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Posted to fop-dev@xmlgraphics.apache.org by Gennadiy Tsarenkov <g....@sam-solutions.net> on 2006/05/03 16:14:41 UTC
Re[2]: Question about status of JEuclid and possible inclusion in FOP
Hello Jeremias,
I'm not saying that this is simple, I'm just saying pre-conditions,
when we would be able to continue invest our efforts into integration
into FOP. You are absolutely right, saying that there should be
interest of the public community to such a work. At present, we get
first feedback/requests on our work after about 5 month of absolute
silence. This basically means that there is no demand on this feature.
Either peoples are using other solutions or they are simply want to
have additional feature in a list which says MathML support without
any real background for that.
Moreover, what I've learned so far is that FOP is not trying to get
publication ready PDF's (what is my case) rather then readable XML.
Correct me, if I'm wrong.
The reasons for rare commits is that on our side there is more then
one developer working on the project. While we do not have any
feedback, we do not update public repository and just using our
private one. There is another weak reason, why I cannot made release
on sourceforge.net. I have only CVS commit rights to the JEuclid
project and cannot make any releases.
My perception is that we will continue making half-year commits to the
sf.net repository with patched FOP and JEuclid which fully covers our
needs. If somebody would be interested for somebody to integrate into
FOP thunk, s/he is welcome.
--
Best regards,
Gennadiy mailto:g.tsarenkov@sam-solutions.net
Wednesday, May 3, 2006, 3:13:11 PM, you wrote:
JM> I forgot to CC the jeuclid list when I replied to Max. Here's the link:
JM> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/xmlgraphics-fop-dev/200604.mbox/%3c20060430093918.BC13.DEV@jeremias-maerki.ch%3e
JM> Just in case...
JM> The whole thing about bringing JEuclid into the XML Graphics project is
JM> not that simple. As I said before, this would be a new subproject which
JM> means that it would have to go through the Incubator and not only the IP
JM> clearance process. However, without a live community (at least >2 active
JM> developers) around the thing it has practically no chance to succeed. I
JM> have to clarify my position here: I'm not actively using MathML and
JM> that's why I don't have much time to help here. I'm willing to help
JM> faciliating a migration if the preconditions are met. The problem is
JM> that I don't see they are. JEuclid is not unlike Barcode4J (my baby)
JM> which is also not going to come here mostly because there's no live
JM> developer community there. Last fall, I was hoping that JEuclid may gain
JM> some new momentum, but as far as I can see the whole thing was a single
JM> commit to CVS in December and that was it. Please be aware that such a
JM> migration is A LOT OF WORK and takes considerable energy. The legal work
JM> alone is a project in itself.
JM> So, IMO you should work towards a JEuclid release from within the
JM> SourceForge project. JEuclid is better served that way. People
JM> interested in MathML should gather there and strengthen JEuclid from
JM> within first. FOP can still use JEuclid for MathML handling. What I can
JM> help with right now is to do a review of JEuclid and update the MathML
JM> extension for FOP Trunk. This extension can either live here in FOP or
JM> in JEuclid. I don't care so much. When the JEuclid release is available
JM> and the FOP extension updated we can bundle JEuclid with FOP as we've
JM> already decided last year. Same for Barcode4J, BTW.
JM> If there are strong voices from within the XML Graphics project to adopt
JM> JEuclid we can reevaluate but until then I don't see JEuclid coming to
JM> the ASF. As a prebuilt JAR under a compatible license, yes, but not as
JM> source code.
JM> On 03.05.2006 13:17:04 Gennadiy Tsarenkov wrote:
>> Dear Max,
>>
>> results of our work (not the latest one, but still good enough for
>> publishing) is available from cvs.sourceforge.net/cvsroot/jeuclid. Now
>> I'm waiting for feedback from anyone of Apache FOP members on review
>> the JEuclid code. At the moment, I have no idea whether some work has
>> been done in this regard.
>>
>> Present status of our work (we still performing some regression tests,
>> but its 99% already done) is the following:
>> - we have merged JEuclid with FOP 0.20.5 (version available under sf.net
>> is based on one of the pre 0.20.4).
>> - we remove all references to AWT library, so now JEuclid is able to
>> work on "screenless" servers without XWindows configuration.
>> - support "badly" fonts (e.g. Arial Unicode MS, which we are enforced
>> to use for MathML rendering).
>> Due to last two issues we extended metric files with extended
>> information about symbol location within the glyph.
>>
>> Plans for merging into 0.90 and later are not exists so far because we
>> do have to improve the following functionality of the FOP itself to
>> satisfy our needs (these features are done by us for FOP 0.20.5).
>> 1. Support of embedded PDF's using itext library.
>> 2. Support of the specific logging into files without any use of
>> console (from my point of view, this is absolutely dummy requirement
>> and we can use log4j, but I'm not in charge to modify it).
>> 3. Support of Arial Unicode MS as TYPE1 font, and not as TYPE0 font.
>> 4. Support of "phantom" attribute on page-sequence. To hide particular
>> pages in PDF result file but take them into account in page numbering.
>> 5. Support both JDK 1.3 and 1.4. This requires us to integrate support
>> of SAXON parser for JDK 1.4 due to nasty bug in xalan shipped with JDK
>> 1.4. However for JDK 1.3 we still have to keep support of xalan.
>> 6. Improving text layout within the merged table cells for lists
>> (I'guess that for FOP 0.90 it is not the issue anymore).
>> 7. Implement specific DTD lookup algorithm (e.g. search for DTD not
>> only in the XML location but also in current directory).
>>
>> >From one hand we would like to have the JEuclid integrated into FOP
>> ASAP, however, we cannot follow release schedule of the FOP due to
>> very major changes of FOP due to features above.
>>
>> As far as I understood Jeremias, he recommended us wait until FOray
>> will be integrated into main branch, but this work still not completed
>> (or even canceled???).
>>
>> Concerning licensing issue. We have contacted the JEuclid original
>> publishers and got their permission to re-publish JEuclid to the AFL
>> license as required for FOP integration. Internally, from our side we
>> got all the permissions to publish our work as well. We can commit all
>> necessary statement as required by ASF once our work will be accepted
>> for publication.
>>
>> Concerning your issues:
>> - I would say this is good idea to include jeuclid into xmlgraphics.
>> However, we need some FOP developers comments on the extended metric
>> file. Otherwise, output will be useless in producing paper-ready
>> PDF's.
>> - We already doing that, however only for the TIFF format. This can be
>> easily done by means of fo:external-graphics in the stylesheet (if I
>> understood your work right).
>> - This feature we are mostly interested in. At the moment this
>> implemented by means of xsl:copy-of due to misinterpretation of
>> character entities in xsl:copy implementation.
>>
>> You are absolutely free to re-use our results in any way under terms
>> of AFL.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Gennadiy
>>
>>
>> Saturday, April 29, 2006, 10:33:17 PM, you wrote:
>>
>> MB> Dear Gennady,
>> MB> Dear developers,
>>
>> MB> I've just recently played around with mathml and tried to include
>> MB> that in my fop documents. I've found several tools, and among others
>> MB> "jeuclid". jeuclid is very complete, it is just missing a few adapter
>> MB> classes. I've written a small one to convert mml to svg and it works
>> MB> just fine.
>>
>> MB> I've then found out that there was work done merging jeuclid into
>> MB> fop / xmlgraphics. What is the current status of this? What are the
>> MB> license / technical issues? Is this desired at all?
>>
>> MB> Here is what I would like to see:
>> MB> - include jeuclid in xmlgraphics
>> MB> - add code to fop to support the inclusion of "mml" documents as
>> MB> external images.
>> MB> - add code to fop to support mml embedded within fo documents
>>
>> MB> i would be willing to provide the first two items, if it is legal to
>> MB> do so...
>>
>> MB> Max
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Gennadiy mailto:g.tsarenkov@sam-solutions.net
JM> Jeremias Maerki
Re: Question about status of JEuclid and possible inclusion in FOP
Posted by Jeremias Maerki <de...@jeremias-maerki.ch>.
Hi Gennadiy
On 03.05.2006 16:14:41 Gennadiy Tsarenkov wrote:
> Hello Jeremias,
>
> I'm not saying that this is simple, I'm just saying pre-conditions,
> when we would be able to continue invest our efforts into integration
> into FOP. You are absolutely right, saying that there should be
> interest of the public community to such a work. At present, we get
> first feedback/requests on our work after about 5 month of absolute
> silence. This basically means that there is no demand on this feature.
> Either peoples are using other solutions or they are simply want to
> have additional feature in a list which says MathML support without
> any real background for that.
> Moreover, what I've learned so far is that FOP is not trying to get
> publication ready PDF's (what is my case) rather then readable XML.
> Correct me, if I'm wrong.
It's probably more so that people from the business document side are
more likely to invest in FOP than those from the publishing department
do. But the good news is that one of my clients requests some level of
PDF/X support which clearly goes in the direction of publication ready
PDFs.
> The reasons for rare commits is that on our side there is more then
> one developer working on the project. While we do not have any
> feedback, we do not update public repository and just using our
> private one. There is another weak reason, why I cannot made release
> on sourceforge.net. I have only CVS commit rights to the JEuclid
> project and cannot make any releases.
Then maybe you should see if you can get admin privileges because you'll
exclude probably more than 80% of the possible users if you don't do
releases. Some people are simply not into getting source code from CVS.
The same applies to FOP, BTW, because the license policy dictates that
we shall not use unreleased JARs in our releases. Which means we're
basically stuck with JEuclid 2.0 for now.
> My perception is that we will continue making half-year commits to the
> sf.net repository with patched FOP and JEuclid which fully covers our
> needs.
Not a very promising prospect. That's certainly not how you can attract
possible users.
> If somebody would be interested for somebody to integrate into
> FOP thunk, s/he is welcome.
I'll handle that.
<snip/>
Jeremias Maerki
Re: Question about status of JEuclid and possible inclusion in FOP
Posted by Max Berger <ma...@berger.name>.
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Dear Gennadiy,
thank you for your very extensive answer. At least now I know what the
current status is. So for now I'll use jeuclid externally to convert so
svg and then include that into fop.
Gennadiy Tsarenkov wrote:
> The reasons for rare commits is that on our side there is more then
> one developer working on the project. While we do not have any
> feedback, we do not update public repository and just using our
> private one. There is another weak reason, why I cannot made release
> on sourceforge.net. I have only CVS commit rights to the JEuclid
> project and cannot make any releases.
I would like to see your changes in the jeuclid cvs repository. I have
some minor additions to jeuclid where I would like to provide patches for.
Thanks
Max
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