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Posted to log4j-dev@logging.apache.org by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com> on 2003/11/07 11:41:18 UTC
So what happened with trace?
"Ignore it to death" ..
Excellent.
E.
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Re: So what happened with trace?
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
| At 03:22 PM 11/10/2003 +0100, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
| >On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
| >
| >|
| >| I think the text could benefit from some structure.
| >
| >I used the following typographical features to group and structure the
| >text:
| >
| > * Headings
| > * Bold (for sub-headings)
| > * Bullet points
| > * Fixed width fonts
| > * Horizontal bars/rules
|
| I heavily edited the text. If you feel that I have done it injustice,
| please accept my apologies.
You took away lots of stuff. I would like you to re-add points about:
* performance overhead (Unless the source is messed with. Wrapping is
slower (to preserve the proper class-name stash), and custom levels
require a single-arg method invocation (along with what happens inside
that method), instead of a no-args method invocation.)
* "writing overhead" (for the "level-extension" type) - it is not as
elegant as with all the other levels - even if this would be the most
frequently used level. You could wrap it (like commons logging), that is
not very good, definately not performance wise.
* need to modify existing code (or at least make wrappers or other stuff)
* Info is another thing (as explained in the other mail).
| >Btw; the excellent argument going something like "so many people already
| >have had to make the trace level themselves, that by incorporating it into
| >log4j natively, we might break their hacks to depserately get the said
| >feature" was really something!
|
| That's not from me, probably from Yoav. Although compatibility is a very
| important consideration, compatibility is not a good reason against the
| TRACE level (assuming that JBoss et al. can cope with the change.)
Well, that argument is still standing on the page, though.
Endre.
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Re: So what happened with trace?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
At 03:22 PM 11/10/2003 +0100, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>
>|
>| I think the text could benefit from some structure.
>
>I used the following typographical features to group and structure the
>text:
>
> * Headings
> * Bold (for sub-headings)
> * Bullet points
> * Fixed width fonts
> * Horizontal bars/rules
I heavily edited the text. If you feel that I have done it injustice,
please accept my apologies.
>Btw; the excellent argument going something like "so many people already
>have had to make the trace level themselves, that by incorporating it into
>log4j natively, we might break their hacks to depserately get the said
>feature" was really something!
That's not from me, probably from Yoav. Although compatibility is a very
important consideration, compatibility is not a good reason against the
TRACE level (assuming that JBoss et al. can cope with the change.)
>;)
>
>Endre.
--
Ceki Gülcü
For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual"
ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp
import org.apache.Facetime;
ApacheCon US 2003, 18-21 November http://apachecon.com/
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Re: So what happened with trace?
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
|
| I think the text could benefit from some structure.
I used the following typographical features to group and structure the
text:
* Headings
* Bold (for sub-headings)
* Bullet points
* Fixed width fonts
* Horizontal bars/rules
Btw; the excellent argument going something like "so many people already
have had to make the trace level themselves, that by incorporating it into
log4j natively, we might break their hacks to depserately get the said
feature" was really something!
;)
Endre.
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Re: So what happened with trace?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
I think the text could benefit from some structure.
At 10:12 AM 11/10/2003 +0100, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
>|
>| Here is a Wiki page where people can express their views.
>| http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?Log4JProjectPages/TraceDebate
>
>I've pasted some of the recent discussion there.
>
>Endre.
--
Ceki Gülcü
For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual"
ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp
import org.apache.Facetime;
ApacheCon US 2003, 18-21 November http://apachecon.com/
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Re: So what happened with trace?
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
|
| Here is a Wiki page where people can express their views.
| http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?Log4JProjectPages/TraceDebate
I've pasted some of the recent discussion there.
Endre.
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Re: So what happened with trace?
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 09:57 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>
> | While everyone is very much encouraged make contributions, this does
> | not mean that we (the developers) have to immediately agree with
> every
> | request. In the particular case of the TRACE level, I think more time
> | is needed to reach a decision.
>
> Seen the pdf from jboss' lawyers? ("geronimo-dev")
>
> They're using jboss' Trace level extension to log4j as an exhibit -
> =since
> apparently also Geronimo is making this extension=!!
> That's cute; even Apache's internal projects have to extend the log4j
> package with trace (even the largest such project ever in Apache's Java
> history?), since the log4j developers/maintainers refuse to add it.
What's really interesting about this is that JBoss appears to have
violated the Apache license in doing so, and then submitted it as an
example.
LOL
>
> So both Jboss and Geronimo have to extend log4j by adding trace - two
> quite "largish" Java projects. Is that valid as an argument for
> including
> that level?
>
> E.
>
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>
>
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geirm@optonline.net
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Re: So what happened with trace?
Posted by Endre Stølsvik <En...@Stolsvik.com>.
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
| While everyone is very much encouraged make contributions, this does
| not mean that we (the developers) have to immediately agree with every
| request. In the particular case of the TRACE level, I think more time
| is needed to reach a decision.
Seen the pdf from jboss' lawyers? ("geronimo-dev")
They're using jboss' Trace level extension to log4j as an exhibit - =since
apparently also Geronimo is making this extension=!!
That's cute; even Apache's internal projects have to extend the log4j
package with trace (even the largest such project ever in Apache's Java
history?), since the log4j developers/maintainers refuse to add it.
So both Jboss and Geronimo have to extend log4j by adding trace - two
quite "largish" Java projects. Is that valid as an argument for including
that level?
E.
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RE: So what happened with trace?
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
At 01:57 PM 11/7/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>It seems that most people on the list agreed to wait
>for for the publication of the domain concept.
>
>Btw., it looks as if you have a misconception on how
>open-source works. A lot of effort has gone into
>log4j development, and you can get the results *for free*.
>If at all, then we as users owe something
>to the developers, not the other way around.
>Of course, you can make proposals for change, you
>can bring forward your arguments, etc. But if the
>developers decide not to make that change, being
>insistent doesn't seem to be an appropriate attitude.
+1
While everyone is very much encouraged make contributions, this does
not mean that we (the developers) have to immediately agree with every
request. In the particular case of the TRACE level, I think more time
is needed to reach a decision.
Here is a Wiki page where people can express their views.
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?Log4JProjectPages/TraceDebate
>--Wolf
--
Ceki Gülcü
For log4j documentation consider "The complete log4j manual"
ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp
import org.apache.Facetime;
ApacheCon US 2003, 18-21 November http://apachecon.com/
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RE: So what happened with trace?
Posted by Wolf Siberski <si...@learninglab.de>.
It seems that most people on the list agreed to wait
for for the publication of the domain concept.
Btw., it looks as if you have a misconception on how
open-source works. A lot of effort has gone into
log4j development, and you can get the results *for free*.
If at all, then we as users owe something
to the developers, not the other way around.
Of course, you can make proposals for change, you
can bring forward your arguments, etc. But if the
developers decide not to make that change, being
insistent doesn't seem to be an appropriate attitude.
--Wolf
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