You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com> on 2005/03/16 01:09:34 UTC
Prepping for Derby graduation vote
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Considering the recent discussion about diverse communities
and such, this may appear ill-timed. However..
I'd like to open the discussion about Derby graduating from the
incubator. The project has accomplished all of its stated
goals save for the acquisition of several additional committers.
I attest that the project is being operated according to the
Apache guidelines and method, and that the community has
adopted them and taken them to heart.
Since Derby isn't heading for a TLP position (unless someone
wants to open that particular ball for some reason), I think
they've demonstrated the viability and sustainability. I
would support its graduation IFF the DB project took on, as a
specific priority, building the developer base. (I.e., taking
an active role in the project and not just accepting Derby and
letting it continue as it has.)
Does anyone think this discussion is premature?
- --
#ken P-)}
Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
"Millennium hand and shrimp!"
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
iQCVAwUBQjd4xJrNPMCpn3XdAQFFVwP/XtafSzOx8yzQbXk5atN9SXjcREBPSbdn
bzz+jpV+xNCiMGeH9cyNj1c8lLf2wBuPAfA/Py9QTBpt6lodo6MhvdHCGFmSiQWF
EKfnle5ScycsLFCr+AlcCrf1Ejzc1dIuWwqhNFSZ5mV/NR5ees5aC5iQVfJ6uF1x
hVnZRY8pyxU=
=71W7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by Alex Karasulu <ao...@bellsouth.net>.
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>I'd like to open the discussion about Derby graduating from the
>incubator. The project has accomplished all of its stated
>goals save for the acquisition of several additional committers.
>I attest that the project is being operated according to the
>Apache guidelines and method, and that the community has
>adopted them and taken them to heart.
>
>
Yes they are trying and are aligned with the Apache way. I'm confident
they will attract more of a diverse community over time. And as you say
they are not going to be a TLP immediately so they have the support and
experience of the DB PMC.
I myself have been looking at Derby especially where I could potentially
get involved. Derby is very mature and has everything I already need in
an embedded RDBMS. Sometimes it is difficult to attract new committers
when the product is this complete. Mature OS projects usually have a
greater user to committer ratio. Perhaps if it had issues that required
more of an itch to scratch the flux of new committers would be greater.
It's time for graduation. The user community is awaiting an Apache
Derby release outside of the incubator. Over time, a fraction of the
user community will undoubtedly merge into the committer community.
Futhermore Geronimo uses Derby, and the Directory project is interested
in experimenting with backends based on Derby. The cross project
interest is there and that will help grow the committer base.
<snip/>
>Does anyone think this discussion is premature?
>
>
Not at all ... speaking for myself I'm eagerly awaiting the discussion.
-- Alex
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>.
Correct, Jeremy is the only non-IBM committer.
-Brian
On Mar 30, 2005, at 10:28 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Cliff Schmidt wrote:
>
>> Doesn't Derby have at least three independent committers?
>> There's Jeremy and the IBM folks...who's the other one?
>
> As far as I know, Jeremy is the only non-IBM Committer to Derby.
>
> --- Noel
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> Doesn't Derby have at least three independent committers?
> There's Jeremy and the IBM folks...who's the other one?
As far as I know, Jeremy is the only non-IBM Committer to Derby.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:44:40 -0500, Noel J. Bergman <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> > the committer diversity issue has been raised as an issue by
> > at least a couple folks. While it looks like they meet the
> > requirement to have committers from at least three independent
> > organizations (I believe Noel and Jeremy are the two who are
> > independent from IBM)
>
> I'm not a Derby Committer.
Oh -- my mistake. Doesn't Derby have at least three independent
committers? There's Jeremy and the IBM folks...who's the other one?
Cliff
> > If a single vendor/individual was to drop their contribution
> > for some reason, is there sufficient independent community to
> > continue the project?
>
> A fair question that needs answering.
>
> --- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
RE: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> the committer diversity issue has been raised as an issue by
> at least a couple folks. While it looks like they meet the
> requirement to have committers from at least three independent
> organizations (I believe Noel and Jeremy are the two who are
> independent from IBM)
I'm not a Derby Committer.
> If a single vendor/individual was to drop their contribution
> for some reason, is there sufficient independent community to
> continue the project?
A fair question that needs answering.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Is graduation subject to veto?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
At 04:44 AM 3/30/2005, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
> > Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
>
>Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
>recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation. Yes, it is a policy
>decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
>Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
I always thought it was a veto type decision. However, since you brought up
the issue, a 2/3 or even 3/4 majority seem appropriate me.
--- Noel
--
Ceki Gülcü
The complete log4j manual: http://www.qos.ch/log4j/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Is graduation subject to veto?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
vetos must be justified... An unjustified veto is
worthless.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Is graduation subject to veto?
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
> On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
>> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>>
>>> Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
>>
>> Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
>> recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation. Yes, it is a policy
>> decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
>> Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
>
> I tend to agree. If someone feels strongly enough to veto a
> graduation, we should address it. As Noel implied, we
> could consider graduation as a sort of major league code
> patch :)
If you want to object any code on a technical basis, feel free.
I, however, would rather a graduation be viewed as akin to a release.
What I am most afraid of is for somebody to use a veto as a tool to
squelch what they view as a "competing" project.
Concrete examples: there was once some (unfounded) concern that I would
veto and or lobby against the establishment of the Maven project. More
to the point: there have been attempts within the general Avalon
community to squash another groups efforts.
Look at how we approve projects within the board. We generally look for
the existance of a healthy community firmly anchored by a code base, and
then we approve it by a majority vote. Votes are rarely close: we
either overwhelmingly approve it, otherwise we generally conclude that
perhaps this month is not quite the right time to move forward with this
particular resolution. Often this is because one of us has some
actionable concerns, and others on the board echo and respect those
concerns. We rarely disapprove outright - preferring to leave the door
open.
It appears that this the spirit in which Roy expressed his -1. Since
Roy's comments appear thoughtful, constructive, and actionable, I will
echo his -1 for the moment.
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Is graduation subject to veto?
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Mar 29, 2005, at 9:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
>> Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
>
> Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
> recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation. Yes, it is a policy
> decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
> Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
>
I tend to agree. If someone feels strongly enough to veto a
graduation, we should address it. As Noel implied, we
could consider graduation as a sort of major league code
patch :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Is graduation subject to veto?
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> Roy T. Fielding wrote:
>
>
>>Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
>
>
> Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
> recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation. Yes, it is a policy
> decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
> Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
>
There are some graduation criteria, such as licensing or IP issues, that
are clearly objective and for those a veto option would be appropriate.
I would trust, though, that we would never obtain concensus should any
such issue exist.
Other criteria, for example the diversity of the community, are more
subjective. Simple consensus seems more appropriate.
Citing the recent Derby discussion, Roy voted against with clear issues
that have been resolved; however, the issue with community is far muddier.
--
Jeremy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Is graduation subject to veto?
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
> Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
I'd rather then have an escalation onto a higher bar (sush as a 2/3) or
some deferal to board/members at the next general assembly. A petition (or
some backed veto) could be the trigger for this (which would set the bar
for escalation lowish) but should not an instrument by itself.
Dw
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Is graduation subject to veto?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
> Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
Actually, althought it has never been necessary to address so far, I do
recall discussion of a -1 veto option graduation. Yes, it is a policy
decision, but it effects importing code under the auspices of the
Foundation, and it isn't unreasonable to have a higher bar.
--- Noel
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@gbiv.com>.
> There are more important issues with graduation as Roy just pointed
> out with his veto. I think once these technicalities are settled this
> project is ready.
Er, just a vote -- there is no veto for this type of decision.
I will change my vote to +1 as soon as the documentation is fixed.
....Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by Alex Karasulu <ao...@bellsouth.net>.
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
>It sounds like people involved with the project are happy with the
>user community and the process being followed by the Derby committers,
>and it's great they've added a committer since starting Incubation.
>
>However, the committer diversity issue has been raised as an issue by
>at least a couple folks. While it looks like they meet the
>requirement to have committers from at least three independent
>organizations (I believe Noel and Jeremy are the two who are
>independent from IBM), the other question that has been asked of
>projects requesting graduation is:
>
>If a single vendor/individual was to drop their contribution for some
>reason, is there sufficient independent community to continue the
>project?
>
>
<snip/>
Derby is a special case IMO. Unlike most incubating projects with
developing codebases it is stable, and immediately usable. Users will
flock to it rapidly. Although counter intuitive I think IBM committers
should backoff a bit and stop fixing bugs or adding new features for
some reasonable period of time. The source is out there. People will
try to "scratch that itch" but they need a chance to do that.
Committers should wait for perspective committers to approach them with
a patch. They should be there to review patches on issues, applying
them if they are sound while coaching contributors. Eventually the
committer base will develope but not without some pain. If the current
committers from IBM do too good of a job then this will prevent others
from submitting patches and getting involved.
Furthermore, IMHO doubt IBM is going to abandon such a generous donation
to the ASF.
There are more important issues with graduation as Roy just pointed out
with his veto. I think once these technicalities are settled this
project is ready. The DB PMC must then deal with growing the committer
base and there's no doubt about this; their tactics to do so are the
only things that remain unknown.
Alex
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
> It sounds like people involved with the project are happy with the
> user community and the process being followed by the Derby committers,
> and it's great they've added a committer since starting Incubation.
>
> However, the committer diversity issue has been raised as an issue by
> at least a couple folks. While it looks like they meet the
> requirement to have committers from at least three independent
> organizations (I believe Noel and Jeremy are the two who are
> independent from IBM), the other question that has been asked of
> projects requesting graduation is:
>
> If a single vendor/individual was to drop their contribution for some
> reason, is there sufficient independent community to continue the
> project?
>
I am absolutely certain that if any single person was to leave right now
then there would be little impact (although they would be missed :-)
I believe that if IBM were to re-allocate resources but allow people to
work on their own time then there would be some impact but things would
continue. There is enough enthusiasm in the community that I believe
people work on this because they want to not just because it's a job.
If IBM were to stop their people working on it all together (and if they
are able to) then it would be very disruptive given most of the
technical internal knowledge and history is in the people. With the size
of the codebase and the complexity of the technology that situation is
going to remain for quite some time. Given the ongoing support by IBM,
both in people and in technical resources (e.g. test suites, the network
driver, and such), there is no indication at all that this will happen;
in fact quite the opposite.
In short, I believe there is enough independent community around the
project already that it will continue, combined with a stated objective
to grow that community as fast as practical.
--
Jeremy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by Cliff Schmidt <cl...@gmail.com>.
It sounds like people involved with the project are happy with the
user community and the process being followed by the Derby committers,
and it's great they've added a committer since starting Incubation.
However, the committer diversity issue has been raised as an issue by
at least a couple folks. While it looks like they meet the
requirement to have committers from at least three independent
organizations (I believe Noel and Jeremy are the two who are
independent from IBM), the other question that has been asked of
projects requesting graduation is:
If a single vendor/individual was to drop their contribution for some
reason, is there sufficient independent community to continue the
project?
Cliff
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 08:42:53 -0800, Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org> wrote:
> As that one committer I am also comfortable discussing this.
>
> The user community is growing continuously and is very diverse. The
> developer community, while not as diverse as we would like, has
> demonstrated that it is following its charter (found at
> http://incubator.apache.org/derby/ ), is operating independently of the
> main employer, and is following Apache guidelines and method.
>
> The committers have already committed (sorry) to growing the developer
> base and have discussed approaches that will encourage that. I would be
> willing to commit to the I-PMC and/or DB-PMC that we will continue that
> process after leaving the incubator.
>
> I would also point out that the number of database-internals wonks with
> the time or even the contractual ability to work on an open source
> database project is limited; for example, anyone with hard-core SQL
> query optimization experience is probably employed by a vendor somewhere.
>
> To overcome this, we are reexamining the roadmap so that there is less
> focus on database internals and more on integration and management. How
> this plays out will depend on the user community and what they want to
> see implemented, and the diversity there can only help. There are
> several people actively contributing already and I expect to see more as
> time goes on.
>
> I do not think that the Derby community is ready at this time to become
> a TLP. However, I do believe we should discuss leaving the incubator
> heading for the DB project.
>
> --
> Jeremy
>
>
> Brian McCallister wrote:
> > DB PMC Hat On: I'm quite comfortable discussing this.
> >
> > One committer has been added while in incubation, and there are a couple
> > more people under consideration. The user and developer community has
> > grown, even if the committer distribution is worrisome. Very much worth
> > talking about, though!
> >
> > -Brian
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2005, at 7:09 PM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> >
> > Considering the recent discussion about diverse communities
> > and such, this may appear ill-timed. However..
> >
> > I'd like to open the discussion about Derby graduating from the
> > incubator. The project has accomplished all of its stated
> > goals save for the acquisition of several additional committers.
> > I attest that the project is being operated according to the
> > Apache guidelines and method, and that the community has
> > adopted them and taken them to heart.
> >
> > Since Derby isn't heading for a TLP position (unless someone
> > wants to open that particular ball for some reason), I think
> > they've demonstrated the viability and sustainability. I
> > would support its graduation IFF the DB project took on, as a
> > specific priority, building the developer base. (I.e., taking
> > an active role in the project and not just accepting Derby and
> > letting it continue as it has.)
> >
> > Does anyone think this discussion is premature?
> > --
> > #ken P-)}
> >
> > Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
> > Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
> >
> > "Millennium hand and shrimp!"
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>.
As that one committer I am also comfortable discussing this.
The user community is growing continuously and is very diverse. The
developer community, while not as diverse as we would like, has
demonstrated that it is following its charter (found at
http://incubator.apache.org/derby/ ), is operating independently of the
main employer, and is following Apache guidelines and method.
The committers have already committed (sorry) to growing the developer
base and have discussed approaches that will encourage that. I would be
willing to commit to the I-PMC and/or DB-PMC that we will continue that
process after leaving the incubator.
I would also point out that the number of database-internals wonks with
the time or even the contractual ability to work on an open source
database project is limited; for example, anyone with hard-core SQL
query optimization experience is probably employed by a vendor somewhere.
To overcome this, we are reexamining the roadmap so that there is less
focus on database internals and more on integration and management. How
this plays out will depend on the user community and what they want to
see implemented, and the diversity there can only help. There are
several people actively contributing already and I expect to see more as
time goes on.
I do not think that the Derby community is ready at this time to become
a TLP. However, I do believe we should discuss leaving the incubator
heading for the DB project.
--
Jeremy
Brian McCallister wrote:
> DB PMC Hat On: I'm quite comfortable discussing this.
>
> One committer has been added while in incubation, and there are a couple
> more people under consideration. The user and developer community has
> grown, even if the committer distribution is worrisome. Very much worth
> talking about, though!
>
> -Brian
>
> On Mar 15, 2005, at 7:09 PM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
>
> Considering the recent discussion about diverse communities
> and such, this may appear ill-timed. However..
>
> I'd like to open the discussion about Derby graduating from the
> incubator. The project has accomplished all of its stated
> goals save for the acquisition of several additional committers.
> I attest that the project is being operated according to the
> Apache guidelines and method, and that the community has
> adopted them and taken them to heart.
>
> Since Derby isn't heading for a TLP position (unless someone
> wants to open that particular ball for some reason), I think
> they've demonstrated the viability and sustainability. I
> would support its graduation IFF the DB project took on, as a
> specific priority, building the developer base. (I.e., taking
> an active role in the project and not just accepting Derby and
> letting it continue as it has.)
>
> Does anyone think this discussion is premature?
> --
> #ken P-)}
>
> Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
> Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
>
> "Millennium hand and shrimp!"
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
Re: Prepping for Derby graduation vote
Posted by Brian McCallister <br...@apache.org>.
DB PMC Hat On: I'm quite comfortable discussing this.
One committer has been added while in incubation, and there are a
couple more people under consideration. The user and developer
community has grown, even if the committer distribution is worrisome.
Very much worth talking about, though!
-Brian
On Mar 15, 2005, at 7:09 PM, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Considering the recent discussion about diverse communities
> and such, this may appear ill-timed. However..
>
> I'd like to open the discussion about Derby graduating from the
> incubator. The project has accomplished all of its stated
> goals save for the acquisition of several additional committers.
> I attest that the project is being operated according to the
> Apache guidelines and method, and that the community has
> adopted them and taken them to heart.
>
> Since Derby isn't heading for a TLP position (unless someone
> wants to open that particular ball for some reason), I think
> they've demonstrated the viability and sustainability. I
> would support its graduation IFF the DB project took on, as a
> specific priority, building the developer base. (I.e., taking
> an active role in the project and not just accepting Derby and
> letting it continue as it has.)
>
> Does anyone think this discussion is premature?
> - --
> #ken P-)}
>
> Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/
> Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/
>
> "Millennium hand and shrimp!"
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iQCVAwUBQjd4xJrNPMCpn3XdAQFFVwP/XtafSzOx8yzQbXk5atN9SXjcREBPSbdn
> bzz+jpV+xNCiMGeH9cyNj1c8lLf2wBuPAfA/Py9QTBpt6lodo6MhvdHCGFmSiQWF
> EKfnle5ScycsLFCr+AlcCrf1Ejzc1dIuWwqhNFSZ5mV/NR5ees5aC5iQVfJ6uF1x
> hVnZRY8pyxU=
> =71W7
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org