let me introduce myself .. Paul G

[Paul Gydos <fa...@gydos.com>]

Hi,

My name is Paul Gydos,

Although I have general background as a computer user and am a bit more
advanced than your average user, I have more interest than technical
background.

Starting a few months back I realized that what was keeping me from
expanding my reach in my projects was my ability to store and retrieve
information in a way that made sense.

I had tried using Access many years back, when I was still owning a license
to Office and more often on the Windows platform.

Even then I found it frustrating because the criteria for each major entry
would change often, I couldn't predict that at the beginning of the project.
 Even Excel often didn't make sense for simpler projects.  I was most often
just storing and retrieving, not making calculations or formula.  Two
dimensions was not always convenient... well anyway I've always had various
ideas about data bouncing around in my head.

So as I approached my latest problem I started to play around with
OpenOffice since I've become a linux distro hopper, and realized I hate it.
 This particular application will be used by me and my wife often if we are
to be successful and it just better not suck all the time trying to keep up
with our data.

So I found out about couchdb in a linux journal I was thumbing thru, had a
small mention of it, but I looked it up and started reading about NoSQL
which I had only heard as a term before.  It was exciting to see that
although this has been in the works for some time, it was still just
maturing, and CouchDB seemed to be at the front.  Plus the couchdb people
seemed to want to make a non-fun thing fun.

I wanted a hosted solution so I could work from anywhere as I built up the
structure.  Right at that moment couchdb hit 1.0 and couchone opened up.
 Seemed like a good time to get started with this.

This is what I find funny about all about all of you:

You say things like, All you need to know is html and javascript and you are
good to go - Relax!

Let me tell you now, my html experience is almost completely nothing.  My
JavaScript experience is actually nothing.  That doesn't mean I'm abnormal.
 Many experienced users have never had to do more than cut and paste a bit
of html at best.  Because many people who need to store and retrieve data
are not webdesigners, and when we have to post something on the web we can
use a simple tool that will make the html and css for us like a blog or a
cms thingy.  Learning html and javascript is daunting.

I never heard of JSON before in my life - Most normal people haven't.  So
for someone outside of the JavaScript world this means only that you dropped
the A in a horror movie character's name.  REST to normal people is what
people do when they aren't doing this kind of mind numbing work - not
pushing, pulling, updating, and deleting data.  (Just because I demonstrated
that I have some knowledge of this term doesn't mean I yet know how to do
it)

I lay this out there because after looking at the links to help documents
and not finding exactly what I needed I joined the user's listserv to see
where other people where at, (I purposely didn't join the developers list).
 Then I've just sort of sat back and observed this community.

The veneer of how 'restful' and 'relaxing' this is cracked immediately.  95%
of the time I have absolutely no idea what you all are talking about.  You
don't even usually preface where your code is coming from and what its
acting on.  I've taken a few notes where stuff might give me a clue, but I
wanted to take a pulse of whom I'm writting to before I ask any questions.
 The worst is when you watch some technical tutorial that assumes  you have
had about three layers of education on technically specific topics prior to
it and through out the video the speaker says things like, "wasn't that
easy"

I am not going to apologize for my inexperience and put that well worn label
on myself.  I've been using home computers since the time you would couple a
phone's handset to the side of your typewriter like terminal.

Still I'm not scared, somehow I think that couchdb will be a solution for me
for something, If not my original application.  So I've started studying
html and even a bit of javascript, although I think I still don't know
anything.

I have two distinct problems just to start with which I will put in seperate
posts following this.  I hope whomever answers realizes that they shouldn't
assume I understand anything.

Anyway happy couching y'all.  I get the feeling eventually this document
database platform will be more accessible and those funny words you all
decided to attach to your marketing won't seem so ironic to the REST of us.

Paul Gydos

Re: let me introduce myself .. Paul G

[Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>]

On 21 Aug 2010, at 08:47, Paul Gydos wrote:

> Anyway happy couching y'all.  I get the feeling eventually this document
> database platform will be more accessible and those funny words you all
> decided to attach to your marketing won't seem so ironic to the REST of us.

Welcome, Paul. :)

This is one of the best emails I've seen on the list all year!

If we manage to keep you interested in the project via the mailing list, I'd love to see some write-ups of your experience once you're feeling more confident with the software. It could be really handy for other new users. Most of the existing documentation has been written by experienced developers, and I agree that it would be fantastic to address the balance a little bit.

Thanks!

N

Re: let me introduce myself .. Paul G

[Michael Peck <ma...@gmail.com>]

On Aug 21, 2010, at 7:24 PM, J Chris Anderson <jc...@apache.org> wrote:

> ... Damien started this project in 2005 and 5 years later we are finally at 1.0, so let me assure you that we'll keep pushing forward ...
>> 

This is precisely why I believe CouchDB is the best choice for someone looking for a web-enabled document database--the developers are not trying to rush a product to market--they are trying to develop a robust, reliable and performant product.  Ease of use for non-programmers has necessarily taken a back seat to these attributes, but it WILL come. Luckily, the level of skill required to create CouchDB applications appears to be easily attainable. 

Re: let me introduce myself .. Paul G

[J Chris Anderson <jc...@apache.org>]

On Aug 21, 2010, at 6:04 PM, Kenneth Tyler wrote:

> "It can be a bit of a challenge for the more experienced among us to help
> people like you, because not only are we teaching you CouchDB, we're
> teaching you how to program as well. thanks for reminding us of that."
> 
> this is one way to think about it. if you think that the potential users of
> couchdb will be more or less the set of people that might be potential users
> of something like ruby on rails.
> It seems to me that such an approach, while generous and helpful, will
> really put a ceiling on the growth of couchdb... it has the potential to
> replace things like ms access and filemaker... but only if ways are
> developed that let people approach it and work with it who, while they are
> skilled users, and can create complex aps, are not really "programmers".
> 
> i think it would be possible to present couchdb in a way that would make it
> accessible to this much larger group of people... but there is not much
> evidence of such resources yet
> 

yes. I would love to see things like GUI app builders, form builders, etc. Hopefully these aren't too long in coming!

Chris

> ken tyler
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:24 PM, J Chris Anderson <jc...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Noah Slater wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On 21 Aug 2010, at 08:47, Paul Gydos wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Anyway happy couching y'all.  I get the feeling eventually this document
>>>> database platform will be more accessible and those funny words you all
>>>> decided to attach to your marketing won't seem so ironic to the REST of
>> us.
>>> 
>>> Welcome, Paul. :)
>>> 
>>> This is one of the best emails I've seen on the list all year!
>> 
>> +1 you are exactly the person we're hoping to reach. however, since you are
>> among the first to walk this path, you'll have to be a trailblazer for those
>> who come later.
>> 
>> regarding the JavaScript and REST tech jargon, you oughta see what the less
>> relaxing toolkits out there sound like when they talk shop. :)
>> 
>> thanks so much for introducing yourself to us. We'll do our best to help
>> you over the stumbling blocks. It can be a bit of a challenge for the more
>> experienced among us to help people like you, because not only are we
>> teaching you CouchDB, we're teaching you how to program as well. thanks for
>> reminding us of that.
>> 
>> in the long run, we hope to see tools that mean you can get basic tasks
>> done without programming. who knows what the long run is... Damien started
>> this project in 2005 and 5 years later we are finally at 1.0, so let me
>> assure you that we'll keep pushing forward and someday (hopefully sooner
>> than 5 years from now) we'll have tools and documentation that can help a
>> non-programmer have fun storing and retrieving the data that they care
>> about. Until then, hang on to your hat!
>> 
>> Welcome,
>> 
>> Chris
>> 
>>> 
>>> If we manage to keep you interested in the project via the mailing list,
>> I'd love to see some write-ups of your experience once you're feeling more
>> confident with the software. It could be really handy for other new users.
>> Most of the existing documentation has been written by experienced
>> developers, and I agree that it would be fantastic to address the balance a
>> little bit.
>>> 
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> N
>> 
>> 

Re: let me introduce myself .. Paul G

[Kenneth Tyler <ke...@8thfold.com>]

 "It can be a bit of a challenge for the more experienced among us to help
people like you, because not only are we teaching you CouchDB, we're
teaching you how to program as well. thanks for reminding us of that."

this is one way to think about it. if you think that the potential users of
couchdb will be more or less the set of people that might be potential users
of something like ruby on rails.
It seems to me that such an approach, while generous and helpful, will
really put a ceiling on the growth of couchdb... it has the potential to
replace things like ms access and filemaker... but only if ways are
developed that let people approach it and work with it who, while they are
skilled users, and can create complex aps, are not really "programmers".

i think it would be possible to present couchdb in a way that would make it
accessible to this much larger group of people... but there is not much
evidence of such resources yet

ken tyler


On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 4:24 PM, J Chris Anderson <jc...@apache.org> wrote:

>
> On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Noah Slater wrote:
>
> >
> > On 21 Aug 2010, at 08:47, Paul Gydos wrote:
> >
> >> Anyway happy couching y'all.  I get the feeling eventually this document
> >> database platform will be more accessible and those funny words you all
> >> decided to attach to your marketing won't seem so ironic to the REST of
> us.
> >
> > Welcome, Paul. :)
> >
> > This is one of the best emails I've seen on the list all year!
>
> +1 you are exactly the person we're hoping to reach. however, since you are
> among the first to walk this path, you'll have to be a trailblazer for those
> who come later.
>
> regarding the JavaScript and REST tech jargon, you oughta see what the less
> relaxing toolkits out there sound like when they talk shop. :)
>
> thanks so much for introducing yourself to us. We'll do our best to help
> you over the stumbling blocks. It can be a bit of a challenge for the more
> experienced among us to help people like you, because not only are we
> teaching you CouchDB, we're teaching you how to program as well. thanks for
> reminding us of that.
>
> in the long run, we hope to see tools that mean you can get basic tasks
> done without programming. who knows what the long run is... Damien started
> this project in 2005 and 5 years later we are finally at 1.0, so let me
> assure you that we'll keep pushing forward and someday (hopefully sooner
> than 5 years from now) we'll have tools and documentation that can help a
> non-programmer have fun storing and retrieving the data that they care
> about. Until then, hang on to your hat!
>
> Welcome,
>
> Chris
>
> >
> > If we manage to keep you interested in the project via the mailing list,
> I'd love to see some write-ups of your experience once you're feeling more
> confident with the software. It could be really handy for other new users.
> Most of the existing documentation has been written by experienced
> developers, and I agree that it would be fantastic to address the balance a
> little bit.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > N
>
>

Re: let me introduce myself .. Paul G

[J Chris Anderson <jc...@apache.org>]

On Aug 21, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Noah Slater wrote:

> 
> On 21 Aug 2010, at 08:47, Paul Gydos wrote:
> 
>> Anyway happy couching y'all.  I get the feeling eventually this document
>> database platform will be more accessible and those funny words you all
>> decided to attach to your marketing won't seem so ironic to the REST of us.
> 
> Welcome, Paul. :)
> 
> This is one of the best emails I've seen on the list all year!

+1 you are exactly the person we're hoping to reach. however, since you are among the first to walk this path, you'll have to be a trailblazer for those who come later.

regarding the JavaScript and REST tech jargon, you oughta see what the less relaxing toolkits out there sound like when they talk shop. :)

thanks so much for introducing yourself to us. We'll do our best to help you over the stumbling blocks. It can be a bit of a challenge for the more experienced among us to help people like you, because not only are we teaching you CouchDB, we're teaching you how to program as well. thanks for reminding us of that.

in the long run, we hope to see tools that mean you can get basic tasks done without programming. who knows what the long run is... Damien started this project in 2005 and 5 years later we are finally at 1.0, so let me assure you that we'll keep pushing forward and someday (hopefully sooner than 5 years from now) we'll have tools and documentation that can help a non-programmer have fun storing and retrieving the data that they care about. Until then, hang on to your hat!

Welcome,

Chris

> 
> If we manage to keep you interested in the project via the mailing list, I'd love to see some write-ups of your experience once you're feeling more confident with the software. It could be really handy for other new users. Most of the existing documentation has been written by experienced developers, and I agree that it would be fantastic to address the balance a little bit.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> N

Re: let me introduce myself .. Paul G

[Noah Slater <ns...@apache.org>]

On 21 Aug 2010, at 08:47, Paul Gydos wrote:

> Anyway happy couching y'all.  I get the feeling eventually this document
> database platform will be more accessible and those funny words you all
> decided to attach to your marketing won't seem so ironic to the REST of us.

Welcome, Paul. :)

This is one of the best emails I've seen on the list all year!

If we manage to keep you interested in the project via the mailing list, I'd love to see some write-ups of your experience once you're feeling more confident with the software. It could be really handy for other new users. Most of the existing documentation has been written by experienced developers, and I agree that it would be fantastic to address the balance a little bit.

Thanks!

N

Re: let me introduce myself .. Paul G

[Kenneth Tyler <ke...@8thfold.com>]

Paul,
        I feel you. The active community right now is fairly small and
pretty experienced. I think couchdb is still at the "early adopter" stage
and just starting to show up for people that are not intensely into
programming. So sometimes the atmosphere seems intimidating. I come from a
windows background so there are a lot of times when I find people talking
about programs and libraries that i don't know, or assuming that everyone
has background knowledge that I don't have... but

and its a big but, so far the community has also been very patient and very
helpful to me, and worked me thru a lot of my beginner puzzles. Apparently a
lot of couchdb interaction goes by on the IRC list. For some reason I'm not
really used to IRC. However, I find that questions get answered quickly on
the list serve.

If you're located anywhere around the bay area couchio is located in
oakland, and often has "open fridays" were people can drop in and talk with
them, and there is a users group that meets every week in berkeley
http://www.meetup.com/relax-in-the-east-bay/ were a lot of the people who
come are in a position a lot like yours.

Ken Tyler



On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 12:47 AM, Paul Gydos <fa...@gydos.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My name is Paul Gydos,
>
> Although I have general background as a computer user and am a bit more
> advanced than your average user, I have more interest than technical
> background.
>
> Starting a few months back I realized that what was keeping me from
> expanding my reach in my projects was my ability to store and retrieve
> information in a way that made sense.
>
> I had tried using Access many years back, when I was still owning a license
> to Office and more often on the Windows platform.
>
> Even then I found it frustrating because the criteria for each major entry
> would change often, I couldn't predict that at the beginning of the
> project.
>  Even Excel often didn't make sense for simpler projects.  I was most often
> just storing and retrieving, not making calculations or formula.  Two
> dimensions was not always convenient... well anyway I've always had various
> ideas about data bouncing around in my head.
>
> So as I approached my latest problem I started to play around with
> OpenOffice since I've become a linux distro hopper, and realized I hate it.
>  This particular application will be used by me and my wife often if we are
> to be successful and it just better not suck all the time trying to keep up
> with our data.
>
> So I found out about couchdb in a linux journal I was thumbing thru, had a
> small mention of it, but I looked it up and started reading about NoSQL
> which I had only heard as a term before.  It was exciting to see that
> although this has been in the works for some time, it was still just
> maturing, and CouchDB seemed to be at the front.  Plus the couchdb people
> seemed to want to make a non-fun thing fun.
>
> I wanted a hosted solution so I could work from anywhere as I built up the
> structure.  Right at that moment couchdb hit 1.0 and couchone opened up.
>  Seemed like a good time to get started with this.
>
> This is what I find funny about all about all of you:
>
> You say things like, All you need to know is html and javascript and you
> are
> good to go - Relax!
>
> Let me tell you now, my html experience is almost completely nothing.  My
> JavaScript experience is actually nothing.  That doesn't mean I'm abnormal.
>  Many experienced users have never had to do more than cut and paste a bit
> of html at best.  Because many people who need to store and retrieve data
> are not webdesigners, and when we have to post something on the web we can
> use a simple tool that will make the html and css for us like a blog or a
> cms thingy.  Learning html and javascript is daunting.
>
> I never heard of JSON before in my life - Most normal people haven't.  So
> for someone outside of the JavaScript world this means only that you
> dropped
> the A in a horror movie character's name.  REST to normal people is what
> people do when they aren't doing this kind of mind numbing work - not
> pushing, pulling, updating, and deleting data.  (Just because I
> demonstrated
> that I have some knowledge of this term doesn't mean I yet know how to do
> it)
>
> I lay this out there because after looking at the links to help documents
> and not finding exactly what I needed I joined the user's listserv to see
> where other people where at, (I purposely didn't join the developers list).
>  Then I've just sort of sat back and observed this community.
>
> The veneer of how 'restful' and 'relaxing' this is cracked immediately.
>  95%
> of the time I have absolutely no idea what you all are talking about.  You
> don't even usually preface where your code is coming from and what its
> acting on.  I've taken a few notes where stuff might give me a clue, but I
> wanted to take a pulse of whom I'm writting to before I ask any questions.
>  The worst is when you watch some technical tutorial that assumes  you have
> had about three layers of education on technically specific topics prior to
> it and through out the video the speaker says things like, "wasn't that
> easy"
>
> I am not going to apologize for my inexperience and put that well worn
> label
> on myself.  I've been using home computers since the time you would couple
> a
> phone's handset to the side of your typewriter like terminal.
>
> Still I'm not scared, somehow I think that couchdb will be a solution for
> me
> for something, If not my original application.  So I've started studying
> html and even a bit of javascript, although I think I still don't know
> anything.
>
> I have two distinct problems just to start with which I will put in
> seperate
> posts following this.  I hope whomever answers realizes that they shouldn't
> assume I understand anything.
>
> Anyway happy couching y'all.  I get the feeling eventually this document
> database platform will be more accessible and those funny words you all
> decided to attach to your marketing won't seem so ironic to the REST of us.
>
> Paul Gydos
>