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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net> on 2008/04/10 17:31:20 UTC
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>
> i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
> now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
It's been a while since we discussed this.
I'm very curious where Tuscany stands - in terms of viably graduating
at this point. The one apparent issue is diversity - but I don't think
we want to continue using that as a cudgel - in fact I think we are
going to get very 'full' here at the Incubator if we have unrealistic
expectations.
Can someone fill me in on how many non-IBM PPMC members now participate?
Bill
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Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Vamsavardhana Reddy <c1...@gmail.com>.
I am glad that I brought up the discussion on Tuscany graduation with Bill
Rowe at ApacheConEU 2008. Happy to see this gain momentum and the positive
responses :).
++Vamsi
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> > the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
> > on narrower concepts with alternative names.
> >
> > 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> > proposed PMC.
> >
> > 2. for a top level project to succeed, it needs to be able to
> > encrourage, recruit and mentor new independent developers.
>
> +1.
>
> Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if present)
> intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
>
> * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project survive?
>
> Other cases of dominance have been brought up, such as forcing the
> company's
> will upon the community, rejection to expand the developer community and
> PMC
> membership, and so forth. I find these issues less important, as ASF
> Members
> can (and should) monitor PMCs in general and raise flags to the board if
> misuse is happening, and we have been there before and can deal with it.
>
> So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal, and
> encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for
> graduation.
>
>
> Cheers
> --
> Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
>
> I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
> I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
> I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
>
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>
>
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 11:24 AM, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <
> wrowe@rowe-clan.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > >
> > > > IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> > > > the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to
> > > > focus
> > > > on narrower concepts with alternative names.
> > > >
> > > > 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> > > > proposed PMC.
> > > >
> > >
> > Only that the community will be welcoming to newcomers and not treat the
> > ASF community-project as the "company's private project"; e.g. stdcxx is
> > largely one company, yet and still they brought across 2 mentors (Justin
> > and myself) to ensure we continue to foster community with the stdcxx
> > user community. A good c++ programmer/open source library user is
> > always
> > a potential patch contributor, more akin to apr, and very unlike httpd,
> > and we see those users to become potential contributors.
> >
> > Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if
> > > present) intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
> > >
> > > * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project
> > > survive?
> > >
> >
> > Actually I think we are far too obsessed with the prospects of letting
> > a given project or podling die. So the project passes into lethargy
> > and it's time ends, what's really so "negative" about that? We don't
> > hold committers to the grindstone, why should we treat employer
> > sponsored
> > committers any differently?
> >
> > So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal,
> > > and encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for
> > > graduation.
> > >
> >
> > ++1
> >
>
> So it seems like there is better support for Tuscany graduation now, are
> there any other issues or concerns anyone would like to bring up before we
> do make another attempt?
>
> ...ant
>
>
FYI, we've now started the tuscany-dev vote for doing this:
http://apache.markmail.org/message/6bduwmwuhntbjafu
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:47 AM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
wrote:
> On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> >
> > > IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> > > the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
> > > on narrower concepts with alternative names.
> > >
> > > 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> > > proposed PMC.
> > >
> >
> Only that the community will be welcoming to newcomers and not treat the
> ASF community-project as the "company's private project"; e.g. stdcxx is
> largely one company, yet and still they brought across 2 mentors (Justin
> and myself) to ensure we continue to foster community with the stdcxx
> user community. A good c++ programmer/open source library user is always
> a potential patch contributor, more akin to apr, and very unlike httpd,
> and we see those users to become potential contributors.
>
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> >
>
> > Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if
> > present) intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
> >
> > * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project
> > survive?
> >
>
> Actually I think we are far too obsessed with the prospects of letting
> a given project or podling die. So the project passes into lethargy
> and it's time ends, what's really so "negative" about that? We don't
> hold committers to the grindstone, why should we treat employer sponsored
> committers any differently?
>
> So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal, and
> > encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for graduation.
> >
>
> ++1
>
So it seems like there is better support for Tuscany graduation now, are
there any other issues or concerns anyone would like to bring up before we
do make another attempt?
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Apr 16, 2008, at 6:56 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> There needs to be a balance. And I am satisfied that the Incubator
> PMC has been taking the right line on the issue so far, subjective
> as the line may be.
>
FWIW, I also agree. And as a mentor, I think it results in a better
podling/PPMC/graduate.
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RE: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>>> 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
>>> proposed PMC.
> Only that the community will be welcoming to newcomers and not treat the
> ASF community-project as the "company's private project"
Those are primary concerns, yes. We don't want a company hijacking a project and using the ASF's imprimatur in that manner. More importantly, we want to see continued community development.
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project survive?
> Actually I think we are far too obsessed with the prospects of letting
> a given project or podling die.
There needs to be a balance. And I am satisfied that the Incubator PMC has been taking the right line on the issue so far, subjective as the line may be.
--- Noel
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Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
> On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>> IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
>> the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
>> on narrower concepts with alternative names.
>>
>> 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
>> proposed PMC.
Only that the community will be welcoming to newcomers and not treat the
ASF community-project as the "company's private project"; e.g. stdcxx is
largely one company, yet and still they brought across 2 mentors (Justin
and myself) to ensure we continue to foster community with the stdcxx
user community. A good c++ programmer/open source library user is always
a potential patch contributor, more akin to apr, and very unlike httpd,
and we see those users to become potential contributors.
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>
> Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if present)
> intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
>
> * A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project survive?
Actually I think we are far too obsessed with the prospects of letting
a given project or podling die. So the project passes into lethargy
and it's time ends, what's really so "negative" about that? We don't
hold committers to the grindstone, why should we treat employer sponsored
committers any differently?
> So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal, and
> encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for graduation.
++1
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Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Sunday 13 April 2008 19:30, Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
> on narrower concepts with alternative names.
>
> 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> proposed PMC.
>
> 2. for a top level project to succeed, it needs to be able to
> encrourage, recruit and mentor new independent developers.
+1.
Also, my personal and highly subjective interpretation of the (if present)
intent around diversity boils down to one scenario;
* A company pulls the plug for paid developers - will the project survive?
Other cases of dominance have been brought up, such as forcing the company's
will upon the community, rejection to expand the developer community and PMC
membership, and so forth. I find these issues less important, as ASF Members
can (and should) monitor PMCs in general and raise flags to the board if
misuse is happening, and we have been there before and can deal with it.
So, for the case of Tuscany; I am satisfied with the diversity goal, and
encourage Tuscany community with the aid of Mentors to move for graduation.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Robert Burrell Donkin <
robertburrelldonkin@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:27 PM, ant elder <an...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > That would make the PPMC be about 50% IBM day job and 50% (non IBMers
> or
> > IBM non-day jobers). Can we take it to a private list if anyone wants a
> > detailed breakdown?
>
> +1
>
> IMO the IPMC is wrong to ask for named affiliations in public.
> contractual information is potentially confidential and should be
> discussed only in private. all that should be needed in public are
> aggregate statistics.
>
> IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
> the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
> on narrower concepts with alternative names.
>
> 1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
> proposed PMC. PMC conveys voting rights and control of the project
> going forward. independent committers are fine but if these are not
> being enfranchised then this should be a concern. so the aggregation
> distribution of affiliations of PPMC members should be of interest. i
> don't care what the affliation is, just the aggregate stats.
>
> 2. for a top level project to succeed, it needs to be able to
> encrourage, recruit and mentor new independent developers. unless a
> project demonstrates the ability to recruit new independent
> developers, it is not ready to graduate. so, i would like to know how
> many new independent committers the project has developed, am
> interested in the quantity of code they've contributed and whether
> they are on the PPMC. again, i don't care about their affiliations.
>
Some answers to these:
Here is the timeline of new committers additions to Tuscany:
2008-04-16 Vote to add Wang Feng as Tuscany committer
2008-03-26 Vote to add Giorgio Zoppi as Tuscany committer
2007-11-19 Vote to add Rajini Sivaram as Tuscany committer
2007-11-01 Vote to add Mark Combellack as Tuscany committer
2007-10-21 Vote to add Michael Yoder as Tuscany committer
2007-10-08 Vote to add Amita Vadhavkar as a new committer
2007-09-19 Vote to add Simon Nash as a new committer
2007-08-21 Vote to add Brady Johnson as a new committer
2007-07-12 Vote to add Fuhwei Lwo as a new committer
2007-05-01 Vote to add Andy Grove as a new committer
2007-04-03 Vote to add Adriano Crestani as a new committer
2007-01-22 Vote to add Simon Laws as a new committer
2006-11-15 Vote to add Geoffrey Winn as a new committer
2006-11-10 Vote to add Luciano Resende as a new commiter
2006-11-07 Vote to add Rajith Attapattu
2006-09-29 Vote to add Ignacio Silva-Lepe as a new committer
2006-09-18 Vote to add Venkata Krishnan as a new committer
2006-08-10 Vote to add Andrew Borley as a new committer
2006-08-07 Vote to add Meeraj Kunnumpurath as a new committer
2006-08-07 Vote to add Kelvin Goodson as a new committer
2006-08-06 Vote to add Brent Daniel as a new committer
2006-08-04 Vote to add Raymond Feng as a new committer
2006-05-02 Vote to add Dan Kulp as a new committer
2006-03-01 Vote to add Ant Elder as a new committer
So thats 24 new committers over the two and a bit years of incubation, about
one new committer every month or two. Of those, 12 were IBMers, 12 were
independents or non-paid job IBMers. The actual quantity of code each of
those have done is harder to say but using the dates on that list if you
trawl around in the tuscany-private archives you can see the discussion
around each nomination and I think be satisfied each was justified. Not all
those have become PPMC members (yet), some committers don't stay active and
we've had PPMC membership take a little longer and require a bit more
commitment to the project, but as mentioned earlier on this thread the
Tuscany PPMC currently has 15 members, about 50% IBM day job and 50% (non
IBMers or IBM non-day jobers).
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 9:27 PM, ant elder <an...@apache.org> wrote:
<snip>
> That would make the PPMC be about 50% IBM day job and 50% (non IBMers or
> IBM non-day jobers). Can we take it to a private list if anyone wants a
> detailed breakdown?
+1
IMO the IPMC is wrong to ask for named affiliations in public.
contractual information is potentially confidential and should be
discussed only in private. all that should be needed in public are
aggregate statistics.
IMHO the emphasis on committer affiliation is misguided. overloading
the word diversity was also probably a mistake. maybe we need to focus
on narrower concepts with alternative names.
1. the incubator should be concerned about the composition of the
proposed PMC. PMC conveys voting rights and control of the project
going forward. independent committers are fine but if these are not
being enfranchised then this should be a concern. so the aggregation
distribution of affiliations of PPMC members should be of interest. i
don't care what the affliation is, just the aggregate stats.
2. for a top level project to succeed, it needs to be able to
encrourage, recruit and mentor new independent developers. unless a
project demonstrates the ability to recruit new independent
developers, it is not ready to graduate. so, i would like to know how
many new independent committers the project has developed, am
interested in the quantity of code they've contributed and whether
they are on the PPMC. again, i don't care about their affiliations.
- robert
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Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@apache.org>.
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>
wrote:
> On 4/10/08, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:31 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <
> wrowe@rowe-clan.net
> > >
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
> > > > now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
> > > >
> > >
> > > It's been a while since we discussed this.
> > >
> > > I'm very curious where Tuscany stands - in terms of viably graduating
> > > at this point. The one apparent issue is diversity - but I don't
> think
> > > we want to continue using that as a cudgel - in fact I think we are
> > > going to get very 'full' here at the Incubator if we have unrealistic
> > > expectations.
> > >
> > >
> > > Can someone fill me in on how many non-IBM PPMC members now
> participate?
> > >
> > > Bill
> > >
> >
> >
> > The complete PPMC list is being maintained on the graduation proposal
> wiki
> > page -
> >
> >
> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TUSCANYWIKI/Draft+TLP+Resolution
> >
> > So thats 15 members, currently 3 non-IBMers. However there have been
> > regularly new committers added so I expect there may be other non-IBMer
> > committers we will add to that PPMC list before our next graduation
> > attempt
> > (which i expect wont be so long away, we are actively thinking about
> > it...).
>
>
> You should also mention people who happen to work for IBM but are not
> working on Tuscany as part of their daily job.
>
> Cheers,
> Matthieu
>
> ...ant
> >
That would make the PPMC be about 50% IBM day job and 50% (non IBMers or
IBM non-day jobers). Can we take it to a private list if anyone wants a
detailed breakdown?
...ant
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by Matthieu Riou <ma...@offthelip.org>.
On 4/10/08, ant elder <an...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:31 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wrowe@rowe-clan.net
> >
> wrote:
>
>
> > Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
> > > now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
> > >
> >
> > It's been a while since we discussed this.
> >
> > I'm very curious where Tuscany stands - in terms of viably graduating
> > at this point. The one apparent issue is diversity - but I don't think
> > we want to continue using that as a cudgel - in fact I think we are
> > going to get very 'full' here at the Incubator if we have unrealistic
> > expectations.
> >
> >
> > Can someone fill me in on how many non-IBM PPMC members now participate?
> >
> > Bill
> >
>
>
> The complete PPMC list is being maintained on the graduation proposal wiki
> page -
>
> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TUSCANYWIKI/Draft+TLP+Resolution
>
> So thats 15 members, currently 3 non-IBMers. However there have been
> regularly new committers added so I expect there may be other non-IBMer
> committers we will add to that PPMC list before our next graduation
> attempt
> (which i expect wont be so long away, we are actively thinking about
> it...).
You should also mention people who happen to work for IBM but are not
working on Tuscany as part of their daily job.
Cheers,
Matthieu
...ant
>
Re: Graduate Tuscany as a top level project
Posted by ant elder <an...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Apr 10, 2008 at 4:31 PM, William A. Rowe, Jr. <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
wrote:
> Robert Burrell Donkin wrote:
>
> >
> > i've been a passive subscriber to the tuscany list for quite a while
> > now and to me, from the lists, it feels like an open community
> >
>
> It's been a while since we discussed this.
>
> I'm very curious where Tuscany stands - in terms of viably graduating
> at this point. The one apparent issue is diversity - but I don't think
> we want to continue using that as a cudgel - in fact I think we are
> going to get very 'full' here at the Incubator if we have unrealistic
> expectations.
>
>
> Can someone fill me in on how many non-IBM PPMC members now participate?
>
> Bill
>
The complete PPMC list is being maintained on the graduation proposal wiki
page -
http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/TUSCANYWIKI/Draft+TLP+Resolution
So thats 15 members, currently 3 non-IBMers. However there have been
regularly new committers added so I expect there may be other non-IBMer
committers we will add to that PPMC list before our next graduation attempt
(which i expect wont be so long away, we are actively thinking about it...).
...ant