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Posted to dev@pekko.apache.org by Matthew Benedict de Detrich <ma...@aiven.io.INVALID> on 2023/02/08 17:26:31 UTC
[DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
This was discussed in the Pekko ASF Slack channel, but as of now only Pekko
committers are in the Slack channel. The idea is to open this up to the
public, as I believe this would best serve the community and is also the
appropriate place for communication whose format is too "casual" for
mailing list discussion/github issues. There are TLP projects that are
already doing this, i.e. Apache Kafka.
Do note that if agreed upon, it's not possible to make the account
completely public since an existing ASF slack user needs to invite a person
to join (see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), such instructions would
be documented in the relevant places.
--
Matthew de Detrich
*Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
*m:* +491603708037
*w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
Re: [DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
By communicating via chat, you are actively excluding potential committers to the project. Not everyone is in the same time zone or can spend much time on the project. Not everyone has the time to read low informational content as chat tends to be. Unlike a mailing list, Chat is hard to search or find information in.
Kind Regards,
Justin
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Re: [DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
Posted by Matthew Benedict de Detrich <ma...@aiven.io.INVALID>.
So my whole view on this is that I agree with Seetaramayya that having a
chat channel of some sort is a net benefit. After trying to contribute to
projects that don't have an active chat channel you do end up feeling the
difference, basically a place where you can ask off the cuff questions
without expecting a reply and also general coordination which can be
considered too fine grained/detailed for a mailing list, or even github
I do see the issues that PJ Fanning mentioned, to me this is
just revealing the underlying chaos and flux the project is in. This is not
for bad reasons, but as Jean-Luc Deprez said in another email thread we are
moving at light speed and the current slack channel is reflecting that.
Ontop of that there are many more open questions and discussion
particularly around the release process, I also do imagine that this will
subside over time. This rapid pace of development between a small set of
committers will hopefully be temporary at least until we make a first
release but my point here is don't be too quick to judge the premise of a
chat channel based on the current state of affairs. I would also say that
if we didn't have the slack chat room, we would not have the current
velocity that Pekko is undergoing, certain types of communication is far
more efficient in a channel than on a mailing list/github.
The thing is, irrespective of what we decide the way the current Apache
slack is set up a user has to get invited and this already provides a nice
buffer against some of the issues being raised. I personally don't feel too
strongly about this, we can make a decision to open up the slack room after
a release when (if it occurs) development slows down, or we can invite
people transparently at our discretion if they make a post on the mailing
list stating they would like to join the chat room.
On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 2:49 PM PJ Fanning <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
> I agree with Johannes' comments. I can see Slack having a role - I'm
> just wary about opening it up to too many people.
>
> I can certainly see benefit in inviting contributors like Seetaramayya
> to the Slack channel. If I could suggest that we start with a policy
> like inviting people who have been active for a few weeks and maybe
> not yet opening up Slack invites to anyone who asks, just yet.
>
> I can do up a short page on cwiki.apache.org about the various comms
> channels and where common types of question/discussion should go. This
> will obviously have some of my own biases in it and I don't mind if
> people edit it or comment on it.
>
> On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 14:17, Johannes Rudolph
> <jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I agree we shouldn't rely on chat too heavily, it's much too easy to
> > bury information in there and it doesn't scale to more people. It's
> > nice to quickly coordinate on something or clarify some immediate
> > questions but it should never get to the point of being the reference
> > of anything. Once you see a link to slack info in Github or the
> > mailing list, it's already a smell that we don't information where it
> > belongs. It's ok to quickly discuss something and then put a
> > conclusion or state of current thinking into the right ticket or
> > mailing list discussion.
> >
> > It's a completely different question if we want a user-level chat room
> > somewhere for easy access and feedback (which needs volunteers for
> > moderation and monitoring for questions etc). Personally, nothing for
> > me but other people are better (or more tolerant) with sync
> > communication.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
Matthew de Detrich
*Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
*m:* +491603708037
*w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
Re: [DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
Posted by PJ Fanning <fa...@apache.org>.
I agree with Johannes' comments. I can see Slack having a role - I'm
just wary about opening it up to too many people.
I can certainly see benefit in inviting contributors like Seetaramayya
to the Slack channel. If I could suggest that we start with a policy
like inviting people who have been active for a few weeks and maybe
not yet opening up Slack invites to anyone who asks, just yet.
I can do up a short page on cwiki.apache.org about the various comms
channels and where common types of question/discussion should go. This
will obviously have some of my own biases in it and I don't mind if
people edit it or comment on it.
On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 14:17, Johannes Rudolph
<jo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I agree we shouldn't rely on chat too heavily, it's much too easy to
> bury information in there and it doesn't scale to more people. It's
> nice to quickly coordinate on something or clarify some immediate
> questions but it should never get to the point of being the reference
> of anything. Once you see a link to slack info in Github or the
> mailing list, it's already a smell that we don't information where it
> belongs. It's ok to quickly discuss something and then put a
> conclusion or state of current thinking into the right ticket or
> mailing list discussion.
>
> It's a completely different question if we want a user-level chat room
> somewhere for easy access and feedback (which needs volunteers for
> moderation and monitoring for questions etc). Personally, nothing for
> me but other people are better (or more tolerant) with sync
> communication.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
Posted by Johannes Rudolph <jo...@gmail.com>.
I agree we shouldn't rely on chat too heavily, it's much too easy to
bury information in there and it doesn't scale to more people. It's
nice to quickly coordinate on something or clarify some immediate
questions but it should never get to the point of being the reference
of anything. Once you see a link to slack info in Github or the
mailing list, it's already a smell that we don't information where it
belongs. It's ok to quickly discuss something and then put a
conclusion or state of current thinking into the right ticket or
mailing list discussion.
It's a completely different question if we want a user-level chat room
somewhere for easy access and feedback (which needs volunteers for
moderation and monitoring for questions etc). Personally, nothing for
me but other people are better (or more tolerant) with sync
communication.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
Posted by PJ Fanning <fa...@gmail.com>.
Just to respond to examples:
* if you want a build for a PR, comment on the PR - we get emails and
Github notifications for these comments - why cross post onto Slack?
* if you think we are missing docs, raise a Github issue or start a
Github discussion - messages in Slack are lost in a forest of other
messages, while discussions about Github issue or a Github discussion
will be grouped on this issue/discussion
* Pekko is a volunteer project - there is no guarantee that someone is
online on Slack at a given time - I rarely check Slack because I'm
bombarded with emails and Github notifications already
* we have to explicitly invite people to Slack - so we can have a
comedic interaction where someone pings to be added to Slack, a
volunteer has to add them to Slack, then that new user posts something
that should really be posted onto a PR (for example) - so they then
need to go to the PR and comment there
* we do need a communication FAQ which highlights where different
types of question should go
On Thu, 9 Feb 2023 at 11:51, seetaramayya vadali <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I understand that there are too many places to monitor but I don't see a
> quick way of communication (such as slack or gitter). For example, I would
> like to request someone to retrigger the build.
>
> Another scenario, once the community starts adopting pekko then they might
> have questions that are not addressed in docs (or a person overlooked the
> docs). How can they approach for help?
>
> As a user / contributor, I feel a slack or gitter kind of communication is
> needed but at the same time (from mainter point of view) I see the pain of
> multiple ways of communication.
>
> Just added my thought
>
> Regards,
> Seeta
>
> On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 8:32 AM Claude Warren, Jr
> <cl...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
>
> > I have to agree with PJ. I think we should try to limit the discussion
> > areas to as few as possible so that we don't miss questions. There are
> > already lots of places for discussion, adding one more feels like just
> > adding to the noise.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:25 PM PJ Fanning <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > > My preference is not to use Slack this way
> > >
> > > * it's already hard to keep track of conversations that flit between the
> > > mailing lists, Github issues, Github PRs, Github Discussions - and Slack
> > > adds another place
> > > * All ASF discussions should be public (with a small number of
> > exceptions)
> > > and Slack is still closed unless we invite people - and only a finite
> > > number of people will be invited
> > > * with Github, we have integrations copying conversations to ASF mailing
> > > lists - we don't have this for Slack - see
> > > https://lists.apache.org/list.html?notifications@pekko.apache.org
> > > * it is important for the conversations to be archived in ASF locations
> > > because Github and Slack may choose to close down access to ASF and our
> > > users at a time of their choosing in the future and ASF needs to have a
> > > record of these discussions on our own managed resources (eg ASF mailing
> > > lists)
> > >
> > > On 2023/02/08 17:26:31 Matthew Benedict de Detrich wrote:
> > > > This was discussed in the Pekko ASF Slack channel, but as of now only
> > > Pekko
> > > > committers are in the Slack channel. The idea is to open this up to the
> > > > public, as I believe this would best serve the community and is also
> > the
> > > > appropriate place for communication whose format is too "casual" for
> > > > mailing list discussion/github issues. There are TLP projects that are
> > > > already doing this, i.e. Apache Kafka.
> > > >
> > > > Do note that if agreed upon, it's not possible to make the account
> > > > completely public since an existing ASF slack user needs to invite a
> > > person
> > > > to join (see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), such instructions
> > > would
> > > > be documented in the relevant places.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Matthew de Detrich
> > > >
> > > > *Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
> > > >
> > > > Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
> > > >
> > > > Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
> > > >
> > > > Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
> > > >
> > > > *m:* +491603708037
> > > >
> > > > *w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> Seeta Ramayya Vadali
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Re: [DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
Posted by seetaramayya vadali <sr...@gmail.com>.
I understand that there are too many places to monitor but I don't see a
quick way of communication (such as slack or gitter). For example, I would
like to request someone to retrigger the build.
Another scenario, once the community starts adopting pekko then they might
have questions that are not addressed in docs (or a person overlooked the
docs). How can they approach for help?
As a user / contributor, I feel a slack or gitter kind of communication is
needed but at the same time (from mainter point of view) I see the pain of
multiple ways of communication.
Just added my thought
Regards,
Seeta
On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 8:32 AM Claude Warren, Jr
<cl...@aiven.io.invalid> wrote:
> I have to agree with PJ. I think we should try to limit the discussion
> areas to as few as possible so that we don't miss questions. There are
> already lots of places for discussion, adding one more feels like just
> adding to the noise.
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:25 PM PJ Fanning <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > My preference is not to use Slack this way
> >
> > * it's already hard to keep track of conversations that flit between the
> > mailing lists, Github issues, Github PRs, Github Discussions - and Slack
> > adds another place
> > * All ASF discussions should be public (with a small number of
> exceptions)
> > and Slack is still closed unless we invite people - and only a finite
> > number of people will be invited
> > * with Github, we have integrations copying conversations to ASF mailing
> > lists - we don't have this for Slack - see
> > https://lists.apache.org/list.html?notifications@pekko.apache.org
> > * it is important for the conversations to be archived in ASF locations
> > because Github and Slack may choose to close down access to ASF and our
> > users at a time of their choosing in the future and ASF needs to have a
> > record of these discussions on our own managed resources (eg ASF mailing
> > lists)
> >
> > On 2023/02/08 17:26:31 Matthew Benedict de Detrich wrote:
> > > This was discussed in the Pekko ASF Slack channel, but as of now only
> > Pekko
> > > committers are in the Slack channel. The idea is to open this up to the
> > > public, as I believe this would best serve the community and is also
> the
> > > appropriate place for communication whose format is too "casual" for
> > > mailing list discussion/github issues. There are TLP projects that are
> > > already doing this, i.e. Apache Kafka.
> > >
> > > Do note that if agreed upon, it's not possible to make the account
> > > completely public since an existing ASF slack user needs to invite a
> > person
> > > to join (see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), such instructions
> > would
> > > be documented in the relevant places.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Matthew de Detrich
> > >
> > > *Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
> > >
> > > Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
> > >
> > > Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
> > >
> > > Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
> > >
> > > *m:* +491603708037
> > >
> > > *w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
> >
> >
>
--
Regards,
Seeta Ramayya Vadali
Re: [DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
Posted by "Claude Warren, Jr" <cl...@aiven.io.INVALID>.
I have to agree with PJ. I think we should try to limit the discussion
areas to as few as possible so that we don't miss questions. There are
already lots of places for discussion, adding one more feels like just
adding to the noise.
On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 6:25 PM PJ Fanning <fa...@apache.org> wrote:
> My preference is not to use Slack this way
>
> * it's already hard to keep track of conversations that flit between the
> mailing lists, Github issues, Github PRs, Github Discussions - and Slack
> adds another place
> * All ASF discussions should be public (with a small number of exceptions)
> and Slack is still closed unless we invite people - and only a finite
> number of people will be invited
> * with Github, we have integrations copying conversations to ASF mailing
> lists - we don't have this for Slack - see
> https://lists.apache.org/list.html?notifications@pekko.apache.org
> * it is important for the conversations to be archived in ASF locations
> because Github and Slack may choose to close down access to ASF and our
> users at a time of their choosing in the future and ASF needs to have a
> record of these discussions on our own managed resources (eg ASF mailing
> lists)
>
> On 2023/02/08 17:26:31 Matthew Benedict de Detrich wrote:
> > This was discussed in the Pekko ASF Slack channel, but as of now only
> Pekko
> > committers are in the Slack channel. The idea is to open this up to the
> > public, as I believe this would best serve the community and is also the
> > appropriate place for communication whose format is too "casual" for
> > mailing list discussion/github issues. There are TLP projects that are
> > already doing this, i.e. Apache Kafka.
> >
> > Do note that if agreed upon, it's not possible to make the account
> > completely public since an existing ASF slack user needs to invite a
> person
> > to join (see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), such instructions
> would
> > be documented in the relevant places.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Matthew de Detrich
> >
> > *Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
> >
> > Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
> >
> > Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
> >
> > Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
> >
> > *m:* +491603708037
> >
> > *w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@pekko.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@pekko.apache.org
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Open up the Pekko ASF Slack channel to public
Posted by PJ Fanning <fa...@apache.org>.
My preference is not to use Slack this way
* it's already hard to keep track of conversations that flit between the mailing lists, Github issues, Github PRs, Github Discussions - and Slack adds another place
* All ASF discussions should be public (with a small number of exceptions) and Slack is still closed unless we invite people - and only a finite number of people will be invited
* with Github, we have integrations copying conversations to ASF mailing lists - we don't have this for Slack - see https://lists.apache.org/list.html?notifications@pekko.apache.org
* it is important for the conversations to be archived in ASF locations because Github and Slack may choose to close down access to ASF and our users at a time of their choosing in the future and ASF needs to have a record of these discussions on our own managed resources (eg ASF mailing lists)
On 2023/02/08 17:26:31 Matthew Benedict de Detrich wrote:
> This was discussed in the Pekko ASF Slack channel, but as of now only Pekko
> committers are in the Slack channel. The idea is to open this up to the
> public, as I believe this would best serve the community and is also the
> appropriate place for communication whose format is too "casual" for
> mailing list discussion/github issues. There are TLP projects that are
> already doing this, i.e. Apache Kafka.
>
> Do note that if agreed upon, it's not possible to make the account
> completely public since an existing ASF slack user needs to invite a person
> to join (see https://infra.apache.org/slack.html), such instructions would
> be documented in the relevant places.
>
> --
>
> Matthew de Detrich
>
> *Aiven Deutschland GmbH*
>
> Immanuelkirchstraße 26, 10405 Berlin
>
> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B
>
> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen
>
> *m:* +491603708037
>
> *w:* aiven.io *e:* matthew.dedetrich@aiven.io
>
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