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Posted to dev@avalon.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2003/11/25 17:48:45 UTC
[FYI] Longhorn presentation layer codenamed "Avalon"
http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/core/overviews/road_map.aspx
a "presentation layer" called Avalon that uses XML as the basis?
prepare for some nasty confusion :-/
--
Stefano.
Re: [FYI] Longhorn presentation layer codenamed "Avalon"
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/core/overviews/road_map.aspx
>
> a "presentation layer" called Avalon that uses XML as the basis? prepare
> for some nasty confusion :-/
>
Unfortunately what can you do? We have been aware of this issue, and
not quite sure how to manage it. The best we can do is make the Avalon
brand be Apache Avalon, and make it clear that the cheap knock-off at
Microsoft is in no way endorsed by Apache :/.
It's not like the ASF has really deep pockets, or that the name "Avalon"
isn't so unique as to be stepping on trademark. There are so many software
applications/frameworks/etc. that incorporate the name "Avalon" that it
really needs to be used in some way to scope it.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Re: [FYI] Longhorn presentation layer codenamed "Avalon"
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/core/overviews/road_map.aspx
>
> a "presentation layer" called Avalon that uses XML as the basis? prepare
> for some nasty confusion :-/
>
Unfortunately what can you do? We have been aware of this issue, and
not quite sure how to manage it. The best we can do is make the Avalon
brand be Apache Avalon, and make it clear that the cheap knock-off at
Microsoft is in no way endorsed by Apache :/.
It's not like the ASF has really deep pockets, or that the name "Avalon"
isn't so unique as to be stepping on trademark. There are so many software
applications/frameworks/etc. that incorporate the name "Avalon" that it
really needs to be used in some way to scope it.
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
Re: [FYI] Longhorn presentation layer codenamed "Avalon"
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>.
Massimo Sonego dijo:
> Thats great ;-)
>
> Sorry to shock you guys but if you see this from the positive side than
> you may recognize that this could also be a great chance for Apache
> Avalon and Avalon releated projects.
> When MS starts to launch there marketing machine, there will be *the*
> chance to but also Apache Avalon on the spotlight.
Maybe it can help a little, but no much, because I think Apache is by
itself a recongnized and respected "brand" in the IT world. In some cases
even more than MS:
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html
(this monthly survey say all).
> Even if MS-Avalon is not covering the same aspect of Apache Avalon a lot
> of people will find there way to Apache Avalon. Finnaly if there are
> Java related people they will take a closer look an found out that
> Apache Avalon is great.
Nope. Because they target diferent audencies. If I am looking for a car I
don't care is there is a boat with the same name. It just is a meaninless
confusion.
> So rather to start complaining or worring about the technical and
> standard aspect (where I agree with your point of view), just polish the
> Avalon website and point the success of Apache Avalon out. I think that
> Avalon has a tremendous success track, if you count the success of
> Cocoon and other real live Mission Critical Project than you have to say
> wow - Is MS Avalon having already this success track? I would say no it
> is just marketing and some me too strategie bla bla.
> Its a chance to a kind of relaunch of Apache Avalon there is just to
> ad/write some magazin article, book etc. and the success will be ours :-).
I agree, without worrying on any MS move.
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: [FYI] Longhorn presentation layer codenamed "Avalon"
Posted by Massimo Sonego <ma...@otego.com>.
Antonio Gallardo wrote:
>Nicola Ken Barozzi dijo:
>
>
>>Berin Loritsch wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/core/overviews/road_map.aspx
>>>>
>>>>a "presentation layer" called Avalon that uses XML as the basis?
>>>>prepare for some nasty confusion :-/
>>>>
>>>>
>>...
>>
>>
>>>The best we can do is make the Avalon
>>>brand be Apache Avalon, and make it clear that the cheap knock-off at
>>>Microsoft is in no way endorsed by Apache :/.
>>>
>>>
>>IMHO the worst thing about it is not the name.
>>
>>They are recreating XUL with their vocabulary,
>>
>>
>
>It is INNOVATION! Write it forever: INNOVATION! They are INNOVATING XUL
>names! This is top INNOVATION! Did you don't see this? They are the TOP
>INNOVATION company in the world. :-DDDD
>
>
>
>>but worst of all, they
>>are going to use a superset of SVG for drawing!
>>
>>
>
>The same game over and over. :-(
>Then I see SVG in the future with the same problems as HTML:
>
>Did you remember our Javascript Calendar and related problems to HTML
>rendering in IE, Mozilla, Safari, Opera, etc? It looks like an endless
>loop. They usually try to kill standards. What about XML and XSL in MS.
>They innovated the standard too? I hope Linux will soon shutdown them.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Antonio Gallardo
>
>
>
That’s great ;-)
Sorry to shock you guy’s but if you see this from the positive side than
you may recognize that this could also be a great chance for Apache
Avalon and Avalon releated projects.
When MS starts to launch there marketing machine, there will be *the*
chance to but also Apache Avalon on the spotlight.
Even if MS-Avalon is not covering the same aspect of Apache Avalon a lot
of people will find there way to Apache Avalon. Finnaly if there are
Java related people they will take a closer look an found out that
Apache Avalon is great.
So rather to start complaining or worring about the technical and
standard aspect (where I agree with your point of view), just polish the
Avalon website and point the success of Apache Avalon out. I think that
Avalon has a tremendous success track, if you count the success of
Cocoon and other real live Mission Critical Project than you have to say
wow - Is MS Avalon having already this success track? I would say no it
is just marketing and some metoo strategie bla bla.
It’s a chance to a kind of relaunch of Apache Avalon there is just to
ad/write some magazin article, book etc. and the success will be ours :-).
regards
massimo
--
OTEGO AG Tel: +41 (0)1 240 00 55
Massimo Sonego, Fax: +41 (0)1 240 00 56
CEO / Eidg. dipl. Wirtschaftsinf. Mobile: +41 (0)79 262 21 00
Hohlstrasse 216 Mailto: massimo.sonego@otego.com
CH-8004 Zürich Web: http://www.otego.com
Otego AG is a founding member of Orixo, the XML business alliance - http://www.orixo.com
Re: [FYI] Longhorn presentation layer codenamed "Avalon"
Posted by Antonio Gallardo <ag...@agsoftware.dnsalias.com>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi dijo:
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>
>>> http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/core/overviews/road_map.aspx
>>>
>>> a "presentation layer" called Avalon that uses XML as the basis?
>>> prepare for some nasty confusion :-/
> ...
>> The best we can do is make the Avalon
>> brand be Apache Avalon, and make it clear that the cheap knock-off at
>> Microsoft is in no way endorsed by Apache :/.
>
> IMHO the worst thing about it is not the name.
>
> They are recreating XUL with their vocabulary,
It is INNOVATION! Write it forever: INNOVATION! They are INNOVATING XUL
names! This is top INNOVATION! Did you don't see this? They are the TOP
INNOVATION company in the world. :-DDDD
> but worst of all, they
> are going to use a superset of SVG for drawing!
The same game over and over. :-(
Then I see SVG in the future with the same problems as HTML:
Did you remember our Javascript Calendar and related problems to HTML
rendering in IE, Mozilla, Safari, Opera, etc? It looks like an endless
loop. They usually try to kill standards. What about XML and XSL in MS.
They innovated the standard too? I hope Linux will soon shutdown them.
Best Regards,
Antonio Gallardo
Re: [FYI] Longhorn presentation layer codenamed "Avalon"
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>> http://longhorn.msdn.microsoft.com/lhsdk/core/overviews/road_map.aspx
>>
>> a "presentation layer" called Avalon that uses XML as the basis?
>> prepare for some nasty confusion :-/
...
> The best we can do is make the Avalon
> brand be Apache Avalon, and make it clear that the cheap knock-off at
> Microsoft is in no way endorsed by Apache :/.
IMHO the worst thing about it is not the name.
They are recreating XUL with their vocabulary, but worst of all, they
are going to use a superset of SVG for drawing!
Embrace-extend-kill :-(
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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