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Posted to user@ofbiz.apache.org by Cameron Smith <ca...@yahoo.co.uk> on 2007/04/20 16:44:53 UTC
Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
When I have time to write it!
----- Original Message ----
From: Zesheng Liu <li...@bit2x.com>
To: ofbiz-user@incubator.apache.org; Cameron Smith <ca...@mail.com>
Sent: Friday, 20 April, 2007 3:38:33 PM
Subject: Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
Hi, Cameron
Untill now, I can't see "zk+ofbiz howto" like you promised
when?
regards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cameron Smith" <ca...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <of...@incubator.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 7:20 PM
Subject: Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
Tibor and all. I had some time today to followup on your Nextapp suggestion and investigate it a little more thoroughly. (Unfortunately Jacques I have not yet had time to read the BEA article you recommended, but I will).
My overall conclusion was that Nextapp is definitely not ready yet, and perhaps not ever, for the objectives I stated in my previous mail. There are three main reasons for this conclusion.
1. Nextapp is focussed on Java-only creation and building of components. Very like Swing. It does not have the option which ZK (like GTK) offers, of specifying those very same runtime components in XML. Therefore if you are tweaking the appearance of your UI rapidly, you always need to be altering Java source - not a productive model in my experience, and exactly what I am trying to get away from.
2. As that beer advert used to say a while ago "its not ready yet....!". There appear to be many bugs in basic components, and I want to be fixing bugs in MY OWN software, not Nextapps. Check out these recent posts from Nextapp forums, for example:
http://forum.nextapp.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3495
http://forum.nextapp.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3460
http://forum.nextapp.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3465
3. There does not appear to be a dedicated development team behind Echo 2, rather it is "one of the things" that a handful of clever but too-busy guys are trying to do. Potix appear to also be clever and busy but they only do ZK, and they charge for it, i.e. they have a revenue stream to apply to its maintenance. Compare this post (observe posting dates closely)
http://forum.nextapp.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3350
...with these pages from Potix, to get an idea of differing rates of progress and consistency:
http://potix.com/
http://potix.com/release/rn-2.2.0.dsp
I by no means am criticising the Nextapp team or its user community, I merely believe that this framework, at the moment, isn't fit for the purpose I have in mind. OpenLaszlo continues to be a much more obvious alternative at this point - just as soon as they get their DHTML rendering support sorted!
cheers,
cameron
----- Original Message ----
From: tibor katelbach <oc...@gmail.com>
To: ofbiz-user@incubator.apache.org
Sent: Wednesday, 13 December, 2006 11:38:46 PM
Subject: Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
Hi guys
have you taken a look at echo 2 Next app, It's quite impressive and all
Java just like ZK.
http://www.nextapp.com/platform/echo2/echo/
best Regards
Tibor
On 12/13/06, David E Jones <jo...@undersunconsulting.com> wrote:
>
>
> This sounds pretty cool. Just to make it clear though, if it is GPL
> licensed we can't include it in OFBiz nor can we include code that
> relies on it or uses it in OFBiz.
>
> -David
>
>
> On Dec 13, 2006, at 1:23 PM, Cameron Smith wrote:
>
> > Just to contribute to this discussion, we are moving in the
> > direction of using the ZK framework (potix.com). It has the same
> > dual licensing framework as MySQL.
> >
> > Note that this is a step beyond simply "using Ajax" inside a
> > basically normally page-by-page framework. It creates a much more
> > "desktop" model of development. The key reasons we are jumping to
> > this kind of model are:
> > 1. Avoids the mish-mash of technologies and syntax which most web
> > projects have (JSP + JSTL + Struts + DHTML + Prototype) for
> > example. One of the thins I most like about OFBiz (backend) is
> > that to code entities and business logic, you can spend most of
> > your time thinking about the data model, logic flow and
> > understanding the problem domain. Actually coding the service is
> > fairly straightforward, and doesn演 even require Java knowledge
> > (although Java is always there if you need it). Unfortunately,
> > after trying out the OFBiz frontend framework, we found it still
> > rather a mish-mash, albeit better organized. Widgets, screens,
> > forms, FTL, beanshell, scattered around various directories.
> > In ZK, you basically code in a very consistent XML language, and
> > beanshell. Optionally, you can define complex components in Java,
> > there are many plugin points. So we can reuse our developer's
> > existing Java knowledge.
> >
> > 2. Nicer to look at, and facilitates making more user-friendly UIs,
> > which is one area where OFBiz still has a long way to go.
> >
> > 3. Facilitates reuse of components across your application (if you
> > are careful about it).
> >
> > 4. MAY be more performant because there is less network traffic,
> > and less needless reprocessing of most of the page (menus, headers
> > etc), by both browser and server, every time you click a wee button.
> >
> > In technical terms, yes it requires installation of some servlets,
> > listeners etc. in your webapp but this to me is reasonable. They
> > are all standard J2EE components which I know how to configure and
> > secure.
> >
> > There IS a case for centralizing some of these services across all
> > OFBiz JVM, if you use ZK in multiple webapps, but then you could
> > say that about the OFBiz control servlet as well. There is always
> > some tradeoff between modularization and centralization.
> >
> > In terms of compatibility, it DOES depend on a more recent version
> > of Beanshell but I do not believe this issue will be around too
> > long (see: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-528)
> >
> > The other very similar alternative to ZK, which we also
> > investigated, is:
> > http://www.openlaszlo.org/
> >
> > A very similar architecture, and very well-documented. The big
> > stumbling block was that it requires the browser to have Flash
> > plugin, of a certain version, etc., whereas ZK is purely DHTML-
> > based. Laszlo have been saying that DHTML support is coming "soon"
> > but in fact they have been saying this for a while. All of the
> > other frameworks (DOJO, prototype, rico, etc.) have the drawback
> > that they do one or two things, and have their very own syntax and
> > configuration peculiarities. ZK may not be best of breed in any of
> > these areas, but it is no slacker, and has the advantage of a
> > consistent approach to everything.
> >
> > Anyway, we are currently converting a 32bit client-server product
> > to use ZK frontend + OFBiz backend, I will keep yous all informed
> > of how it goes.
> >
> > cameron
> >
> > P.S. I am not in any way a representative of Potix Software, I am
> > merely summarizing the outcomes of my findings so far, with the
> > community
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Sayoke Shome <sa...@TechMahindra.com>
> > To: ofbiz-user@incubator.apache.org
> > Sent: Wednesday, 13 December, 2006 6:17:53 AM
> > Subject: RE: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
> >
> >
> > I haven't worked much on DOJO (found it little confusing), but if
> > Ofbiz
> > community is looking for a tested and free framework for Ajax then
> > Might
> > I suggest DWR framework. The only disadvantage is, it comes with
> > its own
> > servlet. This has to be incorporated in Web.xml for web-app. But it
> > would make Ajax implementation child's play.
> >
> > But after working on Ajax in Ofbiz for couple of months I feel we can
> > make the most of it if we use naked Ajax code. It will then exploit
> > the
> > MVC architecture of Ofbiz to fullest and no third party servlet
> > will be
> > required.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Sayoke Shome | eCommerce Framework Developer | ENSIA | BIPL, sector V,
> > salt lake | mobile 0.99031.80520 |
> >
> > "Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge
> > without
> > integrity is dangerous and dreadful."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:tim.ruppert@hotwaxmedia.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 9:28 AM
> > To: ofbiz-user@incubator.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: ofBiz featuring Google ajax?
> >
> >
> >
> > Walter, there's actually a lot of discussion on this topic going on
> >
> > on the dev list as we speak. There are competing "standards" out
> >
> > there and we're all trying to come to some consensus about what
> >
> > direction to take the project.
> >
> >
> >
> > We currently have demos in JSON, Google Web Toolkit and Dojo (and I
> >
> > know there are lots of other ones going on with other companies) - so
> >
> > I'm confident that we'll get to a good place.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --
> >
> > Tim Ruppert
> >
> > HotWax Media
> >
> > http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
> >
> >
> >
> > o:801.649.6594
> >
> > f:801.649.6594
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 12, 2006, at 6:39 PM, Walter Vaughan wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> I just read in that Google Ajax has been released under the Apache
> >
> >> 2.0 license. I know that Si and a few others are working on
> >
> >> integrating a few ajax features into the project, but it might be
> >
> >> cool to have a bulletpoint like "features the Google(r) Web Toolkit
> >
> >> (tm)"...
> >
> >>
> >
> >> http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/makinggwtbetter.html
> >
> >>
> >
> >> --
> >
> >> Walter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ======================================================================
> > ======================================================
> >
> > Tech Mahindra, formerly Mahindra-British Telecom.
> >
> > Disclaimer:
> >
> > This message and the information contained herein is proprietary
> > and confidential and subject to the Tech Mahindra policy statement,
> > you may review at <a href="http://www.techmahindra.com/
> > Disclaimer.html">http://www.techmahindra.com/Disclaimer.html</a>
> > externally and <a href="http://tim.techmahindra.com/
> > Disclaimer.html">http://tim.techmahindra.com/Disclaimer.html</a>
> > internally within Tech Mahindra.
> >
> > ======================================================================
> > ======================================================
> >
> >
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends http://
> > uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
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Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.
Like all "good" politicians knows (in France we have good specialists
for that)
'Promises engage only those that listen'
Sorry I was not able to withstand :o)
Jacques
----- Message d'origine -----
De : "Cameron Smith" <ca...@yahoo.co.uk>
À : "Zesheng Liu" <li...@bit2x.com>
Cc : <us...@ofbiz.apache.org>
Envoyé : vendredi 20 avril 2007 16:44
Objet : Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
> When I have time to write it!
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Zesheng Liu <li...@bit2x.com>
> To: ofbiz-user@incubator.apache.org; Cameron Smith
<ca...@mail.com>
> Sent: Friday, 20 April, 2007 3:38:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
>
> Hi, Cameron
>
>
>
> Untill now, I can't see "zk+ofbiz howto" like you promised
>
>
>
> when?
>
>
>
> regards
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: "Cameron Smith" <ca...@yahoo.co.uk>
>
> To: <of...@incubator.apache.org>
>
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 7:20 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
>
>
>
>
>
> Tibor and all. I had some time today to followup on your Nextapp
suggestion and investigate it a little more thoroughly. (Unfortunately
Jacques I have not yet had time to read the BEA article you recommended,
but I will).
>
>
>
> My overall conclusion was that Nextapp is definitely not ready yet,
and perhaps not ever, for the objectives I stated in my previous mail.
There are three main reasons for this conclusion.
>
>
>
> 1. Nextapp is focussed on Java-only creation and building of
components. Very like Swing. It does not have the option which ZK
(like GTK) offers, of specifying those very same runtime components in
XML. Therefore if you are tweaking the appearance of your UI rapidly,
you always need to be altering Java source - not a productive model in
my experience, and exactly what I am trying to get away from.
>
>
>
> 2. As that beer advert used to say a while ago "its not ready
yet....!". There appear to be many bugs in basic components, and I want
to be fixing bugs in MY OWN software, not Nextapps. Check out these
recent posts from Nextapp forums, for example:
>
> http://forum.nextapp.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3495
>
> http://forum.nextapp.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3460
>
> http://forum.nextapp.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3465
>
>
>
> 3. There does not appear to be a dedicated development team behind
Echo 2, rather it is "one of the things" that a handful of clever but
too-busy guys are trying to do. Potix appear to also be clever and busy
but they only do ZK, and they charge for it, i.e. they have a revenue
stream to apply to its maintenance. Compare this post (observe posting
dates closely)
>
> http://forum.nextapp.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3350
>
>
>
> ...with these pages from Potix, to get an idea of differing rates of
progress and consistency:
>
> http://potix.com/
>
> http://potix.com/release/rn-2.2.0.dsp
>
>
>
> I by no means am criticising the Nextapp team or its user community, I
merely believe that this framework, at the moment, isn't fit for the
purpose I have in mind. OpenLaszlo continues to be a much more obvious
alternative at this point - just as soon as they get their DHTML
rendering support sorted!
>
>
>
> cheers,
>
> cameron
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>
> From: tibor katelbach <oc...@gmail.com>
>
> To: ofbiz-user@incubator.apache.org
>
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 December, 2006 11:38:46 PM
>
> Subject: Re: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
>
>
>
> Hi guys
>
>
>
> have you taken a look at echo 2 Next app, It's quite impressive and
all
>
> Java just like ZK.
>
> http://www.nextapp.com/platform/echo2/echo/
>
>
>
> best Regards
>
> Tibor
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 12/13/06, David E Jones <jo...@undersunconsulting.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This sounds pretty cool. Just to make it clear though, if it is GPL
>
> > licensed we can't include it in OFBiz nor can we include code that
>
> > relies on it or uses it in OFBiz.
>
> >
>
> > -David
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Dec 13, 2006, at 1:23 PM, Cameron Smith wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Just to contribute to this discussion, we are moving in the
>
> > > direction of using the ZK framework (potix.com). It has the same
>
> > > dual licensing framework as MySQL.
>
> > >
>
> > > Note that this is a step beyond simply "using Ajax" inside a
>
> > > basically normally page-by-page framework. It creates a much more
>
> > > "desktop" model of development. The key reasons we are jumping to
>
> > > this kind of model are:
>
> > > 1. Avoids the mish-mash of technologies and syntax which most web
>
> > > projects have (JSP + JSTL + Struts + DHTML + Prototype) for
>
> > > example. One of the thins I most like about OFBiz (backend) is
>
> > > that to code entities and business logic, you can spend most of
>
> > > your time thinking about the data model, logic flow and
>
> > > understanding the problem domain. Actually coding the service is
>
> > > fairly straightforward, and doesn演 even require Java knowledge
>
> > > (although Java is always there if you need it). Unfortunately,
>
> > > after trying out the OFBiz frontend framework, we found it still
>
> > > rather a mish-mash, albeit better organized. Widgets, screens,
>
> > > forms, FTL, beanshell, scattered around various directories.
>
> > > In ZK, you basically code in a very consistent XML language, and
>
> > > beanshell. Optionally, you can define complex components in
Java,
>
> > > there are many plugin points. So we can reuse our developer's
>
> > > existing Java knowledge.
>
> > >
>
> > > 2. Nicer to look at, and facilitates making more user-friendly
UIs,
>
> > > which is one area where OFBiz still has a long way to go.
>
> > >
>
> > > 3. Facilitates reuse of components across your application (if you
>
> > > are careful about it).
>
> > >
>
> > > 4. MAY be more performant because there is less network traffic,
>
> > > and less needless reprocessing of most of the page (menus, headers
>
> > > etc), by both browser and server, every time you click a wee
button.
>
> > >
>
> > > In technical terms, yes it requires installation of some servlets,
>
> > > listeners etc. in your webapp but this to me is reasonable. They
>
> > > are all standard J2EE components which I know how to configure and
>
> > > secure.
>
> > >
>
> > > There IS a case for centralizing some of these services across all
>
> > > OFBiz JVM, if you use ZK in multiple webapps, but then you could
>
> > > say that about the OFBiz control servlet as well. There is always
>
> > > some tradeoff between modularization and centralization.
>
> > >
>
> > > In terms of compatibility, it DOES depend on a more recent version
>
> > > of Beanshell but I do not believe this issue will be around too
>
> > > long (see: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-528)
>
> > >
>
> > > The other very similar alternative to ZK, which we also
>
> > > investigated, is:
>
> > > http://www.openlaszlo.org/
>
> > >
>
> > > A very similar architecture, and very well-documented. The big
>
> > > stumbling block was that it requires the browser to have Flash
>
> > > plugin, of a certain version, etc., whereas ZK is purely DHTML-
>
> > > based. Laszlo have been saying that DHTML support is coming
"soon"
>
> > > but in fact they have been saying this for a while. All of the
>
> > > other frameworks (DOJO, prototype, rico, etc.) have the drawback
>
> > > that they do one or two things, and have their very own syntax and
>
> > > configuration peculiarities. ZK may not be best of breed in any
of
>
> > > these areas, but it is no slacker, and has the advantage of a
>
> > > consistent approach to everything.
>
> > >
>
> > > Anyway, we are currently converting a 32bit client-server product
>
> > > to use ZK frontend + OFBiz backend, I will keep yous all informed
>
> > > of how it goes.
>
> > >
>
> > > cameron
>
> > >
>
> > > P.S. I am not in any way a representative of Potix Software, I am
>
> > > merely summarizing the outcomes of my findings so far, with the
>
> > > community
>
> > >
>
> > > ----- Original Message ----
>
> > > From: Sayoke Shome <sa...@TechMahindra.com>
>
> > > To: ofbiz-user@incubator.apache.org
>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, 13 December, 2006 6:17:53 AM
>
> > > Subject: RE: Ofbiz featuring Google Ajax?
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > I haven't worked much on DOJO (found it little confusing), but if
>
> > > Ofbiz
>
> > > community is looking for a tested and free framework for Ajax then
>
> > > Might
>
> > > I suggest DWR framework. The only disadvantage is, it comes with
>
> > > its own
>
> > > servlet. This has to be incorporated in Web.xml for web-app. But
it
>
> > > would make Ajax implementation child's play.
>
> > >
>
> > > But after working on Ajax in Ofbiz for couple of months I feel we
can
>
> > > make the most of it if we use naked Ajax code. It will then
exploit
>
> > > the
>
> > > MVC architecture of Ofbiz to fullest and no third party servlet
>
> > > will be
>
> > > required.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Thanks and regards,
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Sayoke Shome | eCommerce Framework Developer | ENSIA | BIPL,
sector V,
>
> > > salt lake | mobile 0.99031.80520 |
>
> > >
>
> > > "Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge
>
> > > without
>
> > > integrity is dangerous and dreadful."
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
>
> > > From: Tim Ruppert [mailto:tim.ruppert@hotwaxmedia.com]
>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 9:28 AM
>
> > > To: ofbiz-user@incubator.apache.org
>
> > > Subject: Re: ofBiz featuring Google ajax?
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Walter, there's actually a lot of discussion on this topic going
on
>
> > >
>
> > > on the dev list as we speak. There are competing "standards" out
>
> > >
>
> > > there and we're all trying to come to some consensus about what
>
> > >
>
> > > direction to take the project.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > We currently have demos in JSON, Google Web Toolkit and Dojo (and
I
>
> > >
>
> > > know there are lots of other ones going on with other companies) -
so
>
> > >
>
> > > I'm confident that we'll get to a good place.
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > Cheers,
>
> > >
>
> > > Tim
>
> > >
>
> > > --
>
> > >
>
> > > Tim Ruppert
>
> > >
>
> > > HotWax Media
>
> > >
>
> > > http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > o:801.649.6594
>
> > >
>
> > > f:801.649.6594
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > On Dec 12, 2006, at 6:39 PM, Walter Vaughan wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >> I just read in that Google Ajax has been released under the
Apache
>
> > >
>
> > >> 2.0 license. I know that Si and a few others are working on
>
> > >
>
> > >> integrating a few ajax features into the project, but it might be
>
> > >
>
> > >> cool to have a bulletpoint like "features the Google(r) Web
Toolkit
>
> > >
>
> > >> (tm)"...
>
> > >
>
> > >>
>
> > >
>
> > >> http://code.google.com/webtoolkit/makinggwtbetter.html
>
> > >
>
> > >>
>
> > >
>
> > >> --
>
> > >
>
> > >> Walter
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
======================================================================
>
> > > ======================================================
>
> > >
>
> > > Tech Mahindra, formerly Mahindra-British Telecom.
>
> > >
>
> > > Disclaimer:
>
> > >
>
> > > This message and the information contained herein is proprietary
>
> > > and confidential and subject to the Tech Mahindra policy
statement,
>
> > > you may review at <a href="http://www.techmahindra.com/
>
> > > Disclaimer.html">http://www.techmahindra.com/Disclaimer.html</a>
>
> > > externally and <a href="http://tim.techmahindra.com/
>
> > > Disclaimer.html">http://tim.techmahindra.com/Disclaimer.html</a>
>
> > > internally within Tech Mahindra.
>
> > >
>
> > >
======================================================================
>
> > > ======================================================
>
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://
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> > > uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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> >
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> ___________________________________________________________
>
> All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity
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http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html