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Posted to dev@ant.apache.org by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org> on 2000/11/29 09:48:04 UTC
Re: JARs in CVS (was Re: On voting rules)
I hope you don't mind me switching subject lines back and force but in
"On voting rules" I'm asking a question on the rules in general. And I
don't want to lose focus on this question there.
Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> wrote:
> on 11/29/2000 12:09 AM, "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> PS: In the nine months I've been following Ant development I've
>> never seen a -1 ignored or overruled and I really really hope this
>> is never going to happen.
>
> In this case, I personally feel that it is overruled until there is
> a good solution that resolves the issue. So far, I haven't seen one,
> but I sure as hell have proposed one.
OK, I haven't voted at all on this issue, partly because I didn't get
the opportunity to speak up before something happened (the junit.jar
had already been checked in at the time I received Peter's mail).
If I understand Pete's and your goal correctly you want to (1) make it
easy to get a development version of Ant (we're on ant-dev here and I
don't intend to talk about any other project) that works more or less
out of the box and (2) support the lazy developer - Pete's words - by
shipping as many required libraries as possible.
OK, here is my proposal: Include the JARs in the nightly builds but
leave the out of the repository. Downloading a nightly build is even
easier than building from CVS and it is a lot less work, so both
points should have been addressed.
> I'm a bit depressed at this point that absolutely no one from the
> community has volunteered to step up to the plate to help resolve
> this issue in any way. Why the fuck am I trying to help people out
> in this community if there is no community to help support us when
> we need help? :-(
(1) What you have proposed (the CJAN idea, right?) has some connection
to Ant, but I personally see it as something separate. I guess your
proposal would have better been placed at general@jakarta or something
similar. This is not really an Ant or even "Ant only" thing. You are
not addressing the right community IMHO.
(2) Conor said he liked the idea and was willing to help. Stating that
"absolutely no one from the community has volunteered to step up" is
wrong.
(3) In my experience "there is no community to help support us when we
need help" is plain wrong as a general statement - at least for the
Ant community. For the CJAN case, see (1).
> I even tried to get things started by making a proposal someone
> could start to implement. I'm sorry, I have to much other stuff on
> my plate right now to write everyone's software for them.
I know you are a very active guy, contributing to a lot of projects,
but - don't get me wrong - you're not the only one being busy with
other things.
> So, if everyone disagrees with my overrule, I will remove all the
> .jar's from CVS,
Remember we've been talking about Ant, we still are on ant-dev. I
can't remember you committing any JAR at all and if the Turbine
community decides they'd prefer to have the JAR in there CVS, fine.
Stefan
Re: JARs in CVS (was Re: On voting rules)
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 12/17/2000 10:48 PM, "James Duncan Davidson" <du...@x180.net> wrote:
> I'm not sure I see CJAN as a front end, or just another thing to be
> manipulated as a Task. As a Task, it's pretty simple to invision putting a
> cjan-ensure target in that executes some tasks that make sure that the right
> libs are in place.
>
> .duncan
Right, it shouldn't be more than just another Task.
-jon
--
Honk if you love peace and quiet.
Re: JARs in CVS (was Re: On voting rules)
Posted by James Duncan Davidson <du...@x180.net>.
On 11/29/00 2:27 AM, "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org> wrote:
> We'll have to agree that we disagree. IMHO CJAN should use Ant, but
> not be integrated into Ant. It's yet another frontend for Ant like
> Antidote is and like the others that have been proposed when Duncan
> shared his vision of AntEater.
I'm not sure I see CJAN as a front end, or just another thing to be
manipulated as a Task. As a Task, it's pretty simple to invision putting a
cjan-ensure target in that executes some tasks that make sure that the right
libs are in place.
.duncan
--
James Duncan Davidson duncan@x180.net
!try; do()
Re: JARs in CVS (was Re: On voting rules)
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com> wrote:
> on 11/29/2000 12:48 AM, "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> and (2) support the lazy developer - Pete's words - by shipping as
>> many required libraries as possible.
>
> I wouldn't call someone who simply wants to fix one bug in Ant
> without having to download a bazillion .jar files from all over the
> place "lazy."
Like I said, I was quoting Pete.
>> (1) What you have proposed (the CJAN idea, right?) has some
>> connection to Ant, but I personally see it as something separate.
> Actually, I think that this list is the perfect place for this. This
> list is about our (the Jakarta Project's) primary build
> system. Given that a CJAN would be integrated into Ant and the
> people who are interested in Ant are also interested in build
> systems, I think this is the perfect place.
We'll have to agree that we disagree. IMHO CJAN should use Ant, but
not be integrated into Ant. It's yet another frontend for Ant like
Antidote is and like the others that have been proposed when Duncan
shared his vision of AntEater.
>> (2) Conor said he liked the idea and was willing to help. Stating
>> that "absolutely no one from the community has volunteered to step
>> up" is wrong.
>
> Ok, I haven't gotten one request to modify the .xml file that I
> placed up on the Jakarta site. A statement of being willing to help
> is a hell of a lot different than someone actually sending me a
> patch or code or whatever.
Concluding that nobody was willing to contribute, only because you
didn't receive some type of code withing the first 24 or 30 hours
after your proposal, might be a little premature. 8-)
>> I know you are a very active guy, contributing to a lot of
>> projects, but - don't get me wrong - you're not the only one being
>> busy with other things.
>
> True, but I also think that there must be at least 1 or 2 other
> people out there who might be able to take some of their free time
> and devote it to something like this.
This is the story behind open source, isn't it? If your project is
interesting enough it will attract developers, the community will grow
and you'll end up with something great.
Personally I see a lot of overlap between your CJAN idea and Alexandria
- the stuff I know Jeff Martin is working on - and was prepared to
invest more time there. Unfortunately I'm running out of "free time to
devote" for anything ATM, sorry.
>> Remember we've been talking about Ant, we still are on ant-dev. I
>> can't remember you committing any JAR at all and if the Turbine
>> community decides they'd prefer to have the JAR in there CVS, fine.
>
> I disagree that this is just about Ant. Think bigger picture here.
Yes and no. The CJAN idea fits a bigger picture, but initially the
question was whether we (the Ant community) want JARs in CVS or
not. IMHO this is up to the community, Ant's as well as Turbine's.
Stefan
RE: JARs in CVS (was Re: On voting rules)
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@m64.com>.
> > (2) Conor said he liked the idea and was willing to help.
> Stating that
> > "absolutely no one from the community has volunteered to step up" is
> > wrong.
>
> Ok, I haven't gotten one request to modify the .xml file that
> I placed up on
> the Jakarta site. A statement of being willing to help is a
> hell of a lot
> different than someone actually sending me a patch or code or
> whatever.
>
Jon,
I appreciate your enthusiasm but I guess I am just a little old and
slow. Your proposal arrived at 3:20pm Tuesday in my time zone. It is now
some 31 hours later. Were you seriously expecting to have someone submit
code in that sort of timeframe? In that timeframe, I managed some
sleep, performed a major release at my day job, gave some thought to the
emails and problems on ant-dev & ant-user and gave the occasional
thought to a cjpan task/app.
I can give you some immediate feedback on your XML file. The construct
<version="1.2.2" latest="true">
is not valid XML :-)
More constructively, I think that items such as Jaxp should be
considered services and not products. Services would have a number of
products which can act as providers. Something along these lines
<product name="Ant" permissionToDistribute="true">
<ver version="1.2" latest="true">
<description>
This is Ant version 1.2
</description>
<depends service="jaxp" version="1.0" required="true"/>
...
</product>
<service name="jaxp">
<ver version="1.0" latest="false">
<provider name="xerces" version="1.2"/>
<provider name="jaxp_reference" version="1.0"/>
</ver>
</service>
I am willing to help. I have an impulse engine not a warp drive.
Re: JARs in CVS (was Re: On voting rules)
Posted by Jon Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
on 11/29/2000 12:48 AM, "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org> wrote:
> If I understand Pete's and your goal correctly you want to (1) make it
> easy to get a development version of Ant (we're on ant-dev here and I
> don't intend to talk about any other project) that works more or less
> out of the box and (2) support the lazy developer - Pete's words - by
> shipping as many required libraries as possible.
I wouldn't call someone who simply wants to fix one bug in Ant without
having to download a bazillion .jar files from all over the place "lazy."
> OK, here is my proposal: Include the JARs in the nightly builds but
> leave the out of the repository. Downloading a nightly build is even
> easier than building from CVS and it is a lot less work, so both
> points should have been addressed.
Ok, so *where* do those .jar files come from?
> (1) What you have proposed (the CJAN idea, right?) has some connection
> to Ant, but I personally see it as something separate. I guess your
> proposal would have better been placed at general@jakarta or something
> similar. This is not really an Ant or even "Ant only" thing. You are
> not addressing the right community IMHO.
Actually, I think that this list is the perfect place for this. This list is
about our (the Jakarta Project's) primary build system. Given that a CJAN
would be integrated into Ant and the people who are interested in Ant are
also interested in build systems, I think this is the perfect place.
> (2) Conor said he liked the idea and was willing to help. Stating that
> "absolutely no one from the community has volunteered to step up" is
> wrong.
Ok, I haven't gotten one request to modify the .xml file that I placed up on
the Jakarta site. A statement of being willing to help is a hell of a lot
different than someone actually sending me a patch or code or whatever.
> (3) In my experience "there is no community to help support us when we
> need help" is plain wrong as a general statement - at least for the
> Ant community. For the CJAN case, see (1).
True. My point being that I would *hope* that someone would in fact step up.
> I know you are a very active guy, contributing to a lot of projects,
> but - don't get me wrong - you're not the only one being busy with
> other things.
True, but I also think that there must be at least 1 or 2 other people out
there who might be able to take some of their free time and devote it to
something like this.
> Remember we've been talking about Ant, we still are on ant-dev. I
> can't remember you committing any JAR at all and if the Turbine
> community decides they'd prefer to have the JAR in there CVS, fine.
I disagree that this is just about Ant. Think bigger picture here.
-jon
--
twice of not very much is still a lot more than not very much