.org tag (I was not brave enough to use the search term instead but I did specify all sites) and I will receive e-mail notifications.
>
> We'll see if those make it easy to go to the question, review, and respond.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: drew [mailto:drew@baseanswers.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:51
> To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
> Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
>
> On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 08:01 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
>> It looks to me as if we need to be following the openoffice.org tag on StackOverflow. They have over 1200 items, and there is an openoffice.org tag/category although it is not always used.
>
> Hi Dennis,
>
> Sadly, not so - the link I showed was a simple string search for
> OpenOffice and it returns a good number of items that nearly mention the
> application but are not about it.
>
> Items tagged as OpenOffice-x numbers (over a 2 year span)
> OpenOffice.org 326 total
> openoffice-calc 84 total
> openoffice-wrier 51 total
> openoffice-impress 12 total
> openoffice-base 2 total
> openoffice-basic 0 total
> open-office 26 total
>
> <snip>
>
> //drew
>
>
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
This should be at the "User support: beyond forums or lists" thread but I hesitate to confuse other ways of reading this list that don't like title changes (and I am using reply to have previous material attached - I might try forward instead on some occasion).
I have been running a filter on StackExchange sites long enough to have some hits with new posts that use the openoffice.org tag.
Experience:
I can get from the filter notice to the StackExchange post by direct link. I can post an answer or, more likely, a request for details/clarification once there.
However, there is no way to track an individual post. So to see if there has been any activity on the post once it is non-knew, I have to manually go look. I can do that by saving the original notice in a folder of ones to review at some point. (There is a list of answers I've posted in my profile, but it is not organized for use in this manner.)
Not very appealing in attempting to maximize my cycles available for actually providing forum support.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 13:15
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Drew,
I didn't realize the imbalance between using the tag and mentioning without the tag was that lop-sided.
By the way, there is also
<http://superuser.com/search?q=openoffice.org>.
Things that can be done with StackExchange sites already include having an RSS feed of posts and also email subscriptions (though I remember shutting that off once I was overwhelmed). Apparently one can subscribe by tag.
I did that. I set up a query that uses the openoffice.org tag (I was not brave enough to use the search term instead but I did specify all sites) and I will receive e-mail notifications.
We'll see if those make it easy to go to the question, review, and respond.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: drew [mailto:drew@baseanswers.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:51
To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 08:01 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> It looks to me as if we need to be following the openoffice.org tag on StackOverflow. They have over 1200 items, and there is an openoffice.org tag/category although it is not always used.
Hi Dennis,
Sadly, not so - the link I showed was a simple string search for
OpenOffice and it returns a good number of items that nearly mention the
application but are not about it.
Items tagged as OpenOffice-x numbers (over a 2 year span)
OpenOffice.org 326 total
openoffice-calc 84 total
openoffice-wrier 51 total
openoffice-impress 12 total
openoffice-base 2 total
openoffice-basic 0 total
open-office 26 total
<snip>
//drew
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
Drew,
I didn't realize the imbalance between using the tag and mentioning without the tag was that lop-sided.
By the way, there is also
<http://superuser.com/search?q=openoffice.org>.
Things that can be done with StackExchange sites already include having an RSS feed of posts and also email subscriptions (though I remember shutting that off once I was overwhelmed). Apparently one can subscribe by tag.
I did that. I set up a query that uses the openoffice.org tag (I was not brave enough to use the search term instead but I did specify all sites) and I will receive e-mail notifications.
We'll see if those make it easy to go to the question, review, and respond.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: drew [mailto:drew@baseanswers.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:51
To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org
Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 08:01 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> It looks to me as if we need to be following the openoffice.org tag on StackOverflow. They have over 1200 items, and there is an openoffice.org tag/category although it is not always used.
Hi Dennis,
Sadly, not so - the link I showed was a simple string search for
OpenOffice and it returns a good number of items that nearly mention the
application but are not about it.
Items tagged as OpenOffice-x numbers (over a 2 year span)
OpenOffice.org 326 total
openoffice-calc 84 total
openoffice-wrier 51 total
openoffice-impress 12 total
openoffice-base 2 total
openoffice-basic 0 total
open-office 26 total
<snip>
//drew
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 08:01 -0700, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote:
> It looks to me as if we need to be following the openoffice.org tag on StackOverflow. They have over 1200 items, and there is an openoffice.org tag/category although it is not always used.
Hi Dennis,
Sadly, not so - the link I showed was a simple string search for
OpenOffice and it returns a good number of items that nearly mention the
application but are not about it.
Items tagged as OpenOffice-x numbers (over a 2 year span)
OpenOffice.org 326 total
openoffice-calc 84 total
openoffice-wrier 51 total
openoffice-impress 12 total
openoffice-base 2 total
openoffice-basic 0 total
open-office 26 total
<snip>
//drew
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
It looks to me as if we need to be following the openoffice.org tag on StackOverflow. They have over 1200 items, and there is an openoffice.org tag/category although it is not always used.
Of course, if for some reason we care whether the platform source is available, there are these to explore: <http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/2267/stack-overflow-clones>.
Sounds like a different incubator if you want one with ALv2.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: drew [mailto:drew@baseanswers.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 02:26
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 18:00 +0900, Kazunari Hirano wrote:
> Hi Mathias and all,
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net> wrote:
> > Besides that: IMHO we should discuss Rob's proposal to think about
> > next-gen support media (I really like the "stack overflow" web site and
> > similar sites). Rating and credit systems are a wonderful way to
> > increase the value of support media as a support database.
>
> Sounds good. I would like to see it.
> Do you know an instance of such next-gen support media or the stack
> overflow web site?
http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=openoffice
A different application, similar approach and FOSS (GNU Affero license)
http://ask.debian.net/
and
http://libreoffice.shapado.com/
//drew
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Wed, 2011-08-24 at 18:00 +0900, Kazunari Hirano wrote:
> Hi Mathias and all,
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net> wrote:
> > Besides that: IMHO we should discuss Rob's proposal to think about
> > next-gen support media (I really like the "stack overflow" web site and
> > similar sites). Rating and credit systems are a wonderful way to
> > increase the value of support media as a support database.
>
> Sounds good. I would like to see it.
> Do you know an instance of such next-gen support media or the stack
> overflow web site?
http://stackoverflow.com/search?q=openoffice
A different application, similar approach and FOSS (GNU Affero license)
http://ask.debian.net/
and
http://libreoffice.shapado.com/
//drew
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Mathias and all,
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Besides that: IMHO we should discuss Rob's proposal to think about
> next-gen support media (I really like the "stack overflow" web site and
> similar sites). Rating and credit systems are a wonderful way to
> increase the value of support media as a support database.
Sounds good. I would like to see it.
Do you know an instance of such next-gen support media or the stack
overflow web site?
Thanks,
khirano
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net>.
Am 23.08.2011 23:40, schrieb Jean Weber:
> Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in
> both places: mailing list and forum, or more or exclusively in one or
> the other.
>
> Personal observation (not intended as a generalization): my
> preferences vary with whether I'm a consumer or a provider of support
> services. As a consumer, I generally prefer a forum, but as a
> provider I prefer an email list. Perhaps I'm just weird, or set in my
> ways... :-)
No, I think that you are just representative for the situation we are
facing: deep in our hearts we know that the average user of
OpenOffice.org would prefer forums for support, but as most of us are
quite "old style", we prefer mail for our own communication (I also do).
But IMHO we should acknowledge the fact that the worm should taste good
for the fish, not for the fisherman.
My personal take on that: if users obviously prefer forums for support
to a large degree (denying that IMHO is self-deception), we should
account for that. OTOH discouraging power users from participating in
the support is also not what we want, so we should analyse what stands
in the way of people who actually want to give support in web forums.
>From my own perspective there is one major PITA in web forums - it's
their unreliable systems to mark threads or posts as "read". I'm using
several forums, mainly about photographic topics, by myself, but I
didn't find a single one that has a reliable way of telling me which
posts I have read already. If I was participating there mainly to answer
questions, I would like to get that fixed.
Perhaps echoing posts in a mailing list can help. This would allow the
supporters to track the forum via mail. If possible, it would be even
great to be able to send answers to the forum via mail too, but for me
that wouldn't be a necessity.
Besides that: IMHO we should discuss Rob's proposal to think about
next-gen support media (I really like the "stack overflow" web site and
similar sites). Rating and credit systems are a wonderful way to
increase the value of support media as a support database.
Regards,
Mathias
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>.
Idle curiosity: I wonder how many people who offer support do it in both places: mailing list and forum, or more or exclusively in one or the other.
Personal observation (not intended as a generalization): my preferences vary with whether I'm a consumer or a provider of support services. As a consumer, I generally prefer a forum, but as a provider I prefer an email list. Perhaps I'm just weird, or set in my ways... :-)
--Jean
On 24/08/2011, at 6:04, "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe that it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where to go to get an answer.
>
> Marcus
>
> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>> +1
>>
>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>
>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>
>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>
>> Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 16:49 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> > I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give
> > support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe that
> > it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where to
> > go to get an answer.
> >
>
> So let's be clear on what we're proposing. In order to give the users
> more flexibility, so they don't need to choose between a list or a
> forum, so they can just continue to do exactly what they do today,
> with no change, we will create, moderate and maintain 10 new mailings
> lists, as well as the associated archives:
>
> ooo-users-en.i.a.o
> ooo-users-es.i.a.o
> ooo-users-hu.i.a.o
> ooo-users-it.i.a.o
> ooo-users-ja.i.a.o
> ooo-users-nl.i.a.o
> ooo-users-pl.i.a.o
> ooo-users-vi.i.a.o
> ooo-users-zh.i.a.o
>
> Is that that idea? If so could we get names for 30 moderators,
> please, 3 per forum? .
No, you would need many more than that.
Languages, native lanauge that is what makes OO.o special - the
application ships with 100 + languages, not 10.
The User.serverces forums are only one site not all the web forums -
last I checked there where at least 12 other languages not found at
user.services.
//drew
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Kazunari Hirano <kh...@gmail.com>.
Hi Rob,
On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 5:49 AM, Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org> wrote:
> ooo-users-en.i.a.o
> ooo-users-es.i.a.o
> ooo-users-hu.i.a.o
> ooo-users-it.i.a.o
> ooo-users-ja.i.a.o
> ooo-users-nl.i.a.o
> ooo-users-pl.i.a.o
> ooo-users-vi.i.a.o
> ooo-users-zh.i.a.o
Looks great!
We create them on request.
> Is that that idea? If so could we get names for 30 moderators,
> please, 3 per forum? .
I am moderating the forum Japanese.
I will moderate it. So no problem with the forum.
I request the creation of ooo-users-ja.i.a.o.
I will moderate it. So no problem with the users mailing list Japanese.
:)
Thanks,
khirano
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Ah, now I understand. This is sarcasm. ;-)
Am 08/23/2011 11:37 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>> Do you know how much the non-English MLs are used? Why not start with Engish
>> only?
>>
>
> Does it matter? The English list is getting very little traffic. A
> note was sent today asking about interest. I've seen zero affirmative
> responses. So I don't think any of the lists will get much traffic.
> But it makes sense to JFDI and move on to more important things.
>
>> BTW:
>> Where do you see 30 moderators for the forums?
>>
>
> Three per forum. We don't want a single person to be a bottleneck for
> moderation. Otherwise, if you are busy, or traveling or on vacation,
> messages and other moderator requests get backed up. So ideally we
> want three moderators per list, in different time zones if possible.
>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 08/23/2011 10:49 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give
>>>> support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe
>>>> that
>>>> it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where
>>>> to
>>>> go to get an answer.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So let's be clear on what we're proposing. In order to give the users
>>> more flexibility, so they don't need to choose between a list or a
>>> forum, so they can just continue to do exactly what they do today,
>>> with no change, we will create, moderate and maintain 10 new mailings
>>> lists, as well as the associated archives:
>>>
>>> ooo-users-en.i.a.o
>>> ooo-users-es.i.a.o
>>> ooo-users-hu.i.a.o
>>> ooo-users-it.i.a.o
>>> ooo-users-ja.i.a.o
>>> ooo-users-nl.i.a.o
>>> ooo-users-pl.i.a.o
>>> ooo-users-vi.i.a.o
>>> ooo-users-zh.i.a.o
>>>
>>> Is that that idea? If so could we get names for 30 moderators,
>>> please, 3 per forum? .
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>>>> Marcus
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the
>>>>> forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Dennis
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:05
>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
>>>>> dev@openoffice.org]
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Marcus,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>>>>>>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has
>>>>>> Reply-To
>>>>>> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
>>>>>> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
>>>>> the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>>>>>>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>>>>>>> without.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>>>>>>> average user. But forums are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
>>>>>> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
>>>>>> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and
>>>>>> so
>>>>>> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
>>>>>> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
>>>>>> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>>>>>
>>>>> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
>>>>> obvious. All is in one place.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>>>>>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>>>>>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>>>>>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that just sucks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>>>>>>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>>>>>>> existing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and
>>>>> forum.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marcus
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re:
[Discussion] dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 19:38 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:25 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 18:21 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> >> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On 2011-08-23 3:37 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Does it matter? The English list is getting very little traffic.
> >> >
> >> > There were 56 posts to users@openoffice.org in the last week. Traffic is
> >> > highest after a new release. Here is a list by month for 2011: Jan 409
> >> > Feb 290 Mar 366 Apr 197 May 218 Jun 233 Jul 123 Aug 160
> >> >
> >>
> >> So the English support forum has 613 *active threads* for August
> >> alone. In many cases that multiplies out to multiple posts per
> >> thread. So the forum traffic dwarfs the mailing list traffic.
> >>
> >> >> A note was sent today asking about interest. I've seen zero affirmative
> >> >> responses.
> >> >
> >> > You have now. How much response do you expect in six hours (working hours in
> >> > NA) ?
> >> >
> >>
> >> So that is one.
> >>
> >> >> So I don't think any of the lists will get much traffic.
> >> >> But it makes sense to JFDI and move on to more important things.
> >> >
> >> > They will when you have a new release.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Forums will still dominate.
> >>
> >> > I am very pleased to hear that providing user support is not important.
> >> >
> >>
> >> That really doesn't add to the conversation, Larry.
> >>
> >> I think we have similar goals.
> >
> > Finally - actually I do not know what you goals are and more importantly
> > I do not know what the overall goal of what is happening here is.
> >
> > That is not rhetorical, are we just sunsetting the OO.o project are we
> > setting up to become OSS-Symphony or are we building a user facing
> > product...it makes a difference as to what needs to be done now.
> >
>
> Honestly?
Yes honestly would be good.
> We're bikeshedding while waiting for the SVN dump to be
> loaded. But we should probably use this time to get Bugzilla migrated
> to Apache, since we're going to be hurting if we don't have that in a
> few more weeks.
Agreed.
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re:
[Discussion] dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 7:25 PM, drew <dr...@baseanswers.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 18:21 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 2011-08-23 3:37 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Does it matter? The English list is getting very little traffic.
>> >
>> > There were 56 posts to users@openoffice.org in the last week. Traffic is
>> > highest after a new release. Here is a list by month for 2011: Jan 409
>> > Feb 290 Mar 366 Apr 197 May 218 Jun 233 Jul 123 Aug 160
>> >
>>
>> So the English support forum has 613 *active threads* for August
>> alone. In many cases that multiplies out to multiple posts per
>> thread. So the forum traffic dwarfs the mailing list traffic.
>>
>> >> A note was sent today asking about interest. I've seen zero affirmative
>> >> responses.
>> >
>> > You have now. How much response do you expect in six hours (working hours in
>> > NA) ?
>> >
>>
>> So that is one.
>>
>> >> So I don't think any of the lists will get much traffic.
>> >> But it makes sense to JFDI and move on to more important things.
>> >
>> > They will when you have a new release.
>> >
>>
>> Forums will still dominate.
>>
>> > I am very pleased to hear that providing user support is not important.
>> >
>>
>> That really doesn't add to the conversation, Larry.
>>
>> I think we have similar goals.
>
> Finally - actually I do not know what you goals are and more importantly
> I do not know what the overall goal of what is happening here is.
>
> That is not rhetorical, are we just sunsetting the OO.o project are we
> setting up to become OSS-Symphony or are we building a user facing
> product...it makes a difference as to what needs to be done now.
>
Honestly? We're bikeshedding while waiting for the SVN dump to be
loaded. But we should probably use this time to get Bugzilla migrated
to Apache, since we're going to be hurting if we don't have that in a
few more weeks.
Of course, it is worth having a discussion about high importance/lower
urgency things, like our long term support strategy, but that should
probably occur in its own thread.
>
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re:
[Discussion] dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by drew <dr...@baseanswers.com>.
On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 18:21 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 2011-08-23 3:37 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> >>
> >> Does it matter? The English list is getting very little traffic.
> >
> > There were 56 posts to users@openoffice.org in the last week. Traffic is
> > highest after a new release. Here is a list by month for 2011: Jan 409
> > Feb 290 Mar 366 Apr 197 May 218 Jun 233 Jul 123 Aug 160
> >
>
> So the English support forum has 613 *active threads* for August
> alone. In many cases that multiplies out to multiple posts per
> thread. So the forum traffic dwarfs the mailing list traffic.
>
> >> A note was sent today asking about interest. I've seen zero affirmative
> >> responses.
> >
> > You have now. How much response do you expect in six hours (working hours in
> > NA) ?
> >
>
> So that is one.
>
> >> So I don't think any of the lists will get much traffic.
> >> But it makes sense to JFDI and move on to more important things.
> >
> > They will when you have a new release.
> >
>
> Forums will still dominate.
>
> > I am very pleased to hear that providing user support is not important.
> >
>
> That really doesn't add to the conversation, Larry.
>
> I think we have similar goals.
Finally - actually I do not know what you goals are and more importantly
I do not know what the overall goal of what is happening here is.
That is not rhetorical, are we just sunsetting the OO.o project are we
setting up to become OSS-Symphony or are we building a user facing
product...it makes a difference as to what needs to be done now.
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org
[Was: Re: [Discussion] dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2011-08-23 5:08 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Larry Gusaas<la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps you should compare to the LibreOffice user support list since they
>> have active development. There were 335 post to that list in the last week.
> Do you have any reason to think that with a new release, that support
> questions to forum and mailing lists would not increase by a similar
> factor? Contrary any other evidence that would be the most natural
> assumption.
Of course both would increase. Did I ever suggest otherwise. Do you want to not give support to
the large number of people who prefer to use mailing lists? There is a need for both types of
support.
> Stick around a few more days. Every week or so we get another thread suggesting that we
> should create more mailing lists. Support lists are list the latest reincarnation of this..
> So it is relevant that this tendency, unopposed, led to hundreds of lists for OOo.
Nice try at re-iterating your red herring. It is still not relevant to providing support to users.
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org
[Was: Re: [Discussion] dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2011-08-23 4:21 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> So the English support forum has 613 *active threads* for August
>> alone. In many cases that multiplies out to multiple posts per
>> thread. So the forum traffic dwarfs the mailing list traffic.
>
> Perhaps you should compare to the LibreOffice user support list since they
> have active development. There were 335 post to that list in the last week.
>
Do you have any reason to think that with a new release, that support
questions to forum and mailing lists would not increase by a similar
factor? Contrary any other evidence that would be the most natural
assumption.
>>> I am very pleased to hear that providing user support is not important.
>>
>> That really doesn't add to the conversation, Larry.
>
> Neither does your repeated negativity about mailing lists. Or your throwing
> in red herrings like the number of mailing lists OOo has, most of which
> aren't support lists.
>
Stick around a few more days. Every week or so we get another thread
suggesting that we should create more mailing lists. Support lists
are list the latest reincarnation of this.. So it is relevant that
this tendency, unopposed, led to hundreds of lists for OOo.
-Rob
> _________________________________
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
>
>
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org
[Was: Re: [Discussion] dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg-XMD5yJDbdMReXY1tMh2IBg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2011-08-23 4:21 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> So the English support forum has 613 *active threads* for August
> alone. In many cases that multiplies out to multiple posts per
> thread. So the forum traffic dwarfs the mailing list traffic.
Perhaps you should compare to the LibreOffice user support list since they have active
development. There were 335 post to that list in the last week.
>> I am very pleased to hear that providing user support is not important.
> That really doesn't add to the conversation, Larry.
Neither does your repeated negativity about mailing lists. Or your throwing in red herrings
like the number of mailing lists OOo has, most of which aren't support lists.
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re:
[Discussion] dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2011-08-23 3:37 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>>
>> Does it matter? The English list is getting very little traffic.
>
> There were 56 posts to users@openoffice.org in the last week. Traffic is
> highest after a new release. Here is a list by month for 2011: Jan 409
> Feb 290 Mar 366 Apr 197 May 218 Jun 233 Jul 123 Aug 160
>
So the English support forum has 613 *active threads* for August
alone. In many cases that multiplies out to multiple posts per
thread. So the forum traffic dwarfs the mailing list traffic.
>> A note was sent today asking about interest. I've seen zero affirmative
>> responses.
>
> You have now. How much response do you expect in six hours (working hours in
> NA) ?
>
So that is one.
>> So I don't think any of the lists will get much traffic.
>> But it makes sense to JFDI and move on to more important things.
>
> They will when you have a new release.
>
Forums will still dominate.
> I am very pleased to hear that providing user support is not important.
>
That really doesn't add to the conversation, Larry.
I think we have similar goals. Support is important. The question is
how best to do it. If all we're doing is considering the merits of
different access methods to support, without looking at the
implications of fragmenting the repositories and the resulting
knowledge base, then we are doing a poor job at thinking this through.
Remember the best support site is the one that allows the user to
answer their own question, without signing up for a mailing list or
posting to a forum. We should be looking at how we can prevent user
support questions.
>
> _________________________________
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
>
>
Re: users-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
dev-JNqQRFIbOJOM4zKIHC2jIg@public.gmane.org]
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2011-08-23 3:37 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> Does it matter? The English list is getting very little traffic.
There were 56 posts to users@openoffice.org in the last week. Traffic is highest after a new
release. Here is a list by month for 2011: Jan 409 Feb 290 Mar 366 Apr 197 May
218 Jun 233 Jul 123 Aug 160
> A note was sent today asking about interest. I've seen zero affirmative
> responses.
You have now. How much response do you expect in six hours (working hours in NA) ?
> So I don't think any of the lists will get much traffic.
> But it makes sense to JFDI and move on to more important things.
They will when you have a new release.
I am very pleased to hear that providing user support is not important.
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> Do you know how much the non-English MLs are used? Why not start with Engish
> only?
>
Does it matter? The English list is getting very little traffic. A
note was sent today asking about interest. I've seen zero affirmative
responses. So I don't think any of the lists will get much traffic.
But it makes sense to JFDI and move on to more important things.
> BTW:
> Where do you see 30 moderators for the forums?
>
Three per forum. We don't want a single person to be a bottleneck for
moderation. Otherwise, if you are busy, or traveling or on vacation,
messages and other moderator requests get backed up. So ideally we
want three moderators per list, in different time zones if possible.
> Marcus
>
>
>
> Am 08/23/2011 10:49 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give
>>> support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe
>>> that
>>> it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where
>>> to
>>> go to get an answer.
>>>
>>
>> So let's be clear on what we're proposing. In order to give the users
>> more flexibility, so they don't need to choose between a list or a
>> forum, so they can just continue to do exactly what they do today,
>> with no change, we will create, moderate and maintain 10 new mailings
>> lists, as well as the associated archives:
>>
>> ooo-users-en.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-es.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-hu.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-it.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-ja.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-nl.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-pl.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-vi.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-zh.i.a.o
>>
>> Is that that idea? If so could we get names for 30 moderators,
>> please, 3 per forum? .
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the
>>>> forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>>>
>>>> - Dennis
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:05
>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
>>>> dev@openoffice.org]
>>>>
>>>> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Marcus,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>>>>>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>>>>>
>>>>> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has
>>>>> Reply-To
>>>>> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
>>>>> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
>>>> the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>>>>
>>>>>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>>>>>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>>>>>> without.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>>>>>> average user. But forums are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
>>>>> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
>>>>> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and
>>>>> so
>>>>> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
>>>>> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
>>>>> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>>>>
>>>> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
>>>> obvious. All is in one place.
>>>>
>>>>>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>>>>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>>>>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>>>>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that just sucks.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>>>>>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>>>>>> existing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>>>>
>>>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and
>>>> forum.
>>>>
>>>> Marcus
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Do you know how much the non-English MLs are used? Why not start with
Engish only?
BTW:
Where do you see 30 moderators for the forums?
Marcus
Am 08/23/2011 10:49 PM, schrieb Rob Weir:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Marcus (OOo)<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give
>> support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe that
>> it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where to
>> go to get an answer.
>>
>
> So let's be clear on what we're proposing. In order to give the users
> more flexibility, so they don't need to choose between a list or a
> forum, so they can just continue to do exactly what they do today,
> with no change, we will create, moderate and maintain 10 new mailings
> lists, as well as the associated archives:
>
> ooo-users-en.i.a.o
> ooo-users-es.i.a.o
> ooo-users-hu.i.a.o
> ooo-users-it.i.a.o
> ooo-users-ja.i.a.o
> ooo-users-nl.i.a.o
> ooo-users-pl.i.a.o
> ooo-users-vi.i.a.o
> ooo-users-zh.i.a.o
>
> Is that that idea? If so could we get names for 30 moderators,
> please, 3 per forum? .
>
> -Rob
>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the
>>> forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>>
>>> - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:05
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
>>> dev@openoffice.org]
>>>
>>> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Marcus,
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>>>>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>>>>
>>>> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
>>>> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
>>>> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>>>
>>> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
>>> the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>>>
>>>>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>>>>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>>>>> without.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>>>>> average user. But forums are.
>>>>
>>>> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
>>>> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
>>>> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
>>>> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
>>>> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
>>>> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>>>
>>> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
>>> obvious. All is in one place.
>>>
>>>>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>>>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>>>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>>>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>>>>
>>>> And that just sucks.
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>>>>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>>>>> existing.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>>>
>>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>>
>>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>>
>>> Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:49 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give
>>> support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe that
>>> it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where to
>>> go to get an answer.
>>>
>>
>> So let's be clear on what we're proposing. In order to give the users
>> more flexibility, so they don't need to choose between a list or a
>> forum, so they can just continue to do exactly what they do today,
>> with no change, we will create, moderate and maintain 10 new mailings
>> lists, as well as the associated archives:
>>
>> ooo-users-en.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-es.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-hu.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-it.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-ja.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-nl.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-pl.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-vi.i.a.o
>> ooo-users-zh.i.a.o
>>
>> Is that that idea? If so could we get names for 30 moderators,
>> please, 3 per forum? .
>
> It is the idea. Except that each language is added as requested.
>
I'm proposing/requesting them all. I haven't heard anyone from the
en user list pop over here and ask for a list, so none of are being
created based on any real analysis of user need. I've seen zero
analysis of traffic for user lists versus forum. I've only heard
arguments that some users like mailing lists, some like forums. So
I'm propiosing to just create all of them now. It is senseless to
discuss this further if we're not bring any facts, just opinions. So
JFDI. Starting with the 10 user lists. Then we can move on to create
the other 600 project related lists. Then maybe we can get on to
incidental matters, like writing code.
> How many PPMC moderators? - I think a minimum of one and they are responsible to the rest of the PPMC for recruiting greater coverage and nominating those with proven merit on the list for committership. That's my recollection of prior discussion.
>
> On Aug 23, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Kazunari Hirano wrote:
>
>> Hi Marcus and all,
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>> +1
>> The forum will support 10 languages such as EN(English), ES(Spanish),
>> FR(French), HU(Hungarian), IT(Italian), JA(Japanese), NL(Dutch),
>> PL(Polish), VI(Vietnamese) and ZH(Chinese).
>> The ML should support these languages if those language communities want.
>> If we decide that users@openoffice.org subscribers should be invited
>> to ooo-users@incubator.apache.org, and discuss@openoffice.org
>> subscribers should be invited to ooo-general@incubator.apache.org,
>> then Japanese community would like to invite users@ja.openoffice.org
>> subscribers to ooo-ja-users@incubator.apache.org, and to invite
>> announce@ja.openoffice.org, dev@ja.openoffice.org,
>> discuss@ja.openoffice.org, documentation@ja.openoffice.org,
>> marketing@ja.openoffice.org, qa@ja.openoffice.org,
>> translate@ja.openoffice.org subscribers to
>> ooo-ja-general@incubator.apache.org.
>
> These are in a different form from Rob's.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
>
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the
>>>> forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>>>
>>>> - Dennis
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:05
>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
>>>> dev@openoffice.org]
>>>>
>>>> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Marcus,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>>>>>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>>>>>
>>>>> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
>>>>> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
>>>>> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
>>>> the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>>>>
>>>>>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>>>>>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>>>>>> without.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>>>>>> average user. But forums are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
>>>>> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
>>>>> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
>>>>> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
>>>>> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
>>>>> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>>>>
>>>> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
>>>> obvious. All is in one place.
>>>>
>>>>>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>>>>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>>>>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>>>>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that just sucks.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>>>>>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>>>>>> existing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>>>>
>>>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>>>
>>>> Marcus
>>>
>
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
On Aug 23, 2011, at 1:49 PM, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give
>> support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe that
>> it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where to
>> go to get an answer.
>>
>
> So let's be clear on what we're proposing. In order to give the users
> more flexibility, so they don't need to choose between a list or a
> forum, so they can just continue to do exactly what they do today,
> with no change, we will create, moderate and maintain 10 new mailings
> lists, as well as the associated archives:
>
> ooo-users-en.i.a.o
> ooo-users-es.i.a.o
> ooo-users-hu.i.a.o
> ooo-users-it.i.a.o
> ooo-users-ja.i.a.o
> ooo-users-nl.i.a.o
> ooo-users-pl.i.a.o
> ooo-users-vi.i.a.o
> ooo-users-zh.i.a.o
>
> Is that that idea? If so could we get names for 30 moderators,
> please, 3 per forum? .
It is the idea. Except that each language is added as requested.
How many PPMC moderators? - I think a minimum of one and they are responsible to the rest of the PPMC for recruiting greater coverage and nominating those with proven merit on the list for committership. That's my recollection of prior discussion.
On Aug 23, 2011, at 7:55 AM, Kazunari Hirano wrote:
> Hi Marcus and all,
>
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
> +1
> The forum will support 10 languages such as EN(English), ES(Spanish),
> FR(French), HU(Hungarian), IT(Italian), JA(Japanese), NL(Dutch),
> PL(Polish), VI(Vietnamese) and ZH(Chinese).
> The ML should support these languages if those language communities want.
> If we decide that users@openoffice.org subscribers should be invited
> to ooo-users@incubator.apache.org, and discuss@openoffice.org
> subscribers should be invited to ooo-general@incubator.apache.org,
> then Japanese community would like to invite users@ja.openoffice.org
> subscribers to ooo-ja-users@incubator.apache.org, and to invite
> announce@ja.openoffice.org, dev@ja.openoffice.org,
> discuss@ja.openoffice.org, documentation@ja.openoffice.org,
> marketing@ja.openoffice.org, qa@ja.openoffice.org,
> translate@ja.openoffice.org subscribers to
> ooo-ja-general@incubator.apache.org.
These are in a different form from Rob's.
Regards,
Dave
>
> -Rob
>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the
>>> forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>>
>>> - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:05
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
>>> dev@openoffice.org]
>>>
>>> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Marcus,
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>>>>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>>>>
>>>> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
>>>> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
>>>> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>>>
>>> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
>>> the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>>>
>>>>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>>>>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>>>>> without.
>>>>>
>>>>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>>>>> average user. But forums are.
>>>>
>>>> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
>>>> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
>>>> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
>>>> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
>>>> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
>>>> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>>>
>>> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
>>> obvious. All is in one place.
>>>
>>>>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>>>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>>>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>>>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>>>>
>>>> And that just sucks.
>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>>>>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>>>>> existing.
>>>>
>>>> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>>>
>>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>>
>>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Marcus (OOo) <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give
> support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe that
> it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice where to
> go to get an answer.
>
So let's be clear on what we're proposing. In order to give the users
more flexibility, so they don't need to choose between a list or a
forum, so they can just continue to do exactly what they do today,
with no change, we will create, moderate and maintain 10 new mailings
lists, as well as the associated archives:
ooo-users-en.i.a.o
ooo-users-es.i.a.o
ooo-users-hu.i.a.o
ooo-users-it.i.a.o
ooo-users-ja.i.a.o
ooo-users-nl.i.a.o
ooo-users-pl.i.a.o
ooo-users-vi.i.a.o
ooo-users-zh.i.a.o
Is that that idea? If so could we get names for 30 moderators,
please, 3 per forum? .
-Rob
> Marcus
>
>
>
> Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
>>
>> +1
>>
>> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the
>> forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:05
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion]
>> dev@openoffice.org]
>>
>> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
>>>
>>> Hi Marcus,
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>
>>>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>>>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>>>
>>> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
>>> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
>>> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>>
>> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
>> the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>>
>>>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>>>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>>>> without.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>>>> average user. But forums are.
>>>
>>> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
>>> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
>>> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
>>> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
>>> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
>>> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>>
>> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
>> obvious. All is in one place.
>>
>>>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>>>
>>> And that just sucks.
>>>
>>>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>>>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>>>> existing.
>>>
>>> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>>
>> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>>
>> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>>
>> Marcus
>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
I can understand Rob's arguement that we have to split ourself to give
support for mailing list(s) and forum in parallel. However, I believe
that it would be an advantage when the normal, average user has a choice
where to go to get an answer.
Marcus
Am 08/23/2011 09:50 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton:
> +1
>
> There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:05
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
>
> Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
>> Hi Marcus,
>>
>> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>
>>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>>
>> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
>> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
>> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
>
> Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
> the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>
>>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>>> without.
>>>
>>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>>> average user. But forums are.
>>
>> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
>> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
>> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
>> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
>> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
>> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
>
> Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
> obvious. All is in one place.
>
>>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>>
>> And that just sucks.
>>
>>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>>> existing.
>>
>> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
>
> And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
>
> At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
>
> Marcus
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1
There is no one-size fits all here. We should have the list and the forum. They are not redundant. Some people will use both.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus (OOo) [mailto:marcus.mail@wtnet.de]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 07:05
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
> Hi Marcus,
>
> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>
>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>
> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>> without.
>>
>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>> average user. But forums are.
>
> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
obvious. All is in one place.
>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>
> And that just sucks.
>
>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>> existing.
>
> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 08/23/2011 03:29 PM, schrieb Eike Rathke:
> Hi Marcus,
>
> On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>
>> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
>> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
>
> That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
> pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
> Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
Maybe, but they are still not subscribed. So the moderator has to let
the posts through; again and again until the user is subscribed.
>> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
>> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
>> without.
>>
>> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
>> average user. But forums are.
>
> Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
> handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
> scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
> on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
> a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
> possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
Not before they got to know how this is working. In a forum it is
obvious. All is in one place.
>>> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
>>> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
>>> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
>>> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
>
> And that just sucks.
>
>> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
>> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
>> existing.
>
> Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
And there are users that try to avoid mailing lists. ;-)
At the end it seems the best solution is still to go 2 ways: ML and forum.
Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Eike Rathke <oo...@erack.de>.
Hi Marcus,
On Tuesday, 2011-08-23 11:11:35 +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
> And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
> don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
That actually is a failure of how the list is setup when it has Reply-To
pointing to the mailing list address (AKA Reply-To mangling). Without
Reply-To a Reply-All goes to the sender and the mailing list.
> In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get
> answers. It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work
> without.
>
> Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the
> average user. But forums are.
Mailing lists are much more accepted by those who actually help because
handling is much easier than any web forum. You can setup your own
scoring, flags, delete unimportant stuff in your personal archive and so
on. To get the best of both worlds best would be a forum gated to
a mailing list and vice versa. Searching the mailing list would also be
possible at mail-archive.com, or gmane..
> >What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
> >anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
> >subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
> >can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
And that just sucks.
> I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there
> is no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not
> existing.
Well, I try to avoid forums whenever possible.
Eike
--
PGP/OpenPGP/GnuPG encrypted mail preferred in all private communication.
Key ID: 0x293C05FD - 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Mathias Bauer <Ma...@gmx.net>.
On 23.08.2011 02:18, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>>
>> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a
>> functional list with several posts in a day and the change is
>> hiding that list.
>>
>> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>>
>> Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
>>
>
> I've been wondering the same thing. I started following
> users@openoffice.org around a week ago. It is getting some traffic,
> but not a lot.
>
> I think the larger question is this: How do we want to support
> users? Mailing list? Forums? Both?
What about discussing that on users@ooo?
Regards,
Mathias
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
+1
Am 08/23/2011 11:32 AM, schrieb Jean Weber:
> When users see what looks like an email address in the context of "support", they typically think it is a help desk, not a mailing list (and they may not even know what a mailing list is). A forum is not going to be mistaken for a "help desk" email address. So I think Terry and others are correct that we could dispense with providing an equivalent to the users list at OOo.
>
> --Jean
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Jean Hollis Weber <je...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 07:57 -0400, Rob Weir wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > When users see what looks like an email address in the context of "support", they typically think it is a help desk, not a mailing list (and they may not even know what a mailing list is). A forum is not going to be mistaken for a "help desk" email address. So I think Terry and others are correct that we could dispense with providing an equivalent to the users list at OOo.
> >
> > --Jean
>
> That is a good point, one I had not thought of.
>
> We need to remember that the average user seeking support is not an
> email power user. They are not a master of mailing lists, inbox
> filters/rules, etc. This is also probably true of some of the
> volunteers who wish to help support users.
Many of the people who have helped a lot on the user guides are
definitely not email power users. Indeed, I am certainly not in the
email power user category myself. For example, despite many years on
email and mailing lists, I only learned about threading a year or so
ago. :-)
--Jean
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 5:32 AM, Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When users see what looks like an email address in the context of "support", they typically think it is a help desk, not a mailing list (and they may not even know what a mailing list is). A forum is not going to be mistaken for a "help desk" email address. So I think Terry and others are correct that we could dispense with providing an equivalent to the users list at OOo.
>
> --Jean
That is a good point, one I had not thought of.
We need to remember that the average user seeking support is not an
email power user. They are not a master of mailing lists, inbox
filters/rules, etc. This is also probably true of some of the
volunteers who wish to help support users.
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>.
When users see what looks like an email address in the context of "support", they typically think it is a help desk, not a mailing list (and they may not even know what a mailing list is). A forum is not going to be mistaken for a "help desk" email address. So I think Terry and others are correct that we could dispense with providing an equivalent to the users list at OOo.
--Jean
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Am 08/23/2011 02:18 AM, schrieb Rob Weir:
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Dave Fisher<da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>>
>> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
>>
>> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>>
>> Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
>>
>
> I've been wondering the same thing. I started following
> users@openoffice.org around a week ago. It is getting some traffic,
> but not a lot.
>
> I think the larger question is this: How do we want to support users?
> Mailing list? Forums? Both?
>
> There are some advantages to getting the user questions all in one
> place. That gives a single place for us to monitor. It also gives a
> single place for users to search to see if their questions had been
> previously asked/answered, etc.
>
> Since we are dealing in many cases with less technical end users, the
> mailing list interface itself will require support, e.g., users unable
> to figure out how to unsubscribe. Since the support forum does not
> require subscription, that is one less thing to worry about.
Right, I don't see any benefit to use a mailing list as normal user. You
cannot search for others that have the same thing; unless you explain
the users how and where to search.
And very often they write to the list but aren't subscribed. So they
don't get the answer unless someone is CC'ing them.
In a forum all in one place. You can search, write and can get answers.
It's up to us if a subscription is needed. It would work without.
Furthermore, I don't think that mailing lists are common for the average
user. But forums are.
> What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
> anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
> subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
> can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
I don't think that we or the users would miss anything because there is
no chance to miss something as the communitation method is not existing.
Marcus
>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 4:09 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>
>>> Am 08/23/2011 12:50 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 08/22/2011 11:45 PM, schrieb Andy Brown:
>>>>>> Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>>> @all:
>>>>>>> If there is somewhere else a place that should be updated (and I've
>>>>>>> write access) please let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have access, maybe on the mailing list page on the OOo site [1]
>>>>>> or [2]. If not then post a message to the list that your on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://support.openoffice.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, for the support area I haven't write access. However, it would be sufficient to delete the "Users Mail List" row and to keep the "General OOo Mail Lists" row as it points already to the modified webpage.
>>>>
>>>> We are acting a little quickly.
>>>
>>> Really? ;-)
>>> The ooo-dev@ mailing list is present since months. For the same long time the old MLs have lost a lot of users/posts.
>>>
>>>> Shouldn't we have an ooo-users@incubator.apache.org before we delete the Users Mail List on the OOo site?
>>>
>>> The data is still there. It's just the collected link list that is no longer present/visible.
>>>
>>>>>> [2] http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there something else that needs to be changed? Normally it should be fine already. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> The old version is carefully hidden here [3]
>>>>
>>>> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/www/mail_list.html
>>>>
>>>> Until we move the users@ooo list I think that needs to be added back to [2] and then [2] checked into to [3].
>>>
>>> But until this all isn't live it won't help to bring over the possible new dev's. I think it's OK to start now to point to the new mailing list(s).
>>>
>>>> BTW - Creating the support area is one of the next items in the podling site. [4]
>>>>
>>>> [4] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/support/
>>>
>>> Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Rob Weir <ap...@robweir.com>.
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>
> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
>
> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>
> Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
>
I've been wondering the same thing. I started following
users@openoffice.org around a week ago. It is getting some traffic,
but not a lot.
I think the larger question is this: How do we want to support users?
Mailing list? Forums? Both?
There are some advantages to getting the user questions all in one
place. That gives a single place for us to monitor. It also gives a
single place for users to search to see if their questions had been
previously asked/answered, etc.
Since we are dealing in many cases with less technical end users, the
mailing list interface itself will require support, e.g., users unable
to figure out how to unsubscribe. Since the support forum does not
require subscription, that is one less thing to worry about.
What if we just had support forums, but no users list? Would we miss
anything? Would users? Note that phpBB forums allow a person to
subscribe to a forum or a topic, so those who want to receive emails
can. But they would need to go back to the forum website to respond.
-Rob
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> On Aug 22, 2011, at 4:09 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>
>> Am 08/23/2011 12:50 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>>>
>>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 08/22/2011 11:45 PM, schrieb Andy Brown:
>>>>> Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>> @all:
>>>>>> If there is somewhere else a place that should be updated (and I've
>>>>>> write access) please let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have access, maybe on the mailing list page on the OOo site [1]
>>>>> or [2]. If not then post a message to the list that your on.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://support.openoffice.org/
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, for the support area I haven't write access. However, it would be sufficient to delete the "Users Mail List" row and to keep the "General OOo Mail Lists" row as it points already to the modified webpage.
>>>
>>> We are acting a little quickly.
>>
>> Really? ;-)
>> The ooo-dev@ mailing list is present since months. For the same long time the old MLs have lost a lot of users/posts.
>>
>>> Shouldn't we have an ooo-users@incubator.apache.org before we delete the Users Mail List on the OOo site?
>>
>> The data is still there. It's just the collected link list that is no longer present/visible.
>>
>>>>> [2] http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html
>>>>
>>>> Is there something else that needs to be changed? Normally it should be fine already. ;-)
>>>
>>> The old version is carefully hidden here [3]
>>>
>>> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/www/mail_list.html
>>>
>>> Until we move the users@ooo list I think that needs to be added back to [2] and then [2] checked into to [3].
>>
>> But until this all isn't live it won't help to bring over the possible new dev's. I think it's OK to start now to point to the new mailing list(s).
>>
>>> BTW - Creating the support area is one of the next items in the podling site. [4]
>>>
>>> [4] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/support/
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>
>
RE: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
+1
Yes, we should just put up at least users-ooo and discuss-ooo if there are enough committers willing to moderate each of them.
With regard to forums, I expect we will have forums as well, just as OpenOffice.org does. I see no reason not to have mailing lists also, especially this small number.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Brown [mailto:andy@the-martin-byrd.net]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 17:39
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Dave Fisher wrote:
> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>
> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
>
> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>
> Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
>
> Regards,
> Dave
I think the sooner the better, myself. An I would also like to see
something along the lines of the Discuss@oo.o list, it still receives
messages from time to time, and it a place that users discuss OOo but
not a general "help" list like Users@.
Andy
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Andy Brown <an...@the-martin-byrd.net>.
Dave Fisher wrote:
> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>
> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
>
> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>
> Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
>
> Regards,
> Dave
I think the sooner the better, myself. An I would also like to see
something along the lines of the Discuss@oo.o list, it still receives
messages from time to time, and it a place that users discuss OOo but
not a general "help" list like Users@.
Andy
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
On 8/24/2011 1:28 AM, Terry Ellison wrote:
> I've just been catching up and reading this thread. Most of the main
> points have been made and discussed. But I think that there is one point
> that hasn't: so let me summarise so far:
>
> * DLs and Forums each have their sweet-spot advantages and
> disadvantages.
> * In general individuals have a strong preference for one or the other.
> * IMHO, true end-users rarely use emails or DLs for this type of
> user support. They seem to prefer asking google which then points
> at somewhere they can find an answer, which for something like OOo
> support will be a wiki or a forum.
> * Developers as a breed are often more email oriented.
>
> However, here is my point. Giving support of a FLOSS product is not so
> much about being able to ask questions; /it's about getting volunteers
> willing to provide quality answers/, so a critical success factor is how
> we cultivate and make it easy for the power users to contribute. I say
> power users, because my experience is that in general OOo developers
> want absolutely nothing to do with answering users questions. (And the
> people who are willing to answer in general hate using email.)
Excellent points, nicely explained!
Personally, if there were some committers who would volunteer to
moderate, I'd just create an ooo-user@ mailing list now. Almost all
projects already have a user list, so it'd be worth creating one if for
only to give interested users a place to start asking questions about
the future plans of the podling.
It also seems clear that with the OOo history and end-user base that
some of the existing forums (whatever kind) will need to be continued.
That's up to the project to figure out how to do and maintain. The only
bigger ASF issue is ensuring that any new content added to forums that
the ASF hosts is compatible with AL wherever possible.
- Shane
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Terry Ellison <te...@apache.org>.
I've just been catching up and reading this thread. Most of the main
points have been made and discussed. But I think that there is one point
that hasn't: so let me summarise so far:
* DLs and Forums each have their sweet-spot advantages and
disadvantages.
* In general individuals have a strong preference for one or the other.
* IMHO, true end-users rarely use emails or DLs for this type of
user support. They seem to prefer asking google which then points
at somewhere they can find an answer, which for something like OOo
support will be a wiki or a forum.
* Developers as a breed are often more email oriented.
However, here is my point. Giving support of a FLOSS product is not so
much about being able to ask questions; /it's about getting volunteers
willing to provide quality answers/, so a critical success factor is how
we cultivate and make it easy for the power users to contribute. I say
power users, because my experience is that in general OOo developers
want absolutely nothing to do with answering users questions. (And the
people who are willing to answer in general hate using email.)
On a year-to-date average, we have around 250 posts / day across the 10
NL forums - put simply these are split 50:50 between questioners and
answers from power users. What this doesn't include is the tens of
thousands of page views by guest looking for answers and wanting to
avoid to ask the question.
Power users like answering interesting and new questions. After all
they aren't paid to do this. So they tend to give short-shrift to anyone
asking a Q that can easily be answered because it has been asked and
answered many times, and in fact if you've posted less than ten times
then there is an explicit warning on the posting form to read the
"Survival guide" and make sure that the question isn't already answered
before post. People who don't do this get a stock referral to this
guideline or a link to the topic discussing there Q.
So my recommendation is that is if we look at the user query volumes an
email based system just doesn't scale and won't receive sufficient
support from power users to be effective.
Regards Terry
As a postscript, I have developed a custom extension to phpBB which is
to have a contact email address address for each NL forum
(forumadminen@user.services.openoffice.org in the EN case). This is
needed for genuine catch-22s such as visually impaired people not being
able to read the Captcha check. This used to be a DL to the moderators,
but we found that moderators would often answer the same Q twice. Now
such emails get posted to a moderator-only forum "Site -- Forum Inbox"
and there is a topic for each month collecting these emails posts. Any
poster gets one of two stock answers, In the case of unregistered users
it is the following (For registered users it is a variant which points
to the "how to reset a forgotten password topic). We monitor this and
one moderator tags each post with a "std answer sufficient", deletes it
in the case of spam, or "I will take this."
> Thank-you,
>
> This is an automated response on behalf of the OpenOffice.org
> community forum administrators. This mailbox is for assisting users
> with registration difficulties. The best place to find out information
> and to ask questions is on our forums. We therefore only respond by
> email to those questions that cannot be resolved through using our
> forums.
>
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?t=527 gives
> you guidance if you have registration difficulties.
>
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5569
> explains how to ask a Q on the forum.
>
> We have looked up your email address in our forum registration
> database and according to our records we have no registered user with
> the address xxx@yyyy.ddd. You need to register with the forum at
> http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ucp.php?mode=login before
> you can post questions. It only takes a minute or so to fill in the
> form and then click on the link in our confirmation email to activate
> your account.
>
> Note that this board is not managed by the OOo team. Therefore, if you
> have an account for the main site, you have to create another one for
> the forum. If the username has not been used yet, you can have the
> same login information.
>
> Note that to prevent mail loops, we only send out one automated
> response per sender. Our forum administrators also routinely monitor
> this mailbox and one will contact you separately if we believe that
> your request is not covered by this automated response.
Dave Fisher wrote:
> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>
> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
>
> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>
<and the hundred odd emails that follow>
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
I can imagine what you think of. However, this was our consensus; or at
least the last standpoint in the discussion weeks ago.
I'm fine when we now decide different and create a new mailing list just
for users.
Marcus
Am 08/23/2011 11:08 AM, schrieb Jean Weber:
> IMO, any ordinary user who stumbled upon this list (ooo-dev) would be frightened away immediately. This list is totally unsuitable for user support.
>
> --Jean
>
> On 23/08/2011, at 19:02, "Marcus (OOo)"<ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
>
>> Wasn't there consensus to wait for new mailing lists until there is really a need to split up the things?
>>
>> When we would follow this way, then we have to wait until the messages on ooo-dev@ from normal users grow up too much.
>>
>> Otherwise we would create a mailing list for (currently) nobody. ;-)
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 08/23/2011 01:46 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>>> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>>>
>>> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
>>>
>>> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>>>
>>> Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 4:09 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 08/23/2011 12:50 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 08/22/2011 11:45 PM, schrieb Andy Brown:
>>>>>>> Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>>>> @all:
>>>>>>>> If there is somewhere else a place that should be updated (and I've
>>>>>>>> write access) please let me know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have access, maybe on the mailing list page on the OOo site [1]
>>>>>>> or [2]. If not then post a message to the list that your on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] http://support.openoffice.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry, for the support area I haven't write access. However, it would be sufficient to delete the "Users Mail List" row and to keep the "General OOo Mail Lists" row as it points already to the modified webpage.
>>>>>
>>>>> We are acting a little quickly.
>>>>
>>>> Really? ;-)
>>>> The ooo-dev@ mailing list is present since months. For the same long time the old MLs have lost a lot of users/posts.
>>>>
>>>>> Shouldn't we have an ooo-users@incubator.apache.org before we delete the Users Mail List on the OOo site?
>>>>
>>>> The data is still there. It's just the collected link list that is no longer present/visible.
>>>>
>>>>>>> [2] http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there something else that needs to be changed? Normally it should be fine already. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> The old version is carefully hidden here [3]
>>>>>
>>>>> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/www/mail_list.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Until we move the users@ooo list I think that needs to be added back to [2] and then [2] checked into to [3].
>>>>
>>>> But until this all isn't live it won't help to bring over the possible new dev's. I think it's OK to start now to point to the new mailing list(s).
>>>>
>>>>> BTW - Creating the support area is one of the next items in the podling site. [4]
>>>>>
>>>>> [4] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/support/
>>>>
>>>> Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by Jean Weber <je...@gmail.com>.
IMO, any ordinary user who stumbled upon this list (ooo-dev) would be frightened away immediately. This list is totally unsuitable for user support.
--Jean
On 23/08/2011, at 19:02, "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de> wrote:
> Wasn't there consensus to wait for new mailing lists until there is really a need to split up the things?
>
> When we would follow this way, then we have to wait until the messages on ooo-dev@ from normal users grow up too much.
>
> Otherwise we would create a mailing list for (currently) nobody. ;-)
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> Am 08/23/2011 01:46 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>>
>> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
>>
>> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>>
>> Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 4:09 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>
>>> Am 08/23/2011 12:50 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>>>>
>>>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Am 08/22/2011 11:45 PM, schrieb Andy Brown:
>>>>>> Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>>> @all:
>>>>>>> If there is somewhere else a place that should be updated (and I've
>>>>>>> write access) please let me know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have access, maybe on the mailing list page on the OOo site [1]
>>>>>> or [2]. If not then post a message to the list that your on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://support.openoffice.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, for the support area I haven't write access. However, it would be sufficient to delete the "Users Mail List" row and to keep the "General OOo Mail Lists" row as it points already to the modified webpage.
>>>>
>>>> We are acting a little quickly.
>>>
>>> Really? ;-)
>>> The ooo-dev@ mailing list is present since months. For the same long time the old MLs have lost a lot of users/posts.
>>>
>>>> Shouldn't we have an ooo-users@incubator.apache.org before we delete the Users Mail List on the OOo site?
>>>
>>> The data is still there. It's just the collected link list that is no longer present/visible.
>>>
>>>>>> [2] http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there something else that needs to be changed? Normally it should be fine already. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> The old version is carefully hidden here [3]
>>>>
>>>> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/www/mail_list.html
>>>>
>>>> Until we move the users@ooo list I think that needs to be added back to [2] and then [2] checked into to [3].
>>>
>>> But until this all isn't live it won't help to bring over the possible new dev's. I think it's OK to start now to point to the new mailing list(s).
>>>
>>>> BTW - Creating the support area is one of the next items in the podling site. [4]
>>>>
>>>> [4] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/support/
>>>
>>> Marcus
Re: users@openoffice.org [Was: Re: [Discussion] dev@openoffice.org]
Posted by "Marcus (OOo)" <ma...@wtnet.de>.
Wasn't there consensus to wait for new mailing lists until there is
really a need to split up the things?
When we would follow this way, then we have to wait until the messages
on ooo-dev@ from normal users grow up too much.
Otherwise we would create a mailing list for (currently) nobody. ;-)
Marcus
Am 08/23/2011 01:46 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
> The changes are good at showing where we are as developers.
>
> The unfortunate point is that users@openoffice.org is still a functional list with several posts in a day and the change is hiding that list.
>
> Until there is ooo-users@i.a.o we shouldn't hide users@ooo.
>
> Does anyone think we should wait to create ooo-users?
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> On Aug 22, 2011, at 4:09 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>
>> Am 08/23/2011 12:50 AM, schrieb Dave Fisher:
>>>
>>> On Aug 22, 2011, at 3:38 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 08/22/2011 11:45 PM, schrieb Andy Brown:
>>>>> Marcus (OOo) wrote:
>>>>>> @all:
>>>>>> If there is somewhere else a place that should be updated (and I've
>>>>>> write access) please let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marcus
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have access, maybe on the mailing list page on the OOo site [1]
>>>>> or [2]. If not then post a message to the list that your on.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://support.openoffice.org/
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, for the support area I haven't write access. However, it would be sufficient to delete the "Users Mail List" row and to keep the "General OOo Mail Lists" row as it points already to the modified webpage.
>>>
>>> We are acting a little quickly.
>>
>> Really? ;-)
>> The ooo-dev@ mailing list is present since months. For the same long time the old MLs have lost a lot of users/posts.
>>
>>> Shouldn't we have an ooo-users@incubator.apache.org before we delete the Users Mail List on the OOo site?
>>
>> The data is still there. It's just the collected link list that is no longer present/visible.
>>
>>>>> [2] http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html
>>>>
>>>> Is there something else that needs to be changed? Normally it should be fine already. ;-)
>>>
>>> The old version is carefully hidden here [3]
>>>
>>> [3] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/www/mail_list.html
>>>
>>> Until we move the users@ooo list I think that needs to be added back to [2] and then [2] checked into to [3].
>>
>> But until this all isn't live it won't help to bring over the possible new dev's. I think it's OK to start now to point to the new mailing list(s).
>>
>>> BTW - Creating the support area is one of the next items in the podling site. [4]
>>>
>>> [4] http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/support/
>>
>> Marcus