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Posted to dev@httpd.apache.org by Marc Slemko <ma...@worldgate.com> on 1997/07/31 00:10:40 UTC
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:54:59 -0500
From: Sam Rasins <Sa...@Caribe-Enterprises.com>
To: Marc Slemko <ma...@worldgate.com>
Subject: Re: anonymous CVS access
Mark,
I will leave it up to you as to weather you forward this to the new-httpd
list ... I know it is a bit like sales, but I felt you (the Apache Group)
should know that some of us "smaller" companies are willing to donate what
ever we can. I've been following the new-httpd list for about a month and
I think this is *finally* a way I can contribute!
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:32:33 -0600 (MDT) you listed a few specs you'd like
to see for an Apache.org server ... I have listed MY retail price for them
below ... HOWEVER ... I am wiling to *donate* (at least) those marked by *
to the left of the item. Also note that (yes this is a *PLUG* :) I will
give anyone contributing to the Apache Group a significant price-break ...
I'll basically cover my costs plus a *very* small profit to make the
accountants happy.
> Looking at rough costs (all in CDN$):
Caribe
CDN$ Retail $ Apache.org $
---------------------- -------- -------- ------------
* Motherboard with P/166 $400 $275.00 $235.00
* 2x 32 MB SIMMs $400 $295.00 $230.00 (for 64MB)
* case w/ps (mid tower) $100 $75.00 $60.00
* ethernet (10baseT ?) $50-100 $30.00 $25.00
scsi card (Adaptec 2940) $200 $225.00 $195.00
2 x 2G SCSI disk $1000 $580.00 $500.00 (for 2)
? tape backup drive $500 $150.00 $135.00 (varies with type)
* floppy $40 $32.00 $27.00
* keyboard $30 $27.00 $23.00
MIA
? Monitor (14") $225.00 $200.00
* Trident Video card (2MB) $60.00 $50.00
CDROM ??? (16x IDE) $100.00 $90.00
* - Denotes that Caribe Enterprises, Inc. will donate.
? - Denotes a question about type/size, etc.
I am actually offering a Cyrix P166+ ... but it's all in the noise!
As far as the SCSI drives go ... I am not sure I can bite off that much at
this time. The monitor is up in the air ... if the person administering the
system doesn't mind monochrome, then it gets REAL cheap.
> So that seems to me to add up to something between $2500-$3000 CDN.
> Which would be... $1800-$2200US. You could wop some money off
> disk, and perhaps live without a tape drive if something else can
> back it up.
The backup drive costs will vary a bunch ... the above was for a Taravan 800,
not real speedy, but good. You may be able to utilize another server as your
backup medium ... using something like 'rdist' to "mirror" the filesystem and
let the "other" system do the backup for you. (Maybe Brian at hyperreal will
do this for the group???)
> Could we reasonably put together such a system?
YES!!!
> Is it a good idea? I like the idea.
I think it is a great idea ... then the Apache Group can decide what OS and
such to use ... without having to gain the cooperation of the "host" system,
not that that has been a problem in the past ... just simpler.
Let me know what you (the Apache Group) thinks ...
Later,
Sambo !-)
<Sa...@OMNIport.net>
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
-- Walt Kelly
{NOTE: The quote above was provided via the 'fortune' program.}
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@organic.com>.
[I know I should be a good netizen and combine all responses into one post;
but I'm kinda pressed for time right now]
At 03:48 PM 7/30/97 -0700, Dean Gaudet wrote:
>Where hyperreal is at this moment (on the dmz between wired and organic)
>it could conceivably run gated and get a full view from wired and a full
>view from organic... which would mean it'd be on BBN, MCI, Sprint, and
>UUNET (modulo the need to advertise a prefix for it). Kind of hard to
>beat that. But it's not really adviseable to be going to this effort, but
>Brian and I were joking about it. Wired is happy providing bandwidth, and
>totally interested in knowing about deficiencies in that bandwidth...
The segment Hyperreal's on has two routers, one from organic and one from
wired. We were planning on transitioning to all Wired bandwidth with the
Organic link used just for local traffic, but Organic could probably share
the burden too. Currently it's still all Organic, I'm waiting for someone
at Wired to flip the right switch on a router of theirs. Anyways, I have
no problem with the idea of running gated and bgp4 on Hyperreal, modulo CPU
& memory requirements.
Brian
--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
"Why not?" - TL brian@organic.com - hyperreal.org - apache.org
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
Posted by Brian Behlendorf <br...@organic.com>.
At 05:14 PM 7/30/97 -0600, Marc Slemko wrote:
(current hyperreal segment)
>Oh, and what else is on that segment? Just thinking of if we put
>another machine there and Brian didn't want to do everything (guess
>we need another person or two with root on it anyway), is there
>anything else on the segment that would make any great powers uneasy
>that it could be sniffed?
The old segment Hyperreal was on did have some other employee machines with
folks who had root; in fact I used another machine when I was doing some
IP-traffic measurements of hyperreal recently. On the new segment there's
only (so far) hyperreal; one would have to sniff from either of wired's or
organic routers (or any of our providers, etc).
Putting another box here would probably be fine, just be someone
conservative on box size. Rack-mountable preferable. :)
Brian
--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
"Why not?" - TL brian@organic.com - hyperreal.org - apache.org
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
Posted by Ben Laurie <be...@algroup.co.uk>.
Marc Slemko wrote:
> > > > scsi card (Adaptec 2940) $200 $225.00 $195.00
> > >
> > > A Tekram card based on the NCR chipset would be less expensive; we like
> > > them for servers here. Adaptec works though.
> >
> > I'm partial to buslogic 958s. But that's because the linux adaptec
> > driver, uh, isn't. But you're the freebsd guy.
>
> I would go for something like a Tekram (or other NCR card, but some of the
> cards using the NCR chipset are really cheap, bad termination, etc.);
> Buslogic doesn't have the greatest support under FreeBSD, but I have never
> tried one so I can't say...
Last time I tangled with Buslogic I got very irritated, coz they reorder
SCSI commands in their internal queues. Admittedly this was several
years ago. Just as a data point, we got 8 MB/s out of two striped SCSI
disks on FreeBSD using a single Adaptec a few weeks ago... (if I'd
realised it was going to be that fast I'd've specified two Adaptecs).
Cheers,
Ben.
--
Ben Laurie Phone: +44 (181) 994 6435 Email:
ben@algroup.co.uk
Freelance Consultant and Fax: +44 (181) 994 6472
Technical Director URL: http://www.algroup.co.uk/Apache-SSL
A.L. Digital Ltd, Apache Group member (http://www.apache.org)
London, England. Apache-SSL author
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
Posted by Dean Gaudet <dg...@arctic.org>.
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Marc Slemko wrote:
> So where is bandwidth coming from right now? Looks like Organic
> to me, no? What is different from how it was before? I've never
> understood the relationship between Wired and Organic.
At the moment it's still organic bandwidth ... because wired's border
routers aren't configured yet to allow hyperreal's old addresses to send
packets out. Brian and I put it on the dmz on Monday night.
Wired and Organic are in the same building, and Hotwired started out there
as well. Way ages ago Wired had connectivity to Sprint and TLG, and at
that time Organic (and a few others in the same building) bought bandwidth
from Wired. Then along came, um, I think it was www.levi.com, wasn't it
Brian? Organic was hosting www.levi.com, and, well it became popular
enough that it saturated all the bandwidth available.
Organic then ordered their own connectivity from UUnet. A third company
entered the picture: BigBook (they were in a building just down the
block). Organic and BigBook started doing backup for each other, so they
have UUnet and MCI connectivity. The connection between Wired and Organic
is still in place (why waste an existing 10baseT connection?). Hotwired
moved down the street, got big pipes to BBN and MCI, moved the Sprint
connectivity to the new building, and now has multiple radio T1s and a
backup T1 in the ground that connects it to the wired/organic building.
And if this wasn't incestuous enough yet, bigbook moved into the same
building as hotwired, bringing even more redundant connections between the
buildings (and another 10baseT connected to hotwired that's still waiting
for a 'roundtuit to bring up).
The three companies are in a sort of "triangle" of networks (well, the
bb/hw side isn't live right now). They share BGP... bb and organic share
almost full bgp and share live traffic, but none of that goes over the dmz
between wired and organic ('cept in an emergency). Wired and organic, and
wired and bb share bgp only for the purpose of local traffic.
> Oh, and what else is on that segment? Just thinking of if we put
> another machine there and Brian didn't want to do everything (guess
> we need another person or two with root on it anyway), is there
> anything else on the segment that would make any great powers uneasy
> that it could be sniffed?
A switch or bridge can be put in place. In fact there's a bridge lying
around that used to do a similar job when organic was buying bandwidth
from wired. At any rate there's a need for a switch in wired's closet
anyhow, and the inexpensive 3com linkswitch 1000s do VLAN.
The only traffic on that segment otherwise is basic web browsing and
usenet reading. For the most part it's safe, but still worth bridging.
All three companies have been pretty cool about letting employees have net
bandwidth for their projects... wired's "employee closet" even has a
switch dedicated to the employee lan, so that snooping between machines
isn't as huge an issue. I still consult periodically for hotwired, which
is how I'm keeping my machine there :) It's cheaper than a colo.
Dean
P.S. When the whole "triangle" was being set up the first time we gave
thought to building a "multi-media gulch NAP" ;) Three buildings, three
diverse paths to the net... it all seemed logical. But none of us had
enough time to put to such a project.
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
Posted by Marc Slemko <ma...@worldgate.com>.
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Dean Gaudet wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Marc Slemko wrote:
>
> > I think either a Kingston KNE40T 10 meg card or an Intel EtherExpress Pro
> > 100B 10/100 card would be the best way to go. They work well. There are
> > others, but it is nice to get a decent one.
>
> A big +1 for any DEC 2114x based 10/100 card. They are without a doubt
> the best 10/100s out there at the moment.
The Intel uses Intel's own chip. It is available for other vendors to use
but I'm not aware of any who are. It is $100CDN at low-volume reseller
pricing. It is probably the best supported 10/100 card under FreeBSD and
has the most efficient driver. The Kingston 10 meg card uses the DEC
chipset and is ~$55CDN. A DEC 10/100 card would be fine. The only
trouble with the DEC chipset is that there seems to be a new revision out
every second week that needs an updated driver. Sigh.
Does a 10/100 card gain anything over a 10?
>
> > > scsi card (Adaptec 2940) $200 $225.00 $195.00
> >
> > A Tekram card based on the NCR chipset would be less expensive; we like
> > them for servers here. Adaptec works though.
>
> I'm partial to buslogic 958s. But that's because the linux adaptec
> driver, uh, isn't. But you're the freebsd guy.
I would go for something like a Tekram (or other NCR card, but some of the
cards using the NCR chipset are really cheap, bad termination, etc.);
Buslogic doesn't have the greatest support under FreeBSD, but I have never
tried one so I can't say...
>
> > > 2 x 2G SCSI disk $1000 $580.00 $500.00 (for 2)
> >
> > Need to be careful what you get. Some cheap scsi drives (eg. Quantum)
> > really really suck. My current favorite low-end drive SCSI is the IBM
> > UltraStar 2ES.
>
> Yes, cheap scsi is worse than volume IDE drives imho. If you're buying
Consider the Quantum Fireball(?) I think it is. The SCSI version is
slower than the IDE version because their SCSI interface stinks.
> cheap you might as well save the cost of the scsi card and the extra $100
For $500CDN for a 2.1 gig drive, the IBM drives are nice and reasonable
quality.
> to $200 that scsi drives cost each. 3Gb is $300 in IDE. If you've got a
> motherboard with triton chipset, then you're talking DMA IDE (freebsd does
> this right?). I get the same performance as a seagate hawk out of my
> 1.6Gb WD Caviar IDE.
Nyet, no DMA IDE. Well, alpha support for it was just brought into
-current, but...
If you want a DAT drive you need SCSI anyway. SCSI drives are more
expensive, but far more convenient and I trust them a lot more.
> > I would suggest some sort of DAT drive. It is certainly posisble and
> > advisable to keep copies of certain things over the network, but a local
> > drive is still a good thing. This does require there be someone with easy
> > enough physical access to change tapes.
>
> +1 on DAT. DAT sucks for archival purposes, but is fine for backups.
>
> Where hyperreal is at this moment (on the dmz between wired and organic)
> it could conceivably run gated and get a full view from wired and a full
> view from organic... which would mean it'd be on BBN, MCI, Sprint, and
> UUNET (modulo the need to advertise a prefix for it). Kind of hard to
> beat that. But it's not really adviseable to be going to this effort, but
> Brian and I were joking about it. Wired is happy providing bandwidth, and
> totally interested in knowing about deficiencies in that bandwidth...
So where is bandwidth coming from right now? Looks like Organic
to me, no? What is different from how it was before? I've never
understood the relationship between Wired and Organic.
>
> Regarding maintenance, Brian does an excellent job on hyperreal. But I
> can see having a second machine becoming a chore. If the second machine
> does go on the same bandwidth only Brian effectively has physical access
> to it (although I can probably get at it too if someone is in the organic
> office that knows my face). It could be moved right into hotwired's
> machine closet, but then only I have physical access, and I'm moving an
> hour away from there.
Oh, and what else is on that segment? Just thinking of if we put
another machine there and Brian didn't want to do everything (guess
we need another person or two with root on it anyway), is there
anything else on the segment that would make any great powers uneasy
that it could be sniffed?
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
Posted by Dean Gaudet <dg...@arctic.org>.
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Marc Slemko wrote:
> Comments on specific hardware are in relation to FreeBSD, which is what I
> would suggest running on it. Am open to suggestions though.
FreeBSD is fine with me, path of least resistance and all.
> I think either a Kingston KNE40T 10 meg card or an Intel EtherExpress Pro
> 100B 10/100 card would be the best way to go. They work well. There are
> others, but it is nice to get a decent one.
A big +1 for any DEC 2114x based 10/100 card. They are without a doubt
the best 10/100s out there at the moment.
> > scsi card (Adaptec 2940) $200 $225.00 $195.00
>
> A Tekram card based on the NCR chipset would be less expensive; we like
> them for servers here. Adaptec works though.
I'm partial to buslogic 958s. But that's because the linux adaptec
driver, uh, isn't. But you're the freebsd guy.
> > 2 x 2G SCSI disk $1000 $580.00 $500.00 (for 2)
>
> Need to be careful what you get. Some cheap scsi drives (eg. Quantum)
> really really suck. My current favorite low-end drive SCSI is the IBM
> UltraStar 2ES.
Yes, cheap scsi is worse than volume IDE drives imho. If you're buying
cheap you might as well save the cost of the scsi card and the extra $100
to $200 that scsi drives cost each. 3Gb is $300 in IDE. If you've got a
motherboard with triton chipset, then you're talking DMA IDE (freebsd does
this right?). I get the same performance as a seagate hawk out of my
1.6Gb WD Caviar IDE.
> I would suggest some sort of DAT drive. It is certainly posisble and
> advisable to keep copies of certain things over the network, but a local
> drive is still a good thing. This does require there be someone with easy
> enough physical access to change tapes.
+1 on DAT. DAT sucks for archival purposes, but is fine for backups.
Where hyperreal is at this moment (on the dmz between wired and organic)
it could conceivably run gated and get a full view from wired and a full
view from organic... which would mean it'd be on BBN, MCI, Sprint, and
UUNET (modulo the need to advertise a prefix for it). Kind of hard to
beat that. But it's not really adviseable to be going to this effort, but
Brian and I were joking about it. Wired is happy providing bandwidth, and
totally interested in knowing about deficiencies in that bandwidth...
Regarding maintenance, Brian does an excellent job on hyperreal. But I
can see having a second machine becoming a chore. If the second machine
does go on the same bandwidth only Brian effectively has physical access
to it (although I can probably get at it too if someone is in the organic
office that knows my face). It could be moved right into hotwired's
machine closet, but then only I have physical access, and I'm moving an
hour away from there.
Dean
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
Posted by Rob Hartill <ro...@imdb.com>.
The quotes are interesting and welcome, but lets hold off until
a) we decide to do this
b) we have a rack somewhere to stick the thing on.
Re: anonymous CVS access (fwd)
Posted by Marc Slemko <ma...@worldgate.com>.
On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, Marc Slemko wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:54:59 -0500
> From: Sam Rasins <Sa...@Caribe-Enterprises.com>
> To: Marc Slemko <ma...@worldgate.com>
> Subject: Re: anonymous CVS access
>
>
> Mark,
>
> I will leave it up to you as to weather you forward this to the new-httpd
> list ... I know it is a bit like sales, but I felt you (the Apache Group)
> should know that some of us "smaller" companies are willing to donate what
> ever we can. I've been following the new-httpd list for about a month and
> I think this is *finally* a way I can contribute!
>
> On Wed, 30 Jul 1997 10:32:33 -0600 (MDT) you listed a few specs you'd like
> to see for an Apache.org server ... I have listed MY retail price for them
> below ... HOWEVER ... I am wiling to *donate* (at least) those marked by *
> to the left of the item. Also note that (yes this is a *PLUG* :) I will
> give anyone contributing to the Apache Group a significant price-break ...
> I'll basically cover my costs plus a *very* small profit to make the
> accountants happy.
I think we would be quite interested. May take a bit to decide anything
though...
>
>
> > Looking at rough costs (all in CDN$):
>
Comments on specific hardware are in relation to FreeBSD, which is what I
would suggest running on it. Am open to suggestions though.
> Caribe
> CDN$ Retail $ Apache.org $
> ---------------------- -------- -------- ------------
> * Motherboard with P/166 $400 $275.00 $235.00
> * 2x 32 MB SIMMs $400 $295.00 $230.00 (for 64MB)
> * case w/ps (mid tower) $100 $75.00 $60.00
> * ethernet (10baseT ?) $50-100 $30.00 $25.00
I think either a Kingston KNE40T 10 meg card or an Intel EtherExpress Pro
100B 10/100 card would be the best way to go. They work well. There are
others, but it is nice to get a decent one.
> scsi card (Adaptec 2940) $200 $225.00 $195.00
A Tekram card based on the NCR chipset would be less expensive; we like
them for servers here. Adaptec works though.
> 2 x 2G SCSI disk $1000 $580.00 $500.00 (for 2)
Need to be careful what you get. Some cheap scsi drives (eg. Quantum)
really really suck. My current favorite low-end drive SCSI is the IBM
UltraStar 2ES.
> ? tape backup drive $500 $150.00 $135.00 (varies with type)
> * floppy $40 $32.00 $27.00
> * keyboard $30 $27.00 $23.00
>
> MIA
> ? Monitor (14") $225.00 $200.00
> * Trident Video card (2MB) $60.00 $50.00
> CDROM ??? (16x IDE) $100.00 $90.00
>
>
> * - Denotes that Caribe Enterprises, Inc. will donate.
> ? - Denotes a question about type/size, etc.
>
>
> I am actually offering a Cyrix P166+ ... but it's all in the noise!
>
> As far as the SCSI drives go ... I am not sure I can bite off that much at
> this time. The monitor is up in the air ... if the person administering the
> system doesn't mind monochrome, then it gets REAL cheap.
Depending on where it is located, a monitor may not be necessary. Nothing
wrong with headless servers as long as there is a monitor that can be
borrowed for them.
>
>
> > So that seems to me to add up to something between $2500-$3000 CDN.
> > Which would be... $1800-$2200US. You could wop some money off
> > disk, and perhaps live without a tape drive if something else can
> > back it up.
>
> The backup drive costs will vary a bunch ... the above was for a Taravan 800,
> not real speedy, but good. You may be able to utilize another server as your
> backup medium ... using something like 'rdist' to "mirror" the filesystem and
> let the "other" system do the backup for you. (Maybe Brian at hyperreal will
> do this for the group???)
I would suggest some sort of DAT drive. It is certainly posisble and
advisable to keep copies of certain things over the network, but a local
drive is still a good thing. This does require there be someone with easy
enough physical access to change tapes.
>
>
> > Could we reasonably put together such a system?
>
> YES!!!
>
> > Is it a good idea? I like the idea.
>
> I think it is a great idea ... then the Apache Group can decide what OS and
> such to use ... without having to gain the cooperation of the "host" system,
> not that that has been a problem in the past ... just simpler.
>
>
> Let me know what you (the Apache Group) thinks ...
>
> Later,
> Sambo !-)
> <Sa...@OMNIport.net>
>
> We have met the enemy, and he is us.
> -- Walt Kelly
>
> {NOTE: The quote above was provided via the 'fortune' program.}
>