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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> on 2007/03/07 18:05:21 UTC

Looking for an incubation champion

@Members:
  I have recently joined the development
team of an OSS project, Morph, that captures the
spirit of Jakarta commons-convert but where the
convert project stagnated, Morph is a well-evolved,
though still not 100% complete, library whose
development I feel would benefit greatly from The
Apache Way and would make a worthy ASF project. 
Object conversion seems to be a woefully under-served
subject in the Java OSS space, despite the ubiquity of
the need for it (however well-hidden it may tend to
be) in enterprise Java development.  I have contacted
a few of you personally already, but having received
no bites as yet I am widening my audience one last
time before giving up on this.

You can learn more about this library at:

http://morph.sourceforge.net

Thanks,
Matt



 
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.

It is short for the dutch "Met vriendelijke groeten", which translates to english as "With kind
regards" :)

Mvgr,
Martin

Matt Benson wrote:
> Thanks for the reply, Martin.  BTW, and not to derail
> my own topic, but what is "Mvgr?"  :)
> 
> -Matt
> 
> --- Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> 
>> I've already have a promise to help out Julius with
>> incubation and am currently am mentor for
>> Trinidad, so I don't think it is wise for me to add
>> another effort to my list.
>>
>> Mvgr,
>> Martin
>>
>> Matt Benson wrote:
>>> @Members:
>>>   I have recently joined the development
>>> team of an OSS project, Morph, that captures the
>>> spirit of Jakarta commons-convert but where the
>>> convert project stagnated, Morph is a
>> well-evolved,
>>> though still not 100% complete, library whose
>>> development I feel would benefit greatly from The
>>> Apache Way and would make a worthy ASF project. 
>>> Object conversion seems to be a woefully
>> under-served
>>> subject in the Java OSS space, despite the
>> ubiquity of
>>> the need for it (however well-hidden it may tend
>> to
>>> be) in enterprise Java development.  I have
>> contacted
>>> a few of you personally already, but having
>> received
>>> no bites as yet I am widening my audience one last
>>> time before giving up on this.
>>>
>>> You can learn more about this library at:
>>>
>>> http://morph.sourceforge.net
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
>>> Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the
>> forecast
>>> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
>>>
>> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
>>>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
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>> general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>> general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
>  
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.

Thanks for the reply, Martin.  BTW, and not to derail
my own topic, but what is "Mvgr?"  :)

-Matt

--- Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:

> I've already have a promise to help out Julius with
> incubation and am currently am mentor for
> Trinidad, so I don't think it is wise for me to add
> another effort to my list.
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> Matt Benson wrote:
> > @Members:
> >   I have recently joined the development
> > team of an OSS project, Morph, that captures the
> > spirit of Jakarta commons-convert but where the
> > convert project stagnated, Morph is a
> well-evolved,
> > though still not 100% complete, library whose
> > development I feel would benefit greatly from The
> > Apache Way and would make a worthy ASF project. 
> > Object conversion seems to be a woefully
> under-served
> > subject in the Java OSS space, despite the
> ubiquity of
> > the need for it (however well-hidden it may tend
> to
> > be) in enterprise Java development.  I have
> contacted
> > a few of you personally already, but having
> received
> > no bites as yet I am widening my audience one last
> > time before giving up on this.
> > 
> > You can learn more about this library at:
> > 
> > http://morph.sourceforge.net
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Matt
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the
> forecast
> > with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
> >
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
> > 
> >
>
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> general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
>
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> 
> 



 
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.

I've already have a promise to help out Julius with incubation and am currently am mentor for
Trinidad, so I don't think it is wise for me to add another effort to my list.

Mvgr,
Martin

Matt Benson wrote:
> @Members:
>   I have recently joined the development
> team of an OSS project, Morph, that captures the
> spirit of Jakarta commons-convert but where the
> convert project stagnated, Morph is a well-evolved,
> though still not 100% complete, library whose
> development I feel would benefit greatly from The
> Apache Way and would make a worthy ASF project. 
> Object conversion seems to be a woefully under-served
> subject in the Java OSS space, despite the ubiquity of
> the need for it (however well-hidden it may tend to
> be) in enterprise Java development.  I have contacted
> a few of you personally already, but having received
> no bites as yet I am widening my audience one last
> time before giving up on this.
> 
> You can learn more about this library at:
> 
> http://morph.sourceforge.net
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt
> 
> 
> 
>  
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> 
> 
> 

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.

> On another note : If there will be no mentors for the project from Jakarta, I don't see a reason
> that Jakarta be the sponsor of the project. Not that this is a documented Incubator policy however,
> but since 1) we have a lot of people who are allowed to be a member 

Replace member with mentor :) People who are allowed are normally members of the ASF.


Mvgr,
Martin

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.

On 3/9/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Apologies for the top post.  This puts us back to
> square one, with noone, at least from Jakarta,
> apparently interested in being champion, rendering the
> whole discussion moot.  ;)  Is there an appropriate
> next step other than simply forgetting about
> incubating?

I would be prepared to do this - although I'm pretty much a newbie in
incubator terms (I joined general@incubator a few months back and have
mostly sat and watched) so probably almost anyone else would be better
qualified - and if such a person comes along would happily step back -
no offence taken.

Niall

> -Matt
>
> --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Niall Pemberton wrote:
> > > > On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Matt Benson wrote:
> > > >> > --- Niall Pemberton
> > <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > [SNIP]
> > > >> >> I didn't know whether this had been done
> > before in
> > > >> >> Commons - but seems
> > > >> >> that it has for the Commons CSV component
> > back in
> > > >> >> December 2005:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> >
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Actually I knew about this but thought I
> > remembered
> > > >> > someone (Henri?) saying later that having
> > gotten the
> > > >> > code in this way might not have been the best
> > choice
> > > >> > in retrospect.  Does that ring any bells with
> > anyone?
> > > >>
> > > >> Yep that rings a bell and going down that route
> > again, is not
> > > >> something that has my support for
> > > >> *new* components (which this is). If the code
> > is destined for an
> > > >> existing codebase, we could do the
> > > >> IP route, else I would like to see some level
> > of incubation (besides
> > > >> handling ip). See the
> > > >> discussion on not-yet-commons ssl.
> > > >
> > > > I'm wondering why? Seems to me that this is a
> > slightly different
> > > > situation to either CSV or the SSL situations
> > since one of the
> > > > developers is an existing ASF and Commons
> > committer.
> > >
> > > There are new committers involved. With CSV Henri
> > is a committer (not talking karma here) (and me
> > > too, although we are both not very active). I
> > think when new people are involved incubation
> > (besides
> > > legal) should occur (even though the community
> > import isn't that big, compared to similar situation
> > > like activemq, servicemix, etc, where the core
> > developers are actually ASF Members)
> > >
> > > In case of this scenario (and ssl) I "envision"
> > this for incubation :
> > >
> > > - Get the people on board as a committer on the
> > initial proposal
> > > - Have them *show* that they are here to stay for
> > an x amount of time
> > > - Ideally have the normal exit criteria, although
> > I can imagine for commons a slightly weaker exit
> > > strategy may be adapted (don't think the incubator
> > thinks that eg 3 committers on a project is a
> > > vibrant community, although within commons it
> > definitely will be!).
> > > - Get a release out.
> > >
> > > If someone starts hacking on code in the sandbox I
> > am ok with that, but rather not see new code
> > > again hitting the sandbox, since we "don't" accept
> > new committers on sandbox components and it
> > > doesn't have the ability to have a release
> > (disclaimer : I became committer in Jakarta because
> > of a
> > > sandbox component, ahum).
> > >
> > > I highly prefer that incubating commons components
> > to use the commons-dev and commons-user list,
> > > since to do development however, since it would be
> > quite a cultural shock when moving from incubator
> > > specific lists to the commons ones.
> > >
> > > Disclaimer : this is just a brain dump and I would
> > love to see some new projects at Jakarta, but I
> > > think we also need to figure out how we should
> > handle that in a constructive way and prevent
> > > feedparser and csv situations.
> >
> > OK, good explanation - sounds reasonable to me.
> > You're right going the
> > incubator route would bring Matt Sgarlata in with
> > the code which would
> > be more desirable.
> >
> > Niall
> >
> > > Mvgr,
> > > Martin
> > >

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com>.

On 3/9/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 3/9/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Apologies for the top post.  This puts us back to
> > > square one, with noone, at least from Jakarta,
> > > apparently interested in being champion, rendering
> > the
> > > whole discussion moot.  ;)  Is there an
> > appropriate
> > > next step other than simply forgetting about
> > > incubating?
> >
> > No need to forget it if you don't find a champion
> > soon.  Patience and
> > continued development of the project and the
> > community around it can
> > pay off.  More interest may come in time.  For
> > instance, i've no time
> > to take up the cause of a project that i'm not using
> > at work, but
> > you've piqued my curiousity about the project.  When
> > next i need
> > conversion support such as it provides, i'll be sure
> > to investigate
> > Morph more deeply as an alternative to just
> > BeanUtils.  Then, schedule
> > permitting, i might be willing to help with
> > incubation, as it would be
> > more in my interest.  I wouldn't be surprised if
> > others are thinking
> > much as i am here.
> >
>
> Thanks for chiming in with that.  :)  I do intend in
> any case to continue to help Morph develop to the
> point of being the serious contender that it deserves
> to be; I just would rather do it in the setting of the
> ASF.

Yeah, i don't blame you.  :)

> br,
> Matt
>
> [SNIP]
>
>
>
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.

--- Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/9/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Apologies for the top post.  This puts us back to
> > square one, with noone, at least from Jakarta,
> > apparently interested in being champion, rendering
> the
> > whole discussion moot.  ;)  Is there an
> appropriate
> > next step other than simply forgetting about
> > incubating?
> 
> No need to forget it if you don't find a champion
> soon.  Patience and
> continued development of the project and the
> community around it can
> pay off.  More interest may come in time.  For
> instance, i've no time
> to take up the cause of a project that i'm not using
> at work, but
> you've piqued my curiousity about the project.  When
> next i need
> conversion support such as it provides, i'll be sure
> to investigate
> Morph more deeply as an alternative to just
> BeanUtils.  Then, schedule
> permitting, i might be willing to help with
> incubation, as it would be
> more in my interest.  I wouldn't be surprised if
> others are thinking
> much as i am here.
> 

Thanks for chiming in with that.  :)  I do intend in
any case to continue to help Morph develop to the
point of being the serious contender that it deserves
to be; I just would rather do it in the setting of the
ASF.

br,
Matt

[SNIP]


 
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Nathan Bubna <nb...@gmail.com>.

On 3/9/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Apologies for the top post.  This puts us back to
> square one, with noone, at least from Jakarta,
> apparently interested in being champion, rendering the
> whole discussion moot.  ;)  Is there an appropriate
> next step other than simply forgetting about
> incubating?

No need to forget it if you don't find a champion soon.  Patience and
continued development of the project and the community around it can
pay off.  More interest may come in time.  For instance, i've no time
to take up the cause of a project that i'm not using at work, but
you've piqued my curiousity about the project.  When next i need
conversion support such as it provides, i'll be sure to investigate
Morph more deeply as an alternative to just BeanUtils.  Then, schedule
permitting, i might be willing to help with incubation, as it would be
more in my interest.  I wouldn't be surprised if others are thinking
much as i am here.

> -Matt
>
> --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Niall Pemberton wrote:
> > > > On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
> > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Matt Benson wrote:
> > > >> > --- Niall Pemberton
> > <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > [SNIP]
> > > >> >> I didn't know whether this had been done
> > before in
> > > >> >> Commons - but seems
> > > >> >> that it has for the Commons CSV component
> > back in
> > > >> >> December 2005:
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >
> >
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Actually I knew about this but thought I
> > remembered
> > > >> > someone (Henri?) saying later that having
> > gotten the
> > > >> > code in this way might not have been the best
> > choice
> > > >> > in retrospect.  Does that ring any bells with
> > anyone?
> > > >>
> > > >> Yep that rings a bell and going down that route
> > again, is not
> > > >> something that has my support for
> > > >> *new* components (which this is). If the code
> > is destined for an
> > > >> existing codebase, we could do the
> > > >> IP route, else I would like to see some level
> > of incubation (besides
> > > >> handling ip). See the
> > > >> discussion on not-yet-commons ssl.
> > > >
> > > > I'm wondering why? Seems to me that this is a
> > slightly different
> > > > situation to either CSV or the SSL situations
> > since one of the
> > > > developers is an existing ASF and Commons
> > committer.
> > >
> > > There are new committers involved. With CSV Henri
> > is a committer (not talking karma here) (and me
> > > too, although we are both not very active). I
> > think when new people are involved incubation
> > (besides
> > > legal) should occur (even though the community
> > import isn't that big, compared to similar situation
> > > like activemq, servicemix, etc, where the core
> > developers are actually ASF Members)
> > >
> > > In case of this scenario (and ssl) I "envision"
> > this for incubation :
> > >
> > > - Get the people on board as a committer on the
> > initial proposal
> > > - Have them *show* that they are here to stay for
> > an x amount of time
> > > - Ideally have the normal exit criteria, although
> > I can imagine for commons a slightly weaker exit
> > > strategy may be adapted (don't think the incubator
> > thinks that eg 3 committers on a project is a
> > > vibrant community, although within commons it
> > definitely will be!).
> > > - Get a release out.
> > >
> > > If someone starts hacking on code in the sandbox I
> > am ok with that, but rather not see new code
> > > again hitting the sandbox, since we "don't" accept
> > new committers on sandbox components and it
> > > doesn't have the ability to have a release
> > (disclaimer : I became committer in Jakarta because
> > of a
> > > sandbox component, ahum).
> > >
> > > I highly prefer that incubating commons components
> > to use the commons-dev and commons-user list,
> > > since to do development however, since it would be
> > quite a cultural shock when moving from incubator
> > > specific lists to the commons ones.
> > >
> > > Disclaimer : this is just a brain dump and I would
> > love to see some new projects at Jakarta, but I
> > > think we also need to figure out how we should
> > handle that in a constructive way and prevent
> > > feedparser and csv situations.
> >
> > OK, good explanation - sounds reasonable to me.
> > You're right going the
> > incubator route would bring Matt Sgarlata in with
> > the code which would
> > be more desirable.
> >
> > Niall
> >
> > > Mvgr,
> > > Martin
> > >
> > >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> > general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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>
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.

Apologies for the top post.  This puts us back to
square one, with noone, at least from Jakarta,
apparently interested in being champion, rendering the
whole discussion moot.  ;)  Is there an appropriate
next step other than simply forgetting about
incubating?

-Matt

--- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > Niall Pemberton wrote:
> > > On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Matt Benson wrote:
> > >> > --- Niall Pemberton
> <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> > [SNIP]
> > >> >> I didn't know whether this had been done
> before in
> > >> >> Commons - but seems
> > >> >> that it has for the Commons CSV component
> back in
> > >> >> December 2005:
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
>
http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html
> > >> >
> > >> > Actually I knew about this but thought I
> remembered
> > >> > someone (Henri?) saying later that having
> gotten the
> > >> > code in this way might not have been the best
> choice
> > >> > in retrospect.  Does that ring any bells with
> anyone?
> > >>
> > >> Yep that rings a bell and going down that route
> again, is not
> > >> something that has my support for
> > >> *new* components (which this is). If the code
> is destined for an
> > >> existing codebase, we could do the
> > >> IP route, else I would like to see some level
> of incubation (besides
> > >> handling ip). See the
> > >> discussion on not-yet-commons ssl.
> > >
> > > I'm wondering why? Seems to me that this is a
> slightly different
> > > situation to either CSV or the SSL situations
> since one of the
> > > developers is an existing ASF and Commons
> committer.
> >
> > There are new committers involved. With CSV Henri
> is a committer (not talking karma here) (and me
> > too, although we are both not very active). I
> think when new people are involved incubation
> (besides
> > legal) should occur (even though the community
> import isn't that big, compared to similar situation
> > like activemq, servicemix, etc, where the core
> developers are actually ASF Members)
> >
> > In case of this scenario (and ssl) I "envision"
> this for incubation :
> >
> > - Get the people on board as a committer on the
> initial proposal
> > - Have them *show* that they are here to stay for
> an x amount of time
> > - Ideally have the normal exit criteria, although
> I can imagine for commons a slightly weaker exit
> > strategy may be adapted (don't think the incubator
> thinks that eg 3 committers on a project is a
> > vibrant community, although within commons it
> definitely will be!).
> > - Get a release out.
> >
> > If someone starts hacking on code in the sandbox I
> am ok with that, but rather not see new code
> > again hitting the sandbox, since we "don't" accept
> new committers on sandbox components and it
> > doesn't have the ability to have a release
> (disclaimer : I became committer in Jakarta because
> of a
> > sandbox component, ahum).
> >
> > I highly prefer that incubating commons components
> to use the commons-dev and commons-user list,
> > since to do development however, since it would be
> quite a cultural shock when moving from incubator
> > specific lists to the commons ones.
> >
> > Disclaimer : this is just a brain dump and I would
> love to see some new projects at Jakarta, but I
> > think we also need to figure out how we should
> handle that in a constructive way and prevent
> > feedparser and csv situations.
> 
> OK, good explanation - sounds reasonable to me.
> You're right going the
> incubator route would bring Matt Sgarlata in with
> the code which would
> be more desirable.
> 
> Niall
> 
> > Mvgr,
> > Martin
> >
> >
>
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> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> general-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
> 
>
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.

On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>
> Niall Pemberton wrote:
> > On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Matt Benson wrote:
> >> > --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > [SNIP]
> >> >> I didn't know whether this had been done before in
> >> >> Commons - but seems
> >> >> that it has for the Commons CSV component back in
> >> >> December 2005:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html
> >> >
> >> > Actually I knew about this but thought I remembered
> >> > someone (Henri?) saying later that having gotten the
> >> > code in this way might not have been the best choice
> >> > in retrospect.  Does that ring any bells with anyone?
> >>
> >> Yep that rings a bell and going down that route again, is not
> >> something that has my support for
> >> *new* components (which this is). If the code is destined for an
> >> existing codebase, we could do the
> >> IP route, else I would like to see some level of incubation (besides
> >> handling ip). See the
> >> discussion on not-yet-commons ssl.
> >
> > I'm wondering why? Seems to me that this is a slightly different
> > situation to either CSV or the SSL situations since one of the
> > developers is an existing ASF and Commons committer.
>
> There are new committers involved. With CSV Henri is a committer (not talking karma here) (and me
> too, although we are both not very active). I think when new people are involved incubation (besides
> legal) should occur (even though the community import isn't that big, compared to similar situation
> like activemq, servicemix, etc, where the core developers are actually ASF Members)
>
> In case of this scenario (and ssl) I "envision" this for incubation :
>
> - Get the people on board as a committer on the initial proposal
> - Have them *show* that they are here to stay for an x amount of time
> - Ideally have the normal exit criteria, although I can imagine for commons a slightly weaker exit
> strategy may be adapted (don't think the incubator thinks that eg 3 committers on a project is a
> vibrant community, although within commons it definitely will be!).
> - Get a release out.
>
> If someone starts hacking on code in the sandbox I am ok with that, but rather not see new code
> again hitting the sandbox, since we "don't" accept new committers on sandbox components and it
> doesn't have the ability to have a release (disclaimer : I became committer in Jakarta because of a
> sandbox component, ahum).
>
> I highly prefer that incubating commons components to use the commons-dev and commons-user list,
> since to do development however, since it would be quite a cultural shock when moving from incubator
> specific lists to the commons ones.
>
> Disclaimer : this is just a brain dump and I would love to see some new projects at Jakarta, but I
> think we also need to figure out how we should handle that in a constructive way and prevent
> feedparser and csv situations.

OK, good explanation - sounds reasonable to me. You're right going the
incubator route would bring Matt Sgarlata in with the code which would
be more desirable.

Niall

> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.

Niall Pemberton wrote:
> On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>>
>> Matt Benson wrote:
>> > --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > [SNIP]
>> >> I didn't know whether this had been done before in
>> >> Commons - but seems
>> >> that it has for the Commons CSV component back in
>> >> December 2005:
>> >>
>> >>
>> > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html
>> >
>> > Actually I knew about this but thought I remembered
>> > someone (Henri?) saying later that having gotten the
>> > code in this way might not have been the best choice
>> > in retrospect.  Does that ring any bells with anyone?
>>
>> Yep that rings a bell and going down that route again, is not
>> something that has my support for
>> *new* components (which this is). If the code is destined for an
>> existing codebase, we could do the
>> IP route, else I would like to see some level of incubation (besides
>> handling ip). See the
>> discussion on not-yet-commons ssl.
> 
> I'm wondering why? Seems to me that this is a slightly different
> situation to either CSV or the SSL situations since one of the
> developers is an existing ASF and Commons committer.

There are new committers involved. With CSV Henri is a committer (not talking karma here) (and me
too, although we are both not very active). I think when new people are involved incubation (besides
legal) should occur (even though the community import isn't that big, compared to similar situation
like activemq, servicemix, etc, where the core developers are actually ASF Members)

In case of this scenario (and ssl) I "envision" this for incubation :

- Get the people on board as a committer on the initial proposal
- Have them *show* that they are here to stay for an x amount of time
- Ideally have the normal exit criteria, although I can imagine for commons a slightly weaker exit
strategy may be adapted (don't think the incubator thinks that eg 3 committers on a project is a
vibrant community, although within commons it definitely will be!).
- Get a release out.

If someone starts hacking on code in the sandbox I am ok with that, but rather not see new code
again hitting the sandbox, since we "don't" accept new committers on sandbox components and it
doesn't have the ability to have a release (disclaimer : I became committer in Jakarta because of a
sandbox component, ahum).

I highly prefer that incubating commons components to use the commons-dev and commons-user list,
since to do development however, since it would be quite a cultural shock when moving from incubator
specific lists to the commons ones.

Disclaimer : this is just a brain dump and I would love to see some new projects at Jakarta, but I
think we also need to figure out how we should handle that in a constructive way and prevent
feedparser and csv situations.

Mvgr,
Martin

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.

On 3/9/07, Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net> wrote:
>
> Matt Benson wrote:
> > --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [SNIP]
> >> I didn't know whether this had been done before in
> >> Commons - but seems
> >> that it has for the Commons CSV component back in
> >> December 2005:
> >>
> >>
> > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html
> >
> > Actually I knew about this but thought I remembered
> > someone (Henri?) saying later that having gotten the
> > code in this way might not have been the best choice
> > in retrospect.  Does that ring any bells with anyone?
>
> Yep that rings a bell and going down that route again, is not something that has my support for
> *new* components (which this is). If the code is destined for an existing codebase, we could do the
> IP route, else I would like to see some level of incubation (besides handling ip). See the
> discussion on not-yet-commons ssl.

I'm wondering why? Seems to me that this is a slightly different
situation to either CSV or the SSL situations since one of the
developers is an existing ASF and Commons committer.

Niall

> On another note : If there will be no mentors for the project from Jakarta, I don't see a reason
> that Jakarta be the sponsor of the project. Not that this is a documented Incubator policy however,
> but since 1) we have a lot of people who are allowed to be a member and 2) the project should have
> active guidance from the community where it is destined to end up (esp important in a commons
> situation).
>
> I am planning to start a thread on these kind of situations on incubator general to gather thoughts.
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.

Matt Benson wrote:
> --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [SNIP]
>> I didn't know whether this had been done before in
>> Commons - but seems
>> that it has for the Commons CSV component back in
>> December 2005:
>>
>>
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html
> 
> Actually I knew about this but thought I remembered
> someone (Henri?) saying later that having gotten the
> code in this way might not have been the best choice
> in retrospect.  Does that ring any bells with anyone?

Yep that rings a bell and going down that route again, is not something that has my support for
*new* components (which this is). If the code is destined for an existing codebase, we could do the
IP route, else I would like to see some level of incubation (besides handling ip). See the
discussion on not-yet-commons ssl.
On another note : If there will be no mentors for the project from Jakarta, I don't see a reason
that Jakarta be the sponsor of the project. Not that this is a documented Incubator policy however,
but since 1) we have a lot of people who are allowed to be a member and 2) the project should have
active guidance from the community where it is destined to end up (esp important in a commons
situation).

I am planning to start a thread on these kind of situations on incubator general to gather thoughts.

Mvgr,
Martin

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.

--- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
[SNIP]
> I didn't know whether this had been done before in
> Commons - but seems
> that it has for the Commons CSV component back in
> December 2005:
> 
>
http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html
> 

Actually I knew about this but thought I remembered
someone (Henri?) saying later that having gotten the
code in this way might not have been the best choice
in retrospect.  Does that ring any bells with anyone?

-Matt

> Niall
> 
> > > The above can be considered a test of my grasp
> of this
> > > policy; as such confirmation, contradiction, or
> > > clarification is welcome.
> >
> > The way Jakarta Commons operates is that any ASF
> commiter (such as
> > yourself) can start a new Commons component in the
> Sandbox. In the
> > case of seeding that component with an external
> code base such as
> > Morph - this short form ensures that all the usual
> Incubator checks
> > (e.g. IP, CLA's etc) are done so that there are no
> issues with
> > bringing the code into the ASF.
> >
> > Once the incubator checks are done and the code is
> in the Commons
> > Sandbox, you still then need to meet meet the
> usual criteria to exit
> > the Sandbox and become a proper Commons component.
> I think the
> > downside of going this route will be the way it
> differs for Matt
> > Sgarlata - since hes not an ASF commiter. In the
> "full incubator"
> > route he would enter the incubator with the code.
> This way he would
> > need to be voted in in the usual way - so theres
> likely to be some
> > time where he can only work on his code by
> submitting patches - which
> > may not be acceptable to him as the original
> author.
> >
> > > With all that said, this, again, does sound like
> a
> > > possibly more promising line of investigation
> than
> > > full-on incubation.  But what's next?  :o
> >
> > I'm not expert in these things, but perhaps the
> following:
> >
> > - check if Matt Sgarlata would be happy with this
> route
> > - raise it on the Incubator list outlining what
> you want to do and see
> > if they think it acceptable
> > - see if there is support/objections to this in
> Commons
> >
> > Niall
> >
> > > br,
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Niall
> > > >
> > > > [1]
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/beanutils/
> > > > [2] http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
> > > > [3] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/jexl/
> > > > [4] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/el/
> > > > [5]
> > > >
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/convert/
> > > >
> > > > > br,
> > > > > Matt
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Niall
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Matt
> >
> 
>
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> 
> 



 
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.

On 3/8/07, Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/8/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 3/7/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > [PARAPHRASED: a bunch of stuff about
> > morph.sourceforge.net coming into the ASF, potentially
> > under the Jakarta umbrella]
> > [SNIP]
> > >
> > > As others have said ASF policy is for externally
> > > developed codebases
> > > to go through incubation. AFAIK though there are two
> > > possible routes -
> > > the "full incubation" route, or a "short form" to
> > > bring code straight
> > > into an existing project. This is what Commons Math
> > > did recently with
> > > the Mantissa contribution:
> > >
> > > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
> > >
> > > Whether this is appropriate for Morph is another
> > > question. As a
> > > general observation (and occasional BeanUtils
> > > committer) it seems to
> > > me that many of these types of libraries such as
> > > Commons BeanUtils[1],
> > > OGNL[2], Commons JEXL[3], Commons EL[4], Commons
> > > Convert[5] fail to
> > > attract a developer community larger than 1 or 2 and
> > > as such are
> > > always precariously only ever one step away from
> > > being inactive
> > > projects. Morph with 2 developers faces a similar
> > > challenge. Now maybe
> > > if you go for "full incubation" you'll attract a
> > > large enough
> > > community to prove this wrong and go TLP. I have to
> > > say I think its
> > > doubtful - since IMO these kind of libraries people
> > > want to use - but
> > > not work on. Jakarta Commons seems to have overcome
> > > to a certain
> > > extent the problem of getting 3 votes on projects
> > > with only 1 or 2
> > > developers - with developers from other components
> > > "pitching in" to
> > > help get releases out.
> > >
> > > If you feel that Morph has a reasonable chance by
> > > going the "full
> > > incubation" route (and by that I mean meeting the
> > > "community" exit
> > > criteria) then most of the above is irrelevant. If
> > > you don't think it
> > > does then maybe the "short form" route into
> > > somewhere like Commons is
> > > worth exploring.
> >
> > In the light you put it, the "big project composed of
> > smaller components" structure of the commons does
> > sound like a good safety net for all these
> > library-style components.  Maybe you're right that
> > most developers don't like building relatively small
> > but essential utility code (I can't imagine why not;
> > it takes all kinds I guess).  Anyway, this short form
> > route, of which I was unaware, does indeed sound like
> > a worthwhile avenue of inquiry.  Also, this seems to
> > be the same thing Danny Angus said later--thanks
> > Danny!
> >
> > >
> > > One last point - the "short form" is just about code
> > > (not
> > > developers/community) - but with the Math Mantissa
> > > contribution Luc
> > > (the author) was voted in shortly after the code.
> > > I'm sure if Commons
> > > accepted Morph, then they would be equally keen to
> > > see Matt join as
> > > well to continue work on it.
> >
> > I assume you were referring to "the other Matt":
> > Sgarlata, as I myself am a (recently added) Jakarta
> > committer... but wanted to clarify for the benefit of
> > our readers... ;)
>
> Yes sorry - too many Matts :-)
>
> > So to recap, ASF policy allows for the import of
> > externally developed code into an existing project (in
> > contrast with accepting a codebase as a full-fledged
> > project for incubation).  As Jakarta is a
> > project-with-subprojects, the IP clearance policy in
> > question is somewhat of a back door:  the imported
> > code may (or may not) remain self-sufficient (as can
> > any Jakarta subproject) but technically falls under
> > this policy.  I suppose this would apply doubly for a
> > prospective commons component as it would be
> > considered a subproject of the commons subproject of
> > the Jakarta TLP.  I don't believe I am exposing any
> > secret loophole here:  I would think it would be
> > expected that a PMC operate however it sees fit within
> > the limits of ASF policy.

I didn't know whether this had been done before in Commons - but seems
that it has for the Commons CSV component back in December 2005:

http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/jakarta-commons-csv.html

Niall

> > The above can be considered a test of my grasp of this
> > policy; as such confirmation, contradiction, or
> > clarification is welcome.
>
> The way Jakarta Commons operates is that any ASF commiter (such as
> yourself) can start a new Commons component in the Sandbox. In the
> case of seeding that component with an external code base such as
> Morph - this short form ensures that all the usual Incubator checks
> (e.g. IP, CLA's etc) are done so that there are no issues with
> bringing the code into the ASF.
>
> Once the incubator checks are done and the code is in the Commons
> Sandbox, you still then need to meet meet the usual criteria to exit
> the Sandbox and become a proper Commons component. I think the
> downside of going this route will be the way it differs for Matt
> Sgarlata - since hes not an ASF commiter. In the "full incubator"
> route he would enter the incubator with the code. This way he would
> need to be voted in in the usual way - so theres likely to be some
> time where he can only work on his code by submitting patches - which
> may not be acceptable to him as the original author.
>
> > With all that said, this, again, does sound like a
> > possibly more promising line of investigation than
> > full-on incubation.  But what's next?  :o
>
> I'm not expert in these things, but perhaps the following:
>
> - check if Matt Sgarlata would be happy with this route
> - raise it on the Incubator list outlining what you want to do and see
> if they think it acceptable
> - see if there is support/objections to this in Commons
>
> Niall
>
> > br,
> > Matt
> >
> > >
> > > Niall
> > >
> > > [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/beanutils/
> > > [2] http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
> > > [3] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/jexl/
> > > [4] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/el/
> > > [5]
> > > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/convert/
> > >
> > > > br,
> > > > Matt
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Niall
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Matt
>

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.

On 3/8/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 3/7/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [PARAPHRASED: a bunch of stuff about
> morph.sourceforge.net coming into the ASF, potentially
> under the Jakarta umbrella]
> [SNIP]
> >
> > As others have said ASF policy is for externally
> > developed codebases
> > to go through incubation. AFAIK though there are two
> > possible routes -
> > the "full incubation" route, or a "short form" to
> > bring code straight
> > into an existing project. This is what Commons Math
> > did recently with
> > the Mantissa contribution:
> >
> > http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
> >
> > Whether this is appropriate for Morph is another
> > question. As a
> > general observation (and occasional BeanUtils
> > committer) it seems to
> > me that many of these types of libraries such as
> > Commons BeanUtils[1],
> > OGNL[2], Commons JEXL[3], Commons EL[4], Commons
> > Convert[5] fail to
> > attract a developer community larger than 1 or 2 and
> > as such are
> > always precariously only ever one step away from
> > being inactive
> > projects. Morph with 2 developers faces a similar
> > challenge. Now maybe
> > if you go for "full incubation" you'll attract a
> > large enough
> > community to prove this wrong and go TLP. I have to
> > say I think its
> > doubtful - since IMO these kind of libraries people
> > want to use - but
> > not work on. Jakarta Commons seems to have overcome
> > to a certain
> > extent the problem of getting 3 votes on projects
> > with only 1 or 2
> > developers - with developers from other components
> > "pitching in" to
> > help get releases out.
> >
> > If you feel that Morph has a reasonable chance by
> > going the "full
> > incubation" route (and by that I mean meeting the
> > "community" exit
> > criteria) then most of the above is irrelevant. If
> > you don't think it
> > does then maybe the "short form" route into
> > somewhere like Commons is
> > worth exploring.
>
> In the light you put it, the "big project composed of
> smaller components" structure of the commons does
> sound like a good safety net for all these
> library-style components.  Maybe you're right that
> most developers don't like building relatively small
> but essential utility code (I can't imagine why not;
> it takes all kinds I guess).  Anyway, this short form
> route, of which I was unaware, does indeed sound like
> a worthwhile avenue of inquiry.  Also, this seems to
> be the same thing Danny Angus said later--thanks
> Danny!
>
> >
> > One last point - the "short form" is just about code
> > (not
> > developers/community) - but with the Math Mantissa
> > contribution Luc
> > (the author) was voted in shortly after the code.
> > I'm sure if Commons
> > accepted Morph, then they would be equally keen to
> > see Matt join as
> > well to continue work on it.
>
> I assume you were referring to "the other Matt":
> Sgarlata, as I myself am a (recently added) Jakarta
> committer... but wanted to clarify for the benefit of
> our readers... ;)

Yes sorry - too many Matts :-)

> So to recap, ASF policy allows for the import of
> externally developed code into an existing project (in
> contrast with accepting a codebase as a full-fledged
> project for incubation).  As Jakarta is a
> project-with-subprojects, the IP clearance policy in
> question is somewhat of a back door:  the imported
> code may (or may not) remain self-sufficient (as can
> any Jakarta subproject) but technically falls under
> this policy.  I suppose this would apply doubly for a
> prospective commons component as it would be
> considered a subproject of the commons subproject of
> the Jakarta TLP.  I don't believe I am exposing any
> secret loophole here:  I would think it would be
> expected that a PMC operate however it sees fit within
> the limits of ASF policy.
>
> The above can be considered a test of my grasp of this
> policy; as such confirmation, contradiction, or
> clarification is welcome.

The way Jakarta Commons operates is that any ASF commiter (such as
yourself) can start a new Commons component in the Sandbox. In the
case of seeding that component with an external code base such as
Morph - this short form ensures that all the usual Incubator checks
(e.g. IP, CLA's etc) are done so that there are no issues with
bringing the code into the ASF.

Once the incubator checks are done and the code is in the Commons
Sandbox, you still then need to meet meet the usual criteria to exit
the Sandbox and become a proper Commons component. I think the
downside of going this route will be the way it differs for Matt
Sgarlata - since hes not an ASF commiter. In the "full incubator"
route he would enter the incubator with the code. This way he would
need to be voted in in the usual way - so theres likely to be some
time where he can only work on his code by submitting patches - which
may not be acceptable to him as the original author.

> With all that said, this, again, does sound like a
> possibly more promising line of investigation than
> full-on incubation.  But what's next?  :o

I'm not expert in these things, but perhaps the following:

- check if Matt Sgarlata would be happy with this route
- raise it on the Incubator list outlining what you want to do and see
if they think it acceptable
- see if there is support/objections to this in Commons

Niall

> br,
> Matt
>
> >
> > Niall
> >
> > [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/beanutils/
> > [2] http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
> > [3] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/jexl/
> > [4] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/el/
> > [5]
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/convert/
> >
> > > br,
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Niall
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Matt

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.

--- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/7/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[PARAPHRASED: a bunch of stuff about
morph.sourceforge.net coming into the ASF, potentially
under the Jakarta umbrella]
[SNIP]
> 
> As others have said ASF policy is for externally
> developed codebases
> to go through incubation. AFAIK though there are two
> possible routes -
> the "full incubation" route, or a "short form" to
> bring code straight
> into an existing project. This is what Commons Math
> did recently with
> the Mantissa contribution:
> 
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
> 
> Whether this is appropriate for Morph is another
> question. As a
> general observation (and occasional BeanUtils
> committer) it seems to
> me that many of these types of libraries such as
> Commons BeanUtils[1],
> OGNL[2], Commons JEXL[3], Commons EL[4], Commons
> Convert[5] fail to
> attract a developer community larger than 1 or 2 and
> as such are
> always precariously only ever one step away from
> being inactive
> projects. Morph with 2 developers faces a similar
> challenge. Now maybe
> if you go for "full incubation" you'll attract a
> large enough
> community to prove this wrong and go TLP. I have to
> say I think its
> doubtful - since IMO these kind of libraries people
> want to use - but
> not work on. Jakarta Commons seems to have overcome
> to a certain
> extent the problem of getting 3 votes on projects
> with only 1 or 2
> developers - with developers from other components
> "pitching in" to
> help get releases out.
> 
> If you feel that Morph has a reasonable chance by
> going the "full
> incubation" route (and by that I mean meeting the
> "community" exit
> criteria) then most of the above is irrelevant. If
> you don't think it
> does then maybe the "short form" route into
> somewhere like Commons is
> worth exploring.

In the light you put it, the "big project composed of
smaller components" structure of the commons does
sound like a good safety net for all these
library-style components.  Maybe you're right that
most developers don't like building relatively small
but essential utility code (I can't imagine why not;
it takes all kinds I guess).  Anyway, this short form
route, of which I was unaware, does indeed sound like
a worthwhile avenue of inquiry.  Also, this seems to
be the same thing Danny Angus said later--thanks
Danny!

> 
> One last point - the "short form" is just about code
> (not
> developers/community) - but with the Math Mantissa
> contribution Luc
> (the author) was voted in shortly after the code.
> I'm sure if Commons
> accepted Morph, then they would be equally keen to
> see Matt join as
> well to continue work on it.

I assume you were referring to "the other Matt": 
Sgarlata, as I myself am a (recently added) Jakarta
committer... but wanted to clarify for the benefit of
our readers... ;)

So to recap, ASF policy allows for the import of
externally developed code into an existing project (in
contrast with accepting a codebase as a full-fledged
project for incubation).  As Jakarta is a
project-with-subprojects, the IP clearance policy in
question is somewhat of a back door:  the imported
code may (or may not) remain self-sufficient (as can
any Jakarta subproject) but technically falls under
this policy.  I suppose this would apply doubly for a
prospective commons component as it would be
considered a subproject of the commons subproject of
the Jakarta TLP.  I don't believe I am exposing any
secret loophole here:  I would think it would be
expected that a PMC operate however it sees fit within
the limits of ASF policy.

The above can be considered a test of my grasp of this
policy; as such confirmation, contradiction, or
clarification is welcome.

With all that said, this, again, does sound like a
possibly more promising line of investigation than
full-on incubation.  But what's next?  :o

br,
Matt

> 
> Niall
> 
> [1] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/beanutils/
> [2] http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
> [3] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/jexl/
> [4] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/el/
> [5]
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/convert/
> 
> > br,
> > Matt
> >
> > >
> > > Niall
> > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Matt
> 
>
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> 
> 

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.

On 3/7/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 3/7/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > @Members:
> > >   I have recently joined the development
> > > team of an OSS project, Morph, that captures the
> > > spirit of Jakarta commons-convert but where the
> > > convert project stagnated, Morph is a
> > well-evolved,
> > > though still not 100% complete, library whose
> > > development I feel would benefit greatly from The
> > > Apache Way and would make a worthy ASF project.
> > > Object conversion seems to be a woefully
> > under-served
> > > subject in the Java OSS space, despite the
> > ubiquity of
> > > the need for it (however well-hidden it may tend
> > to
> > > be) in enterprise Java development.  I have
> > contacted
> > > a few of you personally already, but having
> > received
> > > no bites as yet I am widening my audience one last
> > > time before giving up on this.
> > >
> > > You can learn more about this library at:
> > >
> > > http://morph.sourceforge.net
> >
> > From looking at the "roles" document for incubator
> > the champion needs
> > to either be a member or on the Sponsoring PMC. Just
> > out of interest
> > do you have a plan for which PMC will sponsor -
> > incubator or maybe
> > Jakarta? Although you don't have to decide this
> > before entering the
> > incubator do the Morph developers have a preferred
> > destination if/when
> > they exit the incubator - e.g. their own TLP or part
> > of a project such
> > as Jakarta?
>
> Hi Niall--
>   Since having joined the Morph team I would consider
> myself to be its secondary-but-currently-most-active
> developer, with the primary developer being content
> for the time being to let me take the reins on the
> issue of incubation @ ASF.  I go into this level of
> detail here so it will be clear that this answer is
> mine, but that I feel I am justified in giving an
> answer I am coming up with as I go along.  Obviously
> some thought has already gone into what might become
> of Morph after a successful incubation.  My feeling is
> that as a replacement for/significant evolution beyond
> commons-convert, the Jakarta commons might indeed be
> an appropriate home.  Because Morph's feature set
> extends somewhat beyond the original scope of
> commons-convert, however, I could foresee that some
> might consider it more appropriate as a direct Jakarta
> subproject.  In either case jurisdiction would belong
> to the same PMC, IIUC, so I think "under Jakarta" is a
> sufficiently detailed answer for the moment, subject
> of course to the approval of the Jakarta community.
> This explains my posting to general@ rather than
> commons-dev@.  Additionally, I was operating from the
> perspective that a final destination is moot until a
> champion is found, though I did realize on some level
> that the likely destination within Apache could to
> some degree dictate the likely championship
> candidates.

As others have said ASF policy is for externally developed codebases
to go through incubation. AFAIK though there are two possible routes -
the "full incubation" route, or a "short form" to bring code straight
into an existing project. This is what Commons Math did recently with
the Mantissa contribution:

http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html

Whether this is appropriate for Morph is another question. As a
general observation (and occasional BeanUtils committer) it seems to
me that many of these types of libraries such as Commons BeanUtils[1],
OGNL[2], Commons JEXL[3], Commons EL[4], Commons Convert[5] fail to
attract a developer community larger than 1 or 2 and as such are
always precariously only ever one step away from being inactive
projects. Morph with 2 developers faces a similar challenge. Now maybe
if you go for "full incubation" you'll attract a large enough
community to prove this wrong and go TLP. I have to say I think its
doubtful - since IMO these kind of libraries people want to use - but
not work on. Jakarta Commons seems to have overcome to a certain
extent the problem of getting 3 votes on projects with only 1 or 2
developers - with developers from other components "pitching in" to
help get releases out.

If you feel that Morph has a reasonable chance by going the "full
incubation" route (and by that I mean meeting the "community" exit
criteria) then most of the above is irrelevant. If you don't think it
does then maybe the "short form" route into somewhere like Commons is
worth exploring.

One last point - the "short form" is just about code (not
developers/community) - but with the Math Mantissa contribution Luc
(the author) was voted in shortly after the code. I'm sure if Commons
accepted Morph, then they would be equally keen to see Matt join as
well to continue work on it.

Niall

[1] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/beanutils/
[2] http://www.opensymphony.com/ognl/
[3] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/jexl/
[4] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/el/
[5] http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/convert/

> br,
> Matt
>
> >
> > Niall
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Matt

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.

--- Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/7/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > @Members:
> >   I have recently joined the development
> > team of an OSS project, Morph, that captures the
> > spirit of Jakarta commons-convert but where the
> > convert project stagnated, Morph is a
> well-evolved,
> > though still not 100% complete, library whose
> > development I feel would benefit greatly from The
> > Apache Way and would make a worthy ASF project.
> > Object conversion seems to be a woefully
> under-served
> > subject in the Java OSS space, despite the
> ubiquity of
> > the need for it (however well-hidden it may tend
> to
> > be) in enterprise Java development.  I have
> contacted
> > a few of you personally already, but having
> received
> > no bites as yet I am widening my audience one last
> > time before giving up on this.
> >
> > You can learn more about this library at:
> >
> > http://morph.sourceforge.net
> 
> From looking at the "roles" document for incubator
> the champion needs
> to either be a member or on the Sponsoring PMC. Just
> out of interest
> do you have a plan for which PMC will sponsor -
> incubator or maybe
> Jakarta? Although you don't have to decide this
> before entering the
> incubator do the Morph developers have a preferred
> destination if/when
> they exit the incubator - e.g. their own TLP or part
> of a project such
> as Jakarta?

Hi Niall--
  Since having joined the Morph team I would consider
myself to be its secondary-but-currently-most-active
developer, with the primary developer being content
for the time being to let me take the reins on the
issue of incubation @ ASF.  I go into this level of
detail here so it will be clear that this answer is
mine, but that I feel I am justified in giving an
answer I am coming up with as I go along.  Obviously
some thought has already gone into what might become
of Morph after a successful incubation.  My feeling is
that as a replacement for/significant evolution beyond
commons-convert, the Jakarta commons might indeed be
an appropriate home.  Because Morph's feature set
extends somewhat beyond the original scope of
commons-convert, however, I could foresee that some
might consider it more appropriate as a direct Jakarta
subproject.  In either case jurisdiction would belong
to the same PMC, IIUC, so I think "under Jakarta" is a
sufficiently detailed answer for the moment, subject
of course to the approval of the Jakarta community. 
This explains my posting to general@ rather than
commons-dev@.  Additionally, I was operating from the
perspective that a final destination is moot until a
champion is found, though I did realize on some level
that the likely destination within Apache could to
some degree dictate the likely championship
candidates.

br,
Matt

> 
> Niall
> 
> > Thanks,
> > Matt
> 
>
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.

On 3/7/07, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> @Members:
>   I have recently joined the development
> team of an OSS project, Morph, that captures the
> spirit of Jakarta commons-convert but where the
> convert project stagnated, Morph is a well-evolved,
> though still not 100% complete, library whose
> development I feel would benefit greatly from The
> Apache Way and would make a worthy ASF project.
> Object conversion seems to be a woefully under-served
> subject in the Java OSS space, despite the ubiquity of
> the need for it (however well-hidden it may tend to
> be) in enterprise Java development.  I have contacted
> a few of you personally already, but having received
> no bites as yet I am widening my audience one last
> time before giving up on this.
>
> You can learn more about this library at:
>
> http://morph.sourceforge.net

>From looking at the "roles" document for incubator the champion needs
to either be a member or on the Sponsoring PMC. Just out of interest
do you have a plan for which PMC will sponsor - incubator or maybe
Jakarta? Although you don't have to decide this before entering the
incubator do the Morph developers have a preferred destination if/when
they exit the incubator - e.g. their own TLP or part of a project such
as Jakarta?

Niall

> Thanks,
> Matt

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.

--- Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/7/07, Oliver Zeigermann
> <ol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Matt!
> >
> > I understand you already are a Jakarta Commons
> commiter, right?
> > Wouldn't it be the easiest way to add the project
> to the Commons
> > sandbox, make it ready for a release and promote
> it to the proper
> > section quickly.
> >
> > AFAIK all Commons committers are allowed to create
> projects in the
> > sandbox. This would mean you do not need any
> champion, but could do it
> > yourself.
> >
> > Niall, others, isn't that correct?
> >
> <snip/>
> 
> Not if the code is developed outside the ASF (as
> seems the case here).

This was my understanding as well.  But nice try!  ;)

-Matt

> 
> -Rahul
> 
>
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com>.

On 3/7/07, Oliver Zeigermann <ol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2007/3/7, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com>:
> > On 3/7/07, Oliver Zeigermann <ol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Matt!
> > >
> > > I understand you already are a Jakarta Commons commiter, right?
> > > Wouldn't it be the easiest way to add the project to the Commons
> > > sandbox, make it ready for a release and promote it to the proper
> > > section quickly.
> > >
> > > AFAIK all Commons committers are allowed to create projects in the
> > > sandbox. This would mean you do not need any champion, but could do it
> > > yourself.
> > >
> > > Niall, others, isn't that correct?
> > >
> > <snip/>
> >
> > Not if the code is developed outside the ASF (as seems the case here).
>
> Hmm, is that so? Looking at the charter
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/charter.html
>
> I could not find something like that.
>
<snip/>

It is so, without a doubt.

The original charter probably predates the existence of the Apache
Incubator itself by well over a year. IMO, we're steadily growing as a
Foundation in our understanding of code donations and bringing
existing external projects (code, community et al) in the ASF fold.
There are multiple aspects to these transitions, all of which are best
handled by the procedures and policies of the Apache Incubator.
Ofcourse, all of this and more is here [1].

-Rahul

[1] http://incubator.apache.org/


> Oliver
>

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Danny Angus <Da...@slc.co.uk>.

"Oliver Zeigermann" <ol...@gmail.com> wrote on 07/03/2007 
21:31:17:

> >
> > Not if the code is developed outside the ASF (as seems the case here).
> 
> Hmm, is that so? Looking at the charter
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/charter.html
> 
> I could not find something like that.

It is possbible to take in external projects, James accepted mime4j and 
jspf.
Perhaps you should ask on general@incubator?

d.

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>.

--- Oliver Zeigermann <ol...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> 2007/3/7, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com>:
> > On 3/7/07, Oliver Zeigermann
> <ol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Hi Matt!
> > >
> > > I understand you already are a Jakarta Commons
> commiter, right?
> > > Wouldn't it be the easiest way to add the
> project to the Commons
> > > sandbox, make it ready for a release and promote
> it to the proper
> > > section quickly.
> > >
> > > AFAIK all Commons committers are allowed to
> create projects in the
> > > sandbox. This would mean you do not need any
> champion, but could do it
> > > yourself.
> > >
> > > Niall, others, isn't that correct?
> > >
> > <snip/>
> >
> > Not if the code is developed outside the ASF (as
> seems the case here).
> 
> Hmm, is that so? Looking at the charter
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/charter.html
> 
> I could not find something like that.

You're right AFAICT, but I would bet the explanation
would involve ASF-wide policy regarding IP clearances,
etc. wrt existing codebases trumping the commons
charter.  ;)

-Matt

> 
> Oliver
> 
>
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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Oliver Zeigermann <ol...@gmail.com>.

2007/3/7, Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com>:
> On 3/7/07, Oliver Zeigermann <ol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Matt!
> >
> > I understand you already are a Jakarta Commons commiter, right?
> > Wouldn't it be the easiest way to add the project to the Commons
> > sandbox, make it ready for a release and promote it to the proper
> > section quickly.
> >
> > AFAIK all Commons committers are allowed to create projects in the
> > sandbox. This would mean you do not need any champion, but could do it
> > yourself.
> >
> > Niall, others, isn't that correct?
> >
> <snip/>
>
> Not if the code is developed outside the ASF (as seems the case here).

Hmm, is that so? Looking at the charter

http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/charter.html

I could not find something like that.

Oliver

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Rahul Akolkar <ra...@gmail.com>.

On 3/7/07, Oliver Zeigermann <ol...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Matt!
>
> I understand you already are a Jakarta Commons commiter, right?
> Wouldn't it be the easiest way to add the project to the Commons
> sandbox, make it ready for a release and promote it to the proper
> section quickly.
>
> AFAIK all Commons committers are allowed to create projects in the
> sandbox. This would mean you do not need any champion, but could do it
> yourself.
>
> Niall, others, isn't that correct?
>
<snip/>

Not if the code is developed outside the ASF (as seems the case here).

-Rahul

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

Posted by Oliver Zeigermann <ol...@gmail.com>.

Hi Matt!

I understand you already are a Jakarta Commons commiter, right?
Wouldn't it be the easiest way to add the project to the Commons
sandbox, make it ready for a release and promote it to the proper
section quickly.

AFAIK all Commons committers are allowed to create projects in the
sandbox. This would mean you do not need any champion, but could do it
yourself.

Niall, others, isn't that correct?

Cheers

Oliver

2007/3/7, Matt Benson <gu...@yahoo.com>:
> @Members:
>   I have recently joined the development
> team of an OSS project, Morph, that captures the
> spirit of Jakarta commons-convert but where the
> convert project stagnated, Morph is a well-evolved,
> though still not 100% complete, library whose
> development I feel would benefit greatly from The
> Apache Way and would make a worthy ASF project.
> Object conversion seems to be a woefully under-served
> subject in the Java OSS space, despite the ubiquity of
> the need for it (however well-hidden it may tend to
> be) in enterprise Java development.  I have contacted
> a few of you personally already, but having received
> no bites as yet I am widening my audience one last
> time before giving up on this.
>
> You can learn more about this library at:
>
> http://morph.sourceforge.net
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
>
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