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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by "Garner, Shawn" <sh...@pearson.com> on 2006/02/20 20:10:38 UTC
[OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Can anyone give me pros and cons of using Ruby on Rails verses a Java Base
Web Application (Struts, JSF, etc)?
Seems like Rails is moving towards less or no configuration files while
JSF/Shale is leaning towards more.
Shawn
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Re: yet wnother localization question
Posted by Laurie Harper <la...@holoweb.net>.
Firstly, you really shouldn't post a totally unrelated question in the
middle of a long, off-topic thread that's likely not being followed by
everyone. Post a new topic as a new message, not a reply to something else.
Now, to the question:
Daniel Blumenthal wrote:
> So, I'm in the midst of localizing my app, and the first thing that's clear
> is that localizing the MessageResources is a snap (pats self on back for
> choosing Struts).
>
> My question, though, is whether there's a standard method for choosing one
> ..jsp or another based on language. Also, is there a standard directory
> layout? My guess is that something like this would be indicated:
>
> /myservlet
> /pages
> /en
> /jp
> /fr
>
> Is there a simple way of making this happen (with this or some other
> directory structure), or do I have to roll my own solution?
Tiles supports doing this. You can set up your base tile definitions,
then add per-locale definitions that override the path to the JSP.
Unless you have substantially different page requirements for each
locale, you'll probably want to look at factoring out just those parts
of each page that need to vary into separate tiles, too, to reduce the
amount of duplication.
L.
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> Very interesting numbers, please allow me a question, you have only 43
> lines of java code in your application, but 1107 lines ruby code...
> but are talking about smaller code base with ror? :-)
>
Forgot to mention.
The developers that preceded me put all their code in JSP files rather
than Java source files.
The TEM files are what we would normally put in JSP files, so they have
a combination of HTML, SHTML, and TEM. If you add the Java and JSP
counts it will be more accurate, again remembering that there's quite a
bit more functionality in the RoR version from both the test and
dynamic-content admin points of view.
Dave
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
Very interesting numbers, please allow me a question, you have only 43
lines of java code in your application, but 1107 lines ruby code...
but are talking about smaller code base with ror? :-)
leon
On 2/21/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> > A pretty simple document management system, for a small intranet, I'm
> > sure a typical application. It contains view and edit interfaces,
> > in the edit interface you can manage document vendors, document type
> > (like manual, presentation, advertisement material and so), and you
> > can upload document and assign properties to it: the type of the
> > document, the vendor of the document and some description. The access
> > is limited to restricted users.
> >
> If I have time in the next day or two I'll just do it and see. Without
> making the UI pretty I'd say we're talking 15-30 minutes, but that's
> assuming you don't have user access code that already exists.
>
> The unit and functional tests that RoR creates for you would not fully
> exercise the system; if you added on another 30 minutes you could have
> very broad coverage.
> > In the view interface you are able to select documents by type, or
> > vendor or type and vendor, or get the full list. The view interface
> > can be seen under http://www2.anotheria.net/konet/cms/showPage?
> >
> The view side would take longer because I don't know Russian ;)
>
> The search part by itself would be about 5-10 minutes.
>
> http://www.italiannewjersey.com/ is a site that I _re_wrote using RoR as
> an experiment. I duplicated and extended the functionality in under 4
> hours, including reproducing the style/layout/etc. and breaking up the
> presentation side into more manageable chunks. (RoR has "custom tags"
> but they're called "partials", as in a "partial template". Using them in
> an RHTML (our JSP) is still inside a scriptlet :(
>
> The vast majority of my time (about 3 hrs) was spent within the view
> side, as the source HTML was really crappy. Also, I had a working
> implementation to code from; if I had done it from scratch the view side
> would have taken me much longer as I really suck at design.
>
> There are some sections to the site that are not dynamic that should be;
> as an experiment I converted one static section to being dynamic and it
> took approximately 10 minutes without unit/functional tests.
>
> Also, it was my first "real" RoR application; a more knowledgeable RoR
> person would probably have been quicker. I am _far_ from an expert at
> RoR, but I get by.
>
> I've attempted to append a chunk of a comparison spreadsheet I made up;
> I doubt the formatting will work well so I apologize in advance.
>
> Caveats:
> - The J2EE version uses some weird older stuff the original app
> designers used, so the numbers may be inflated about 2-5%
> - The J2EE version includes no unit or functional tests; the RoR version
> has minimal tests (I have numbers for both)
> - The J2EE JavaScript includes a complete WYSIWIG HTML editor, the RoR
> version includes the complete prototype.js library which is not used.
> - The RoR version includes functionality not present in the J2EE
> version: three static sections were converted to dynamic (including the
> admin side) and there are more games being played with dynamic content
> inside the pages.
>
> HTH,
> Dave
>
>
>
> Lines Words Chars
> J2EE
> JSP 1775 6205 59142
> JAVA 43 123 1561
> HTM 106 413 4715
> SHTML 1703 8305 93937
> TEM 718 2201 28420
> XML 17 26 619
> JS 4868 17325 161706
> Total 9230 34598 350100
> Total-JS 4362 17273 188394
>
>
>
>
> RoR
> RB 1107 2884 28196
> RHTML 998 4440 44158
> YML 40 107 927
> JS 3958 10851 126538
> Total 6103 18282 199819
> Total-JS 2145 7431 73281
> Total-JS-Test 1600 6182 60130
> Total-JS-Test-Helpers 1579 6137 59743
>
>
>
>
> RoR % of J2EE (All) 66% 53% 57%
> RoR % of J2EE (Just App) 36% 36% 32%
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> A pretty simple document management system, for a small intranet, I'm
> sure a typical application. It contains view and edit interfaces,
> in the edit interface you can manage document vendors, document type
> (like manual, presentation, advertisement material and so), and you
> can upload document and assign properties to it: the type of the
> document, the vendor of the document and some description. The access
> is limited to restricted users.
>
If I have time in the next day or two I'll just do it and see. Without
making the UI pretty I'd say we're talking 15-30 minutes, but that's
assuming you don't have user access code that already exists.
The unit and functional tests that RoR creates for you would not fully
exercise the system; if you added on another 30 minutes you could have
very broad coverage.
> In the view interface you are able to select documents by type, or
> vendor or type and vendor, or get the full list. The view interface
> can be seen under http://www2.anotheria.net/konet/cms/showPage?
>
The view side would take longer because I don't know Russian ;)
The search part by itself would be about 5-10 minutes.
http://www.italiannewjersey.com/ is a site that I _re_wrote using RoR as
an experiment. I duplicated and extended the functionality in under 4
hours, including reproducing the style/layout/etc. and breaking up the
presentation side into more manageable chunks. (RoR has "custom tags"
but they're called "partials", as in a "partial template". Using them in
an RHTML (our JSP) is still inside a scriptlet :(
The vast majority of my time (about 3 hrs) was spent within the view
side, as the source HTML was really crappy. Also, I had a working
implementation to code from; if I had done it from scratch the view side
would have taken me much longer as I really suck at design.
There are some sections to the site that are not dynamic that should be;
as an experiment I converted one static section to being dynamic and it
took approximately 10 minutes without unit/functional tests.
Also, it was my first "real" RoR application; a more knowledgeable RoR
person would probably have been quicker. I am _far_ from an expert at
RoR, but I get by.
I've attempted to append a chunk of a comparison spreadsheet I made up;
I doubt the formatting will work well so I apologize in advance.
Caveats:
- The J2EE version uses some weird older stuff the original app
designers used, so the numbers may be inflated about 2-5%
- The J2EE version includes no unit or functional tests; the RoR version
has minimal tests (I have numbers for both)
- The J2EE JavaScript includes a complete WYSIWIG HTML editor, the RoR
version includes the complete prototype.js library which is not used.
- The RoR version includes functionality not present in the J2EE
version: three static sections were converted to dynamic (including the
admin side) and there are more games being played with dynamic content
inside the pages.
HTH,
Dave
Lines Words Chars
J2EE
JSP 1775 6205 59142
JAVA 43 123 1561
HTM 106 413 4715
SHTML 1703 8305 93937
TEM 718 2201 28420
XML 17 26 619
JS 4868 17325 161706
Total 9230 34598 350100
Total-JS 4362 17273 188394
RoR
RB 1107 2884 28196
RHTML 998 4440 44158
YML 40 107 927
JS 3958 10851 126538
Total 6103 18282 199819
Total-JS 2145 7431 73281
Total-JS-Test 1600 6182 60130
Total-JS-Test-Helpers 1579 6137 59743
RoR % of J2EE (All) 66% 53% 57%
RoR % of J2EE (Just App) 36% 36% 32%
Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
Dave,
Sorry for bothering you again, but can we go it through on an example?
Lets assume I hava a very small website to build (I actually did that
one, so I know the real effort and duration).
A pretty simple document management system, for a small intranet, I'm
sure a typical application. It contains view and edit interfaces,
in the edit interface you can manage document vendors, document type
(like manual, presentation, advertisement material and so), and you
can upload document and assign properties to it: the type of the
document, the vendor of the document and some description. The access
is limited to restricted users.
In the view interface you are able to select documents by type, or
vendor or type and vendor, or get the full list. The view interface
can be seen under http://www2.anotheria.net/konet/cms/showPage?
Can you give me an estimation how long would it be to program this in
java and ruby? The app is for very small number of customers, so
scaleability is not a requirement, files and data are stored in the
file system.
Maybe with real estimations I would be able to understand the benefits :-)
thanx for your time
regards
Leon
On 2/21/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> > I rather ment things like interception/reflection or/and AOP :-)
> >
> Ah.
>
> Lots of reflection. AOP is being actively discussed for Ruby2. Pure-Ruby
> implementations for simple AOP exist but I've not used them.
> > Pardon me for being devils advocate, but how do you measure it?
> > Talking about the codebase, are you talking about functional code or
> > whole code? I agree that 20-30% of java code is dump (getters/setters
> > and so on) but dump code is generated by an IDE so it's not an issue.
> > How fast are "fast" development cycles?
> >
> Well, I have measured things in various ways.
>
> Codebase size: yep, my IDE will generate a lot, and this makes Java
> bearable. But the code is still there; just because I don't type it
> doesn't mean I don't have to comprehend it. Character-wise my Ruby/RoR
> code is about 1/3-1/2 the size of feature-comparable J2EE apps. That's a
> lot less "stuff" I have to look at even if it was auto-generated.
>
> Development time: I've coded both J2EE=>RoR and RoR=>J2EE. I've coded
> just RoR and just J2EE apps. It usually takes me about 1/2 the time to
> code an RoR application, but that's just an average.
>
> If I was more adept with AppFuse (or Trails, I still don't remember
> which is which) I suspect the timing would be more similar.
> > As far as I understand you have no strong typing, right?
> >
> That is correct at this point. Obviously you can check types within a
> method.
>
> Dynamic- vs. strong-typing is one of those arguments that has gone, and
> will go, on forever.
>
> I think strong typing is great for large, distributed teams of generally
> average programmers. I think dynamic typing is great for smaller,
> "better" development teams, and compiler optimization. For instance, in
> Common Lisp I'll often write stuff with no thought of typing then as
> development progresses I'll add typing info.
>
> The canonical "Languages for the Masses" vs. "Languages for Smart
> People" article is at:
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/vanlfsp.html
>
> It's somewhat deliberately provocative, but interesting.
>
> Another consideration for me, at least, is that Ruby "feels" better.
> Part of that is simply personality, part of it is that it's quite a bit
> more like what I'm used to (SmallTalk, Lisp, Forth). I have a LOT more
> fun programming in Ruby than Java. This is an intangible, but an
> important one for me.
>
> Bear in mind that I still recommend PHP for large-scale production
> sites, but I am slowly using RoR for more small-ish sites.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> I rather ment things like interception/reflection or/and AOP :-)
>
Ah.
Lots of reflection. AOP is being actively discussed for Ruby2. Pure-Ruby
implementations for simple AOP exist but I've not used them.
> Pardon me for being devils advocate, but how do you measure it?
> Talking about the codebase, are you talking about functional code or
> whole code? I agree that 20-30% of java code is dump (getters/setters
> and so on) but dump code is generated by an IDE so it's not an issue.
> How fast are "fast" development cycles?
>
Well, I have measured things in various ways.
Codebase size: yep, my IDE will generate a lot, and this makes Java
bearable. But the code is still there; just because I don't type it
doesn't mean I don't have to comprehend it. Character-wise my Ruby/RoR
code is about 1/3-1/2 the size of feature-comparable J2EE apps. That's a
lot less "stuff" I have to look at even if it was auto-generated.
Development time: I've coded both J2EE=>RoR and RoR=>J2EE. I've coded
just RoR and just J2EE apps. It usually takes me about 1/2 the time to
code an RoR application, but that's just an average.
If I was more adept with AppFuse (or Trails, I still don't remember
which is which) I suspect the timing would be more similar.
> As far as I understand you have no strong typing, right?
>
That is correct at this point. Obviously you can check types within a
method.
Dynamic- vs. strong-typing is one of those arguments that has gone, and
will go, on forever.
I think strong typing is great for large, distributed teams of generally
average programmers. I think dynamic typing is great for smaller,
"better" development teams, and compiler optimization. For instance, in
Common Lisp I'll often write stuff with no thought of typing then as
development progresses I'll add typing info.
The canonical "Languages for the Masses" vs. "Languages for Smart
People" article is at:
http://www.paulgraham.com/vanlfsp.html
It's somewhat deliberately provocative, but interesting.
Another consideration for me, at least, is that Ruby "feels" better.
Part of that is simply personality, part of it is that it's quite a bit
more like what I'm used to (SmallTalk, Lisp, Forth). I have a LOT more
fun programming in Ruby than Java. This is an intangible, but an
important one for me.
Bear in mind that I still recommend PHP for large-scale production
sites, but I am slowly using RoR for more small-ish sites.
Dave
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On 2/20/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> > well... maybe you are a totally cool development team,
> Awwww yeah.
>
> Okay, not really ;)
> > following call stacks, debugging... distribution and so on
> > would be a real mess... but, as I told before, I never tried myself.
> >
> Call stacks are no issue. If you know the API and the chain of events I
> really haven't had any problems.
I rather ment things like interception/reflection or/and AOP :-)
> > But what are the benefits for you to use ror?
> >
> _Extremely_ fast development cycles, _substantially_ smaller codebase.
> You see numbers like 10x thrown around; I wouldn't go that far, but at a
> minimum I personally see 4-8x in general and about a third the codebase.
Pardon me for being devils advocate, but how do you measure it?
Talking about the codebase, are you talking about functional code or
whole code? I agree that 20-30% of java code is dump (getters/setters
and so on) but dump code is generated by an IDE so it's not an issue.
How fast are "fast" development cycles?
>
> Code reviews are the same as in any language.
>
> Programmatic code checking in completely non-existent :(
As far as I understand you have no strong typing, right?
>
> Refactoring support essentially non-existent, although I tend to need
> less, and with the smaller codebase they are less painful.
> Dynamically-typed languages may be harder to deal with in that regard.
>
> _Completely_ moving target: stuff is happening WAY too fast to keep up with.
>
> I do quite a bit of functional prototyping in RoR and then convert to
> J2EE, which makes some of my concerns go away since I'm using it
> primarily as a specifications document rather than an implementation model.
>
> Dave
>
Leon
>
>
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yet wnother localization question
Posted by Daniel Blumenthal <da...@wordchamp.com>.
So, I'm in the midst of localizing my app, and the first thing that's clear
is that localizing the MessageResources is a snap (pats self on back for
choosing Struts).
My question, though, is whether there's a standard method for choosing one
.jsp or another based on language. Also, is there a standard directory
layout? My guess is that something like this would be indicated:
/myservlet
/pages
/en
/jp
/fr
Is there a simple way of making this happen (with this or some other
directory structure), or do I have to roll my own solution?
Thanks!
Daniel
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> well... maybe you are a totally cool development team,
Awwww yeah.
Okay, not really ;)
> following call stacks, debugging... distribution and so on
> would be a real mess... but, as I told before, I never tried myself.
>
Call stacks are no issue. If you know the API and the chain of events I
really haven't had any problems.
> But what are the benefits for you to use ror?
>
_Extremely_ fast development cycles, _substantially_ smaller codebase.
You see numbers like 10x thrown around; I wouldn't go that far, but at a
minimum I personally see 4-8x in general and about a third the codebase.
Code reviews are the same as in any language.
Programmatic code checking in completely non-existent :(
Refactoring support essentially non-existent, although I tend to need
less, and with the smaller codebase they are less painful.
Dynamically-typed languages may be harder to deal with in that regard.
_Completely_ moving target: stuff is happening WAY too fast to keep up with.
I do quite a bit of functional prototyping in RoR and then convert to
J2EE, which makes some of my concerns go away since I'm using it
primarily as a specifications document rather than an implementation model.
Dave
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
well... maybe you are a totally cool development team, maybe I'm
completely wrong either... I just had the feeling that making code
reviews, following call stacks, debugging... distribution and so on
would be a real mess... but, as I told before, I never tried myself.
But
what are the benefits for you to use ror?
leon
On 2/20/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> > On 2/20/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well RoR is a wonderful thing if you are playing. But you can't
> >>> develop and you have no chance to maintain a serious application with it.
> >>>
> >> I'm having zero issues maintaining several, although they are not
> >> high-load apps yet.
> > how many developers are/were working on each?
> >
> Most of them are a three-person team but we have one that has a Small
> Wad (about a dozen total) working in fits and starts as the mood strikes
> them, under Subversion.
>
> I'm far more concerned about scalability than anything else; we've had
> essentially zero issues related to team size. One of the apps is going
> to be converted into a Spring/J2EE stack for sure; wait-and-see on the rest.
>
> I guess I don't see what the big deal is, but we are a fairly
> disciplined group of developers, several of us with large-scale Lisp
> experience, which might help, I dunno.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> On 2/20/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
>> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
>>
>>> Well RoR is a wonderful thing if you are playing. But you can't
>>> develop and you have no chance to maintain a serious application with it.
>>>
>> I'm having zero issues maintaining several, although they are not
>> high-load apps yet.
> how many developers are/were working on each?
>
Most of them are a three-person team but we have one that has a Small
Wad (about a dozen total) working in fits and starts as the mood strikes
them, under Subversion.
I'm far more concerned about scalability than anything else; we've had
essentially zero issues related to team size. One of the apps is going
to be converted into a Spring/J2EE stack for sure; wait-and-see on the rest.
I guess I don't see what the big deal is, but we are a fairly
disciplined group of developers, several of us with large-scale Lisp
experience, which might help, I dunno.
Dave
Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
On 2/20/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> > Well RoR is a wonderful thing if you are playing. But you can't
> > develop and you have no chance to maintain a serious application with it.
> I'm having zero issues maintaining several, although they are not
> high-load apps yet.
>
how many developers are/were working on each?
Leon
> The thing I dislike most about it is moving back to scriptlets, although
> this is largely optional and there are ways around it.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> Well RoR is a wonderful thing if you are playing. But you can't
> develop and you have no chance to maintain a serious application with it.
I'm having zero issues maintaining several, although they are not
high-load apps yet.
The thing I dislike most about it is moving back to scriptlets, although
this is largely optional and there are ways around it.
Dave
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
Well RoR is a wonderful thing if you are playing. But you can't
develop and you have no chance to maintain a serious application with
it. So the proper question would be RoR or php and php would probably
win :-)
Leon
On 2/20/06, Garner, Shawn <sh...@pearson.com> wrote:
> Can anyone give me pros and cons of using Ruby on Rails verses a Java Base
> Web Application (Struts, JSF, etc)?
>
> Seems like Rails is moving towards less or no configuration files while
> JSF/Shale is leaning towards more.
>
>
>
> Shawn
>
>
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
James Mitchell wrote:
> Struts (right now!) let's you setup a single action mapping (wild card
> mapping) and a single LazyDynaBean, and then you can add as many
> Actions and JSPs as you like (at runtime no doubt) and your changes
> are instantly available without ever rebooting or touching xml again.
>
> Between that and the Spring/Hibernate/Middlegen love boat and you'll
> think twice about Rails.
The AppFuse stack is also pretty nice. AppFuse? Trails? Now I don't
remember which is which.
Dave
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Re: [OT] Ruby on rails VS Java Based Web Applications
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
Struts (right now!) let's you setup a single action mapping (wild
card mapping) and a single LazyDynaBean, and then you can add as many
Actions and JSPs as you like (at runtime no doubt) and your changes
are instantly available without ever rebooting or touching xml again.
Between that and the Spring/Hibernate/Middlegen love boat and you'll
think twice about Rails.
--
James Mitchell
EdgeTech, Inc.
http://edgetechservices.net/
678.910.8017
Skype: jmitchtx
On Feb 20, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Garner, Shawn wrote:
> Can anyone give me pros and cons of using Ruby on Rails verses a
> Java Base
> Web Application (Struts, JSF, etc)?
>
> Seems like Rails is moving towards less or no configuration files
> while
> JSF/Shale is leaning towards more.
>
>
>
> Shawn
>
>
>
>
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